Captain Falcon's Knee

[victra♥]

The knee is incredible in this game. It's not quite melee good, but in the context of this game its VERY good. You can dthrow into knee for true, registered combos on almost everyone in the cast at around 65-80 percent. I crush ZSS players with it, its very reliable as a kill move. You just can't throw them out as an approach now. Dthrow into knee works, uair into knee works, in certain situations stomp to knee does the trick.

Is that down throw knee combo legit? Jesus Christ. Knee is great after downthrow or dash attack for frame trap scenarios but if it's a true combo at that % that is insane.

Edit: Confirmed in training mode. Down Throw into Knee between 65-80% (character dependent) is registered as a true combo my god

 

[Stafy]

I feel like Dthrow to Knee is dependent on a lot of factors. VI, the character, and where you're at on the stage seem to be in play here. Often times I can land this depending on the angle they go in; Other times not. It can work on the edges of the stage, arguably the most important place to do this; It doesn't work on the middle of the stage. And of course, it's not possible on certain characters.

It's something to look into regardless, but I don't think it's reliable. For the most part, Uair is the most reliable move to follow up a Dthrow, though Nair is a good contender too.

Uair to Knee can seem reliable if you can land it, but considering the defensive nature of this game, it's a pipe dream to do so... on Final Destination, at least. You can execute a reliable Uair to Knee combo if you manage to make use of a platform on Battlefield. This seems to work at around 65%-80% for most characters, though if you think it can't land, Uair to Uair still racks up percentage, and a single Uair on a platform creates a frame trap opportunity for knees.

 

[Gawain]

Have you gone to training mode and confirmed this as a combo on almost everyone in the cast? I've tried it on plenty, and often, though it looks like a perfect combo, the combo counter won't reach 2. This includes ZSS at 75%

I am loathe to post my own awful video as it feels scummy, but in this video I show a few examples of 2-3 strings with the knee. Some of the combos in the video reset to 1 (falcon dive doesn't count as a combo extension), and also there are startup frames for airdodges in this game (more than in brawl which averaged around 4 i think), so some of the ones that go to 1 are probably still possible. These combos are done on CPUs in training mode but I've also attempted most of them with my brother while spamming air dodge, and they still aren't air-dodgeable. Some can be DI'd out of, but if you use the nair or another uair instead they can't get away (mostly the dthrow into knee at the upper percents for some characters).

Anyways here it is. Sorry about the terrible quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDH97DRhMNA

 

[Stafy]

Don't feel scummy about it; it makes it easier for everyone to understand. That being said, that's a really nice find for knee combos and will definitely help everyone out. Thanks for the video, definitely going to put some time in the lab to practice these.

 

[Gawain]

Don't feel scummy about it; it makes it easier for everyone to understand. That being said, that's a really nice find for knee combos and will definitely help everyone out. Thanks for the video, definitely going to put some time in the lab to practice these.

Something else I noticed that I thought I ought to comment on is that the game doesn't seem to recognize some combos, despite the fact that characters aren't able to escape from them. A really easy example is mario's dthrow into uptilt strings. Even though you're not able to get out of it at low percents (unless you're megaman), it doesn't register as a combo. I feel like there is some gap in between the time when hitstun ends and when a character can airdodge/attack/whatever that isn't recognized as actual hitstun. This appears to be the case with some knee combos when the opponent DI's outwards. The move still connects but as far as I've been able to test with my bro, you aren't able to airdodge out.

 

[Blazing Ambition]

Weak knee to sweetspot knee is possible as well, though it probably isn't a true combo. Still looks ballin' as heII..

 

[ZRoy]

So the Knee of Justice really got a buff, correct? It lands more than it did in Brawl this time around.

 

[Maniak]

I am loathe to post my own awful video as it feels scummy, but in this video I show a few examples of 2-3 strings with the knee. Some of the combos in the video reset to 1 (falcon dive doesn't count as a combo extension), and also there are startup frames for airdodges in this game (more than in brawl which averaged around 4 i think), so some of the ones that go to 1 are probably still possible. These combos are done on CPUs in training mode but I've also attempted most of them with my brother while spamming air dodge, and they still aren't air-dodgeable. Some can be DI'd out of, but if you use the nair or another uair instead they can't get away (mostly the dthrow into knee at the upper percents for some characters).

Anyways here it is. Sorry about the terrible quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDH97DRhMNA

Great finds man thanks for this!!!

