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Zorcey

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I've started work on structuring my mixups more concretely, and I'm considering some different ideas about data collection. For example, my current strategy when poking an opponent with Dtilt for the first time is to dash back and take note of how they respond. Once I have an idea of how they react to the threat of the poke and the poke itself, I become more aggressive by approaching out of it, covering options I noticed they took previously.

However, I'm considering the possibility of approaching out of my Dtilts right from the start of a match, taking the risk of a mixup based more on meta tendencies than player-specific ones at first. I figure that best-case I get a strong opening conversion, and worst-case, while I may get punished for losing the position, I get psychological leverage because my opponent will be incentivized to choose the same option again because of their previous success. It's becoming increasingly common to cover Marth's dash back, so I think it has to be used much more sparingly, and this seems like a possibly strong alternative. But it could also be that approaching before you get player information is playing Marth's hand poorly, so I'm debating.

Overall, my question is what you think about the viability of approaching on meta-based information rather than player-based, and collecting data COMMITTALY instead of noncommittaly.

(I also wonder about its viability versus top players, who understand positions well enough that one victory won't easily tempt them to pick the same option more than maybe once or twice in a row.)
 

Dr Peepee

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Yes this is indeed a good question. I think I wouldn't want to suggest people start trying to cover singular options with approaching Nair or Fsmash that carry such risk, but in this situation there is not so much risk in pursuing counter-meta options in advance. You're also dashing forward, which could help you to intercept people who want to chase down your back dash as well, meaning it isn't inherently going to body you if you've worked out the reactions there. You can also choose a middle ground as well which is to Dtilt and wait or to jump and then drift/FF/aerial accordingly.

And let's consider something else: what if you dash in here, but back after aerials? Would that affect the opponent overall? Now you're not sending a consistent generalized message.

This being said, I think that it's really fine to experiment here. One person may be more comfortable doing things one way or another. Having preferences is fine, but being able to change your game up, in addition to knowing the position deeply, is most important.

Top players are more likely to adapt the less you mentally tax them. So in the end it will come down to how well you play neutral and punish them to determine how well they adapt to an extent. So focusing on playing your best and executing it will just inherently help you against them.
 

AirFair

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I have some questions about the way I fight fox's platform use and fh, just to kind of clarify about the types of options I should be using.

I have a problem where I spam pivot grab out of my dash back when I see fox fh or platform sh near me/at me, and I feel like I try to cover the immediate aerial like that because I'm afraid that I won't be able to if I look for his other options (like dj or drift back) that beat the pivot grab attempt. This makes me less confident about fighting these things in general. I understand that you cannot fully beat every option that fox has from the platform/fh without a read, and that I'm aiming to cover likely options and confirm others.

To use an example from a set I played:
https://youtu.be/-67Jv4PJbHk?t=1m36s
-This is the first occurence of this position, and the fox does a running sh nair at me, and I dash under him towards the platform. I don't think I would have gotten hit if I had dashed back to pivot grab the nair.

https://youtu.be/-67Jv4PJbHk?t=1m42s
-Same position not long after the first one, on the other side of battlefield. This time fox slightly drifts in, probably to cover me coming in, and I try to rising fair him running but he ends up jumping over it so it misses. Looking at it in analysis, I think dashing back would have been better to use, and if he did the drift in like he does here, would I just sh out of my dash back towards his landing? I'm wondering if I can cover both the full drift aerial and the pullback.

https://youtu.be/-67Jv4PJbHk?t=4m22s
-This has two seperate occurences where I try to punish fox fh and mess up. The first one idk why I tried to rising fair after he landed from his dj, I probably should have done an sh to drift in or just dashed in towards him. The next one he does oos I try and pivot grab when he does a dj right before he lands, tricking me visually plus me just spamming pivot grab. Maybe I should have faired, or waited after the second jump, since he might have been able to jump over the fair, but at that point I would have missed the punish on him landing instead of doing a dj (hope that made sense)

https://youtu.be/-67Jv4PJbHk?t=4m55s
-Here I beat him for pulling back his sh from the platform by hitting him with rising fair. This would have lost to any dj he did though. I think in this interaction though I covered the right option, since in that same situation he would do that kind of sh from the platform when I moved in, yet I committed super hard to do, since I got shined after doing that since he was at a lower percent.

https://youtu.be/-67Jv4PJbHk?t=5m58s
-This one is kind of interesting to look over again. I start in shield, so I do an sh, which may have been me trying to threaten the top platform, but I probably could have done a wd to get out and then move to a better spot under the top platform. He comes down from the top platform and I think I should have drifted towards him and then I could dj and hit him for using his dj to get over me and land with a bair. While I dashed away from his dj, I think I could have maybe dashed in more and rising faired to beat his bair landing.

https://youtu.be/-67Jv4PJbHk?t=6m4s
-I got mixed up by his dj and got owned =( if I had waited longer off the first dash back, would it have been possible to react to the dj with an fh uair?
 

