Important Carefully Ask EG.PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Zorcey

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This can depend a lot based on how you hit them, percent, and where they end up after being hit(as well as your own position). If you have a specific situation or some that would probably help. They can DJ but change their timing of their jump, fade at different times, FF at different times, attack or airdodge at different times. A lot of people currently like to DJ a little away from a platform then drift back to it at the last second and airdodge to it for example, so you'd want to be ready to cover that as you see the airdodge come out or pre-empt it if you want them to stay without a jump at a higher risk of them getting out.

In my opinion, you shouldn't need to read juggle options that often, but you should be setting yourself up for reactions and occasional reads pretty much every time. With Puff it can be a little different since she floats around more, but you should also be aware she's going to burn a couple jumps before acting pretty much every time so no need for any big reads every time there either.

It's hard to say too much more specifically without knowing where we want to go with this.
My overall struggle with juggling is I’m not sure how to position myself relative to the opponent - it’s easier in floaty mus because I apply your rule of generally staying diagonal and it helps a lot. Versus spacies I tend to stay directly below, and this kind of works, but their fall speed means if I don’t time a Fair/Uair properly they not only break out, but might reverse the situation on me.
https://youtu.be/QSnNhvqHyRo?t=1m45s when a spacie has a chance to DJ like this, I feel like I have to pick a direction early so my swing doesn’t fall short like m2k’s here. I feel like if he had gotten under Leffen instead, he wouldn’t have been able to slip past so easily, but idk.

I also have this problem with Sheik and Marth, but for those characters I don’t know whether right under or beside is better. This situation may illustrate it: https://youtu.be/hZ0jOxPcUcY?t=3m32s where should I go to catch Sheik when she comes down from high up, but can still mix up with DJ/airdodge?

Well let's begin with what's good. Your training was absolutely effective despite how hard you wanted to sabotage it, so that's really good! I don't mean to be rude with the comment either, that is genuinely not easy to do. You must have been working hard.

One other good thing: you tried and had the experience. That's great. You now know exactly what you're up against, and the first time is usually the worst if you're really strict about tackling the mental challenge.

Tension is your problem. When tense, we burn energy extremely rapidly and anyone will get tired regardless of training. Your tension will make things super hard for you, especially if you're like that before showing up. This tension will come from anxiety, which looks like it comes from worries about how good you will do, if you're deserving of doing well, and fear of failure. So I'd like for you to really ask yourself: what if you fail? But not just fail, fail spectacularly. You do the worst moves possible, you play on stream and everyone thinks you're terrible, people laugh at you in the venue, you name it. Really feel it and experience it. Will you survive it? Of course. If you're being honest, you'll feel really badly about it for a week or two but then you'll largely reset to normal. That's just how we are about most things. I'd know, given my health concerns lol. But I want you to imagine that worst experience instead of running from it. Anxiety gets its power from avoidance and when you confront it head on it loses that. You cannot block a block. If you let the feeling come in and see that you'll be okay, then you can let go when you begin to experience it. Now that you have this anxiety-inducing experience, you'd want to experience it in your head as much as possible to make sure it does not affect you like this anymore, aka exposure therapy. Please consider this route, as it was enormously helpful for me.

I lost energy in Melee for what I believe are two non-current reasons:

1. My physical conditioning(exercise/sleep mainly for me, but many people would put food here as well).

2. Anxiety/lack of love of what I was doing.

I think overcoming one helps drastically with the other, but taking out both should be a surefire shot to improve endurance in my experience, and it seems to be true when watching others as well. When I exercised, I always had a drastic focus/energy increase and felt fantastic so I could better handle the inevitable downs of playing and practicing. Sleep did similar things. Exercise sometimes takes longer to work for people as you have to build up endurance, but it pays dividends fairly quickly I believe. Mileage may vary depending on what you do and how much/long you do it for though. Anxiety leads to tension and basically a different form of respiration used by your cells which deplete your energy much faster than if you are healthfully alert, so this issue should absolutely not be undervalued. Alertness and excitement is welcome, but when you frame it as a problem it's much worse, to say it differently. I already addressed this above but I thought I'd add a little more context. Maybe this will be useful.
I didn’t realize prior that I really wanted some sort of validation from a source I respected (I’m not sure I like this, but I should certainly note it to myself), so this first part is helpful whereas that’s concerned. You’re definitely right about this unconscious sabotage - it’s probably evident in all my anxiety over the game - but I’m not sure why it’s there? It’s certainly not intuitive to understand.

This simulation idea sounds really strong for tackling my fear of failure, and I’m going to try this route - I’ll report back at some point with how I feel it effects my mentality.

For changing anxiety into healthy alertness, how do I go about this apart from the above? I can tell the difference between experiencing the two, but I haven’t been able to get a handle on obtaining alertness consistently. I know there are the lifestyle aspects - and feel I have a decent handle on those - but should I expect the rest to be taken care of by tackling anxiety?

Something else I've noticed these past few days is my play/practice suddenly feels extremely listless. There's no fire or energy in my play, and I can't say I feel like practicing. Tbh I expected the opposite would be the case after a tournament - especially after losing - and I don't know whether I should accept it and take a break or push through. (As it is I've been doing some situation study and that's all.) I still dislike the idea of not playing, but since I was already feeling burnout prior, pushing it worries me a bit. I want to want to play, but that's not the same thing as the actual desire. How do you handle this sort of thing?
 
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At what % range do you have to tech fthrow in Marth dittos ?

https://youtu.be/_Yc-VPEEepI?t=1209

https://youtu.be/_Yc-VPEEepI?t=1228 (the second fthrow)

In those scenarios Zain seems to get techchases on fthrow but ikneedata tells me that Marth is always actionnable before the ground no matter what %.
Getting techchases like this seems better than upthrowing tho
 
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Zorcey

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At what % range do you have to tech fthrow in Marth dittos ?

https://youtu.be/_Yc-VPEEepI?t=1209

https://youtu.be/_Yc-VPEEepI?t=1228 (the second fthrow)

In those scenarios Zain seems to get techchases on fthrow but ikneedata tells me that Marth is always actionnable before the ground no matter what %.
Getting techchases like this seems better than upthrowing tho
Well fthrow knocks Marth down starting at 7%, and from there if you don’t DI down+away you can jump out pretty much always (but fsmash can catch no DI/pivot fsmash can catch DI away alone before you can manage it) - maybe that’s what ikneedata is referring to? The techchase could be kinda useful if you throw them in the corner to set up Tipper Fsmash/Dsmash, but otherwise getting Marth above you is a more consistently favorable position, I think. That’s just my thoughts on this though.
 

Dr Peepee

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My overall struggle with juggling is I’m not sure how to position myself relative to the opponent - it’s easier in floaty mus because I apply your rule of generally staying diagonal and it helps a lot. Versus spacies I tend to stay directly below, and this kind of works, but their fall speed means if I don’t time a Fair/Uair properly they not only break out, but might reverse the situation on me.
https://youtu.be/QSnNhvqHyRo?t=1m45s when a spacie has a chance to DJ like this, I feel like I have to pick a direction early so my swing doesn’t fall short like m2k’s here. I feel like if he had gotten under Leffen instead, he wouldn’t have been able to slip past so easily, but idk.

I also have this problem with Sheik and Marth, but for those characters I don’t know whether right under or beside is better. This situation may illustrate it: https://youtu.be/hZ0jOxPcUcY?t=3m32s where should I go to catch Sheik when she comes down from high up, but can still mix up with DJ/airdodge?



