Captain Falcon - Is He Really That Bad? - A Captain Falcon Analysis Topic

[Banjodorf]

Let me direct your attention to subject A. You may recognize him :

Captain Falcon in Melee and SSB64 was a powerhouse.

In Brawl, his reputation has massively gone under because of nerfs that make him highly inferior to his melee counterpart. (Loss of l-canceling being a big one of these)

Many have shyed away, shelfing him because of these nerfs, but lets take a minute to actually examine the good captain, and see if he's as bad as the masses say.


Pros


Raptor Boost - He is able to grab the edge with this now, and in addition, it's an easy to pull off meteor. Another nice addition, when raptor boost lands, falcon gets a slight boost off the ground (or in the air) that propels him forward, and attributes to his recovery being pretty good.)

u-air - It's really just as good as it ever was. it can easily set up combos, etc. etc.

Falcon Kick - The falcon kick now comes out faster, and you recover from it much faster.

The b-air - Comes out faster, still a very powerful kill move

the f-smash - larger hit boxes, comes out faster

The non-electric knee Yes, to me, this is a pro, this sets up for comboing (I dont care if you dont like me saying combos ) sends them a slight distance away, it's easy to hit with, among other things.

And last (and least) the electric knee - Yep. One pro - The knee is stronger, and it can kil at lower percentages, and sends them foe in a straight, horizontal line. If you connect with it, it's stronger than in Melee)

And really, it's not that hard to connect with, it just takes time.

Cons

The electric knee - Given the loss of an easy sweet-spot, the electric knee was hit hard. It is very hard to hit with if you DONT know your timings.

The d-air - Slightly more difficult to hit with, and doesnt always meteor (This really depends on the angle)

Falcon Kick - Can unfortunately be stopped by alot of attacks (Meta's Tornado, Snake's Nakita, etc.)

The up-smash - Does less damage, and it's hitboxes are smaller.

Edit: The n-air - Lacks priority

Edit, pointed out by A2ZOMG - grabs - lack range

and last but not least - the up/left-right taunts - They are, unfortunately dwarfed by the awesomeness of his down-taunt.

Extra thoughts


Falcon Pwnch - Epic. It's seemingly more powerful, and may not come out faster, but again, packs a whallop.

FALCON PWNCH!!

The reverse Falcon punch - while this may make the falcon punch even stronger, it's hard to time, hard to pull of, and is just un-needed. But it does leave a satisfying feeling to kill with it


Well Falcon lovers, this is my analysis of the captain, and how he works in Brawl.

I'd like to hear your thoughts, and please, let me know about anything I've left out.


Also, I'd like those of you who left falcon in Brawl but still come to his forum regularly to try him out, and see if you can't learn to use him effectively.

I'd like to call this the:


CAPTAIN FALCON CHALLENGE!


So Falcon fans, let me know of your thoughts, and those of you who left, give Falcon a chance one more time, all is not lost.



Again, Falcon fans, please:

SHOW ME YOUR MOVES!

 

[Iwan]

I agree with a lot of your pros...except the nuetral air. Falcon's Nair has NO priority...yea, you can hit people with it, but 90 percent of the time with both kicks? No way...no. way. It's still a useful move in the right circumstances, but not as good as you made it sound in that post.

Also, i think reverse falcon punches are actually MORE useful than normal ones. Am i alone on this? lol.

OH YEA...and one more thing, even if you have the timing down on the knee perfectly, you still won't land it if you try to use it like the "old" knee. It has no priority, and since there's no hitstun in this game it's hard to hit with unless it's ledge hopped or used as a counter (or you predict an opponent and get a little lucky).

 

[Reaver197]

The Knee is not stronger than what is was in Melee. Nair has bad priority, and has huge issues hitting smaller characters.

You're either wrong about things, or telling us all stuff we already know. Why did you post this?