Dr Peepee

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I think Fox drifted back some there, but if you look at your starting positions and test it it's very likely you could have pivot grabbed that Nair from platform. It's heavily discouraged at higher levels since you have more time to react.

This is funny because if he Nair'd you would have hit him lol. You were also too early since he didn't aerial, as you would have been able to hit this Fair anyway if you waited slightly longer. Uair might have been favorable here instead, especially with this timing. If you did dash back at the same timing, you could probably react to his early pullback early and move in quickly to challenge his landing, but I doubt you'd be able to directly hit him or anything then. Other options include SH and wait(so either mid/delayed Fair/Uair or DJ Fair if lower, or empty land mixup I guess) or a FH play.

Many people like reversing the situation asap to get pressure off of them, which is why you Fair'd. Rolls are long and this can be useful, so use this time to watch your opponent and accept getting hit as a possibility. His second DJ was really good in that situation. Since you're under a platform you can skew more toward Fair safely though since Fox would have to fall through the platform or land on it to hit you unless he spaces Bair super hard in some positions. Even grabbing isn't so bad if you're a bit farther under it so you can't be hit so easily out of lag. You can also space Dtilt to hit his landing and he'd have a hard time drifting in to hit you, even if that isn't really possible in this specific situation. So here, you're looking at either waiting/positioning for him landing and pressuring + hitting his DJ(so stuff like continuous DD or dash back dash in WD down so you can Dtilt or attack the DJ with dash FH Fair, etc) OR you're looking for the straight FH punish. The regular FH punish you can do with pivot grab like you did here, or you can set up Fair to try and hit landing or late DJs like you have here. You'd either need to dash back later or SH kinda early to make this work in comparison to the timings you used here. It would make Fox less likely to delayed DJ obviously so you'd have to play around with timings to try and cover different "real" possibilities then. You can probably take it from here.

He didn't do a move and you aerialed late, so you could have actually reacted out of SH if he did DJ away with this timing. However it might be the case that you committed to the SH kind of late/decided you'd Fair in advance, which would mean you'd lose to DJ then. I suggest practicing this situation and trying to win it in a way that gives you a bigger punish or at least advantage. So tipper Fair/Uair or grab OR hitting them/their shield on landing for SH and then mixing that with ways to cover FH with strong conversions at lower percent too. Might be a better way to suggest progress here.

Okay so you could have actually dashed back under him after confirming he was going to commit so hard with drift in FH and then tried to either react and grab his landing or attack the DJ. FH Uair the DJ doesn't give a big punish at his percent so I don't recommend it. You could also have kept moving away then WD'd to keep moving away and give you dash control back, or even Bair'd and drifted away to get some damage and move him away and stay safe from DJ. Mayyybe a pivot Fair would be okay but I don't think so in this exact situation, though similar ones that could work. It doesn't look like he can hit you directly out of the FH but if you wait here and he lands then he can probably jab or SH Nair you and it'd be hard to get a move out first, so maybe a delayed(end of dash) retreating pivot Fair or pivot SH backward if you think he might DJ or not come in right away are also decent calls. But yeah this is hard to deal with since you're dashing away and he does such a good FH + DJ here, so I think playing around with these options and seeing what feels good is very worthwhile.
 

Kotastic

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Regarding the sheik mu, how can I reliably beat sheik's rising fair other than dtilt? I often find that when I try to approaching fair it, sheik's fair somehow beats out mine. My only resort when I'm moving to beat sheik's fair is fsmash, but that's somewhat risky. Options?

Also, just recently I fought against a sheik and lost, and part of the reason was that he got me with at least 5 stack of full needles per game, and it's kinda tilting to see the sheik player basically getting 17% for free. I'm not sure how to best deal with Sheik needles tbh especially when it's fully charged without me being predictable.

I'm also lost on how to reliably edgeguard Sheik. I find that if the Sheik is really focusing on reacting whatever I do on the ledge, they get back almost every time. I find that I have to absolutely outplay them hard if they're near ledge and they have their DJ, otherwise they're probably making it back safely. Even if I sufficiently hog ledge, they have myriads of survival options when they're barely landing on stage which I find up air is the only viable option to at least have some sort of advantageous position but other characters would've killed sheik at that point. Zain vs Plup at CEO Game 5 is the epitome of me trying to edgeguard sheik, and that many times it ends up getting me killed when the sheik should've died.

Maybe I should clear the drawing board and start simple. Thoughts?
 