I didn’t realize prior that I really wanted some sort of validation from a source I respected (I’m not sure I like this, but I should certainly note it to myself), so this first part is helpful whereas that’s concerned. You’re definitely right about this unconscious sabotage - it’s probably evident in all my anxiety over the game - but I’m not sure why it’s there? It’s certainly not intuitive to understand.

This simulation idea sounds really strong for tackling my fear of failure, and I’m going to try this route - I’ll report back at some point with how I feel it effects my mentality.

For changing anxiety into healthy alertness, how do I go about this apart from the above? I can tell the difference between experiencing the two, but I haven’t been able to get a handle on obtaining alertness consistently. I know there are the lifestyle aspects - and feel I have a decent handle on those - but should I expect the rest to be taken care of by tackling anxiety?

Something else I've noticed these past few days is my play/practice suddenly feels extremely listless. There's no fire or energy in my play, and I can't say I feel like practicing. Tbh I expected the opposite would be the case after a tournament - especially after losing - and I don't know whether I should accept it and take a break or push through. (As it is I've been doing some situation study and that's all.) I still dislike the idea of not playing, but since I was already feeling burnout prior, pushing it worries me a bit. I want to want to play, but that's not the same thing as the actual desire. How do you handle this sort of thing?
In that situation, M2K could have probably FF'd earlier, but also if he dashed and FH/DJ'd he'd have still hit/threatened Leffen. He did get under Leffen which is how he forced the DJ. In general, being under Fox is very okay but being under Falco is riskier due to Dair, though it can be worth it to get under him if you think he will jump/fade away which will give you a natural Fair spacing you want then.

Second situation, Marth should have delayed his DJ longer/started his initial jump later so he can hit/threaten Sheik right when she's about to land. For Sheik generally it's better to be under, and diagonal is always safest against Marth but in situations where he can drift and mix a lot then under gives the most utility, you just need to watch for Dair then.

A study has shown people can just reframe their anxiety as excitement and it works(less extreme cases, but it's still possible). This is because the nervous system activates similarly for both feelings, but your interpretation of it is what changes it. So you can just say you're getting hyped up because you're excited instead, and maybe also use your body in various ways to reinforce it, and that might yield some useful results. It has for others. Of course, getting to the root of your issues like with your mention of your desire for validation will be another way to make this easier in addition to other practices, so you will be attacking from multiple angles and making this more likely to succeed.

I would remain flexible in these times. Perhaps pushing yourself would be good to see how it feels. Maybe you need to push through the anxiety first. Maybe you should mess with another character, or reaffirm your goals and motivation to play. There are many routes you can take.



At what % range do you have to tech fthrow in Marth dittos ?

https://youtu.be/_Yc-VPEEepI?t=1209

https://youtu.be/_Yc-VPEEepI?t=1228 (the second fthrow)

In those scenarios Zain seems to get techchases on fthrow but ikneedata tells me that Marth is always actionnable before the ground no matter what %.
Getting techchases like this seems better than upthrowing tho
Pretty much what Zorcey said. Depends on DI, 7%, if they don't DI for tech chase they can get hit.
 

Kotastic

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Mmm....

This reminds me of Wobbles. He had his Evo performance when he decided to finally stop caring and then he was never able to really do that again. It's also written in esoteric eastern texts that one should be indifferent to results so as not to get attached to them and thereby bring out true art. For sure, this is one way to go I imagine.

I am not so sure it's sustainable though. I haven't had time to experiment with it enough, but from watching and a bit of my own experience it does seem like goals and desire to do well/love of the game is a more reliable pull, even if it's also difficult to consistently pull off. It does feel more common at least. Also, I have to be concerned with you doing this just after a stressful experience. You "not caring" may be just as much about trying to stuff your feelings down as it is to let go and enjoy the game.
I see. I only tried this mindset in the first place because I wanted to be more laid back, because it's ridiculous for me to have expectations when I haven't been actively practicing due to other things. It wasn't that I was stuffing down my feelings perse, but moreso focusing what really matters in the moment. I think I'll try integrating it some aspects of my old mentality regarding truly focusing on what really matters to me as well as having the intense will to win. I do love the game and how it allows me to self-express myself and self-develop, and I only want to focus on that and not let external pressures get in the way.
 

Kotastic

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Hey PP. I'm physically taking a short break from playing Melee until later Monday in which I plan to get back into the groove of playing. Out of curiosity, how long do you think is acceptable to not playing Melee and not losing much?

I've been doing a lot of match analysis which I've been sorely lacking for awhile. Got some questions in some of my weaker matchups:

Often, I find Marths to be pretty inefficient when it comes to combo'ing Falcon on BF/DL. I'm having doubts if up-throw really is the best option to do when Falcon can just DI in, slide-off DI, etc as opposed to corner tech chase. I find up-throwing spacies acceptable because there's a lot of mixups and comboing them to death flows better. Because Falcon is heavier out of throw, wavelanding is often not an option and some DI's make it so there's no guaranteed followups or makes the followup weaker. Even then if Marth gets a lot of percents, what good does that do if Falcon doesn't die? I find that this problem is alleviated in FoD/YS because platforms are easier to followup on and kill, so this is mostly a problem in BF/DL. Here's some examples...

https://youtu.be/KoPcrXKWork?t=6m1s - This is like the best case scenario for actually landing hits from up-throwing on platform. Even from landing the hits, it only led to damage which is okay, but it's not leading to kills.
https://youtu.be/KoPcrXKWork?t=6m59s - then there's these scenarios where up-throw just completely leads to nothing.
https://youtu.be/KoPcrXKWork?t=4m37s - 3 up-throw followups, none which directly linked to the kill. I guess the first up-throw followup could've led to a gimp, but I have no idea why Smuckers teched away there in the first place as Rishi never threatened f-smash for tech in or anything throughout the set.

Another annoying thing on BF is when Falcon recovers high and lands on the side platforms, F-smashing through it is a lot harder than it should be. I miss it a decent amount and so does Rishi throughout the set, and for some reason Falcon is the only character I have a problem doing this with. Are there perhaps other alternatives I could do?

Also, I notice that Zain/Rishi and potentially other Marths really like shield dropping for the sake of just dropping through platforms. Why do you think they do this? Some examples is that Zain likes shield dropping after a b-throw tech chase on platform on spacies, and Rishi likes doing it out of dash then shield drop. I've always just dropped through platforms as normal and haven't really experienced much issues doing it.

Regarding the IC's mu, I was discussing with someone the power of rising fair in the mu, and how I should be primarily using this tool to stuff out IC's WD approach and get a high reward off of hitting it. I analyzed a vod of Shroomed vs Chu at FB4 to see the intricacies of it, and it seems like Shroomed would mixup FH fair, SH fair, and the spacings and timing mixups in between of it to stuff out Chu's approaches. Though rising fair isn't unbeatable, as if mispaced or outplayed, it can be beaten by DD grab, run-up CC, or execution tested with shield/WD, in which dtilt can be used to beat that. When I first approached the IC's mu, I went the conventional route that dtilt beats IC's grounded options and thus encourages them to jump in which rising fair should give me a high reward. When discussing it with others and seeing how Shroomed plays it, rising fair seems to be the priority to get the high reward and using dtilt as a crutch to discourage the options IC's are doing to directly beat rising fair if the timing/spacing of fair isn't sufficient. Thoughts?