 

[BananaTrooper]

The Knee is not stronger than what is was in Melee. Nair has bad priority, and has huge issues hitting smaller characters.

You're either wrong about things, or telling us all stuff we already know. Why did you post this?

Don't crush his innocent spirit. Applaud his enthusiasm (I like the colours in your post). Let him dream...

 

[Ayato]

Your analysis of Falcon's pros are either shallow or misguided. Allow me to explain:

As the other two have mentioned, the priority on the nair is BALLS. Also, short characters negate the effectiveness of this move almost entirely. It becomes unusable in every sense against short characters.

Furthermore, it does NOT lead into combo. At best, you can do nair->bair/uair/nair ONCE and they can airdodge or retaliate. Any more than a 2 hit "combo" in this game is relatively impossible with Falcon (save, PERHAPS, the "YES! Combo"). Your opponent has to mess up critically if they allow you to score a legitimate 3+ hit combo.

The flubbed knee is most effective vs opponents on the ground (for its tripping properties) and, if your opponent is at least somewhat competent, it's usually shielded regardless of whether or not it's a sweetspot or non-sweetspot hit. Both cases result in almost 0 knockback against (even without powershielding) and are easily shieldgrabbed. Punishing "combo-able move" only. Case closed.

It's still possible to hit the knee. That doesn't mean it's easily possible. It's situational to the highest degree and, due to the lack of comboing in Brawl, is very difficult to lead into. Punishing move at best (technically you could "combo" into this if your opponent makes a mistake, but it has to be a HUGE mistake). In no way is the knee better. The gimp knee isn't an improvement, only a consolation for stripping Falcon of his best move. The knee is INFINITELY worse than its former self and there is absolutely no denying that.

Also, you're missing one of his most significant improvements, and that is hit utilt. For some reason the hit seems more solid in this game than the last (though I have no info to back this up, it feels to me like its speed has been improved slightly). Either way, it's a great way to clip opponents who are trying to SHAD, edgeguard, and launch opponents into the air (Falcon's best playing field).

The uair also seems to have slightly more punch behind it to compensate for Falcon's other shortcomings. It's certainly a lot more effective for gimping than the bair now. His improved (though not phenomenal) recovery options accentuate this effect.

The priority on raptor boost is still balls. Situational at best. His Falcon Kick has become significantly more viable as an approach option, though.

As far as cons, you forgot the part where Falcon probably has the worst approach in the game. I can't think of any exceptions to this rule off the top of my head.

You also didn't mention the removal of the knockback of the "Gentleman" phase of the jab combo. Huge con, as it leaves you open to massive punishment if you don't close out the infinite jab quickly. It's important not to overlook these things.

That said, I appreciate your effort to try to make (another, as we already have many on this board) list of the pros and cons of Falcon, but you could stand to do a little more substantial testing before posting some of your opinions/findings, as I find that they generally contrast the reality of Falcon's current disposition.

At least you're trying to be constructive.

 

[Reaver197]

Don't crush his innocent spirit. Applaud his enthusiasm (I like the colours in your post). Let him dream...

RARGH!

Your dreams! I must feed on them!

But seriously, there are multiple instances of other threads that have already covered the topic more exhaustively and in-depth. His opinions could've easily been added to one of those instead.

By the way, I'll be heading home soon, so I'll soon be able to add my Friend Code to your Finder. I either expect a swarm of people wanting to beat me to bloody pulp or absolutely everyone will ignore it. Either way, I'll probably be sad.

 

[BananaTrooper]

RARGH!

Your dreams! I must feed on them!

But seriously, there are multiple instances of other threads that have already covered the topic more exhaustively and in-depth. His opinions could've easily been added to one of those instead.

Yeah, I know. Still, it's a sad world where I prefer these kinds of threads to crap like "YTF IS FALCON LOW TEIR!!?" or, "Can someone explain to me why falcon suX?!", and the like. Please, for the sanity of those who still care, stop posting these.