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Dr Peepee

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Her rising Fair? Like her early one? That one you can grab fairly reliably unless she's pretty spaced/you react late I'm pretty sure. Maybe when you Fair you're too close because I don't think your Fair should lose. Sounds like something worth labbing out so you can be totally confident in it. I know for sure that if your sword tip hits her hand you'll be fine, but it might be the case that she's hitting your hand before your sword gets to her or something.

I just ignore needles myself since I don't want to be controlled by Sheik and think about how I'll get more percent when I grab vs when she needles. If you want to specifically dodge them then you'll need a decent OOS mixup game, using platforms and/or FH to help you get around them I'd imagine. Were there any specific needle situations you struggled with?

Looked at Zain Plup and it seemed like a pretty straightforward loop he failed. Alternatively, he could have gone out there with dash FH Fair or SH back Bair or DJ Bair to force Plup away and get a kill which I tend to prefer. You're probably just opting to hang on the edge too much, but if you want to go through some specifics that'd be fine with me.

Being simple is always good.
 

Kotastic

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Alright, perhaps I should lab the variations of sheik's fair and see what beats it. What do you think of nair vs sheik's fair? I often see M2K go for this.

Either in PS transformations or respawn situations where the sheik just runs to the other side and camps needles, greater than rc dtilt distance, forcing me to do something because there's nothing but needles ahead. It's even worse if the Sheik does it from center if she is somehow in that position. Although, I like your suggestion to think that simply grab would net me more than needles if I do things properly, I'll probably just think that way.

ah yeah, I didn't think about going out there and force a DJ if I'm rinse and repeating like that. I always feel like I have to hang on edge because I swear every time I waveland on stage they somehow react and grab the ledge instead, though I may be giving up ledge too soon. Though, there's times where I swear it's not possible to waveland as late as possible or else sheik's poof will hit me if sheik chooses to recover close to stage. I'm not sure how else to explain this better, so ask for clarification and I'll try replicating it with some footage.
 

Dr Peepee

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I kept trying Nair for a while, but it only works if she runs into the second hit. If you try to hit with the first hit, she's just slightly too high up in her SH which super annoys me. It works out just often enough for people to keep trying it but I don't think it's reliable at all. If you want to space Nair to hit her outstretched hand/landing that's alright though.

Yeah if you play the super long range game that's all Sheik. Just run up on her and then she's either gotta throw and risk getting bodied or put them away. You can experiment with what works for you.

You can also just runoff/SH off and Fair which works at a lot of close spacings.
As for her poof, you can either fake grabbing edge with edgehops and ambiguously drift so you land on stage or not, or even use haxdash to mix them up. You can also turn around by the edge and either WD to it last second or stay onstage for an easy punish setup. Just some stuff to play with if you don't want to do things the regular way, which as you said can occasionally be unreliable.
 

AirFair

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I'm definitely going to work more sh into my game vs fox on platforms/using fh, since I think right now I'm staying on the ground maybe too much.

On another note, what you said about fh uair not giving a good punish at lower percent made me realize that I don't really look at percents much during matches at all, since I usually check them when I get a grab so I can pick the appropriate followup. I also don't really think about staling much, which can affect when a hit will knock the opponent down and they have to tech. Because of this, it didn't really occur to me that I wouldn't get a good followup until you said that lol

How would I factor percents like this into my decision making in game? I don't consciously check what percent my opponent is at in matches until I get a grab or I have them in a juggle/edgeguard situation to decide on followups. It's tough for me because depending on staling the percent I want to get a hit at could be slightly different for a knockdown out of neutral. For cc, I have rough numbers in my head for the common characters that I play for marth's aerials (which I think all have the same knockback since they all deal the same amount of % according to smashwiki) but I could maybe be applying that knowledge better too.

Also, I went and tested when tipper uair will send fox and falco into tumble (knockdown) and checked both unstaled and fully staled, and I figured I would share it here

Unstaled:
Fox gets knocked down at 20%
Falco gets knocked down at 21%
Fully staled:
Fox gets knocked down at 26%
Falco gets knocked down at 27%
 
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Dr Peepee

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I believe ikneedata can help get some data faster for you.

That said, I think some of it will be experimental but will lead into some rules. Tipper Uair/Fair(mid or late) are what you want to hit with at low and mid percent and then switch to weak at higher mid to high percent. And of course if an opponent is higher up in a positional sense, then you need to think about how you can hit moves in a way that help you convert, which is also relatively straightforward to test at various percent ranges.

Thinking about this can actually be helpful so you know roughly how you want to win neutral when approaching a position. If you can't find a way to get a good opening, then you either force a new situation or you know to play for damage and maybe also position. This type of thinking helps you focus more on getting them into good positions instead of just hoping things work out and you get a lucky tipper.
 

AirFair

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Oh shoot I think I messed something up with the unstaled stuff. I'll have to try messing with ikneedata some since I'm not used to this kind of testing lol
at the very least I'll edit the above post with the right numbers so it's there.