Also quick question in this scenario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLrLkLtQkHw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m57s - Shroomed was behind Chu and faired Chu's shield. Chu ended up rolling in, but I'm wondering what to do if Chu were to bair in OoS instead. What would be the proper way of shield pressuring that option, as I think bair in would beat dash back.
 

AirFair

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I've been looking at the falco mu more recently, and there's a situation that came up numerous times while playing friendlies with a strong falco player. He would laser me once and then dd a bit to wait, and if I dashed back he would shoot another laser (plus maybe come forward a little bit to take the stage I gave up). If I jabbed he would keep waiting for a bit, and then right as I dashed back after he would sh forward with an approaching laser, which would get him followups like dair/grab/shine.

One thing I had in mind was take laser double jab, but it didn't really help much since he would be able to attack me between the jabs, which I think was talked about in one of the earlier pages. Maybe I could wait and jab and that would work, but I'm not sure I want to stand and wait in that specific scenario since I want to be controlling falco, which to me means taking advantage of the disruptions in his lasers.

Keeping that idea in mind, the other thing I had in mind were to either dash in a bit to threaten him, but when I tried doing this a couple of times he would sh in, and I would dash back as if he was doing a nair/dair and instead I would get lasered and hit. When I get closer, I want to dash back when I see him jump in so that I can beat the sh approach, but because I feel like I can't distinguish it from the approaching laser, I end up getting hit. Is the only way to beat this option to just read it? If I were to dash in and then side b/fair him when he jumps, I could beat laser, but I wouldn't want to trade with dair and drop the punish, although there are definitely spacing related things I'm working on, which could be part of the problem.

Also, I think you may have mentioned something about reacting to laser vs aerial, which I for some reason I haven't really looked at that much, but because I am reacting to the sh and not what comes after, I think if I looked at the reaction I could play the position better, since I find it hard to know which of the two are coming from a sh in within TR, and that's what's getting me right now.
 
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Dr Peepee

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https://youtu.be/f8yKWtB2nOg?t=10s
https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=32s

Hey pp, I was wondering about these responses to your dash forwards. In each case, do you think armada/s2j are scared of rc dtilt or dash jc grab?
Looks like S2J was mostly worried about Dtilt, and Armada seems to kind of be avoiding both but moreso grab.

Hey PP. I'm physically taking a short break from playing Melee until later Monday in which I plan to get back into the groove of playing. Out of curiosity, how long do you think is acceptable to not playing Melee and not losing much?

I've been doing a lot of match analysis which I've been sorely lacking for awhile. Got some questions in some of my weaker matchups:

Often, I find Marths to be pretty inefficient when it comes to combo'ing Falcon on BF/DL. I'm having doubts if up-throw really is the best option to do when Falcon can just DI in, slide-off DI, etc as opposed to corner tech chase. I find up-throwing spacies acceptable because there's a lot of mixups and comboing them to death flows better. Because Falcon is heavier out of throw, wavelanding is often not an option and some DI's make it so there's no guaranteed followups or makes the followup weaker. Even then if Marth gets a lot of percents, what good does that do if Falcon doesn't die? I find that this problem is alleviated in FoD/YS because platforms are easier to followup on and kill, so this is mostly a problem in BF/DL. Here's some examples...

https://youtu.be/KoPcrXKWork?t=6m1s - This is like the best case scenario for actually landing hits from up-throwing on platform. Even from landing the hits, it only led to damage which is okay, but it's not leading to kills.
https://youtu.be/KoPcrXKWork?t=6m59s - then there's these scenarios where up-throw just completely leads to nothing.
https://youtu.be/KoPcrXKWork?t=4m37s - 3 up-throw followups, none which directly linked to the kill. I guess the first up-throw followup could've led to a gimp, but I have no idea why Smuckers teched away there in the first place as Rishi never threatened f-smash for tech in or anything throughout the set.

Another annoying thing on BF is when Falcon recovers high and lands on the side platforms, F-smashing through it is a lot harder than it should be. I miss it a decent amount and so does Rishi throughout the set, and for some reason Falcon is the only character I have a problem doing this with. Are there perhaps other alternatives I could do?

Also, I notice that Zain/Rishi and potentially other Marths really like shield dropping for the sake of just dropping through platforms. Why do you think they do this? Some examples is that Zain likes shield dropping after a b-throw tech chase on platform on spacies, and Rishi likes doing it out of dash then shield drop. I've always just dropped through platforms as normal and haven't really experienced much issues doing it.

Regarding the IC's mu, I was discussing with someone the power of rising fair in the mu, and how I should be primarily using this tool to stuff out IC's WD approach and get a high reward off of hitting it. I analyzed a vod of Shroomed vs Chu at FB4 to see the intricacies of it, and it seems like Shroomed would mixup FH fair, SH fair, and the spacings and timing mixups in between of it to stuff out Chu's approaches. Though rising fair isn't unbeatable, as if mispaced or outplayed, it can be beaten by DD grab, run-up CC, or execution tested with shield/WD, in which dtilt can be used to beat that. When I first approached the IC's mu, I went the conventional route that dtilt beats IC's grounded options and thus encourages them to jump in which rising fair should give me a high reward. When discussing it with others and seeing how Shroomed plays it, rising fair seems to be the priority to get the high reward and using dtilt as a crutch to discourage the options IC's are doing to directly beat rising fair if the timing/spacing of fair isn't sufficient. Thoughts?

Also quick question in this scenario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLrLkLtQkHw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m57s - Shroomed was behind Chu and faired Chu's shield. Chu ended up rolling in, but I'm wondering what to do if Chu were to bair in OoS instead. What would be the proper way of shield pressuring that option, as I think bair in would beat dash back.
Breaks can depend on how much you trained beforehand and also how much you keep your mind in the game during the break. Anything longer than a month is definitely pushing it to me.

It's better to tech chase Falcon on the ground whenever possible usually, and it takes more percent on him to get good Uthrow follows, so you need to mix your throws on him more than you would on spacies imo.

I don't know of other alternatives to Fsmashing Falcon's side platform landing besides intercepting him before he lands. I guess you can just Uair and then hit him off or something? You may need to wait a second to Fsmash the landing sometimes which seems to resolve any issues for me. Might just be something to spend a little time practicing.

Just overdoing shield dropping to me.

Rising Fair only gives reward if they're not holding down, which ICs will be doing if they WD. Maybe not if they shield though. For this reason I still believe Dtilt is better, in addition to splitting them up/desyncing them pretty well and pretty safely and giving you more stage to keep them from WD'ing back. If you prefer to Fair, then that may also be fine but I do not prefer to do so.

You could Fair then shield to beat Bair and then grab the shield on confirm I suppose. Or you could just land even later with Fair for more frame advantage to safely dash away. You could also just empty land and grab or something too I imagine. Or just space on him so Bair OOS doesn't reach.


I've been looking at the falco mu more recently, and there's a situation that came up numerous times while playing friendlies with a strong falco player. He would laser me once and then dd a bit to wait, and if I dashed back he would shoot another laser (plus maybe come forward a little bit to take the stage I gave up). If I jabbed he would keep waiting for a bit, and then right as I dashed back after he would sh forward with an approaching laser, which would get him followups like dair/grab/shine.

One thing I had in mind was take laser double jab, but it didn't really help much since he would be able to attack me between the jabs, which I think was talked about in one of the earlier pages. Maybe I could wait and jab and that would work, but I'm not sure I want to stand and wait in that specific scenario since I want to be controlling falco, which to me means taking advantage of the disruptions in his lasers.

