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Socrates

Smash Cadet
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Aug 15, 2013
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46
Is there a best position to be in when fox full hops to top platform? I see a lot of players sort of DD in center stage and then hide under either side platform when they eventually decide to come down (most likely with either a DJ fakeout or a bair, or both) but i feel being stuck so far from center stage when they come down is disadvantageous.
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I agree. It kind of depends on stage, but I think being under the top platform is best. There you SH and either go back down or DJ aerial and space it to swat at Fox to coerce him off the platform. By falling back down you get a punish on him reading that. Sitting under the side platform isn't even safe from Fox SH'ing off the top platform at you anyway so you might as well threaten him back I'd say.
 

Socrates

Smash Cadet
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Messages
46
Yeah I agree. It kind of depends on stage, but I think being under the top platform is best. There you SH and either go back down or DJ aerial and space it to swat at Fox to coerce him off the platform. By falling back down you get a punish on him reading that. Sitting under the side platform isn't even safe from Fox SH'ing off the top platform at you anyway so you might as well threaten him back I'd say.

I’m remembering all the times I’ve tried that swatting technique and been shield drop b-aired. Is there an answer for that or is it just a matter of not being predictable?
 

capusa27

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
65
so do u think the Amish would make good melee players? :3
I don't know about all Amish people, but a couple years back I saw this Amish-bearded person play Super Smash Bros, and he was scary good. With the power of his samurai prince, he vanquished cybernetically-enhanced humans...I think their names were Samus Aran and Jason Zimmerman.

Here are links to his majestic gameplay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSr8E3HkKAU#t=518s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAyMqJPY8jI#t=203s
 

Dr Peepee

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I’m remembering all the times I’ve tried that swatting technique and been shield drop b-aired. Is there an answer for that or is it just a matter of not being predictable?
Yeah you want to make sure you space a Fair or Bair fully so you can't get shield drop punished. Ideally you hit in front of them so the spacing is more lenient. If you're uncertain, just fade away more. This is safer against shield drop and if they go down when you go up.
 

SnailManBigHitta

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 12, 2018
Messages
6
I’m having a lot of trouble approaching against falcon because of his range and speed. I can play neutral decently around the edge of his threat range, but trying to get in close feels really hard since he can nair at me before I reach him. If I manage to read a falcon nair with a fair swat or something, it feels like I only get percent, but if he baits out the fair, he can get a really big punish. I guess my overarching question is how I should try to play it when I’m anywhere between falcons full forward nair range and couple character lengths away
 

Kotastic

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Mar 21, 2015
Messages
540
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https://youtu.be/mQHeDhcdS7U?t=2m28s

In this scenario, I'm theorycrafting what would be the best way to deal with late fair when I'm within WD d-tilt distance. I simulated this scenario a bit with 20xx replays, and it seems possible that I can get a pivot grab before the jabs come out, but it seems kinda high execution heavy. It may be feasible if I have perfect positioning. Aside from that, you think rising fair would be the next best choice?

Oh yeah, I also just updated my blog where I give a pretty long self-reflection of myself and my progress with this game. If anyone cares about reading it, here it is: http://kodorinssbm.blogspot.com/2018/04/self-reflection-472018.html
 
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Dr Peepee

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How can marth beat fh oos here? Zain does his fair a little high but assuming the best case with the latest fair, which is -1 on shield, is there a way to cover the fh?

https://youtu.be/D7MyjRnXpYE?t=7m29s
Pivot SH backward/in place to Fair/Nair it, pivot earlier to set up late Uair are the two main things I'm seeing. You have to dash back if you Fair that close so those two options are best. You could also RC Fsmash if you read it lol.

I’m having a lot of trouble approaching against falcon because of his range and speed. I can play neutral decently around the edge of his threat range, but trying to get in close feels really hard since he can nair at me before I reach him. If I manage to read a falcon nair with a fair swat or something, it feels like I only get percent, but if he baits out the fair, he can get a really big punish. I guess my overarching question is how I should try to play it when I’m anywhere between falcons full forward nair range and couple character lengths away
If you want, you can first hit side B his Nair or pivot grab it if possible to set up for more damaging scenarios. I find Fair, especially tippered, to still put him off balance and close enough to where he can't do much to you but I understand why that isn't as good as a true punish. I generally like discouraging those approaches by pushing in a bit and letting him come to me then countering. When he stops doing those approaches I can push in farther and start getting Dtilts or more reliable Fairs to convert off of. That in between space isn't great for you to swing in though and it's more of a transitional space I'd say.

https://youtu.be/mQHeDhcdS7U?t=2m28s

In this scenario, I'm theorycrafting what would be the best way to deal with late fair when I'm within WD d-tilt distance. I simulated this scenario a bit with 20xx replays, and it seems possible that I can get a pivot grab before the jabs come out, but it seems kinda high execution heavy. It may be feasible if I have perfect positioning. Aside from that, you think rising fair would be the next best choice?

Oh yeah, I also just updated my blog where I give a pretty long self-reflection of myself and my progress with this game. If anyone cares about reading it, here it is: http://kodorinssbm.blogspot.com/2018/04/self-reflection-472018.html
I'm not sure if you can reliably pivot grab that or not to be honest. I tend to grab the jabs or just Fair the jabs or run in and grab after them since Sheik usually shields or dashes back after. Ideally I'd position to Dtilt or running grab her landing but that's not always possible. The grab is something I should specifically test since I really should know but I don't. Rising Fair they could hold down during it and potentially punish, but I'd take a mid or late Fair either on hit or on shield for great positional advantage at any rate.
 

Kopaka

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
268
Location
San Diego
People aim to be fast because, I think:

-ADHD symptoms are increased more by technology and bad lifestyle

-Melee is billed as a fast game now to get people into it

-emphasis throughout community isn't placed on good practice or intelligent(positional, etc) play unless you play a character forced to play slower, and even then it isn't a guarantee


Speed comes from building brain connections slowly, and from understanding built through study and good training. Study of the tools available to you and your opponent, and situations are what also build speed.

So yes, I do think people DD as a single idea and not as a series of individual dashes and/or groups of dashes and this means they have to be farther away in order to react since they're doing so many untrained inputs. I can DD closer because I have trained the threats well.
Over the last two weeks or so I abandoned practicing in the way we talk about for practicing for FAST. I would still win against the people I normally win in locals, but some of the wins would feel really sketchy to me, like I was just barely able to execute what I wanted to do, because I think I was conditioning myself during that practice to go FAST, which is really difficult to do while making decisions FAST, so I'd feel more exhausted at the end of the tourney.

Today I decided to go back to what we've been talking about. I was just practicing dash dancing, and immediately thought about how you said "If you try to play the same way, you'll get thrown off by them putting you into positions where your movements must be more precise or sophisticated than what you practiced. In other words, your practice and application are at odds, which throws you off. " When watching your sets closely, you never seem to be put "off balance" too often. Balancing executing raw inputs AND balancing judgements and decisions in your brain at the same time is difficult enough. That difficulty seems to be amplified when trying to go FAST. I've faced players who were just mindlessly dash dancing and I go up to them and poke them for free, and I've been that player mindlessly dash dancing where I've gotten poked for free. Though everyone gets poked, I've seen Armada hit you during dashes before, so it happens. I've made effort to make my dashes purposeful and I've still gotten hit or made a misplay or whatever, so yeah it happens and we cant all dodge bullets all the time.

With all of this said, how do you maintain Flow while not being bogged down by analysis paralysis mid set? Sometimes in friendlies practice I'll be so observant of my opponent and my own thinking/inputs at the same time that it'll look like I'm playing worse. Then I'll shift into "let go" mode and I'll feel like I'm playing back to normal...but as I write that, I'm starting to think that's where pretty good thinking happens, in that Flow state.
 

Dr Peepee

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Getting hit during dashes will always happen. Did it happen because you got read/outplayed, or because you weren't paying attention? That's a very big difference.

You really should think minimally in tourney. In between stocks or matches is where you can do a little more, but mostly you want to stay in the application and letting go state. Letting go implies relaxation and trust in yourself, and you make it sound opposite to analysis which is tense and overbearing. I think there is a middle ground where you can analyze while letting go, but you have to train yourself to do it. This is what practicing simply helps you to do and is a big part of why I recommend it.
 

Kopaka

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
268
Location
San Diego
Getting hit during dashes will always happen. Did it happen because you got read/outplayed, or because you weren't paying attention? That's a very big difference.

You really should think minimally in tourney. In between stocks or matches is where you can do a little more, but mostly you want to stay in the application and letting go state. Letting go implies relaxation and trust in yourself, and you make it sound opposite to analysis which is tense and overbearing. I think there is a middle ground where you can analyze while letting go, but you have to train yourself to do it. This is what practicing simply helps you to do and is a big part of why I recommend it.
With little examples or resources of high level players also promoting that type of practice, it's hard to get people on the same page as you. It's also been at times easy for me to lose sight of that against players who can steamroll me appearing to be faster than me at everything.
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah most top players don't promote this type of thing in part or full because they don't do it themselves. I think Leffen is probably someone who could do something like this but he doesn't seem like he will talk about it.

Players being faster than you is often more about knowing positions better than it is about better training, which is why those two things go together so well in my opinion. You've tested it for yourself.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
371
"Analysis paralysis" is something I've struggled with too, and mentioned here to you, but you've told me "in friendlies it's fine to not flow," which I've agreed with as a principle, but I also recognize this middle ground where you can more or less do both. I want to cultivate that, but is practicing simply sufficient? Is there anything else I need to keep in mind, or do? I've experienced a state of mind like that - it's also when I play my best - but achieving it right now is sporadic. Apart from practice, is it something I should expect to occur more as my positional understanding increases, because my mind is more free?
 