I'll definitely have to do some thinking about that stuff but I think I will have to work in looking at my opponents percent some when playing, maybe when waiting or stalling. I'm just a bit afraid it will take attention away from me playing neutral

edit: Kotastic Kotastic I'm pretty sure the numbers I have now are correct
 
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Socrates

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Do you have any experience against Zelda? I know she’s an objectively bad character but she’s one of the only characters other than puff that I’m afraid to challenge in the air because of how much range she has. I honestly can’t tell if I’m mis-spacing or if her moves just straight up out range mine.
 

Dr Peepee

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I don't remember if you strictly outrange her kick or not anymore. You can hit her before or after her kick though, and if she ever drifts in with it you can of course dash JC grab the landing. Probably something a quick test can settle for you if you need more clarity I'd imagine.
 

Kotastic

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PP, how do you deal with practicing by yourself? I realize that I was really privileged to have constant access to friendlies in my college and credit it to be a huge source of my improvement curve, as well as attending at least 2 locals a week. Now, I don't exactly have access to those friendlies anymore nor can I properly netplay, so I'm left largely by myself for the next couple months. As I attended some locals recently, I feel like currently compared to my previous achievements and how I feel about my skill level, I'm at a downswing and it's rather frustrating and demoralizing. I'm still gonna push through no matter what, but I am having issues motivating myself to really rigorously practice every day. I honestly don't feel like match analyses help that much and are certainly no replacement for friendlies, or at least the way how I'm doing it. Solo practice currently isn't really cutting it for me.

This is like the first time where I feel like I'm plateauing, in a sense that before I always felt like I was progressing despite some of my results not showing that. This time, I feel like I'm regressing because I do know the answer to situations, but for some reason I don't do it if that makes sense. I fall into old traps that I clearly know the answer to and get punished for it. Being slightly off with my juggles or corner game and getting punished for it is rather demoralizing. Tips?
 
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Dr Peepee

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Hmm well when I think of improvement, I think of practice, analysis, and friendlies in a sort of triangle. I like analysis and practice as they give me ideas and build motions that I can use in friendlies to see how it all applies before tourney. So if you can't play friendlies, that does definitely make things more difficult. On the plus side, it can mean that when you do play at locals that you'll have plenty you want to try as you play. As long as you mostly go hard and mix in testing, then this can be fine.

There was a period of time where Twitch wouldn't play me and I could only practice and analyze and discuss the game with others. I built up a large amount of ideas and played the game in my head during this time. I just loved playing so much that this solution was natural and helped maintain my skill. Maybe this story is a little useful to you.

I think you may have an opportunity to deepen your relationship with the game and/or find new ideas with practice right now. But to be sure I'd need to know how you practice. What do you do, for how long, and how do you feel while doing it?
 

Kotastic

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My practice schedule is for roughly 10 minutes is wavedashing, thinking about my movement, wavelanding, and practicing ledge tricks.

Then for roughly 20 minutes, I beat up Fox on BF just to get a feel of my combo game. I then spend another 20-30 minutes chaingrabbing Fox and Falco as well as pivot grabbing them while having them shine asap. I spend 10 more minutes reacting to their side-B sounds with fsmash, fair, jab, etc with 20xx replays.

Then after that, I practice some specific stuff like wall tech bair and SDI'ing Fox's up air for like 10 minutes. Then I simulate scenarios I'm unfamiliar with and try to set it up with 20xx replays for however long. Sometimes I do match analysis afterwards.

For the most part, I would be consistent with this kind of schedule because I would put this to the test in friendlies in college and locals. Now, I struggle to maintain this schedule after just beating up Fox because I just dont have much opportunities to fight someone in a convenient avenue. I do think there's probably more things I can do, and I'm looking to see how I can make my solo practice more meaningful and motivating to look forward to.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Perhaps you'd be interested in practicing more movement strings such as dash WDs or WD Dtilts to reduce lag, or dash WD Dtilts to reduce lag and think of where you can react to the opponent. SHFFLs would also be good since they have so many parts that you can play with. Additionally you may find practicing stage specific tech important, such as how to edgecancel from a FH forward in a given position, or how far a drift in Fair will go which can help with cornering or even punishing sometimes.

Maybe for punish you can practice some puff and peach throw tippers? What about punishing spacies on different stages?

How does this sound? If you want we can probably find other solutions using 20XX/other theories so I'm sure you will find something engaging if you keep at it.
 

Kotastic

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What do you mean that WD dtilt reduce lag? To you, what exactly does dash WD accomplish? I could just go ahead and do it, but I'm not sure what dash WD exactly does aside from being harder to hit I guess. I'm also not sure what you mean by SHFFL's importance, as I only see it as a necessity to continue combo strings. Yeah, I should probably be mixing up my stage practice instead of always practicing on BF. I think the drift in fair is a good idea and will definitely implement that.