Keeping that idea in mind, the other thing I had in mind were to either dash in a bit to threaten him, but when I tried doing this a couple of times he would sh in, and I would dash back as if he was doing a nair/dair and instead I would get lasered and hit. When I get closer, I want to dash back when I see him jump in so that I can beat the sh approach, but because I feel like I can't distinguish it from the approaching laser, I end up getting hit. Is the only way to beat this option to just read it? If I were to dash in and then side b/fair him when he jumps, I could beat laser, but I wouldn't want to trade with dair and drop the punish, although there are definitely spacing related things I'm working on, which could be part of the problem.

Also, I think you may have mentioned something about reacting to laser vs aerial, which I for some reason I haven't really looked at that much, but because I am reacting to the sh and not what comes after, I think if I looked at the reaction I could play the position better, since I find it hard to know which of the two are coming from a sh in within TR, and that's what's getting me right now.
Yeah this is what you want. Run up Nair in place or slightly forward will cover a lot of stuff so I'd start there, and vary the run will be part of your mixup. Once you have that, Falco will either need to back up or run in as he confirms you move forward, which is straightforward enough. Also if you confirm something out of dash back, don't be afraid to SH Bair it and keep retreating. Free damage and at mid or high percent it's a very useful connection. Also when you dash away you can get a much easier PS there. If you confirm laser out of dash away you could also turnaround side B if you're somewhat quick, or pivot Fair/Nair if you're pretty quick. But yeah, just experimenting with pushing in and regaining your mobility over him should be a good start. Don't threaten Dtilt you don't/will very rarely need it since he jumps a lot. You can even get close sometimes and start working your Fair too and he has no answer to that on block especially. Abuse your mobility and range that laser normally stops.
 

Kotastic

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Got some questions regarding the puff mu

https://youtu.be/Mg0v2eyacoo?t=7s - I liked the dd nair, but is it viable to do vs. puff at low percents even with fair until it starts knocking down? Don't think pivot grab would reliably work either because fair is a lasting hitbox. Obviously fsmash/ftilt can be good, but what about out of dash?

https://youtu.be/Mg0v2eyacoo?t=1m46s - Both times soft crouched to dodge rising fair. Third time soft CC and could’ve fsmashed. Would jump FF nair be better?

https://youtu.be/Mg0v2eyacoo?t=2m43s - An example of fair not knocking down at low percents, requiring an extra outplay. Hard to get tipper fair accounting for puff’s aerial drift. Is there a better course of action out of DD?

Also, what are your thoughts using neutral B on the way down? I’ve personally always done fair/dair on the way down since it’s faster, and it hasn't crossed my mind to use neutral B as a potential mixup.
 

Dr Peepee

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Really awkward Nair timing, Fair wouldn't have hit there I think. If I did it earlier it would've been fine, but then you may be asking about something different. I don't know about grab vs Fair either besides the extra helpful landing lag. Side B can be good. Fair is good spaced, so is Bair. Dtilt may be useful vs ending frames(smaller) of her Fair? You could pivot Fsmash/Ftilt too I suppose. Nair is pretty great vs approaching Puff so I'm quite partial to it though, especially at lower percents when it combos.

Nair is great but it can lose to Fsmash anyway as can Fair. Nair is better at covering SH and staying on the ground/shielding though. Fading away with Fair is safer(from Fsmash) but I'm not sure if it's still safe from Puff Fair/Bair since I haven't tested that option much yet. Dtilt loses to jumps but will generally beat everything else besides DA(DA can beat jumps too depending on spacing).

AC Nair, rising Fair FF to catch her next jump with dash FH/DJ Fair/Uair or whatever...that's probably it.

Not sure how you mean the neutral B question but I use that tool as a mixup a lot still and it has stayed quite useful.
 

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Also, what are your thoughts using neutral B on the way down? I’ve personally always done fair/dair on the way down since it’s faster, and it hasn't crossed my mind to use neutral B as a potential mixup.
Just to add my thoughts on this, the reason neutral b is a good mixup when falling is because when marth starts the neutral b, his falling speed slows, so you can dodge some attacks and hit people who are setting up to punish your fair/dair landing.
 
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Basically when puff is at low percent in the air where aerials don't knockdown, and puff does aerials where it's set up to not get grabbed (like fair/nair or high bair), is nair like the only reliable aerial to use to punish puff's aerial commitment? I see you've listed nair as a good tool, but it seems like other tools require me to be at a standstill or pivot technology like ftilt/fsmash.

Out of dash dance when puff is crouching at low percents, you don't think FF nair is reliable to use? I suppose I could always risk for dash grab for potential high reward, but I try avoid that when possible. I could dair, but I'd like to cover other options puff could potentially do other than crouch.

Oh yeah regarding floaties juggling on platform, what's the ideal course of action when they attack on the way down but you can't get to platform on time? Like this: https://youtu.be/fPj2za2cobE?t=1h36m36s
-Ok I totally had time to get on platform, but besides that point, I think it's a 50/50 that they will attack on the way down or do something else. I How should I handle this?
 
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Dr Peepee

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Nah you can Fair her often too, but it just depends when that's going to be useful. Your earlier example of me was kinda weird since Soft got right above my head with Fair but in most situations Puff would lunge into a lower section of Marth so I wouldn't be able to wait that long and thus Fair would be better. You need to tipper to get real conversions and be doing later Fair usually, but yeah if you want low percent conversions on Puff it's probably best to hit Nair or grab or tippered mid/late Fair. Dash attack can give fairly good reward too.

You want to AC FF Nair more when Puff is crouching imo because that beats her aerial startup, shield, and crouch. It just loses to like DA and Fsmash so you can't overdo it or you'll get called out. Great option though I think. Fair is better than Dair vs crouching Puff due to safety since you can do mid Fair and still be safe and cover plenty. DA is fairly good vs crouching Puff too in terms of risk reward but I use it sparingly to skew that in my favor. Oh also about Nair, you want to do it more after running up so you can do it in place if possible, since drifting forward Nair is more likely to get blown up in my experience. I think grab can still be fine but you just need to make sure Puff doesn't WD when you come in, which you can manipulate with these other tools. Also just to say it I like Dtilt vs crouching Puff even if you can't usually punish very hard off of it.

I'm afraid this question is too broad to adequately answer. This is really how I should've been answering these juggling questions I realized recently. Obviously for this specific situation you should have hit Yoshi in his move startup, but this type of thing may depend a bit on situation character stage etc. Hitting through the platform is an option, but sometimes you may not be able to get anything. I don't know how to easily answer it as it's so broad. Confirming attack startup is great, manipulating with SH/FH can be good, as can a little bit of dashing. May be something to strictly practice. If you have any more specifics to flesh this out more, that may be a good idea.
 

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https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=6m55s - ideas on how to corner Sheik here better on FoD? The platform makes it hard to corner, so Zain had to settle for a somewhat inferior fade back fair here so Plup gradually takes stage and jumps on platform to his advantage. Maybe walk closer and react?

https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=8m35s - this is often what happens to me when I try to dash dance a sheik. I get uncertain if I can whiff punish Sheik with grab. If Zain tried to grab the dtilt, I think it would've missed because of WD back. The ftilt I'm uncertain about if it could've been grab before Plup dashed back. Regardless, do you think it's possible to react to tilts and dd grab, or does it have to be a read? I've read often that you advocate for spacing fair to beat ftilt, is that what you think Zain should have done?

https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=9m7s - blergh, I hate this interaction. It seemed like Zain was trying to dtilt asap after jab, but not only did it not come out on time, but also the CC dtilt also missed. I'm particuarly concerned about this at higher percents where ftilt is a threat, so did Zain perhaps not dtilt earlier? I'd rather stay grounded if possible.