 

[victra♥]

Weak knee to sweetspot knee is possible as well, though it probably isn't a true combo. Still looks ballin' as heII..

i've gotten this a few times, it's pretty sick

 

[Captain Norris]

Shot hop to knee to quick falling while in the first few frames of the knee is a thing too. Great for the sweetspot.

 

[Gawain]

Captain Falcon is going to be a sleeper top tier just like he was in melee. People thought he was mid back in the early days of melee but after a few years he rose to 7th and has sat there since. I really feel like Falcon is going to be the same this time around. A lot of people are counting him out because of Brawl kinda taking a dump on his name, but he's got early KO potential that literally no one else has. Difficult to pull off though. Takes skill.

 

[victra♥]

Falcon is better in the context of Smash 4 than he was in Melee imo

 

[Gawain]

Falcon is better in the context of Smash 4 than he was in Melee imo

I actually agree. The mechanics of this game are incredibly in his favor. His problem in melee was that his tools, while good, were simply not as good as those of Fox, Sheik, Marth etc. This time around I'm not seeing really anyone with anything that beats what he's got. Many characters have great tools that match him, but I'm not seeing anyone tremendously above him.

 

[victra♥]

From experience, Lil Mac definitely beats your ground game simply because he can trade (or rather, tank the hit and beat you thanks to super armor) if your approaches are telegraphed. But then again, if we're talking grounded neutral game I don't think there's any character in this game that beats Lil Mac haha.

 

[Gawain]

I can't handle the really good Macs online. That's pretty much the only character I lose to. Partly because I'm always dropping combos I shouldn't be due to bad lag (probably my end) and partly due to the fact that he's got such a crazy pressure game. They do this kinda dash-dancing thing with fox-trots and his backroll and it's VERY hard to tell what he's gonna do. Only safe choice against him is shielding out of dash to grab him and hope that my connection doesn't stutter when I try to uair into the knee. Sometimes dash attacking seems to work alright as a punish since you can juggle mac pretty well once he's in the air.

 

[Stafy]

Anyone want to start compiling a list on who we can't dthrow -> knee or dthrow -> uair -> knee?

So far I seem to can't do it on ROB, even at 55-70%. Any luck for anyone else?

 

[Gawain]

Anyone want to start compiling a list on who we can't dthrow -> knee or dthrow -> uair -> knee?

So far I seem to can't do it on ROB, even at 55-70%. Any luck for anyone else?

I've done it to rob before. I'll check what percent when I get home. Also, against most characters you have a second "window" to knee at by dthrowing and then quickly double jumping into the knee. First window is generally the 60-70 percent and the second one is usually 10 to 15 percent later. I'm starting to find that you have a pretty significant window of opportunity to use the knee. I'll post a video describing this later, still compiling stuff and I'm going to be using actual game examples of the combos in action.

 

[Knee Against the World]

I am loathe to post my own awful video as it feels scummy, but in this video I show a few examples of 2-3 strings with the knee. Some of the combos in the video reset to 1 (falcon dive doesn't count as a combo extension), and also there are startup frames for airdodges in this game (more than in brawl which averaged around 4 i think), so some of the ones that go to 1 are probably still possible. These combos are done on CPUs in training mode but I've also attempted most of them with my brother while spamming air dodge, and they still aren't air-dodgeable. Some can be DI'd out of, but if you use the nair or another uair instead they can't get away (mostly the dthrow into knee at the upper percents for some characters).

Anyways here it is. Sorry about the terrible quality.

Wow that was pretty awesome. You should never feel bad for posting your own videos if its purpose is to advance the meta. Your video really made me want to go into practice mode and play around for a while. As someone who supplements training room time with online matches, do you have any advice for me for training mode? ie. lvl 9 cpus, percents for certain combos, etc. (I completed your combo video as some sort of training regiment, lol)

I've done it to rob before. I'll check what percent when I get home. Also, against most characters you have a second "window" to knee at by dthrowing and then quickly double jumping into the knee. First window is generally the 60-70 percent and the second one is usually 10 to 15 percent later. I'm starting to find that you have a pretty significant window of opportunity to use the knee. I'll post a video describing this later, still compiling stuff and I'm going to be using actual game examples of the combos in action.

Also, yea I think you're right. I was having trouble getting some of your combos(like the 1st link one) to go up to 3, but on a lvl 9 computer who mashes air dodge I could still land it at least.