EDIT: looking forward to playing you

 

[AsherXII]

captain falcon being bad? blasphemy.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

TC is doing it horribly wrong. It is not the "electric knee". It's the "Knee of Justice".

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon is bad at approaching, has bad combo setups, and bad kill options. Last but not least, his grab range was cut by a lot.

Yeah, he's bad. Honestly though, I've come to the conclusion that he isn't the worst character anymore. I'm thinking that's Ivysaur. Not like Falcon's recovery is good at all, but Ivysaur's recovery is godawful, like non-existent. Ivysaur also has very bad damage output on almost all attacks. Its projectile isn't all that good, and it suffers the same problem Falcon does of having situational kill moves.

 

[Banjodorf]

TC is doing it horribly wrong. It is not the "electric knee". It's the "Knee of Justice".

lol I'll edit this in.


And I'll edit in the cons for the n-air, and edit my percentages on the n-air as well.

Thanks for your input, thats exactly what I'm looking for.

All I'm REALLY trying to do with this thread is point out that falcon is in no way as horrible as people assume.

Besides, Falcon deserves to be appreciated. He's Captain Falcon.


Edit: @ Reaver, I'm posting this really as an analysis to focus on everything about the new falcon. I have yet to see a post that covers all of these things in the Falcon thread, so I decided to start one.

Is there a problem with this?

 

[Banjodorf]

Captain Falcon is bad at approaching, has bad combo setups, and bad kill options. Last but not least, his grab range was cut by a lot.

Yeah, he's bad. Honestly though, I've come to the conclusion that he isn't the worst character anymore. I'm thinking that's Ivysaur. Not like Falcon's recovery is good at all, but Ivysaur's recovery is godawful, like non-existent. Ivysaur also has very bad damage output on almost all attacks. Its projectile isn't all that good, and it suffers the same problem Falcon does of having situational kill moves.

Eh, DK's vertical recovery is by far the worst.


Edit: Double post, my apologies.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DK's vertical recovery isn't the worst. Any tether-only recovery is worse at recovering vertically than DK's.

 

[Ayato]

The fact is, everyone loves Captain Falcon. You can't not love him. He's one of the quirkiest, most idiosyncratic characters in the game. Most importantly, he's lovably weird and epic.

Few people will consider maining him in Brawl, though, and that won't change no matter how much we try to hype him up. He's an icon now, not (currently) a viable tournament competitor. We can discuss the pros and cons, sure, but that's not getting us anywhere. Discussing how to overcome these issues is more critical to opening Falcon to a greater audience. If that's your goal, this thread is pointless. Aside from the fact that there are many almost identically structured threads, your make any progress toward your goals like this.

If you want to open his audience, make Falcon a good character. Play him well, don't just talk about how he's good, because frankly he isn't (in his current state). We need players to make him better, exceptionally skilled players who will overcome Falcon's weak points and bring out only the best parts of his game. That said, I suggest opening a topic solely for the purposes of strategizing and introducing new elements to Falcon's metagame, since the better part of the old threads on that subject are dead.

Edit: and I'm sorry, but where the heck are you getting this "75% both hit nair" statistic. I don't understand.

 

[Banjodorf]

DK's vertical recovery isn't the worst. Any tether-only recovery is worse at recovering vertically than DK's.

Based on distance, I dont think thats the case.

But if the opponent edgeguards, theyre both pretty much done for, as DK's recovery probably wont pull him over the edge of the stage to survive.

 

[BananaTrooper]

Stop adding numerical statistics that a) you have no way of measuring, and b) are completely false. And yeah , *insert what Ayato said here*

While we appreciate your enthusiasm, this thread really doesn't do anything. Everything in this thread can be found in the stickied guide.

 

[Tenki]

Let me bring to your attention a quote from allisbrawl

It's a mindset issue.