Also, I've been doing a lot of match analyses as of late, feel free to comment on them! I might be down to do an analysis on someone else's vod if you msg me the link. https://flowfeedback.com/profile/TzcCktyuqmbaqTbHQ
 

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Well out of that Nair he could have turnaround grabbed. But after dashing away, he still had Fair/Nair/grab/Dtilt he could have used in varying ways. This is especially true since Plup held shield and was facing toward the edge so not much to do OOS. For example, after the first long dash away when Plup shields he can SH in and Fair, but if he's worried about Bair OOS he can just long dash back in or WD in to mix Dtilt pressure or grab or wait, etc.

Zain dashed too far away after Dtilt came out, so no he couldn't have punished since he reacted late. He should either have dashed back in to grab on reaction sooner(primed for Dtilt/Ftilt) or reacted out of dash back to come in with probably Fair in place to push Sheik back and establish control. He ends up dashing back again despite Sheik not really being able to push in out of Dtilt and he gets stuck in a DD loop which doesn't really help anything. But anyway yeah the Fair is the easiest answer, though you could push in with dash and threaten Dtilt/grab/just taking more stage/etc if Sheik did move back as you moved in.

Hmm...I'm not entirely sure but I do think he was slow. The ASDI down one missing isn't surprising due to the way Samus stands when she spaces Ftilt so I don't think that's something to go for. I'll write this down to test though.
 

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https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=14m7s - here, Zain tried sharking Plup with the ftilt, which Plup responded with DJ FF shield on platform to avoid getting uptilted, which I doubt would shield poke. I was thinking perhaps instead of sharking with ftilt, Zain could've faired, but that DJ seemed like it would've dodged fair. This scenario seems tough because of the mixup of just landing without DJ as well. Thoughts?

https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=14m13s - In this scenario, you usually advocate to take platform. What if Sheik falls down fairs, alongside with the mixup that she can DJ? Is there options Marth could do to cover both instead of playing mixup?

https://youtu.be/K6y7LzwsEUU?t=59s
https://youtu.be/K6y7LzwsEUU?t=2m49s - from both clips, how can I avoid this dtilt from jumping off ledge?
 

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Walking forward could've let him Dtilt the retreat to edge and let him react to any jumps such as this one. He could also have run to the edge to further discourage that play and prime himself to hit a DJ. However, out of walk he could have SH'd to Fair like you said and then even if he early Fair'd he can either DJ Fair/Uair out of it or FF and then Utilt or SH aerial as well likely.

Of course. Marth can SH and DJ Fair her if she tries to aerial or FF if she aerials early then Utilt or Dtilt or whatever. He can also land and grab or DD grab. If she DJs then he just lands and moves to get under her and make sure she can't aerial/airdodge out safely. In this situation I could probably see doing something like FH Fair/Bair as working once the DJ is gone too.

Looks like both times you reacted to him being off-balance too late and then you got blown up for it.
First clip, he's not in a great position when he misses your up-B. So you can get on there. I understand why you didn't since you thought you'd tech Dtilt but working on that reaction is helpful. Anyway after that when he SHs out of shield you mayyy have been able to get up faster than he could get in position to Dtilt, but either way you can play around the new Dtilt spacing by getting up with Nair to push him away with second hit or just timing your getup between Dtilts. He should've been spaced farther away to avoid getting hit or playing around your invincibility more.
Second clip, looks like he chose the same spacing until after the Nair and then he is farther away. So you could hold onto the edge longer now and play with haxdash/NIL more freely. And of course right after he gets that farther spacing he runs in as you grab the edge so you could have hit him there. Then he SHs away as you grab the edge so you could have hit him there too, and even if you reacted late you probably could have done another Nair to hit his landing. Alternatively, you can hold the edge longer so you can getup right after he Dtilts if the Dtilt won't hit you(you can confirm it before he lands at least) or do a regrab then to mess with his timing.
 

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I feel like I may have hit another development wall, but I'm not totally sure. For context, I've taken a break recently that I'm extending through this next week while I attend a summer music program, but I've noticed when playing lately for fun that I feel like a much stronger player than when I "left." There's some good and bad to this that I've been thinking about the past few days, and I wanted to bring it on here for your perspective:

The feeling I get is that taking a break has allowed me to internalize a lot of what I had been studying daily the weeks/months prior. Much of what had been a daily struggle to keep in mind while I practiced/played/studied suddenly came to me quite effortlessly and was now obvious. That feeling of something that was once nebulous now being obvious is something I associate with internalization (and I think you've concurred with that), and it makes me wonder if breaks are more powerful than they appear to be? You recently gave advice to Kotastic about breaks, but when you were active, how did you treat your own breaks/did you experience this type of thing?

The bad part of coming back from a break feeling stronger means I also come back a little lost. If I don't need to focus the bulk of my study where it was before, where do I put it now? It becomes harder to find gaping holes in my play as I get better and focus on filling as many as possible, but knowing how to still keep improving after reaching that point seems critical to getting good and not just competent. I remember how a few months ago I felt like friendlies weren't useful to me, and my time was better spent on all solo practice and analysis, but currently it's the opposite, that my solo practice and analysis is giving me lackluster returns, and friendlies are teaching me a lot about different positions because I'm constantly exposed to new mixups and playstyles. Of course, friendlies are much more difficult to come by (when I'm home over the summer I can't even netplay), and regardless if I'm not getting much out of solo practice/analysis that should just mean I need to go deeper, so I'm looking into how I can figure that out.

When analyzing, for instance, it doesn't take me too long to answer why each player picked a certain option, what the position was, what the alternative strong options were, and subsequently whether the play was good/bad, but maybe I'm missing context? Is it possible to be looking at situations in a vacuum too much? I've been turning your mantra "look for a hit and figure out why it happens" over in my mind, thinking about conditioning from previous interactions, intention masking, data collection, but idk I still have this feeling I'm not getting below the level of understanding I'm currently on. Am I asking the right questions here?
 

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I often did not benefit from longer breaks and in fact just forgot things when I took them, but short breaks like a day or two could be good for helping me internalize ideas. However, it is true that when you have a break such as sleep your brain can begin to let the information sink in, so it's not unreasonable to use to your advantage. Let's also remember that you had to do a lot of work to get to the point where you could internalize the information. That said, if you wanted to strategically use breaks for learning more then by all means test it out, given these results.

If you can't use friendlies, then you want to introduce new variables, or ask new questions. When does percent matter more than you'd expect? Stage positioning? What if you look at these things independent of hits, or just look at non-hit situations to find connections between those and hits? And so on. Perhaps you and other players here could trade ideas in situations like these.
For practice, you may want to practice new ideas or add more complexity or practice for more positions or variables as well. Do you have any stage-specific tech?
 

Zorcey

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Yeah, letting the brain rest helping with internalization was exactly what I was thinking of as well. But that should only go so far, and I want to be careful not to overestimate how useful something as controversial as not playing can be for growth. You’re completely right that it was the work and not the break that actually helped me learn, so I need to be careful I don’t fall into the trap of using this as an excuse for laziness, which I think you strongly allude to here. I’ll start with trying to take breaks after more intensive days of study, and see what results I get from that.