I can definitely see the pivot fsmash part for puff, but I don't think it's as practical for Peach? Again yeah, I should probably be practicing on stages other than BF/FD.

I think a lot of your suggestions are great, but do you perhaps have ideas on how to practice juggling floaties? I feel like a lot of my rust is that without friendlies, my juggling skills are degrading and this especially shows when I fight against floaties in tournaments where I get frustrated because I do know the answer to a lot of situations but I just miss them with late reflexes or responses.
 

Dr Peepee

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Just to reduce frames between the WD and the Dtilt, and perhaps a movement afterward if you'd like. It builds on the original WD practice. Dash WD extends the WD threat range and of course you can do this out of different dash lengths, which could give you some more depth in your DD. Dash WD can also include WD back. SHFFL is also used to zone or to pressure, so playing with timings and spacings there would be quite useful I would think.

Yeah it's not as practical for Peach, but the situation being rare doesn't mean it wouldn't still be useful.

Hmm juggling practice? I don't think I did that much. When I did, it was usually stuff like practicing covering typical falling routes and options I'd see opponents do and mixing it up like neutral practice. So I'd sometimes SH falling Uair, sometimes DJ aerial, sometimes land and then dash FH aerial, sometimes dash and fake and then get a DD grab if they responded, etc. Maybe this could be good still if you're not sure about all of the possible opponent falling routes.
 

Kotastic

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Oh yeah, one thing I seriously don't like about WD dtilt nowadays in today's meta is the constant use of crouch cancelling. Imo with how often it's used by pretty much everyone that's decent, even just asdi down near-invalidates WD dtilt unless I'm somehow super precise and read their exact position. I've been handling this with simply standing/slight walk dtilt to work around this and mixing that up with a dash back or occasionally run up grab, so I do have answers but it doesn't involve movement. In today's meta though, I don't see how the WD range really helps Marth that much in matchups where CC is abused.
 
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AirFair

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played in a big local tournament yesterday and got the chance to play some really strong players. Now that I'm home and looking at the twitch vod, the first thing I want to look more at is this falco player whose lasers I couldn't really beat well.

some clip examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/TenuousSilkyGoosePRChase
-I got into about take laser jab range, and I was jabbing him some before, but all that would make him do is back up some and shoot lasers like these that I couldn't reach with my sword in time. This makes me wonder how I can punish him after discouraging laser approaches.

https://clips.twitch.tv/FunVainPheasantNotATK
-tried some dash back powershielding but I didn't like how I was turned away from falco, plus I didn't really land them there.

My first thoughts on how to deal with his fast shooting in place were maybe pushing in slightly in between lasers to see if I could get him to attack, but some more direct answers I could use involve using PS or dash attack.
 
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maclo4

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Oh yeah, one thing I seriously don't like about WD dtilt nowadays in today's meta is the constant use of crouch cancelling. Imo with how often it's used by pretty much everyone that's decent, even just asdi down near-invalidates WD dtilt unless I'm somehow super precise and read their exact position. I've been handling this with simply standing/slight walk dtilt to work around this and mixing that up with a dash back or occasionally run up grab, so I do have answers but it doesn't involve movement. In today's meta though, I don't see how the WD range really helps Marth that much in matchups where CC is abused.
I'm interested that you think asdi invalidates WD dtilt. Imo I don't agree but im curious what you have to say. Maybe if you only include wd forward dtilt, but even then theres ways to make your dtilt safer. Overshooting comes to mind as the most dangerous spacing for dtilt, but if you do it a little shallow its more likely to either be well spaced or you'll be far enough away that its hard to punish. Also "WD dtilt" includes in place, backwards, and all the in between non-full length WD's out there. In place is super helpful for me to get precise spacing out of dash.

Different note, but I find it really hard to deal with WD back oos when Im doing shield pressure. Do any of you have ideas for how to beat this?
 

Dr Peepee

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Oh yeah, one thing I seriously don't like about WD dtilt nowadays in today's meta is the constant use of crouch cancelling. Imo with how often it's used by pretty much everyone that's decent, even just asdi down near-invalidates WD dtilt unless I'm somehow super precise and read their exact position. I've been handling this with simply standing/slight walk dtilt to work around this and mixing that up with a dash back or occasionally run up grab, so I do have answers but it doesn't involve movement. In today's meta though, I don't see how the WD range really helps Marth that much in matchups where CC is abused.
If you're walking then I would definitely recommend not doing WD. You are too close then. WD is often more for farther distances. That being said you can change the WD range some to make it more effective, but yes you pretty much always want to be tippering Dtilt to avoid holding down. I'm not sure how good weak/close Dtilt can be in some instances where they don't get knocked down, but certainly at very low percents it's not worth messing with. The point of the WD is to extend your dash threat range to allow you to dash without having to attack and getting stage/conditioning for free

played in a big local tournament yesterday and got the chance to play some really strong players. Now that I'm home and looking at the twitch vod, the first thing I want to look more at is this falco player whose lasers I couldn't really beat well.