Is that down throw knee combo legit? Jesus Christ. Knee is great after downthrow or dash attack for frame trap scenarios but if it's a true combo at that % that is insane.

May not even be frame trapping that you're pulling off. It may just be you exploiting the window between hit stun and the ability to air-dodge.

 

[Gawain]

Wow that was pretty awesome. You should never feel bad for posting your own videos if its purpose is to advance the meta. Your video really made me want to go into practice mode and play around for a while. As someone who supplements training room time with online matches, do you have any advice for me for training mode? ie. lvl 9 cpus, percents for certain combos, etc.



Also, yea I think you're right. I was having trouble getting some of your combos(like the 1st link one) to go up to 3, but on a lvl 9 computer who mashes air dodge I could still land it at least.



May not even be frame trapping that you're pulling off. It may just be you exploiting the window between hit stun and the ability to air-dodge.

Glad to help a fellow Falcon. If you're having trouble landing the links between the moves I recommend going into training mode and setting it to half speed to find out the exact frames that Falcon is able to move after using a falling uair or a dthrow. It's critically important to make sure you start your dash immediately once you are able to before jumping into your knee or uair or whatever. Also, if you want to follow a uair with a knee, you need to space the uair properly. They need to be solidly within the hitbox of the uair to stay close enough for the follow up.

As for training settings, I recommend keeping it at the level 3~5 range for the most part as it doesn't DI much. If you set it to 9 the CPU will almost always DI away, so its good for practicing situations when your opponent DI's away from you, but not for much else, otherwise it'll form bad habits. Training with a person is the best once you have the links down, since they DI in various direction (up being the hardest one to follow up with. the timing is very strict).

If you wanna train online from time to time with me I'd love to. I'm looking for Falcon mains to practice with.

 

[Knee Against the World]

Glad to help a fellow Falcon. If you're having trouble landing the links between the moves I recommend going into training mode and setting it to half speed to find out the exact frames that Falcon is able to move after using a falling uair or a dthrow. It's critically important to make sure you start your dash immediately once you are able to before jumping into your knee or uair or whatever. Also, if you want to follow a uair with a knee, you need to space the uair properly. They need to be solidly within the hitbox of the uair to stay close enough for the follow up.

As for training settings, I recommend keeping it at the level 3~5 range for the most part as it doesn't DI much. If you set it to 9 the CPU will almost always DI away, so its good for practicing situations when your opponent DI's away from you, but not for much else, otherwise it'll form bad habits. Training with a person is the best once you have the links down, since they DI in various direction (up being the hardest one to follow up with. the timing is very strict).

If you wanna train online from time to time with me I'd love to. I'm looking for Falcon mains to practice with.

Sounds good to me. I remember that like, in melee or something, level 7 cpus would randomly DI, and thus were the best to train against. I'll keep using your video as a training regiment and practice with different levels of cpus. Yea I'd be more than happy to practice with you. I noticed we're both in Utah as well, which may help our connection not be so horrendous. My Friend Code is, 1607-3815-6289

 

[Gawain]

Sounds good to me. I remember that like, in melee or something, level 7 cpus would randomly DI, and thus were the best to train against. I'll keep using your video as a training regiment and practice with different levels of cpus. Yea I'd be more than happy to practice with you. I noticed we're both in Utah as well, which may help our connection not be so horrendous. My Friend Code is, 1607-3815-6289

Sounds good man. Maybe I'll see you at a local tournament or something. My code's in my profile. I'll add you when I get the chance but I've got class starting right now so it'll be a bit.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I'm pleased that The Knee was given at least some respect again in Sm4sh, but I can't help but feel disappointed at how avoidable it is.
The landing lag makes it a move that you really don't want to use that much as well. And when you do decide to down throw -> Knee, there's the big chance that your opponent will already have had opportunity to spam air dodges.

 

[Ganreizu]

Have you gone to training mode and confirmed this as a combo on almost everyone in the cast? I've tried it on plenty, and often, though it looks like a perfect combo, the combo counter won't reach 2. This includes ZSS at 75%

Training mode combo counter honestly means nothing in terms of verifying true combos.

 

[abit_rusty]

I do not believe he will be "sleeper top tier" let alone high tier once the meta fully develops. He lacks the options to approach characters who excel at zoning. In melee he had the speed, and the ability to create reads into kills from a single punish. His momentum is nowhere near as good in smash 4.

Won't stop me from playing him though!