By “look at these things independent of hits, or just look at non-hit situations to find connections between those and hits,” do you mean interactions where the players intended to hit one another, but didn’t? Or rather interactions where players aren’t trying to hit each other, or both? What would the latter look like? That seems like a great start for something I haven’t thought about much before: one simple example I can think of is dash in > WD back from TR to see how the opponent responds to the threat of an approach/poke. Based off this and some initial thinking, it seems like intentionally non-hit situations are for data collection for future hit situations. Am I on the right track?

I’m cautious about adding complexity to my practice, because frankly I’m worried I’ll just add excessive actions. I feel like it’s a hard thing to give advice on when I’m not offering specifics, but it should be a good way to start getting more out of solo work again. What can you say generally, and what can I bring to the table that would help with more pointed recommendations?

I don’t have any stage-specific tech besides adjusting my platform techchases/sometimes edgeguards tbh, and I’m not sure that’s what you mean. If Marth has stuff besides the PS UpB stall and some NIL land stuff on platforms I don’t think I know about it?
 

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I meant those variables as "these things." But then I did move on to talk about when hits didn't happen. You can make guesses for now for sure and then test how it goes in matches/analysis, but you can also go the other way and approach the analysis looking for situations where hits don't happen and ask what's going on.

Even just adding one more option to combine with the rest can be good. Adding one more variation of your typical routine can give you a lot of new insight as well. Look for the holes in what you currently do, as well as opponent options in various matchups you haven't fully addressed.

Yes, most people don't think of stage-specific tech. Stuff like PS transformations is most obvious, where you can be either below the right bottom platform or suddenly on it in a given space on the rock transformation. However, I found it worthwhile to know on all of the stages exactly where a full dash put me, a short one, and a full drift SH in. The SH one is particularly useful so I know how much of a platform I could cover with a Fair and how much I can cover with say DJ fadeback Fair as well. I mean you can probably also figure out how to edgecancel your up-Bs on these various levels from recovery but I think the neutral stuff is more valuable.
 

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When fox is dash dancing really far away(at the edge of rc dtilt range), do you prefer foxtrot or dash->wd down to take space?

Wavedash seems to trade off lag for the ability to dtilt, whereas foxtrot maintains most of your options and doesn't put you in lag.
 

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https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=27m4s - How can Zain better juggle Plup here as Plup drifted in, kinda ruining the fair followup as it didn't tipper?

Also, how do you feel about Sheik having a fall stack of needle charge? Do you think that shielding/jumping is justified against it? 17% is a lot.

I've been just mostly tech chasing falcon as of late and prioritizing positioning in that mu, and it feels like most of my kills are just gimps or edgeguards as opposed to long sequence combos I see characters like falco do. Is... this okay i guess? I just feel like going for long sequence combos typically gives less returns as Marth compared to other characters.
 
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Dr Peepee

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When fox is dash dancing really far away(at the edge of rc dtilt range), do you prefer foxtrot or dash->wd down to take space?

Wavedash seems to trade off lag for the ability to dtilt, whereas foxtrot maintains most of your options and doesn't put you in lag.
I generally don't foxtrot against Fox unless you mean just dash in one time. I wouldn't do WD down all of the time but it's not bad if you've conditioned Fox to respect your dash in(or at least will only attack in if you go deeper so you can punish if he comes in on reaction).

https://youtu.be/-ZgiXWR08xk?t=27m4s - How can Zain better juggle Plup here as Plup drifted in, kinda ruining the fair followup as it didn't tipper?

Also, how do you feel about Sheik having a fall stack of needle charge? Do you think that shielding/jumping is justified against it? 17% is a lot.

I've been just mostly tech chasing falcon as of late and prioritizing positioning in that mu, and it feels like most of my kills are just gimps or edgeguards as opposed to long sequence combos I see characters like falco do. Is... this okay i guess? I just feel like going for long sequence combos typically gives less returns as Marth compared to other characters.
hmm

Maybe a couple ways to go about this. One is to DJ Uair/Fair on reaction to where Plup is and FF back down. Another is to let Plup get closer to the ground and then hit him so the hits after that will be easier. I'm partial to the latter normally, but here it's kind of hard to do if Plup drifts away. If he kept drifting in though then you'd want to use SH and threaten DJ aerial hits. You could also maybe runoff to the floor if you suspect Plup will drift away so you can cover wherever he goes. If you do take the early hit, you want to set it up so you can hit around the apex of your jump or a little after so you can FF back down in time to set up lower hits afterward and be ready for aerial vs airdodge likely mixup.
 

maclo4

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Im having a hard time balancing trying to understand my opponents habits vs trying to condition them/make them play my game. I feel like sometimes I'll go for a while just doing my own thing then realize I haven't even really given the other person the chance to show what like to do. Or on the flipside I'll be so focused on figuring out their habits that I let them do their own thing and just play to their strengths. Do you have tips how to balance these? Do you sometimes intentionally give them some space to see what they do or is it more like being able to pick up habits at all times? I assume this is something that will come more and more with time and as I pay more attention to it, but yea any advice would be appreciated
 

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https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m36s - why do you back off so much against M2K in the mirror? I think you did this because you know M2K loves the high reward of DA. Say if M2K did walk dtilts instead of the DA, how would you respond?

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m41s - I often see you do this kind of trick where you WD back then WD in attack as the opponent tries to take space from the WD back. How do you set these up the most effectively so it's not so obvious that you'll always attack back in?

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m53s - This is something that's been bothering me for awhile. When floaties in general do no DI for up throw, do you honestly think up-air is the best followup even if it true combos? While it's great that you got some damage, you need to outplay them further to get a kill followup. I've been thinking that dash positioning after up-throw for a fair/bair and reading double jump for huge reward. Or maybe just throw them at the corner since that's still good if not better. Thoughts?

Also I think you missed my two other questions, so I'll copy and paste:
How do you feel about Sheik having a fall stack of needle charge? Do you think that shielding/jumping is justified against it? 17% is a lot.

I've been just mostly tech chasing falcon as of late and prioritizing positioning in that mu, and it feels like most of my kills are just gimps or edgeguards as opposed to long sequence combos I see characters like falco do. Is... this okay i guess? I just feel like going for long sequence combos typically gives less returns as Marth compared to other characters.
 

maclo4

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Kotastic I feel that about falcon. It feels weird to get so many kills from gimps and edgeguards but carrying falcon to the ledge is just too good
 

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Im having a hard time balancing trying to understand my opponents habits vs trying to condition them/make them play my game. I feel like sometimes I'll go for a while just doing my own thing then realize I haven't even really given the other person the chance to show what like to do. Or on the flipside I'll be so focused on figuring out their habits that I let them do their own thing and just play to their strengths. Do you have tips how to balance these? Do you sometimes intentionally give them some space to see what they do or is it more like being able to pick up habits at all times? I assume this is something that will come more and more with time and as I pay more attention to it, but yea any advice would be appreciated
You set yourself up to see. A dash in WD back is a simple way to do this as it keeps you safe while letting you observe what they do. Then if you dash in and maybe add in WD down or SH in place farther away, you again can observe them. Then you can begin applying. It's not about watching or not watching, but about structuring your game well and learning positions. If you don't do that, then you'll either be unfocused at best or controlled by your opponent at worst.

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m36s - why do you back off so much against M2K in the mirror? I think you did this because you know M2K loves the high reward of DA. Say if M2K did walk dtilts instead of the DA, how would you respond?