some clip examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/TenuousSilkyGoosePRChase
-I got into about take laser jab range, and I was jabbing him some before, but all that would make him do is back up some and shoot lasers like these that I couldn't reach with my sword in time. This makes me wonder how I can punish him after discouraging laser approaches.

https://clips.twitch.tv/FunVainPheasantNotATK
-tried some dash back powershielding but I didn't like how I was turned away from falco, plus I didn't really land them there.

My first thoughts on how to deal with his fast shooting in place were maybe pushing in slightly in between lasers to see if I could get him to attack, but some more direct answers I could use involve using PS or dash attack.
Yeah if he looks content to spam you, then dash attack becomes a good option since he wasn't consistently shooting low enough to stop it. Dash back PS or ZPS should also interrupt him pretty well too. You may also try some AC Nair over them, as I've seen Falcos complaining about it and it looks okay sparingly from the bit I've looked into it. The dash back PS is fairly easy to consistently get so I'd say practice it a little more to get it down.

For the second clip you did take laser jab him but then moved away too far after your lightshield came up. I assume you tried to grab? I don't think you can normally grab or dash grab safely there so maybe go for outranging/waiting a little more in those situations.

And yes when you pushed in he would attack, so that can work fine as well.

Different note, but I find it really hard to deal with WD back oos when Im doing shield pressure. Do any of you have ideas for how to beat this?
It's not something you can always cover, and I think it's fine to let it happen a fair amount. Them giving up space means they will have an even harder time avoiding sword and that's only an advantage for you. If it's a spacie who has less range OOS for example you can get close enough to grab or almost grab and threaten their WD OOS and other OOS options pretty strongly with Dtilt then and it becomes a pretty good mixup. Occasionally you can manipulate them to move OOS by getting close then backing off and you can Fsmash or whatever you'd like to do to hit them. Not that necessary though since again them WD'ing OOS isn't great for them, so learning those next easier positions becomes really helpful then.
 

Kotastic

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maclo4 maclo4 you can see plup doing this to marths where he tends to CC ftilt. It's possible for him to grab at times too which many Sheiks in my region tend to do.

The thing that discourages me to do WD dtilt within that range is that Sheik tends to ram at me and crouch, making it kind of hard to precisely getting the tipper dtilt which is why I've been opting to do walk dtilt to take space safely and beat a lot of approaching CC methods. Although, perhaps I could still represent the forward threat by replacing dtilt with grab to accomplish the same thing but less range.
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah if Sheiks are running in then no need to WD, unless they run in in response to WD. You may also find more aerial zoning to be useful to discourage them running in if you'd prefer to do that/find more variety.
 
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So lately Ive been really struggling against Falco in neutral. I can't ever seem to find an opening because I keep getting shot by lasers, and if Im not moving I find myself in shield trying to wd oos and getting punished for it 100% of the time, but i really dont know what to do in either neutral or getting out of shield pressure. I dash through lasers and use PS as best as I can, but somehow Im always eating a dair and getting combo'd. I also try and take a laser while airborn and fairing out or just ac nairing over. I feel so lost against falco LOL. And then when it comes to being pressured in shield I reaaaallly panic, so I often forget to try aerials oos, but for the most part I try and use wd or buffer roll. Sorry its a lot but Im feelin hella lost. I appreciate any advice!
 

quixotic

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https://youtu.be/RbrUFap-zno?t=21m10s

After kjh's bair, you chase with rc dtilt presumably because dashing back into center is a strong option.
Going frame by frame it looks like you both start dashing to the left at the same frame.

If kjh did the bair in center stage, making uptilt/spotdodge/full hop more likely options, how would you change your dash timings to account for these options? Or would something like rising fair/ run shield/ short hop/retreat work out of the same dash timings(where you are dashing left at this same spacing exactly when fox gets out of lag)?
 
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Zorcey

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I’m doing meditations and trying to simulate the environment of a tournament to train my feelings and mentality, like we talked about awhile back. But I’m having trouble reframing my state into something positive, because I’ve found that excitement - what I’ve tried until now - just hasn’t worked for making my play strong when it counts. I’ve been applying a lot of the mentality stuff we’ve discussed on the boards to my musical performances as well, and some of it has helped me a lot, and some of it hasn’t (either because it doesn’t work for me, or I haven’t spent enough time trying it, I suppose). Reframing nervousness into excitement has been one of the latter. I’ve also found anger to be consistent at making me play well, which is concerning because it’s become very alluring as a result. I know you’ve warned me about the unruly nature of anger before, and I believe you, but I’m in a rough position because I can’t think of much else and don’t have very much faith in excitement anymore.