Dr Peepee

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If you find it to be sporadic, but happening more frequently, then it's something I would expect to come with time. If not, then what I think would be a good idea is to write down everything you did and thought the day you played that way. I did this for myself and found some surprises and useful habits, maybe that can help you.
 

quixotic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
93
What do you think you could have done to beat sfat running forwards after spotdodge at this position?
https://youtu.be/RK_XO_DJeSY?t=9m25s

Also something I've noticed a lot is that when I try to move forwards and swing with nair or fair vs an opponent on a platform and they jump over/shield it, I tend to lose the close up situations afterwards. Do you think marth is in a disadvantage here?
 
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Dr Peepee

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Run in grab is most obvious, but if I was slow to react to beat spotdodge that wouldn't be good. Probably rising Fair in place to hit a shield spacing OR retreating Fair if I'm worried about OOS plays or my own reactions. However I could also just SH in place from a pivot after the dash back to cover movement in, or even pivot WD back to give myself an easier reaction to Fox moving forward. There are other variations of this, but since you asked how to beat the run forward directly that seems sufficient.
 

Kotastic

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Got some questions I would like more clarifications on various matchups, so this is gonna be quite a bit to read. Apologies if it's a bit much, so you're free to answer this in spurts. I've been working a lot on the game and really eliminating sloth from my gameplay.

So in the Fox mu, I really like doing fair --> whatever as a way to force interactions. I particularly like doing them especially if it's in-place or fading back, but I'm not so sure about approaching fair when I want to take space because of it being very susceptible of it being WP. Do you think in particular for approaching/taking space, I should remain grounded or perhaps waveland back?

In the Falco mu, I found out that one of my biggest hole for me getting combo'd hard is that I'm not SDI'ing the shine itself. I'm capable of getting at least 2 inputs by quarter circling, so do you SDI away and up?
https://youtu.be/92tuEbwYC9k?t=35s
-Here, I throw out a side-B to encourage Squid to dair me so I dash back twice. Squid ends up dairing, but he ended up fading back. I'm not so sure how I could best deal with that option aside from hard reading like a DA.
https://youtu.be/92tuEbwYC9k?t=48s
-With my combo sequence after the first up-air, I think I made a mistake for going another up-air. Do you think after the first up-air I should always go for fair because even if they DI out Falco is offstage which is really bad for him?
https://youtu.be/92tuEbwYC9k?t=2m12s
-Here, I always have difficulty deciding what to do when Falco is cornered. I usually like f-smashing the corner against Falco because he likes jumping and could laser out of the corner, but then I get eaten up by roll shine. What could I do to position myself to beat both roll and laser in the corner, or at least position myself with a better chance of winning?

Oh yeah, and the mixup between dashing back and fair/side-B works great against falling dair/laser when i tested it in friendlies. Just to update you on that.

In the Samus mu, I can see why you prefer f-throwing instead of up-throwing in some scenarios. However, Samus can still jump out of f-throw which I need to read, and I find that sometimes I'm susceptible to getting DJ daired after f-throw when I try to read that they won't jump with DA or trying to cover options with fair tech chase. https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=9m49s
Would you always watch out for jumping first?
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=1m34s
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=1m42s
-What should I do when these side-B's get CC'd? I could grab but I'd rather get a harder punishing move if possible.
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=2m8s
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=10m22s
-To prevent cross-ups like this from happening, should I d-tilt/dash back more? I felt the need to shield because I thought he would missile/charge shot, but in retrospect I really should've just jabbed. If it happens though, should I just roll away?
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=2m16s
-I don't think I dealt with this situation very well. Instead of FH, I should react to the projectiles and just jab?
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=3m21s
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=3m32s
-I also feel like I return from the ledge pretty poorly from Samus. What options could I do instead to get back more safely?

Also, in general I find playing against Samus pretty exhausting. I had to up-throw a Samus at like 200%+ to end the set and was pretty exhausted after even just game 1, but unfortunately I don't see other alternatives Marth has because it's pretty hard to edgeguard samus or finding other avenues of killing. I try to cut off options like hit bomb and hogging the ledge when she tethers and the mixups along it, but at the end of the day most of the time I'm killing her on average like at like 100%+. Is that simply just the reality of the mu?
Do you also have tips when Samus has her charge shots? Especially at higher percents, I feel really pressured to shield or FH at lot more than I'd like to, which gives her control. Stuff like this: https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=2m54s
Currently I'm getting away with a lot of these charge shots stuff because for some reason a lot of Samuses like wasting it by the ledge when they're recovering, but I know I will have to deal with the smarter Samuses that use it when the time is right.

Some Falcon clips
https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeFlaccidWerewolfUncleNox
-Here, I faired in place there because he usually raptor boosts in the corner. But he didn't and I got blown up for it. I guess I could've d-tilt after the fair, but in general I don't like d-tilting against Falcon because of this https://clips.twitch.tv/PoorLongCasetteFreakinStinkin. I guess another rising fair?

Against Falcon, one tip I got from an experienced Marth player is that I should always look out for his forward dash commitment. Falcon always commits with a forward dash in mind or else he's really not that threatening. Additionally if he's back dashing, I should just simply take space until he has no more room to back dash.
Now that's just recent advice I got so while I'm thinking about what it entails, I've been really scared of committing against Falcon lately. Like this: https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticSlickLegBabyRage One wrong misstep and I'm just dead. I feel like the only reliable way I'm getting in is by reading their overshoot and dashing in grab, but if I'm wrong then I die for it. Tbh, I don't think the risk/reward for throwing out side-b is really worth it because it I need additional reads to get a grab or something whereas the Falcon would need to WP it once and get a huge combo opening.

Don't got much clips against Sheik as of late, but one problem I have is when I'm fighting a cornered Sheik. This one Sheik player always just stands there in the corner observing what I do, and I would try to WD d-tilt and he would jump fair me for that. If I went any closer to get within spaced jump fair, he would just immediately DA me. Actually, I kind of already know the answer as to what to do, but I feel like the longer I play the Sheik's game by the corner, I lose sight of why cornering is good for me since her escape options also net her a decent reward. What can I remind myself the reason why cornering is so good?
 

Dr Peepee

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o fug

Got some questions I would like more clarifications on various matchups, so this is gonna be quite a bit to read. Apologies if it's a bit much, so you're free to answer this in spurts. I've been working a lot on the game and really eliminating sloth from my gameplay.

So in the Fox mu, I really like doing fair --> whatever as a way to force interactions. I particularly like doing them especially if it's in-place or fading back, but I'm not so sure about approaching fair when I want to take space because of it being very susceptible of it being WP. Do you think in particular for approaching/taking space, I should remain grounded or perhaps waveland back?

In the Falco mu, I found out that one of my biggest hole for me getting combo'd hard is that I'm not SDI'ing the shine itself. I'm capable of getting at least 2 inputs by quarter circling, so do you SDI away and up?
https://youtu.be/92tuEbwYC9k?t=35s
-Here, I throw out a side-B to encourage Squid to dair me so I dash back twice. Squid ends up dairing, but he ended up fading back. I'm not so sure how I could best deal with that option aside from hard reading like a DA.
https://youtu.be/92tuEbwYC9k?t=48s
-With my combo sequence after the first up-air, I think I made a mistake for going another up-air. Do you think after the first up-air I should always go for fair because even if they DI out Falco is offstage which is really bad for him?
https://youtu.be/92tuEbwYC9k?t=2m12s
-Here, I always have difficulty deciding what to do when Falco is cornered. I usually like f-smashing the corner against Falco because he likes jumping and could laser out of the corner, but then I get eaten up by roll shine. What could I do to position myself to beat both roll and laser in the corner, or at least position myself with a better chance of winning?

Oh yeah, and the mixup between dashing back and fair/side-B works great against falling dair/laser when i tested it in friendlies. Just to update you on that.

In the Samus mu, I can see why you prefer f-throwing instead of up-throwing in some scenarios. However, Samus can still jump out of f-throw which I need to read, and I find that sometimes I'm susceptible to getting DJ daired after f-throw when I try to read that they won't jump with DA or trying to cover options with fair tech chase. https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=9m49s
Would you always watch out for jumping first?
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=1m34s
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=1m42s
-What should I do when these side-B's get CC'd? I could grab but I'd rather get a harder punishing move if possible.
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=2m8s
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=10m22s
-To prevent cross-ups like this from happening, should I d-tilt/dash back more? I felt the need to shield because I thought he would missile/charge shot, but in retrospect I really should've just jabbed. If it happens though, should I just roll away?
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=2m16s
-I don't think I dealt with this situation very well. Instead of FH, I should react to the projectiles and just jab?
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=3m21s
https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=3m32s
-I also feel like I return from the ledge pretty poorly from Samus. What options could I do instead to get back more safely?

Also, in general I find playing against Samus pretty exhausting. I had to up-throw a Samus at like 200%+ to end the set and was pretty exhausted after even just game 1, but unfortunately I don't see other alternatives Marth has because it's pretty hard to edgeguard samus or finding other avenues of killing. I try to cut off options like hit bomb and hogging the ledge when she tethers and the mixups along it, but at the end of the day most of the time I'm killing her on average like at like 100%+. Is that simply just the reality of the mu?
Do you also have tips when Samus has her charge shots? Especially at higher percents, I feel really pressured to shield or FH at lot more than I'd like to, which gives her control. Stuff like this: https://youtu.be/pbUpUrYLJww?t=2m54s
Currently I'm getting away with a lot of these charge shots stuff because for some reason a lot of Samuses like wasting it by the ledge when they're recovering, but I know I will have to deal with the smarter Samuses that use it when the time is right.