 

[victra♥]

I do not believe he will be "sleeper top tier" let alone high tier once the meta fully develops. He lacks the options to approach characters who excel at zoning. In melee he had the speed, and the ability to create reads into kills from a single punish. His momentum is nowhere near as good in smash 4.

Won't stop me from playing him though!

I actually agree with this for the most part, but I do think Falcon will be in the same tier placing in Smash 4 as he was in Melee.

Of course he has speed in Melee, but he is still very fast in Smash 4 relative to the rest of the cast. Falcon can punish a lot of things that a lot of other characters wouldn't be fast enough to do (example: punishing sheik's bouncing fish on block).

Falcon's approaches I think are better in the context of this game because you have a grounded approach that has a fat hit box (dash attack), and the lack of crouch cancelling. In Melee, Nair can be out-prioritized by many moves (and still is in this game), and can be easily CC'd. Where as in Smash we have a dash attack that is used in the same context as an approaching Nair but better. This, with the additional mix up of dash grab makes an approaching Falcon pretty scary. However, Falcon doesn't have to play as aggressively in this game. Gentleman is amazing to wall players out, and pivot ftilts to catch their rolls, and you can just be patient to get your opportunity.

But camping characters are a pain in the ass for the reasons that you stated. You can still dash shield but you no longer have the wavedash oos option as you would do in Melee, and once YOU DO get in, your punishes are nowhere near as significant as they are in Melee where you can take a stock off of a single hit/opportunity.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Falling uair into knee is amazing. It's basically the new stomp to knee. It's far safer than raw knee because uair has a mere 9 frames on landing lag, and is likely safe even on shields unless it's powershielded. It easily registers as a true combo in training mode and it works at a huge variety of %s unlike most combos in this game which seem to only work at very strict %s. It also seems to work on pretty much everybody in the game, from Jigglypuff to Bowser.

The best part of it is the fact it lets Captain Falcon easily kill at % ranges where no one else can hope to do so without gimping. Like normally the Lucario matchup is a huge pain because once you get him to 100% he goes monster mode and you still can't kill him with a side B. But uair into knee combos and KILLS at a mere 63% from the center of FD. Furthermore it can kill even earlier if you have rage, and still manages to combo at 90% (although it will be less than this with rage).

So once you have Lucario or anyone else in the 60-90% range, suddenly Falcon has the power to punish even the tiniest mistake with a kill. Combine it with Falcon's incredible speed which lets him rush in from anywhere on the stage with a flying uair and you have a punishing beast.


The key to actually doing the combo is knowing the jump timings between the uair and the knee. The reason why this combo can work on such a large span of %s is because of Falcon's jump speed, and the ability to vary your jump height with shorthops, fullhops, and timing your double jump. At very low percents you can combo uair into shorthop knee, although this usually won't kill and is a waste of the Knee's freshness. At mid percents uair will combo into a simple fullhopped knee. At higher percents you will have to double jump and the timing is very % specific, for instance when your opponent just reaches %s where fullhopped knee won't land, you need to jump and them immediately double jump knee, while at high %s you'll need to double jump at the peak of your full jump.
Also where you hit them with your uair affects the combo too. Hitting them with it close up sends them slightly higher up while hitting them at a bit of a distance sends them up less but more forward. Usually you want to hit them close at low %s and farther at high %s but this varies depending on the character.
This combo will need a lot of practice to pull off in real battles especially since rage can mess with your calculations, so you just need to try it out a lot to get a feel for how to time your jumps for the knee.

Note that the %s vary a lot depending on the floatiness and weight of the opponent. Floaty characters like Puff are trickier to combo and have a smaller range of %s that the combo works at. Also short characters (also like Puff) are difficult to hit with uair and it may be completely impossible to hit them if they are crouching. This combo is mainly landed as a punish anyways though. If you just start jumping around with shorthopped uairs once they are at mid percents it will be very obvious and you will be punished in return.

Here are some example %s just to show the sheer range this combo works at (done on FD, no rage or DI factored and probably not completely precise):
Jigglypuff: Starts to combo at 23% (can string at any percent with single hit nair -> knee). Kills at 43%. No longer combos at 72% (might be possible with frame perfect timing).
Rosalina: Starts to combo at 27%. Kills at 48%. No longer combos at 81%. Also note hitting Luma causes extra hitlag and can mess up your combos (Sakurai why did you give her this annoying little thing).
Sheik: Starts to combo at 33%. Kills at 47%. No longer combos at 90%.
Bowser: Starts to combo at 39%. Kills at 66%. No longer combos at 112%.
So around 60% is where the combo starts to work and kill on everybody.