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m41s - I often see you do this kind of trick where you WD back then WD in attack as the opponent tries to take space from the WD back. How do you set these up the most effectively so it's not so obvious that you'll always attack back in?

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=5m53s - This is something that's been bothering me for awhile. When floaties in general do no DI for up throw, do you honestly think up-air is the best followup even if it true combos? While it's great that you got some damage, you need to outplay them further to get a kill followup. I've been thinking that dash positioning after up-throw for a fair/bair and reading double jump for huge reward. Or maybe just throw them at the corner since that's still good if not better. Thoughts?

Also I think you missed my two other questions, so I'll copy and paste:
How do you feel about Sheik having a fall stack of needle charge? Do you think that shielding/jumping is justified against it? 17% is a lot.

I've been just mostly tech chasing falcon as of late and prioritizing positioning in that mu, and it feels like most of my kills are just gimps or edgeguards as opposed to long sequence combos I see characters like falco do. Is... this okay i guess? I just feel like going for long sequence combos typically gives less returns as Marth compared to other characters.
Yeah it's just because he doesn't stop lunging ever lol. I could've intercepted between Dtilt and DA obviously but I couldn't have been sure he'd have done both. If M2K did it it'd be very different than if I just consider Marth doing walk Dtilt. If M2K did some walk Dtilts then I'd expect he's likely waiting for me to move in and he has a specific counter like Fsmash or a dash back punish so I'd try to scout that.

Well first of all I don't spam it so that does help. But also if you notice when I did it here I did it when he was in lag so he'd be encouraged to confirm my action and then act, which gives him the new lag in decision making that I can press in on and punish. Sometimes if I just assume someone will attack then I could move back in just before/as it comes out and then move in to counter as well. Marth dittos involve big swings of space as he covers sooooo much ground so this type of play is definitely useful for that reason.

I think he may have either rushed it or assumed I'd have DJ'd and then tried to snipe it. It's worth it if you can tipper around that percent especially on FD since it's good damage and position imo. However if you do want to get more damage you can sometimes just SH Uair to ensure they DJ and then chase them with a DJ Uair/Fair/Bair to take their jump and get a better position. In this case M2K could dash/run left and FH/DJ Bair me to the right and get me offstage and do some variations on this like waiting for me to come down then Fair me. I don't see juggling as outplaying so much since it's a pretty heavy disadvantage for the opposing character normally if you've mapped it out, but I understand that if you don't know it super well then it does feel that way. Throwing offstage in this exact position would've made edgecanceling more likely though. Fthrow is an okay mixup but it's also possible here that you also get nothing on DI down tech away. I would learn the juggle to be honest but if you want to opt for offstage throwing more when applicable that's fine, just make sure you map it out super well so you have a realistic chance of killing/getting damage.
 

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So for the first link, you're moreso scouting out what the Marth does after the dtilt in a similar fashion to Sheik fair when you can't exactly punish immediately out of dash back? Both moves are somewhat safe take space options. I can understand why you would do this for M2K since he would eventually give in which would give you a high reward, and perhaps scouting out what your opponent does after a relatively low non-committal take space move is when you decide when to retaliate? Like obviously you dash back a bit more if your opponent gives in with a high-committal move, or perhaps if the opponent just takes space again that's the time to do AC nair to beat dtilt or WD down dtilt to beat Sheik's fair. I might be phrasing this kind of weird, so please clarify if you're confused.

As for the up-throw up-air in the mirror with no DI, you say "you can sometimes just SH Uair to ensure they DJ and then chase them with a DJ Uair/Fair/Bair to take their jump and get a better position." Do you mean SH threaten up air to ensure that they DJ, and then DJ afterwards with aerials to chase down Marth's DJ, or shark with SH up air then try to intercept Marth with your positional advantage? Also, where do you draw the line of outplaying in juggling as opposed to abusing positional advantage? I feel like atm, I can't really identify the line between outplaying opponents in juggles and simply abusing my advantageous state because I really just want the high reward of juggle followups.
 

quixotic

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What do you think about the thing zain does where he does an aerial on shield and then dash dances in place at roll range? I've found it really good vs people who do slight delays on their roll timings.

Also what do you think about the zoning fair zain does after this movement in this clip? Any other options you would consider after confirming the opponent isn't going to roll?

https://youtu.be/lZ2AzW5Cj3g?t=28s
 
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So for the first link, you're moreso scouting out what the Marth does after the dtilt in a similar fashion to Sheik fair when you can't exactly punish immediately out of dash back? Both moves are somewhat safe take space options. I can understand why you would do this for M2K since he would eventually give in which would give you a high reward, and perhaps scouting out what your opponent does after a relatively low non-committal take space move is when you decide when to retaliate? Like obviously you dash back a bit more if your opponent gives in with a high-committal move, or perhaps if the opponent just takes space again that's the time to do AC nair to beat dtilt or WD down dtilt to beat Sheik's fair. I might be phrasing this kind of weird, so please clarify if you're confused.

As for the up-throw up-air in the mirror with no DI, you say "you can sometimes just SH Uair to ensure they DJ and then chase them with a DJ Uair/Fair/Bair to take their jump and get a better position." Do you mean SH threaten up air to ensure that they DJ, and then DJ afterwards with aerials to chase down Marth's DJ, or shark with SH up air then try to intercept Marth with your positional advantage? Also, where do you draw the line of outplaying in juggling as opposed to abusing positional advantage? I feel like atm, I can't really identify the line between outplaying opponents in juggles and simply abusing my advantageous state because I really just want the high reward of juggle followups.
Yeah scouting plus analysis of how he is. I may also have just generally opted to play more passively that event instead of trying to go for direct punishes or pushing stronger positions if I see something like that. Both are acceptable responses. But yes backing up after someone takes space encourages them to take more, which you can either intercept or fade back again to punish. If someone were to just take space safely again, then you'd be in trouble, but you'd also be more primed to expect it as you'd be luring them in and ideally be a bit ahead of them.

I meant it both ways but yeah I should've clarified. You can SH and either Uair or not and then immediate DJ or fall and then commit to a new zoning trap OR DJ aerial to reposition them after they've used their jump.

When the opponent has more options, such as Peach or Puff with all of their resources, hitting them is more of an outplay or a dragged out sequence at best. It's still advantaged for you, but it's not easy to make the advantage appear without putting in a lot of work inside and outside the game, and even in the moment it can take some work as well. A more straightforward abuse of position is when characters are basically out of resources on FD so they pretty much have to deal with you. Maybe I should put it this way: the less you understand these positions the more it's about blatant outplays, and the more you know about them it's about abusing your positional advantage.

What do you think about the thing zain does where he does an aerial on shield and then dash dances in place at roll range? I've found it really good vs people who do slight delays on their roll timings.

Also what do you think about the zoning fair zain does after this movement in this clip? Any other options you would consider after confirming the opponent isn't going to roll?

https://youtu.be/lZ2AzW5Cj3g?t=28s
The roll trap is fine, though you certainly don't need to DD if you have an opponent in shield as Marth. The DD is useful for encouraging them to act and keeping tempo up though. A downside is that if you're busy doing this and the opponent doesn't roll or WDs into you and shines as a spacie for example that'd be harder to deal with.

I don't understand this question. Zain only Fair'd when LLod was on a platform or when he fell away to pull a turnip? He didn't look like he'd roll in either situation.
 