Some Falcon clips
https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeFlaccidWerewolfUncleNox
-Here, I faired in place there because he usually raptor boosts in the corner. But he didn't and I got blown up for it. I guess I could've d-tilt after the fair, but in general I don't like d-tilting against Falcon because of this https://clips.twitch.tv/PoorLongCasetteFreakinStinkin. I guess another rising fair?

Against Falcon, one tip I got from an experienced Marth player is that I should always look out for his forward dash commitment. Falcon always commits with a forward dash in mind or else he's really not that threatening. Additionally if he's back dashing, I should just simply take space until he has no more room to back dash.
Now that's just recent advice I got so while I'm thinking about what it entails, I've been really scared of committing against Falcon lately. Like this: https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticSlickLegBabyRage One wrong misstep and I'm just dead. I feel like the only reliable way I'm getting in is by reading their overshoot and dashing in grab, but if I'm wrong then I die for it. Tbh, I don't think the risk/reward for throwing out side-b is really worth it because it I need additional reads to get a grab or something whereas the Falcon would need to WP it once and get a huge combo opening.

Don't got much clips against Sheik as of late, but one problem I have is when I'm fighting a cornered Sheik. This one Sheik player always just stands there in the corner observing what I do, and I would try to WD d-tilt and he would jump fair me for that. If I went any closer to get within spaced jump fair, he would just immediately DA me. Actually, I kind of already know the answer as to what to do, but I feel like the longer I play the Sheik's game by the corner, I lose sight of why cornering is good for me since her escape options also net her a decent reward. What can I remind myself the reason why cornering is so good?
Waveland back out of SH? That's not so bad, but I'd like to suggest empty land as an alternative before WL back. Removing that lag that Fair could bring opens up punishes on people trying to whiff punish Fair. You can also run forward and then retreating rising Fair, or run forward slightly retreating rising Fair(basically Fair in place) but the second one obviously comes with more risk. If you want safe options go with retreating Fair or staying grounded or empty land with occasional Dtilts I suppose.

Away and up on shine is usually best, though sometimes just up and going for multiple ups is better.
In that first situation, if Falco had gone deep with Dair you'd have been hit/had to shield since he walked out of laser. I don't think you'll normally beat that option, but you can get close and put a lot of pressure on his landing. If you do read the Dair you could run and Nair and maybe Fair it, and maybe position for Fsmash or running Dtilt or read what he does next and grab or whatever as well. Playing to hit his shield or to get close is still pretty strong against Falco.

I think mixing Fsmash vs Fair in that situation would be pretty good tbh. You can mix weak and strong Fair as well for further mixups.

So this is a little different than just cornering him since you're really close and more importantly out of a punish. Not only could you have just grabbed the tech, but you could have grabbed or done something else out of your empty land too. You tunneled on the Fsmash and that caused you to miss him rolling well before you landed. That being said, you don't need to Fsmash a cornered opponent all that much since they'll usually fear/respect it if you do it sometimes. Change up timing if you are going to do it. Less is more. As for covering roll vs laser, you can stand within jab/Fsmash/whatever range and just react to anything he does besides yolo Dair, which is why I recommend standing slightly farther away sometimes to react with shield grab or pivot grab and then running Fair/side B'ing his laser startup and you can still challenge FH the same pretty much.

Heck yeah glad you got the mixup to work.

Fthrow is good because it puts Samus in a position where if she does jump she can't mix you up by crossing up over your head, meaning your Fair will always be angled well against her if she's low or high often. I don't recommend DA after Fthrow but pushing in and scouting the jump with Fair or otherwise Dtilt'ing or regrabbing or side B'ing or Fair'ing the non jump. Even if Samus doesn't jump on a small stage like FoD she's often going to edge, which should also suck pretty hard for her.

Well in both situations you had a free punish but side B'd. Samus did slow edge getup for one and did a wrong way charge shot while you weren't in lag but put up shield for the other. So that's an Fsmash(tipper on getup for sure) or at least a Dtilt/weak Fair into attempted WD Fsmash or something. I admit I don't know kill setups on Samus but mixing Fsmash and side B when they can't tech Fsmash is still pretty good. You could also do inner vs outer Utilt hit to trip up their DI since sourspot Utilt sends them far out if they hold down, but I don't know percents on that mixup vs Fsmash and side B right now. If you start side B and it goes badly you can always continue side B hopefully rofl, and if you have to take hitting samus up or off the level I think that's fine since at these percents you can get good Utilt kills or solid edgeguard kills or Fsmashes closer to the blastzones.

For the crossups, in both you put yourself in a kinda bad position. For the first, you WD'd in and shielded, I'm assuming hoping he'd move back or shoot or attack your shield I guess. Moving in with Dtilt or controlling space with Fair or something would be best here, but willingly putting yourself within getting hit range and shielding opens you up to be manipulated. Also for the second situation, you were in massive Fsmash lag that he could've punished off the edge so you were lucky to shield at all there. You have to outplay at that point OOS.

FH was probably okay there, but you should have drifted back earlier to prevent Samus from getting under you. This Samus in particular seems unwilling to shoot when you run in, so I'd call their bluff sometimes and just bumrush and attack or get close and pressure lol.

Why are you edgejumping? This Samus is backing off and letting you get onto the lip of the stage for free so just take that.

Yeah I'd just super grind edgeguarding and juggling against her. There are probably some other mixups like out of Fthrow we talked about a little, but I don't know of any kill setups and just beat her in her bad positions. I've heard of jumping out and getting hit by bombs far away is useful, and you can runoff Fair/let go of edge DJ Bair her grapples if you're quick enough I believe. There are also reverse SHs out there you can do to shark Bair/Dair that might be useful to burn her options and occasionally kill early if you take slight/moderate risks. It's something to test.

On platform stages you can just use platforms, but on FD I'd FH too tbh. Just manage your drift so she can't get under you, and look for when she actually shoots. If she sees you running in and never shoots, then push her on that.

I like Fair'ing right on top of Falcon in the corner, and this spacing is definitely uncomfortable to Fair in so I don't recommend it. That said if you are going to Fair here, notice that he SH'd after you shielded so you can SH and drift in to cover his landing, or at least not backward to give him more room to get out. I also wouldn't recommend shielding after Fair'ing from that distance and just dashing/WD'ing back if you're concerned about an attack or Fair'ing again if you're living dangerously.

Dtilt into react. So Dtilt slight walk to get IASA actionable and then you can Fair or at least jab his SH OOS. I think it's a free Fair personally.

Yeah you don't side B except on reaction. Really most of your attacking should be on reaction unless you're close to Falcon. Keep your distance or push in a little to see if you can get that counterhit on his big approaches and from there start moving fully in or back out. Don't be afraid to play a DD game, but also know how to push him since he can't easily get in either don't forget. It may help to play around with playing just neutral, no combos, against Falcons so you can play without fear.

Corner isn't good because you can rush someone down, it's good because they can't beat your sword. Dtilt is a poke meant to often catch dashes back, which you don't need to care about if they're cornered so much. Fair now becomes MUCH stronger and beats jumps, and SHs also go over DA usually. Run forward SH in place and/or retreating Fair can solve problems once again, but the corner is good because it solves a weakness of Marth's: the opponent can't dodge his sword. Dash back destroys Fsmash/Fair but now they have to respect those options much more. They can't WD back OOS after Dtilt either, but you don't need to rush in with Dtilt now since they'll be forced to look for it since they can't move back to dodge it. Basically if you just WD/dash/run in as if you'd Dtilt and then don't commit to it, you'll blow them up for trying to punish. Twitch used to beat me a lot for forcing the Dtilt but Marth is cool in that he gets stronger when you STOP doing things as much as when you start them lol.

Alright I wrote a lot lemme know if that helps.
 

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Thank you very much for answering my questions in detail. Couple more clarifications...

As for FH to avoid stuff like missiles and charge shot, do you think I should also DJ so that I'm able to fastfall, or is that not worth the risk of potentially getting charged shot in the air? Additionally, I wanted to drift in to represent the threat of a falling fair/dair to punish their projectile spam, but I can see why I shouldn't drift in too much. Perhaps with DJ FF it'd be harder to react with drift in?

I might be doing something wrong with the timing of the fair in the corner, but I seem to get DA'd because I do late fair, in which my opponent cuts me off right before my fair comes out. Although I just tested this and it seems like to beat my opponent's specific timing, I have to place the fair as if I'm trying to beat f-tilt.

One more thing is regarding juggling. I'm very fascinated with how efficiently you took Armada's stock with this: https://youtu.be/2GDs_3ubpDM?t=9m57s
After seeing that, I've been really seeing how my SH/FH/jump fair range affects my opponents when they come down, and most of them do an attack which I've been either getting an f-smash or fair. However, there's some opponents that just try to drift away as much as possible while I try to cover center. Is it fine to just let them go to corner like what you said earlier about the advantages Marth has against cornered opponents?

Also, how the hell do you juggle puff? I know you said count her jumps, but her aerial drift is so good and at any point she can choose to attack on the way down. Again, is maintaining center the most important?
 
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Dr Peepee

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I don't think you need to DJ, but if you do it a little farther away it's okay. You want to watch for being sniped is the main thing. And you can still threaten to hit but you should hit after drifting in, and not be so close to them at the apex of your jump if that makes sense.