The only problem is doing shorthop fast fall uair in a real battle is really hard and not very practical on the 3DS. But it should be easy on the Wii U.

An alternative Knee combo that works on the 3DS is dthrow -> uair -> knee. This combo however only seems to work at very specific %s and on some characters it won't register as a true combo. In a real battle you only get one shot at it because if you miss the knee, you opponent will be too high of a %.


As an extra note, Falcon can combo single hit nair into grab/jab at ANY percent since the first hit of nair has a set knockback. So for people trying to find more Falcon approaches, short hop fast fall nair can be used as an aerial jab of sorts and you can use it to poke at defensive player's shields into grabs.

 

[abit_rusty]

I too noticed that the variation in the double jump is key to landing the knee from a dthrow or uair. I don't quite know how consistent percentages can be, given stale moves and vectoring, but hell it's worth learning. I have a feeling that the falcons who can fully capitalize on key kill ranges with the knee will be the most successful because dear god the zoning hurts.

It's looking less like pure flash and more like take some punishment until I get into knee kill percent range for the best zoning characters.

 

[Lew Paue]

Just landed my 1st online knee, and it was a very satisfying finish, all shall kneel before the knee

 

[hariooo]

Someone should do a dthrow->knee test but with a second player holding up and away the whole time. I doubt it's a true combo except at really specific percents for most characters.

 

[Bobert]

Works on everybody but it's kinda hard to land the first hit on an actual player.

Edit: Just realized that somebody else already posted this combo. :\

 

[victra♥]

Just landed my 1st online knee, and it was a very satisfying finish, all shall kneel before the knee

congrats on popping your knee cherry.

smash 4 really gave the knee a lot more oomph on impact.

 

[Lew Paue]

congrats on popping your knee cherry.

smash 4 really gave the knee a lot more oomph on impact.

Yeah from brawl a very large change, just have to practice landing them

 

[BigLord]

I feel like I can consistently KO with Falcon pretty well, but apparently I just can't hit the knee very often (unless I'm lucky, eh).

The best combo for hitting it is ffuair -> knee, right? I've got to use it more often :\

 

[abit_rusty]

I feel like I can consistently KO with Falcon pretty well, but apparently I just can't hit the knee very often (unless I'm lucky, eh).

The best combo for hitting it is ffuair -> knee, right? I've got to use it more often :\

It may be the most consistent but as far as being the most reliable..not really. Especially when you are making it clear that you are attempting SHFF'd uairs, it's kinda easy to space them or stuff them out (since it's not like you have some magical disjointed hitbox for your legs). I have concluded the knee to be more of a punish tool than an addition to a combo. One thing I do like to do is using the nice little short-backflip-hop animation that is perfect for dodging a low attack (or baiting a spot dodge) that leads to a sweetspot knee.

 

[BigLord]

One thing I do like to do is using the nice little short-backflip-hop animation that is perfect for dodging a low attack (or baiting a spot dodge) that leads to a sweetspot knee.

Oh my God yes. That feeling when you jump over an attack with a foward-moving backflip and knee the crap out of them. I call it the Graceful Justice.

 

[Bullys]

I've namely been setting up my knee with a U-Air.

I am still weak with my grab game (and I know that, so working on it a lot).

For me, its just been a reliable finisher for me, and gotten me out of some really tough spots.

 

[Knee Against the World]

How on earth are you guys pulling off a ffU-Air on the 3ds? I'm always looking for more ways to combo into the knee, but I have a difficult time landing the U-Air on grounded opponents.

 

[BigLord]

First thing: tap jump MUST be off, otherwise you'll probably just jump in front of your opponent's nose.

Other than that, just work on your finger speed, I guess. It's very possible, just difficult.

 

[victra♥]

i've been sharing this everywhere but

i'm not too sure if falcon has changed with this new patch but i was able to connect dthrow knee on marth as a true combo at 28%

 

[タオー]

The biggest problem I seem to be running into in sm4sh is definitely getting counter-punished on my finishers. Now I'm sure in some cases they can read the eager face of a falcon main and counter in kind, but I'm wondering the difference between hitstun in sm4sh and melee, as I feel that would be a big factor. Also, is it just me or are the counter windows/hitboxes way too large?