What I’ve been trying to do is reframe the physical symptoms (stomach butterflies, foggy head, worsened coordination/awareness) I experience into something comprehensible, but controllable. I don’t feel like many states of mind fit both these things, and my top alternatives - relaxation and anger - contradict one or the other of the above conditions. Relaxation feels like suppression (but maybe that’s okay with appropriate training?), and I’ve discussed anger above. Any advice, or even discussing how you came to excitement as your choice of feeling for tournaments would be helpful.

Edit: Just read through the recent posts. Kotastic Kotastic two great pieces of advice a music instructor gave me once were, “never practice by the clock; set goals for your session, and you’re done when you’ve accomplished them,” and “practice should never feel easy - it should always challenge you.” These have been great mentality changes for me, because they help me to always stay on productive work, and resist falling into mindless repetition and feeling like I’m not accomplishing anything. Maybe you or anyone else thinking about practice would find these useful too.
 
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Dr Peepee

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So lately Ive been really struggling against Falco in neutral. I can't ever seem to find an opening because I keep getting shot by lasers, and if Im not moving I find myself in shield trying to wd oos and getting punished for it 100% of the time, but i really dont know what to do in either neutral or getting out of shield pressure. I dash through lasers and use PS as best as I can, but somehow Im always eating a dair and getting combo'd. I also try and take a laser while airborn and fairing out or just ac nairing over. I feel so lost against falco LOL. And then when it comes to being pressured in shield I reaaaallly panic, so I often forget to try aerials oos, but for the most part I try and use wd or buffer roll. Sorry its a lot but Im feelin hella lost. I appreciate any advice!
First of all, you want to slow Falco down. Learn the range where take laser jab and take laser dash back stuff his approaches and start getting into those ranges in matches. Once you slow him down or force him to spam in place, you can set up PS easier or DA under lasers or AC Nair over them more easily. Don't just shoot for PS unless you practiced it(especially the crouch/dash back ones) because otherwise you just get stuck in shield and that's no good.

For pressure....yeah it's bad lol. Shield DI away helps you get grabs/aerials/WDs OOS and so does partial lightshielding. Don't be afraid to get pushed offstage and grab the edge, since you need to learn to fight there too and it's better than getting hit just to avoid it.

See if any of that helps you out. I know it's wonky but if you break it down and don't fear lasers and realize they minimally stun it can help a lot.

https://youtu.be/RbrUFap-zno?t=21m10s

After kjh's bair, you chase with rc dtilt presumably because dashing back into center is a strong option.
Going frame by frame it looks like you both start dashing to the left at the same frame.

If kjh did the bair in center stage, making uptilt/spotdodge/full hop more likely options, how would you change your dash timings to account for these options? Or would something like rising fair/ run shield/ short hop/retreat work out of the same dash timings(where you are dashing left at this same spacing exactly when fox gets out of lag)?
Well if I'm dashing back/reacting better there it's different than if I was standing still, because I should be able to get a grab on that drift in Bair. Like why am I running in close as he's drifting in to me? Lol not a good look.

Anyway, let's assume I had the off timing I had here. That means I can't directly punish the options you listed before they come out besides FH without a read probably. I'd like to do run up SH in place just outside of Utilt range so I can hit his jump or pressure his shield and be safe vs holding down too. I could also just stall out my movement or waveland down or empty land out of SH so I could grab some lag he puts himself into here waiting out my actions.

I’m doing meditations and trying to simulate the environment of a tournament to train my feelings and mentality, like we talked about awhile back. But I’m having trouble reframing my state into something positive, because I’ve found that excitement - what I’ve tried until now - just hasn’t worked for making my play strong when it counts. I’ve been applying a lot of the mentality stuff we’ve discussed on the boards to my musical performances as well, and some of it has helped me a lot, and some of it hasn’t (either because it doesn’t work for me, or I haven’t spent enough time trying it, I suppose). Reframing nervousness into excitement has been one of the latter. I’ve also found anger to be consistent at making me play well, which is concerning because it’s become very alluring as a result. I know you’ve warned me about the unruly nature of anger before, and I believe you, but I’m in a rough position because I can’t think of much else and don’t have very much faith in excitement anymore.

What I’ve been trying to do is reframe the physical symptoms (stomach butterflies, foggy head, worsened coordination/awareness) I experience into something comprehensible, but controllable. I don’t feel like many states of mind fit both these things, and my top alternatives - relaxation and anger - contradict one or the other of the above conditions. Relaxation feels like suppression (but maybe that’s okay with appropriate training?), and I’ve discussed anger above. Any advice, or even discussing how you came to excitement as your choice of feeling for tournaments would be helpful.