Just don't Fair and then dash back out of empty land sometimes, you don't always need to Fair, or always do anything for that matter.

If someone drifts away, then move with them but stay closer to center. It's like being at a diagonal. Then you can hit them if they go away still or at least have an edgeguard, and if they come in you'll be able to easily react too. If they do get to the corner though that's still pretty good.

The diagonal is what you want to use against Puff as well. She usually won't come straight down into you, and usually won't use all 5 jumps. That narrows it down to 2-4 jumps. You don't want her crossing you up over your head, so maintain the diagonal if you can. Use SH/FH fakes and Fair/Uair as needed with the mixup of Utilt and DD/shield grab. You have to think of her drift like an aerial DD and dash with her, always maintaining position. Once she gets in range of instant DJ Uair/Fair you can begin doing more aggressive fakes. Use platforms if she's higher up. Too much to fit into one recommendation but that'll get you started.
 

quixotic

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PP what do you think about using 2 or 3 dtilts on hit? At low percent dtilt is about +0 on hit so you might not want to press your advantage too hard and using dtilt can build percent and keep you safe/in center.
 
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AirFair

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I am currently working a lot on adjusting in neutral, and I've hit a weird block where I can't seem to understand how I can fight from standing.

Basically, if I get into a range vs my opponent and then they immediately come forward, I am stuck on whether I should attack first (grab/fair in place) or dash back and then attack. The reason is that I don't want to just swing or attack for no reason, since that is not something marth wants to do, since attacking in place will lose to them backing up and give them a punish. I would often move back in these scenarios to confirm an approach, but that can be punished by overshooting when I do it from too close, and it gives them punishes/stage.

I think that in these situations, dashing back is useful to put distance between me and the opponent, and then I can decide to run in grab or pivot fair or something, but I would get hit at times since I decided to dash away too late. I also think that at TR, confirming an approach is kinda difficult, since they could just be moving in a bunch before they back up, and it's not as easy as confirming it off of a dash back where you have the space to set up a response. This makes me less confident in attacking in place, drifting forward.

How can I play more effectively in these situations where I am standing and they act? It seems like I have transitioned into in fighting in those moments where I now have to decide what they are doing and can't react as easily. I know that standing is supposed to make this easier, but this part still confuses me, as I'm trying to put my answer in terms of marth's rules (less is more) too.
 

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Unfortunately the vod for this of myself is lost, but I have a question that has me concerned about the Marth Sheik mu.

Awhile ago, I fought this sheik main whose main tactic was to run up really close to me and CC anything I had and grab/d-tilt me. He would intentionally overshoot my d-tilt to get the weak hit and immediately grab me off of it or if I did a tipper fair in place he would still be able to dash out of it and grab me. This is an apparent issue at like pre-50% ish and for some reason I forgot to ask about this. Stuff like this
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=26s
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=2m28s
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=5m21s

This has resurfaced again where a friend of mine was using this tactic to sort of invalidate my d-tilt and aerials in place. To counteract his strategy, I would just end up running grab instead of using my sword except maybe dair as a callout, but overall I didn't feel comfortable having access to my typical zoning tools and that better players could mix this up as a way to discourage me to poke at lower percents. What would you suggest?
 

AirFair

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Unfortunately the vod for this of myself is lost, but I have a question that has me concerned about the Marth Sheik mu.

Awhile ago, I fought this sheik main whose main tactic was to run up really close to me and CC anything I had and grab/d-tilt me. He would intentionally overshoot my d-tilt to get the weak hit and immediately grab me off of it or if I did a tipper fair in place he would still be able to dash out of it and grab me. This is an apparent issue at like pre-50% ish and for some reason I forgot to ask about this. Stuff like this
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=26s
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=2m28s
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=5m21s

This has resurfaced again where a friend of mine was using this tactic to sort of invalidate my d-tilt and aerials in place. To counteract his strategy, I would just end up running grab instead of using my sword except maybe dair as a callout, but overall I didn't feel comfortable having access to my typical zoning tools and that better players could mix this up as a way to discourage me to poke at lower percents. What would you suggest?
Vs people who use cc a lot, You could probably threaten to poke and get them to do something instead of poking them like that where they get a cc punish. If you use run in and pivot grab, you can discourage them from using cc, which can open up your zoning tools again once they adjust to you beating them for trying to cc.

in the first situation, it doesn't look like sheik cc'd at all, but hyprid tried to grab when he was standing too close to sheik. If they were holding down after their wd they probably could have cc'd the dtilt. Maybe hyprid should have let the position reset and not tried to get that hit at that percent?

the second situation it seems like sheik clearly wanted to cc that fair, and hyprid could have been safe if he had drifted back before doing it, which could have tippered and sheik wouldn't be able to punish the spaced fair.

the third situation I feel like hyprid could have played it a little bit differently. Hyprid was spaced to beat sheik's moves in place, but she could also have walked/wd forward into tilts or something. I think that he could sh and wait and maybe threaten a fair to keep her cornered. Would have to look at it more than I can rn lol.
 

Dr Peepee

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Sorry for slow reply today but I went to my parents' place and had an eye appointment.

PP what do you think about using 2 or 3 dtilts on hit? At low percent dtilt is about +0 on hit so you might not want to press your advantage too hard and using dtilt can build percent and keep you safe/in center.
I think it can be okay, but if someone is pushing in on hit or shielding I'd rather use this new spacing advantage to react out of Dtilt and punish with Fair/grab/some other high-return play if possible. Sometimes multi Dtilt is great but usually on hit I'm fine with just one, 2 occasionally if they strongly push in but you aren't sure how else to punish/want to deter them coming in overall or after Dtilt hit.

I am currently working a lot on adjusting in neutral, and I've hit a weird block where I can't seem to understand how I can fight from standing.

Basically, if I get into a range vs my opponent and then they immediately come forward, I am stuck on whether I should attack first (grab/fair in place) or dash back and then attack. The reason is that I don't want to just swing or attack for no reason, since that is not something marth wants to do, since attacking in place will lose to them backing up and give them a punish. I would often move back in these scenarios to confirm an approach, but that can be punished by overshooting when I do it from too close, and it gives them punishes/stage.

I think that in these situations, dashing back is useful to put distance between me and the opponent, and then I can decide to run in grab or pivot fair or something, but I would get hit at times since I decided to dash away too late. I also think that at TR, confirming an approach is kinda difficult, since they could just be moving in a bunch before they back up, and it's not as easy as confirming it off of a dash back where you have the space to set up a response. This makes me less confident in attacking in place, drifting forward.

How can I play more effectively in these situations where I am standing and they act? It seems like I have transitioned into in fighting in those moments where I now have to decide what they are doing and can't react as easily. I know that standing is supposed to make this easier, but this part still confuses me, as I'm trying to put my answer in terms of marth's rules (less is more) too.
Defense/acting second is not something I prefer to do either but it's just as useful as offense. I think there are probably two main ways I'd respond to this right now.

The first is you want free reads. Aerial in place/retreating or use Dtilt so you can control space and jumping will also send a cue for a free read. Do they challenge? Do they try to rush it down anyway? If you do aerial, do they attack just after? Also, WD/dash back can also give you a read. Do they keep going? Do they show they were just trying to take stage and back up? Use your information. All possibilities can't be accounted for, but you need to use your tools and knowledge to see what they like to do, and you want to find out sensibly.

The other thing is look at how you got into the position. What were you doing right before standing, and how would this influence the opponent? What did they do? Standing for standing's sake isn't good, and you're supposed to make your actions you do make meaningful. Even standing still is a decision since you're letting them make a move, or changing your timing from what you did before(and standing as they make moves that you could respond to is also a decision, also communicating something....so you see there is still a lot going on when you stand).

If you find yourself standing without purpose, it can be okay to move a little more. The point isn't to do literally nothing exactly but to make your actions count. Let me know if that works out any better for you.

Unfortunately the vod for this of myself is lost, but I have a question that has me concerned about the Marth Sheik mu.

Awhile ago, I fought this sheik main whose main tactic was to run up really close to me and CC anything I had and grab/d-tilt me. He would intentionally overshoot my d-tilt to get the weak hit and immediately grab me off of it or if I did a tipper fair in place he would still be able to dash out of it and grab me. This is an apparent issue at like pre-50% ish and for some reason I forgot to ask about this. Stuff like this
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=26s
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=2m28s
https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=5m21s

This has resurfaced again where a friend of mine was using this tactic to sort of invalidate my d-tilt and aerials in place. To counteract his strategy, I would just end up running grab instead of using my sword except maybe dair as a callout, but overall I didn't feel comfortable having access to my typical zoning tools and that better players could mix this up as a way to discourage me to poke at lower percents. What would you suggest?
Tippering Dtilt beats this since you can still act out of it safely, and I believe late, spaced Fair can be alright vs ASDI down but less sure about crouch(though I do think it could lose to drift in or you'd have to shield then in some cases). The WD Dtilt you did in your last clip would've worked fine if you did it pretty quickly out of WD/reacted more quickly. The RC Dtilt you did in the first clip is something you want to do less of in general since control over that is worse and it's slower. Mixing that with grab should be totally fine. Working more standing Dtilt or walk Dtilt or certain WD Dtilts will beat this in my experience, as well as well placed Fairs. If you're worried about Fair getting beaten you can space a little in front of Sheik so it'll hit Ftilt/walk in and even hit her running in but if she crouches it'll whiff and you'll still be in good position to threaten Fsmash or just control with Dtilt. Let me know if that helps.
 