Falcon was made to combo. In Brawl you can only get like a 2 hit combo. I know, it's sad

Captain Falcon has increased damage and knockback on all moves. Compare it with someone like Metaknight, Pit, or Sonic- characters with many moves that have little delay, knockback, and power - is he really made to combo in Brawl?

Maybe you can make the case for it if you stale-move his attacks to death, but honestly, Melee Falcon is the bane of Brawl Falcon users. Different system, different mindset. I saw a quote in the Peach boards saying that some moves that were used often in Melee weren't exactly 'nerfed' - they just had to be used differently.

Ayato brought up a good point.

We need players to make him better, exceptionally skilled players who will overcome Falcon's weak points and bring out only the best parts of his game. That said, I suggest opening a topic solely for the purposes of strategizing and introducing new elements to Falcon's metagame, since the better part of the old threads on that subject are dead.

on a random note that could possibly become a good idea,
How well does Falcon destroy shields?

[edit]
on a funny note:
From the outside, the title is "Captain Falcon - Is He Really..."
and I thought it was asking if he was really dead (Galaxy Suicide Falcon Punch in mind)

 

[BananaTrooper]

on a random note that could possibly become a good idea,
How well does Falcon destroy shields?

Not well. He can get shield grabbed just about every legitimate attempt he makes at approaching.

 

[Tenki]

Not well. He can get shield grabbed just about every legitimate attempt he makes at approaching.

boo I was hoping he could pull a Ganondorf, shield pressure, shield break and pawnch.

Oh well, if you can techread, non-reverse Falcon Punch is fast enough.

 

[Ayato]

Falcon has really, really poor shield pressure. His aerials do next to nothing. The closest thing to shield pressure is Raptor Boost, which is sketchy in its own right (if you're hitting a shield with a raptor boost, you're in trouble anyway, so it's not like this is a viable option).

I know what you mean by that being useful, as it's one of the things that I considered at first given the poor knockback from the knee, but all of his attacks do next to nothing to shields.

 

[Reaver197]

I don't think Falcon suffers so much from any sort of improper application because people play with him in a Melee mindset (though, I admit it can be an issue, or a help depending). It's just that, anyway you look at it, Falcon is a very hard character to apply to any sort of situation.

But, nonetheless, I'm sorry to be so harsh, but the original intent of this thread is on a topic and discussion of opinions that has already happened before. Analysis of Falcon had been done by several people, myself included, shortly after Brawl came out in Japan. It's a little late for you to come here to tell us stuff we already know, or even know better about.

If we want tactical discussion, there is that thread started by Keykid, I believe, on how to fight specific characters, or even discuss it in the guide thread. Continuously making new threads will only make things more confusing, especially when they overlap in intent and information.

 

[KeyKid19]

@ The original post: Even though the Pros and Cons are both about equal in number, the Cons definitely outweigh the Pros. BY A LOT. Heck, even only the Sweetspot Knee and Dair Cons combined outweigh all the Pros.

I like what you tried to do, but it's not solving anything or bringing up anything new. Sorry.

 

[Tenki]

D-air cons..?

Er, I don't have a copy of Melee anymore to compare it with (lol lent it out to a friend and moved out of state before I could get it back >.<) but I'm not sure what's so bad about Falcon's D-air.

The timing is the same with Ganondorf's, and I'm sure that if people can spike with Ganondorf's D-air, you can spike with Falcon's.

..or is there something else I'm missing here?

 

[Reaver197]

Dair was awesome in Melee. It set up perfectly for knees, it's hitbox was Falcon's entire body plus a little more, and it always meteored instead of doing some wonky *** ****. It was also awesome for punishing spot dodgers and for tech chasing. It could even kill vertically.

Now, in Brawl, it just sucks *** through a straw, and has crap *** lag if you don't auto cancel it.

 

[Ayato]

Without L-Cancelling, Falcon's dair has become significantly less useful. It's still a potent move, but it's really only worth the time if you're either off stage or auto canceling it. It's a shadow of its former self.