Edit: Just read through the recent posts. Kotastic Kotastic two great pieces of advice a music instructor gave me once were, “never practice by the clock; set goals for your session, and you’re done when you’ve accomplished them,” and “practice should never feel easy - it should always challenge you.” These have been great mentality changes for me, because they help me to always stay on productive work, and resist falling into mindless repetition and feeling like I’m not accomplishing anything. Maybe you or anyone else thinking about practice would find these useful too.
Well let's look at anger and excitement and why they work so well. Part of it is because they elevate your senses. You see better and hear better, have a faster heartbeat, and so on when experiencing them. This is important because these types of physical boosts help you play your best. Another reason these work is because they are emotional. That means there is something meaningful going on and you have increased motivation to achieve it. Anger does this by having you think there is some injustice that must be solved, and excitement does this by having you think of how much fun the matches will be/how good the opponent will push you to play/etc. So far, we know you are right to want to choose anger over excitement because it is tapping into your feelings better to get you to that elevated state consistently. If you found a way to do that with excitement then you would probably discard anger at that point, or at least use it less.

So, how do you connect those exciting motivations to Melee better than those angering ones? Well that is ideally what the mental exercises will help you do. That seems to have failed though. My next idea is to have you consider approaching this from two angles as I did. I went deep into my own psyche and began removing psychological blockages that related to my parents and other important people in my life. I used a few different books for this, one of which is called "the six pillars of self-esteem" and its companion "the psychology of romantic love." Maybe you can see if either interest you. I also found "unlimited power" to be quite useful as well.
For the physical side, I am unaware of your current conditioning here but just running daily seemed to be sufficient to get me into a positive state more consistently. Maybe this is a route for you to consider as well, or at least yoga or some breathwork I can recommend if you'd like. Food is also a consideration that I have more recently found to be useful for keeping the body in a good state, but common sense guidelines may prove more useful than trying to recommend lots of things here.

How do you feel about this?
 

Zorcey

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So the idea would be to try a twofold approach of drawing the connections, and removing blockages as well. This makes sense, but why should I expect that psychological blockages are the reason I find genuine excitement difficult to achieve? Because if the exercises aren’t working, there must be issues in my subconscious that impede me from building the connections I need? That sounds plausible.

In any case, I’ll look into these books, and work on delving into my psyche as well. I’ve already done some work at the latter, and I’ve found very helpful. If you don’t mind my asking, how did you go about looking into yourself? Was it something you did in the midst of a meditation, or by writing things down or something?

My current physical condition is good and I get frequent exercise, but diet is something I could do much better with. You’re right though, I just need to use common sense and begin disciplining myself more.
 

Dr Peepee

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Well it was a necessity for me as I was very depressed at two separate points in my life. I wanted to understand my feelings so I didn't have to feel that way anymore. The second time, which is where the first set of books come from, I managed to go deeper into my psychological state and draw upon more connecting ideas. Early life, blockages, manifestations in the body, etc were all things I learned then. I also learned more about meditation in this time, so I did use that as well. A lot of the deeper time was through meditation as well as sentence completions, which are in the first set of books I suggest. Things like "if I wanted to be happy, I would-" and then I write down endings to this sentence as fast as possible so I can remove conscious blocks that are normally there. Then I can address the thoughts deeply in meditation and often using the paradigms I've learned in the books. Then I meditate again at the end of the day to see how I did and adjust as needed.

Does this sound helpful?
 

Zorcey

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This sounds very, very helpful. I’ve done a little bit of sentence completion work, but meditating on those and why I feel what I do, as well as what could prevent me from acting on my feelings isn’t something that occurred to me, but seems like an obvious next step now. I can use this as a framework for sure. So I’ll get those books, and in addition to reconditioning myself to feel how I want, I’ll also work to understand why I feel the way I do now, and reflect on the relationship between the two. All this seems like it should definitely open a clearer path to cultivating the emotional responses I want to have. I’ll keep you posted with other questions as always, but thanks PP.
 

StrawHatter

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Hey PP, I'm struggling to implement my movement in a more threatening way against Fox. I understand the theory in my head, but whenever I try and do it in a real game I will either mess it up or make a bad play instead. How do I make a conscious decision to try and be more threatening in game with my movement with Marth? Thanks!
 

Dr Peepee

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Here's something simple that may help. You are likely threatening grab, Fair, and Dtilt with your movement forward. Sometimes do those actions, and sometimes back off with dash, WD, or SH backward to see how they would have responded. Then you can use that information during your next dash in and beat that option/those options. You can also practice doing these basic things, so you end up using it in matches and not just doing a bunch of dashes that don't help too much. Keep it simple.
 
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