AirFair

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I'll definitely let you know how it feels. Thanks for your answer, as this has been pretty confusing to think about for awhile. Hope your eyes are fine.
 

Kotastic

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What do you normally do when the sheik does AC/late fair in place? Do you try to punish the fair itself or moreso observe what they do afterwards? For sheiks that do fair --> f-tilt or jabs, I tend to shield but I feel really uncomfortable doing that as it kind of invites me to get grabbed if they wait a second. I know if they dash back, d-tilt cleanly beats that.
 

Dr Peepee

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I think you can Fair over it or Dtilt the lag, but if you're a bit slow or the position is just harder then you at least get pressure off of it/stuff what they do next. To do this, you need to be starting fairly close and can't really rush in upon seeing them jump unless you jump and drift really early maybe. These options will beat Ftilt and jab. I'd recommend testing it so you can get a feel for the interaction since it's important.

If you can't get a move out in time, then yeah you just play the next position as you see them jump. Getting closer to Dtilt/Fair them coming in is usually pretty good, but of course you can always move in and then move back for free info.
 

Kotastic

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When looking to reactively punish corner situation, like say Falco in the corner, what cues do you look for when trying to make the most out of a corner situation? I have trouble reactively covering Falco's FH and roll shine that often I have to go for reads.
 

Dr Peepee

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When looking to reactively punish corner situation, like say Falco in the corner, what cues do you look for when trying to make the most out of a corner situation? I have trouble reactively covering Falco's FH and roll shine that often I have to go for reads.
Have you practiced just playing with Falco in the corner and you run the situation a lot? What about vice versa? I'm not sure what cues I'd use specifically since I can pretty reliably react to both, but I'd like to remind you of something I saw before in a match of yours where you acted and didn't react to what they did in the middle of it. It may be best to not tunnel vision on options and just poke/watch him more and practice punishing what he can do from that position.

Is there a way to punish puff's landing aerials into crouch in these spots? I feel like I can't punish puff's jumps so she just takes space from me.

https://youtu.be/Ue7yTvUtRCg?t=16s
https://youtu.be/Ue7yTvUtRCg?t=2m38s
https://youtu.be/Ue7yTvUtRCg?t=3m22s
For the last two clips I believe you can run JC grab the landing lag of both of those since they were all or mostly drift in. For the first since it was an Uair you could maybe grab it, but you might have to settle for mixing up dash grab on the crouch vs trying to middle/late Fair mixup or run up Nair(I kind of like this option sometimes as it catches jumps and is fine vs shield and crouch and can combo well at lower percents).
 

Arakune

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Hey PP, My patience for Sheik is really reaching it's limits. I've gotten much better vs falcon since the last time you gave me advice, but there were only a few aspects of the MU I really consistently struggled with, Sheik on the other hand is an absolute nightmare. I've gotten to what I'd consider mid-high level (top 8 out of 100 entrants average) but still I consistently lose to sheiks that are considered significantly below my level. I've lost to 5 different sheik players who're considered below me by a significant enough margin to be called an "upset" Just in the last 3 weeks alone. The really disheartening part is I've spent a lot of time reading, watching videos, and trying to study and understand what I can't beat about Sheik, but it feels hopeless. I'll list my problems in no particular order.

1. i can't deal with her neutral game mixups. Needles make everything 100,000 times harder than it needs to be and the hitlag from swinging into them means even if she misses they're devastating and you eat a fat punish. This basically means if she camps with needles on a platform you can't approach her from center stage (making it a bad position somehow) and if she throws some needles that miss, marth suddenly loses his ENTIRE neutral game except for dashdance grab, which is easily read by the sheik with an overshoot boost grab or dash attack.

2. I don't know how you can stop downsmash. This one sounds pretty simple for someone who's high level at the game, but seriously **** this move. I've labbed out shielding it and shield DIing every direction and frankly you have like a 3 frame window to WD grab it if your timing is perfect, almost every other punish can be CC'd and punished. Seriously, what the hell do I do against this attack on shield/crouch/whatever. Sheik players literally spam it against me.

3. Her ledgegame is absurd. Shino stalling will punish marth for even being near the ledge, as will her ledgedash, but she can mix up her timing and the options she comes on stage better than any other character i feel. She has amazing options off the ledge too, fair, ledgedash grab, ledgedash dsmash, ledgedash tilts/jabs, ledgedash boost grab, ledgedash dash attack, etc. The solutions to punishing shino stalling like marth killering and simply WDing back at the perfect time are telegraphed and frankly I find them too hard to microspace and end up getting clipped constantly. Which of course leads to a full combo for sheik.

4. Maybe the most frustrating part of the matchup is how options that are good vs other characters do nothing to sheik. One example is tech chasing. Tech chasing Is very hard vs sheik (incredible tech roll, incredible spotdodge, incredible options out of spotdodge like her super fast grab or tilts) and a mistake vs her is devastating. You can't really survive her platform tech chases, as regrabbing makes slideoff DI useless. She can kill you off a single jump read in one attack at any percent from pretty much any spot on the stage except when she's backed into the corner herself. Lightshielding on platforms inbetween stocks doesn't work because she can smack you off the platform then instantly fair/ftilt to punish you if you fall, and she can simply react if you instantly jump once you slideoff with like a fullhop fair and marth is in a terrible spot to challenge it. Getting down against her feels impossible, escaping from "pseudo-combos" where she just follows you around and uses superior hitboxes to stuff you every time you try to do anything, or react to you doing "weird stuff" like airdodging or using platform movement basically means that if she gets you out of center stage once, you will never return to it and are dead 100% of the time. The tilt factor vs her is absolutely immense. You can be ahead 3 stocks and it still feels like you're losing with no chance of winning. This "bad feeling" always comes true no matter how smart or safe you play.

5. This is just the icing on the cake, but with a combination of sami angle, doublepoof, mixups between going to platform/on stage, and amsah tech which is consistent, marth literally can't even edgeguard sheik. Idk what to say about this one. **** this character.

6. I have no guaranteed throw setups at high percent. Marth's raw attacks basically never kill her. If they send her offstage she can always recover because of #5 up until about 180%. Rinse repeating is simply too hard and while I can hit it 3, 4, 8 times in a row sometimes, i always eventually make an extremely minor mistake and they make it back. This is nightmare fuel combined with her wobbling-equivalent punish game and virtually unwinnable neutral.

7. Marth's punishes don't work on her because she has a weird weight/fall speed combo that allows her to "combo break". This is another thing i'd say is "the most frustrating thing about the matchup" if I hadn't said it like 4 times already. With a lot of characters like spacies or falcon, you can get creative and extend combos by using strange hitboxes, specifically weak and reverse hits, to continue combos longer. But vs Sheik and in the ditto specifically, they get out of hitstun if you use the incorrect hitbox and can actually start a combo on you for hitting them in midair. Recognizing these scenarios is hard enough when I'm just trying to extend my punish game, but when i reverse bair sheik and get faired and she lands on the platform into ftilt into a full conversion, I wanna literally die.

8. Sheik has shield pressure that's actually good. What is this character. I've watched the SSBM tutorials video on sheik shield pressure and i've labbed out punishing it several times, but the reality is it's a mixup which is heavily in the sheik's favor. If she fairs your shield, it's safe and she can act first, if you continue shielding and she grabs, you lose. If you try to grab her assuming she'll grab, you lose. If you spotdodge her grab, she'll grab again and you lose. Roll can be covered on reaction with dash attack. You lose. But assuming sheik doesn't close out 100% of your options by fair grabbing, and assuming she jabs or does something else, it's still a mixup. If she does a jab and you try to grab after, you can grab her. But if you try to grab after the first jab and she does a doublejab, the second jab will hit you and she can jab grab or jab dsmash or whatever and punish. If you anticipate she'll do both jabs, you can grab after that... Unless she does an uptilt or dsmash or something after. Uptilt isn't punishable unless you grab inbetween the two hits (something you can't mash and need to time, thanks sakurai.) and it true combos into itself for pressure. Again, why is this even in the game.

To be honest with you PP, There's so many problems in this matchup and many of them are so grossly overpowered or feel like they have absolutely zero counterplay beyond the sheik player playing lazy or aggressively, that I'm at the point of basically giving up on the matchup. Even when a sheik plays aggressively just the extremely low level mixup of fair, dash attack, and boost grab feels like it shuts down marth's dash dance entirely. I'm at a complete loss, any advice you have on ANY of the sections would mean a lot to me.
 

Kotastic

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Hey PP. I would've beaten a very good Falco player..if I didn't flub my edgeguards like 5 times in a row. Needless to say, that tilted me throughout the game (was last game), chastised myself, and I lost composure and made myself extremely obvious with WD f-smash. I did manage to recompose myself the next stock but it was too late.

I know you have said that one way to help keep myself from feeling bad from a loss is to think of what I would say to a very close friend of mine. In the moment though, I couldn't think of anything but the moment at hand, thinking that I ****ing suck for missing easy edgeguards that would've won me the game. I managed to take deep breathes my next stock, but the damage was done. I'm thinking of perhaps planking the ledge next time to recompose myself, but I guess otherwise you have tips for recomposing myself faster without the need to planking?