Kotastic

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Do you think that if the opponent has their DJ and you hit them while they still have it, it's still an outplay? Does the answer change from like Peach/Samus to Marth/Sheik to Fox/Falco/Falcon due to their fall speed? It seems that throughout my questions on juggling Sheik, it seems like at least in that category it moreso seems to be abusing positional advantage with utilizing SH/FH to exhaust DJ/FF attack at the very least.

Also regarding mental training of reframing my natural response to things, like not self-deprecating myself, I've been reaching a point where I'm kind of bored of doing the exercise. I still do it in my daily meditations, but this is really apparent when I do my jogging exercise where after I reframe what I would do if I lose, I just kinda stop re-framing my "natural" response. Before, I had to do it for several weeks because I had trouble accepting that reframework, but nowadays I actually really do think that way. I no longer really self-deprecate myself much and replaced it with much more productive thoughts, so thus now my "natural" response of self-deprecation is no longer the case. As such, repeating my reframework while jogging feels redundant to me. Should I keep up with this exercise, or should I look for other avenues of some sort of growth out there while utilizing my body?
 

Dr Peepee

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It can be an outplay, but it would depend. If you trap them so they can't really deal with anything else then no, but if you coerce them into you or away in a way you can punish then yes. The answer often depends more on stage and position and percent. For example, at very low percents you pretty much need tipper Fair or falling tipper Uair to continue a punish, so it's more likely an outplay unless you can keep them above you. On DL the opponent can often go high and to the side and break on platforms which are hard to get to, so trying to do awkward continues that you wouldn't normally have to do pushes things more toward outplays. And since any platform can break punishes sometimes then the position itself can also make this varied.

I would say find new ways to increase it. If you let it go you'll slip into old habits/the habits of those around you. Perhaps you can increase the negativity of the vision, or you can instead start focusing on the positives of the difficult experiences, or you can use the time to re-affirm your goals when put in challenging situations so it pushes you forward. These types of positive feelings will always be invigorating, so there isn't any end to this stage of the exercise.
 

quixotic

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Yeah scouting plus analysis of how he is. I may also have just generally opted to play more passively that event instead of trying to go for direct punishes or pushing stronger positions if I see something like that. Both are acceptable responses. But yes backing up after someone takes space encourages them to take more, which you can either intercept or fade back again to punish. If someone were to just take space safely again, then you'd be in trouble, but you'd also be more primed to expect it as you'd be luring them in and ideally be a bit ahead of them.

I meant it both ways but yeah I should've clarified. You can SH and either Uair or not and then immediate DJ or fall and then commit to a new zoning trap OR DJ aerial to reposition them after they've used their jump.

When the opponent has more options, such as Peach or Puff with all of their resources, hitting them is more of an outplay or a dragged out sequence at best. It's still advantaged for you, but it's not easy to make the advantage appear without putting in a lot of work inside and outside the game, and even in the moment it can take some work as well. A more straightforward abuse of position is when characters are basically out of resources on FD so they pretty much have to deal with you. Maybe I should put it this way: the less you understand these positions the more it's about blatant outplays, and the more you know about them it's about abusing your positional advantage.


The roll trap is fine, though you certainly don't need to DD if you have an opponent in shield as Marth. The DD is useful for encouraging them to act and keeping tempo up though. A downside is that if you're busy doing this and the opponent doesn't roll or WDs into you and shines as a spacie for example that'd be harder to deal with.

I don't understand this question. Zain only Fair'd when LLod was on a platform or when he fell away to pull a turnip? He didn't look like he'd roll in either situation.
When you say you don’t need to dash dance, would that mean doing something like fair on shield->dash back(get out of shield grab range)->stand and react? This would cover rolls and then you could dtilt/fair in place/grab depending on what they do out of shield in some kind of advantageous neutral.
 

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That is one solution. You could also SH, or WD. You could also do nothing, which has its own advantages in that it allows you to react to anything OOS instead of letting them play on your dash back by, say, WD'ing away OOS. If you're within shield grab range do nothing is obviously not so good.
 

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https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=6m43s - after the juggle sequence ended with up-air, I think you dashed back needlessly and had to outplay M2K after he landed with fade back fair, as M2K could've dtilted after landing instead of shielding. Do you think a better course of action was to instead of dash back, you could SH fair or WD dtilt/grab M2K's landing?

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=6m54s - You've answered this kind of question before, but I just want extra confirmation. Do you react to the DJ and confirm that with your DJ dair, or is it a read? I often find whenever I do this, I often miss so I can't help that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong. I definitely react with DJ dair to characters like Luigi, but I'm not sure if it's as applicable with Marth. Would you also recommend this against Sheik as well?

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=8m25s - Do you agree with this DA in retrospect and think runoff fair would've been better? It sent M2K back on stage which I'm not a fan of.
 

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Yeah I did some dumb WD because I was probably more focused on moving lol. Pretty unacceptable play honestly. After I encouraged him to drift right with my WD left then got back under him with WD right, I should have begun setting up SH plays like I've mentioned before.

I'm setting up my WD to edge so I can Dair right away if Marth jumps in and I'm invincible. I'm pretty positive I'm 100% reacting, but the whole confirm AND Dair have to be clean for it to work. You may find more success mixing in runoff DJ Dair or runoff Fair and the latter is a pretty easy reaction, though not always useful. You might be able to DJ Nair from the edge later to hit the other Marth back offstage without his jump too.

This last one is a judgment call. Admittedly I didn't even know this DI could happen at the time pretty sure though. Anyway, usually people just pop straight up out of this DA so you can Fair them which is nice. If you don't DA then they go to edge which isn't ideal. If they do DI the DA behind you then....well I'm looking at it and maybe you can jank a dash FH but it's not guaranteed. If you Utilt then they'd go straight up which is okay on FD but still not the best, though it gives you a chance to retake center to push them back off. So basically it's somewhat playable but not worth spamming. The higher reward on them DI'ing badly makes it worth attempting since they don't get off scott-free if they DI well anyway so the risk isn't too terrible. It's everyone's own judgment call as I said. Certainly wouldn't blame anyone for never going for it.
 

quixotic

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PP, I've been pretty lost trying to figure out how to beat fox's rc dtilt. Do you think it is best to pivot shield(saw zain doing this vs armada at summit 5.5)? maybe bait it out and dash dance far enough away to whiff punish it?
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/279212199?t=00h37m23s

Also(probably related) I've been testing out various dash dance lengths and I'm wondering what you think about only doing long dashes with exceptions for specific situations. If you dash dance and have each dash last 15 frames(reaction time), you can react to where your opponent is at the end of each dash which makes neutral a lot easier for me.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Run up grab before it comes out, hold down(maybe you can Dtilt it first idk never tested...probably works at least sometimes), jump over it and aerial, WD/dash farther away if it's coming, and yeah shield. Those are the best options I think. You could Fsmash too but obviously riskier. I think jumping is among the safest options since it would beat pretty much any Fox approach though the reward isn't always the highest. Run up grab I like a lot since it forces Fox to act earlier on his approaches if he does them, which helps you do easier dash back punishes on them.

There is an argument to be made for keeping dashes longer like what you said. It's easier on the hands and thus helps you see things easier too. The downside is you spend more time turned around in one instance, which doesn't always give you the greatest options unless you react to things early with pivot or something. Also your tempo is easier to be controlled if you play pretty slowly all of the time. Also of course it's not always super possible when cornered. You can experiment with that preference and see where it leads, I don't have any issue with that.
 
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