Also, I had the privilege to talk to him afterwards talking about mentality since he used to be a top player of another game. He told me that thinking of such negative thoughts is unproductive, and that I should simply let go...and learn. Funny enough, I've been trying to learn from all my mistakes and see how I can grow from it as a major theme of my mentality. That's not news to me. However...I've always still found it extremely hard for myself to not feel bad, even after your advice. It's significantly better, yes. I have cooled down significantly faster than before. But the feeling of worthlessness is still there even after extensive meditations. I guess I've been conditioned since childhood to think that way, and upon further self-reflection something needs to change. However, I still find it uneasy to just...not say "I suck." Especially in the moment. There are sooooooooooo much more I can improve on. Are there moments where saying that is beneficial in some way? Hell, this could extent to the real world like failing a test that's worth half your grade. I've ALWAYS felt bad and worthless for getting bad grades...so I don't get them often. And never once did I think that I shouldn't feel disappointed/worthless for a bad grade. Apologies if this is too philosophical to your liking, but I think hearing your input about the root of things will help me change the way how I naturally think about losses/mess-ups.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Hey PP, My patience for Sheik is really reaching it's limits. I've gotten much better vs falcon since the last time you gave me advice, but there were only a few aspects of the MU I really consistently struggled with, Sheik on the other hand is an absolute nightmare. I've gotten to what I'd consider mid-high level (top 8 out of 100 entrants average) but still I consistently lose to sheiks that are considered significantly below my level. I've lost to 5 different sheik players who're considered below me by a significant enough margin to be called an "upset" Just in the last 3 weeks alone. The really disheartening part is I've spent a lot of time reading, watching videos, and trying to study and understand what I can't beat about Sheik, but it feels hopeless. I'll list my problems in no particular order.

1. i can't deal with her neutral game mixups. Needles make everything 100,000 times harder than it needs to be and the hitlag from swinging into them means even if she misses they're devastating and you eat a fat punish. This basically means if she camps with needles on a platform you can't approach her from center stage (making it a bad position somehow) and if she throws some needles that miss, marth suddenly loses his ENTIRE neutral game except for dashdance grab, which is easily read by the sheik with an overshoot boost grab or dash attack.

2. I don't know how you can stop downsmash. This one sounds pretty simple for someone who's high level at the game, but seriously **** this move. I've labbed out shielding it and shield DIing every direction and frankly you have like a 3 frame window to WD grab it if your timing is perfect, almost every other punish can be CC'd and punished. Seriously, what the hell do I do against this attack on shield/crouch/whatever. Sheik players literally spam it against me.

3. Her ledgegame is absurd. Shino stalling will punish marth for even being near the ledge, as will her ledgedash, but she can mix up her timing and the options she comes on stage better than any other character i feel. She has amazing options off the ledge too, fair, ledgedash grab, ledgedash dsmash, ledgedash tilts/jabs, ledgedash boost grab, ledgedash dash attack, etc. The solutions to punishing shino stalling like marth killering and simply WDing back at the perfect time are telegraphed and frankly I find them too hard to microspace and end up getting clipped constantly. Which of course leads to a full combo for sheik.

4. Maybe the most frustrating part of the matchup is how options that are good vs other characters do nothing to sheik. One example is tech chasing. Tech chasing Is very hard vs sheik (incredible tech roll, incredible spotdodge, incredible options out of spotdodge like her super fast grab or tilts) and a mistake vs her is devastating. You can't really survive her platform tech chases, as regrabbing makes slideoff DI useless. She can kill you off a single jump read in one attack at any percent from pretty much any spot on the stage except when she's backed into the corner herself. Lightshielding on platforms inbetween stocks doesn't work because she can smack you off the platform then instantly fair/ftilt to punish you if you fall, and she can simply react if you instantly jump once you slideoff with like a fullhop fair and marth is in a terrible spot to challenge it. Getting down against her feels impossible, escaping from "pseudo-combos" where she just follows you around and uses superior hitboxes to stuff you every time you try to do anything, or react to you doing "weird stuff" like airdodging or using platform movement basically means that if she gets you out of center stage once, you will never return to it and are dead 100% of the time. The tilt factor vs her is absolutely immense. You can be ahead 3 stocks and it still feels like you're losing with no chance of winning. This "bad feeling" always comes true no matter how smart or safe you play.

5. This is just the icing on the cake, but with a combination of sami angle, doublepoof, mixups between going to platform/on stage, and amsah tech which is consistent, marth literally can't even edgeguard sheik. Idk what to say about this one. **** this character.

6. I have no guaranteed throw setups at high percent. Marth's raw attacks basically never kill her. If they send her offstage she can always recover because of #5 up until about 180%. Rinse repeating is simply too hard and while I can hit it 3, 4, 8 times in a row sometimes, i always eventually make an extremely minor mistake and they make it back. This is nightmare fuel combined with her wobbling-equivalent punish game and virtually unwinnable neutral.

7. Marth's punishes don't work on her because she has a weird weight/fall speed combo that allows her to "combo break". This is another thing i'd say is "the most frustrating thing about the matchup" if I hadn't said it like 4 times already. With a lot of characters like spacies or falcon, you can get creative and extend combos by using strange hitboxes, specifically weak and reverse hits, to continue combos longer. But vs Sheik and in the ditto specifically, they get out of hitstun if you use the incorrect hitbox and can actually start a combo on you for hitting them in midair. Recognizing these scenarios is hard enough when I'm just trying to extend my punish game, but when i reverse bair sheik and get faired and she lands on the platform into ftilt into a full conversion, I wanna literally die.

8. Sheik has shield pressure that's actually good. What is this character. I've watched the SSBM tutorials video on sheik shield pressure and i've labbed out punishing it several times, but the reality is it's a mixup which is heavily in the sheik's favor. If she fairs your shield, it's safe and she can act first, if you continue shielding and she grabs, you lose. If you try to grab her assuming she'll grab, you lose. If you spotdodge her grab, she'll grab again and you lose. Roll can be covered on reaction with dash attack. You lose. But assuming sheik doesn't close out 100% of your options by fair grabbing, and assuming she jabs or does something else, it's still a mixup. If she does a jab and you try to grab after, you can grab her. But if you try to grab after the first jab and she does a doublejab, the second jab will hit you and she can jab grab or jab dsmash or whatever and punish. If you anticipate she'll do both jabs, you can grab after that... Unless she does an uptilt or dsmash or something after. Uptilt isn't punishable unless you grab inbetween the two hits (something you can't mash and need to time, thanks sakurai.) and it true combos into itself for pressure. Again, why is this even in the game.

To be honest with you PP, There's so many problems in this matchup and many of them are so grossly overpowered or feel like they have absolutely zero counterplay beyond the sheik player playing lazy or aggressively, that I'm at the point of basically giving up on the matchup. Even when a sheik plays aggressively just the extremely low level mixup of fair, dash attack, and boost grab feels like it shuts down marth's dash dance entirely. I'm at a complete loss, any advice you have on ANY of the sections would mean a lot to me.
ooookay, well the first thing I'd say is I felt this way a lot about Sheik until Druggedfox went over a couple matches with me. Even as a top player I thought it was really dumb and was afraid of it. But I'll see if I can offer some useful input into these things, even if they may be harder to put into use for you(I think this matchup is pretty dumb for Marth until you become really efficient, like most Marth matchups).

1. I'm going to be honest, I don't really understand exactly what you're struggling against here. Is it platform needles only? Grounded and platform? How is she getting grabs from the platform unless she's running off with needles?? I don't know. Anyway, Sheik jumping up to a platform is a prime time to hit her and you can swipe her through the needles. Also, I think shielding needles is generally not helpful since you're really telegraphed OOS with WD or Fair so I often prefer to dodge if she's on a platform or just take the needles if she's grounded. You may have a habit of over DD which would give Sheik more time to charge and more shots on you. It may help to DD a little less and work on fighting closer to her, especially when she charges. I find fighting closer to Sheik discourages needles, and if you work your Dtilt and Fair in this space that normally worries about grab/DA then you can beat those moves and still threaten her Ftilt well with grab. Staying farther away lets her needle and yolo game be stronger in my experience.

2. I don't know all of the lab stuff vs Dsmash. Sometimes I can shield grab sometimes I can't. I just know that when Sheik is running up, if I Dtilt in place then she can't really beat it if I tipper. She also won't usually hit if I SH on reaction since it goes over most of her threats, and vs Dsmash I can drift back to hit her or just land and punish depending on your read confidence. Again, I have to wonder if over-DD is killing you here.

3. Something easy to do here is to stand just out of range of edgedash Ftilt and hold down. If she comes up you can Dtilt her and she can't really do anything about it. If she gets on the lip of the stage then she's just cornered against Marth and this makes your Dtilt/Fair/Fsmash way stronger. You can also occasionally mix grabbing the edge, but as you said that can seriously backfire. Finding another way to experiment with the Dtilt play will be useful though.

4. I know that feel. Getting down the understanding and the practice really helped me a lot here, hopefully it will for you too.

5. If you work more runoff Fair, other Fairs or Bairs going out there, you can often beat her before she can do that mixup. This helped me A LOT and it's honestly way simpler than just holding edge and dealing with that nonsense lol.

6. I like sourspot Utilt vs her recovery sometimes, not sure if you've tried that. Anyway, when possible I like mixing up Fthrow vs tipper Fsmash if tipper won't kill since the DI that helps vs one kills for the other. Also, if you hit Sheik high then that opens up some DJ Uair/Utilt kills so if you can at least get stronger at juggling or edgeguarding then that will help streamline your game. Sheik's poor aerial mobility and not great moves below her really make her dislike being above Marth.

7. Yeah this is something practice/Kadano's chart can partially solve, but also if you think they'll break out you can just let them jump and then follow with Fair/Uair or hit them with a similar move when they're lower to the ground.

8. If you hold down and mash A if she Fairs your shield, it beats her doing any amount of jabs and also tilts if you can ASDI down those. It loses to dash back primarily but at least it's a 50/50 then. Still not great, but Marth OOS isn't great lol.

Hope that helps some man, this is definitely a nightmare matchup until you really know it I think.

Hey PP. I would've beaten a very good Falco player..if I didn't flub my edgeguards like 5 times in a row. Needless to say, that tilted me throughout the game (was last game), chastised myself, and I lost composure and made myself extremely obvious with WD f-smash. I did manage to recompose myself the next stock but it was too late.

I know you have said that one way to help keep myself from feeling bad from a loss is to think of what I would say to a very close friend of mine. In the moment though, I couldn't think of anything but the moment at hand, thinking that I ****ing suck for missing easy edgeguards that would've won me the game. I managed to take deep breathes my next stock, but the damage was done. I'm thinking of perhaps planking the ledge next time to recompose myself, but I guess otherwise you have tips for recomposing myself faster without the need to planking?

Also, I had the privilege to talk to him afterwards talking about mentality since he used to be a top player of another game. He told me that thinking of such negative thoughts is unproductive, and that I should simply let go...and learn. Funny enough, I've been trying to learn from all my mistakes and see how I can grow from it as a major theme of my mentality. That's not news to me. However...I've always still found it extremely hard for myself to not feel bad, even after your advice. It's significantly better, yes. I have cooled down significantly faster than before. But the feeling of worthlessness is still there even after extensive meditations. I guess I've been conditioned since childhood to think that way, and upon further self-reflection something needs to change. However, I still find it uneasy to just...not say "I suck." Especially in the moment. There are sooooooooooo much more I can improve on. Are there moments where saying that is beneficial in some way? Hell, this could extent to the real world like failing a test that's worth half your grade. I've ALWAYS felt bad and worthless for getting bad grades...so I don't get them often. And never once did I think that I shouldn't feel disappointed/worthless for a bad grade. Apologies if this is too philosophical to your liking, but I think hearing your input about the root of things will help me change the way how I naturally think about losses/mess-ups.
Well let's address the beneficial question first. Is it true that if you motivate yourself by pain you will produce some good, even great results? Yes, and that is a large part of what I used as a rising player, this hatred of losing and of myself, which are obviously deeper issues as you've said. So can you grow and improve using pain? Absolutely. To me though, it seems this strategy will hit a wall eventually whether it's because too much pain is involved or not enough love is, or whatever. I got lucky and only hit a wall after becoming a top player, but many aren't so lucky.

Let me change how I normally answer this a little bit here too. WHY do we get sad when we lose, or angry when we make mistakes? It's because we care a lot in part. No matter how healthy your outlook is, you can and for some time will experience at least sadness if not also anger after a difficult loss. When you put so much on the line to compete, and then you get told it's not enough, that's always going to be really hard to handle. However there are extra things we ALSO can put on this result of "I lost" that make it worse. In itself "I lost" is just a thing that happened. What meaning we give it is what determines our emotional reaction. Do we say "I lost, which means I'm not good enough as a person like I always knew?" Could we not also say "I lost, and I thought I could do better so I'm sad, but I know I can overcome this by working harder and trusting myself?" The only difference, ultimately, is what you choose to say to this result that inherently has no meaning. And it IS a choice, but it can be really difficult to change. We often are accustomed to thinking certain ways from an early age, and this is reinforced by parents, peers, society. We have to consciously decide how we want to handle difficulties and how to grow and create our own best selves, which involves being different. It's why successful people are often so weird, they have to think differently.

This leads me back to what I normally say. If you want to change your thinking, you train it. Daily. You put yourself in that situation where you lost to this Falco player and freaked out and started getting down on yourself as it happened and afterward and you remember what you thought when you got challenged. And you did think something that put you into that state. You want to change it to something healthy and powerful. And if you don't believe it, and you struggle to convince yourself it's right even after substituting it in your mind, then use your body. Affirm it out loud and while doing pushups, or while running, or while in a yoga pose. Physical work does help engage your mind and create more powerful connections, so I wouldn't dismiss this.

Equally, if not most importantly, this is about caring enough to change it. Not just after losing, but in a consistent way. You have to REALLY WANT IT to make these changes because that's the only way it'll stick. If you don't, then everything I just said is worthless. It's up to you.
 

Kotastic

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Thanks. A lot. I didn't think about using my body as well, so I'll be sure to extend this with my exercising. I think also a big component is also extending this to my day-to-day life. I'll be sure to think about how I naturally address those things too.

I'll let you know if things change by...say the end of the spring quarter, see if anything changes.
 

Zorcey

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Got a loooooot of questions for you today PP, just want to mention in advance how much I appreciate this thread again haha no flame plz (I sorry):

Despite common belief DL is Marth’s worst stage, and that I agree theoretically (his punish game is made harder by the high side platforms; it being the biggest stage makes his sword less threatening), I think it’s my strongest stage sans FD on fastfallers. Some things I’ve noticed is that I win Neutral the most on DL, and my reaction techchases are pretty strong (though I have more trouble converting them into a combo when they get to a percent I should start uthrowing than stages with lower platforms). I’m not sure if this is because I feel more comfortable with reacting on DL, but I definitely feel with more space I have a better sense of what's reactable and what isn’t. Also it's much, much easier for me to maintain TR and mess with it intelligently here. What I don’t understand is why this doesn’t apply to say, BF. I understand why I have a tendency to overextend or not know what’s reactable on smaller maps, but BF really isn’t that much smaller than DL? Overall I want to determine how I can translate my strengths on DL to stages that are traditionally better for Marth, and how to go about that.

How does one determine what in a matchup is reactable? DruggedFox said awhile back he thinks many mid-level players are held back by trying to react to unreactble things, and going for reads in situations where they can react. This is certainly the case with me, and I get the feeling if I just keep studying positions it'll help, but I'm wondering if you have any other advice for this specific thing.

I've noticed the weakest parts of my gameplay - regardless of matchup - are dealing with defensive options. I'll often find myself with a lead early on, but then my opponents start using more FHs, shields, back dashes, and abuse the ledge, all of which are hard for me. I guess I'll ask about each of these from a broadish perspective and see what it is I'm looking to get:

Versus FH, this tends to be most problematic with spacies. Against Fox you've said you can't do much about it without a read or being very close and you just have to maybe punish the lag, but I'm not sure where to position myself to accomplish this. (Writing this out, this could be because I'm assuming an aggressive intention in the FH when it probably doesn't exist.) What tends to happen is I'll look to punish their landing, but then the spacie starts platform camping. I try to Fair/Uair them, whiff, and get Bair'd or something. It's the mixup between going to platform/aerial/empty landing that I feel like I can't challenge. This is especially hard to deal with at very low percents when my aerials don't knock down unless I get a tipper and they've hit around 20%. What advice do you have for beating defensive versus aggressive FHs?

Versus shields, my problems generally occur when a character has good OoS options, but tbh shield alone may be my biggest enemy lol. I don't really know how to pressure their shield safely as Marth, so I'm generally either grabbing or doing a crossup aerial. (Maybe I should implement empty lands to bait shieldgrabs or Dtilt more?) Often I get shut down by aerials OoS, or silly things like spotdodge Shines. Part of my problem is due to the fact that many opponents start trying to get far away from me when they get defensive, and so when I dash in they just shield on reaction - either I get nothing because I stay safe, or get punished for bad spacing on an approaching aerial/a really obvious grab. How do I make shielding a bad option for them?

Versus opponents on the ledge, I think I'm too aggressive. I don't want to let them back on the stage, but this results in me trying to read a particular getup option, and then letting them back and getting punished on top of that. I'm trying to discipline myself to react to their getup option, but I'm not sure I can do that. However, I know at some level I'm primed for a particular set of options despite myself, but I don't know how this might be skewing my ability to react to anything else. How do you handle opponents on the ledge, what do you like to watch for, and where do you recommend standing, if you have some general rules? (I've noticed you and m2k often WD back from the ledge and stand about a BF platform away pretty often.)

Versus dash back, I often find opponents will keep going, shield, or jump if I push into them. But I put myself in danger by pursuing them, because following them with an aerial gets whiff punished if I space to catch a dash in that doesn't come, but if I overshoot and they shield I might get shieldgrabbed. Dtilt feels equally risky in the event they jump, which is also a pretty common response. Basically, I don't know how to press an advantage here and stay safe at the same time.

So I've been grinding netplay a lot as part of my Shine preparation, getting matchup experience and looking for positions I don't understand so I can work them out. I've mentioned my salt phobia to you before on here, and I had a bad encounter with a fairly high ranked player that got me thinking, which was ironically really cool: the reason I'm so adverse to salt - to the point it distracts me and even makes me throw - is because when people say mean things to me when I win, I'm afraid they're right. What if I really am a bad player and don't deserve my wins? I put so much soul into this game, which I know you understand leaves me vulnerable. I watch top players and realize I've set myself such a daunting task trying to reach that level, and I still haven't developed the self-trust to believe I'm on that path, regardless of what I do or how much time I invest. This is why I'm so determined to make Shine into some sort of hard goal, to prove something to myself. But I'm scared I won't meet that goal, and it makes me uncertain as to whether my approach is healthy. ...Just wondering if you have any thoughts on this or some advice to offer in light of what I've figured out. Is this something you'd recommend I reframe? If so, into what?
 

Dr Peepee

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Those small stage length differences do add up. Every little bit more you can dash back adds up to more chances to concede space and more interactions. I also have noticed that I feel comfortable giving up space more on DL and the farther away side platforms make getting grabs in the middle of the level not so bad. So this is part of it: giving up stage is easier with more stage to give up. Also, consider TR. It takes up almost all of YS in a Marth ditto. While other top tier matchups aren't quite as extreme, they're still really big. So on BF, you're still not given that much leeway to dash back that many times or in many neutral positions while retaining some control/without being cornered.

Hmm what's a good way to answer this reactable question? Maybe I should say if you get hit and have no idea why you didn't react and therefore can't react, while seeking to play in more ways that give reactions like partial approaches, or get data from moving in and then back for free reads so if you can't react you at least have good info. You can also get faster reactions by training your mixups more, which is a bonus effect of shadowboxing.

So it sounds like vs FH that you can beat it alright but struggle with platform play, is that right? If that's the case, then just intercept their DJ if you begin positioning for beating FH and forcing a mixup game. As for when they get to a platform, don't rush if you don't react to it. Just begin setting up your SH/DJ mixup from below, and occasionally FH spaced Fair/Bair fading away for damage. You need a good read on their habits before trying to convert anything there and harassing them is better so they know they can't comfortable sit there.

If they move away when they come OOS, you can sometimes hit them as they come OOS if you're staying safe with Dtilt/Fair/staying spaced outside of their moves. Empty hops can be good to threaten the Fair and get you some grabs or a new Dtilt/Fsmash setup, and if you're discouraging them coming in or attacking OOS then they can only really move back. This leaves you in a good spot to move in and really pressure them for struggling there. Vs spacies, your above question getting solved will help be okay with letting them jump, especially when cornered. Maybe that was all useless and I'd say just practice being in shield vs Marth and see what feels very bad for you and use that, or just run the situation a lot with a friend.

Holding down and just Dtilting if they get onstage is pretty good against a decent amount of characters like Sheik/Marth/ICs for example. The main counterplay is they get on the very lip of the stage, which as Marth is very acceptable lol. But I'm not sure I can list total counterplay for every matchup. The reason we WD back is because we want to dodge an attack they might do because we were close as they had to make a decision and then we will be safe from anything they try through WD back.

Just move forward and don't attack, or just move forward and undershoot an attack if you're super worried about being counterhit on that approach. That should round you out more.

The surest way you won't reach your goal is if you tell yourself all of the ways you won't reach it. I'm not innocent in this entirely, as I compared myself to top players constantly as I improved and I always said "I suck" as a result. I also really struggled with criticism, but seemed to use it more to motivate myself to work harder to prove them wrong. The other main difference between us is that I didn't think about all of the bad stuff that could happen but focused instead on how sick Melee was and learning was and the next people I wanted to beat/play. In other words, I focused more on what I did want instead of what I didn't. Now, maybe you can get there if you stay wondering if your goal is worth it and if people are right about you, but I'd think that would tear anyone apart before they could make it. Self-compassion is such an underrated but valuable skill and it might be worth training that along with everything else you're training. It's about substituting what you normally think(this is too hard, what if I can't make it, do those people really hate me?) with things that you also believe and what your ideal self wants you to believe(this is hard but worth it, I can make it if I keep trying eventually, these people might be mad at me now but they will be fine a little later and it's more about them being frustrated by my play than anything I did).

Maybe more than anything else, I'd almost say you should be proud of yourself RIGHT NOW because of all of the work you're doing. Many people don't work this hard on anything for this long and you should cut yourself some slack.

I'm always trying to find better ways to say what I want to say online when these sorts of things come up, so let me know if it doesn't really do it for you, but I do hope that helps.
 

Zorcey

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Those small stage length differences do add up. Every little bit more you can dash back adds up to more chances to concede space and more interactions. I also have noticed that I feel comfortable giving up space more on DL and the farther away side platforms make getting grabs in the middle of the level not so bad. So this is part of it: giving up stage is easier with more stage to give up. Also, consider TR. It takes up almost all of YS in a Marth ditto. While other top tier matchups aren't quite as extreme, they're still really big. So on BF, you're still not given that much leeway to dash back that many times or in many neutral positions while retaining some control/without being cornered.

Hmm what's a good way to answer this reactable question? Maybe I should say if you get hit and have no idea why you didn't react and therefore can't react, while seeking to play in more ways that give reactions like partial approaches, or get data from moving in and then back for free reads so if you can't react you at least have good info. You can also get faster reactions by training your mixups more, which is a bonus effect of shadowboxing.

So it sounds like vs FH that you can beat it alright but struggle with platform play, is that right? If that's the case, then just intercept their DJ if you begin positioning for beating FH and forcing a mixup game. As for when they get to a platform, don't rush if you don't react to it. Just begin setting up your SH/DJ mixup from below, and occasionally FH spaced Fair/Bair fading away for damage. You need a good read on their habits before trying to convert anything there and harassing them is better so they know they can't comfortable sit there.

If they move away when they come OOS, you can sometimes hit them as they come OOS if you're staying safe with Dtilt/Fair/staying spaced outside of their moves. Empty hops can be good to threaten the Fair and get you some grabs or a new Dtilt/Fsmash setup, and if you're discouraging them coming in or attacking OOS then they can only really move back. This leaves you in a good spot to move in and really pressure them for struggling there. Vs spacies, your above question getting solved will help be okay with letting them jump, especially when cornered. Maybe that was all useless and I'd say just practice being in shield vs Marth and see what feels very bad for you and use that, or just run the situation a lot with a friend.

Holding down and just Dtilting if they get onstage is pretty good against a decent amount of characters like Sheik/Marth/ICs for example. The main counterplay is they get on the very lip of the stage, which as Marth is very acceptable lol. But I'm not sure I can list total counterplay for every matchup. The reason we WD back is because we want to dodge an attack they might do because we were close as they had to make a decision and then we will be safe from anything they try through WD back.

Just move forward and don't attack, or just move forward and undershoot an attack if you're super worried about being counterhit on that approach. That should round you out more.

The surest way you won't reach your goal is if you tell yourself all of the ways you won't reach it. I'm not innocent in this entirely, as I compared myself to top players constantly as I improved and I always said "I suck" as a result. I also really struggled with criticism, but seemed to use it more to motivate myself to work harder to prove them wrong. The other main difference between us is that I didn't think about all of the bad stuff that could happen but focused instead on how sick Melee was and learning was and the next people I wanted to beat/play. In other words, I focused more on what I did want instead of what I didn't. Now, maybe you can get there if you stay wondering if your goal is worth it and if people are right about you, but I'd think that would tear anyone apart before they could make it. Self-compassion is such an underrated but valuable skill and it might be worth training that along with everything else you're training. It's about substituting what you normally think(this is too hard, what if I can't make it, do those people really hate me?) with things that you also believe and what your ideal self wants you to believe(this is hard but worth it, I can make it if I keep trying eventually, these people might be mad at me now but they will be fine a little later and it's more about them being frustrated by my play than anything I did).

Maybe more than anything else, I'd almost say you should be proud of yourself RIGHT NOW because of all of the work you're doing. Many people don't work this hard on anything for this long and you should cut yourself some slack.

I'm always trying to find better ways to say what I want to say online when these sorts of things come up, so let me know if it doesn't really do it for you, but I do hope that helps.
Hm... this makes sense. I often dash back/begin a DD to assess a Neutral situation, but this is a bad habit because I give up control. I'd be punished less for it on DL, however, because I'm far more likely to be outside opponent TR, and giving up some stage isn't as bad. Playing more assertively and cutting out more unnecessary movement is probably what I need to do on smaller stages then. Also getting out of my head more.

Partial approaches aren't something I use enough, and just gathering data actually sounds like an intuitive solution, because defense in particular is often very patterned - can't believe that didn't occur to me. Okay, these are helpful.

Yeah, it's platforms. FH seems much more straightforward on FD and even PS where the mixup isn't there/not nearly as strong. But okay, I do think my problem is rushing, and I give up the control they give me when they retreat to platforms as a result.

Oh no, this sounds pretty useful. I think I need to apply both sets of advice, running the situation a lot while keeping these things in mind. I need to be more clear with what exactly I want them to do, and moving back is at least a good starting place.

Hm... so hold down > Dtilt, and I generally use WD back as a response to ledgedashes/ledgehop aerials. Are there other common tools Marth could use to guard the ledge I should experiment with?

This seems to relate to your point about partial approaches, I'll work on those.

I currently use criticism the way you did, and do the same thing watching top players ahaha... Self-compassion is hard, and you've brought it up to me before in the form of substitutions. It's honestly something I'm working on, but I can't bring myself to be proud of the work I've put in if it hasn't been good work, you know? It's like, if it accomplishes the goal I set for myself that's worth being proud of, but if I put in a bunch of work and it was all useless and didn't make me any better, that's just crushing more than anything. It's the constant nagging of "am I doing this right" that eats at me, because I want it so bad but my time feels so limited. I'm actively trying to replace those negative thoughts with positives though, and tbh just being able to come on here and discuss my mentality struggles with you is great in itself, so it really does help.
 

Kotastic

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Just simple questions

For spacies side-B from the ledge, should I just buffer roll? I generally shield and WD, but sometimes I swear I WD OoS pretty fast and they still get out their spotdodge anyways. Even then, the analog --> digital shield conversion and shield poking occurs sometimes and it's really annoying.

For Falcon's Raptor boost, I'm working on just reacting to the sound of it with shield. Should I also perhaps work on timing a fair to intercept it?
 
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