And there is no longer such a thing as the grand nipple spike, which essentially robs the move of the better part of its epicness.

 

[KeyKid19]

Problems with Dair in Brawl:

Smaller hitbox
Less powerful
No awesome followups
Harder to setup
More punishable
MUCH WORSE sound effect (lol) (same with Knee actually)
Specific timing to auto cancel instead of just L-Canceling it

Dair really puts up a serious argument for Most Nerfed Falcon Move in my opinion. Knee at least has better gimp version now.

 

[Recognize]

cpt falcon cant do anything right... there always has to be a character that is the worst.

 

[rocker4ever117]

I think many of the real opposing and supporting arguements have already been brought up, and although this thread really accomplishes nothing, I have to agree that the cons definitely outweigh the pros in brawl. As a dedicated C. Falcon user in Melee, a lot of things have changed, new characters, new strategies, and faster moves. Although Falcon was a powerhouse in the other games, his slow falcon punch, and difficult combo's definitely outweigh his ability to do a 180 falcon punch and a few other better things. Not that he is the worst character in brawl, but he is no longer the powerhouse he used to be. I just think that a die hard C. Falcon user needs to prove that brawl isnt the end of C Falcon's amazingness haha.

 

[Reaver197]

Brawl is the end of amazingness in general.

 

[whut?]

Brawl is the end of amazingness in general.

what does that accomplish? do you think you fit in now that you conform with the rest of the
"omg brawlz sux" kids?
these threads are a waste, thats all haters post "he wus betr in meleeh, brawl sux"
maybe you should post it in the thousand other threads complaining about brawl?
blame yourself for ruining smashboards

 

[Reaver197]

what does that accomplish? do you think you fit in now that you conform with the rest of the
"omg brawlz sux" kids?
these threads are a waste, thats all haters post "he wus betr in meleeh, brawl sux"
maybe you should post it in the thousand other threads complaining about brawl?
blame yourself for ruining smashboards

OMG NO WAI! I wuzz hear longerz than you, why you be talkin to me like dat? Liek, teh Brawl sux my ballzorz, I haet it so much, so I can look so coolz and chill, yo.

Good to see that you're on the look out. Keep up the good work, my man. See if you can shave off some of that response time. 6 minutes? Far too long. Need to zoom in sooner than that.

 

[Lirok]

i started playing with capt falc yesturday a lot and so far i love his recovery ability with jump+up-b after you jump off the edge for a spike.........its better than dk's and wolf's at least...

 

[Banjodorf]

I just think that a die hard C. Falcon user needs to prove that brawl isnt the end of C Falcon's amazingness haha.

This is what I was getting at, and indirectly, this thread did lead to discussion about Falcon's cons, however much they've been discussed already, this thread could exist as a hub for such things.

 

[KeyKid19]

what does that accomplish? do you think you fit in now that you conform with the rest of the
"omg brawlz sux" kids?
these threads are a waste, thats all haters post "he wus betr in meleeh, brawl sux"
maybe you should post it in the thousand other threads complaining about brawl?
blame yourself for ruining smashboards

Actually it's ****ing idiots like you that ruin SmashBoards.

If Reaver thinks Melee > Brawl, oh well!

 

[Deleted member]

Yea C. Falcon is still a beast and will always be. He has some of the best approach and juggling options in the game IMO, his only problem is priority (which he has none of lol).

 

[Reaver197]

Yeah, if Falcon just had an ounce of priority, he could actually work fairly well.

Or, at least fix the fact that people can attack his model through the limbs he uses to attack, which I guess is sort of the same thing anyway.

But, if wishes were fishes, they'd all be extinct.

 

[BananaTrooper]

He has some of the best approach options in the game IMO

Wth are you smoking lol?

 

[Kirby M.D.]

generic "This thread accomplishes nothing" post #3456

Now that that's out of the way, the good Captain has been changed. While I don't entirely agree with Reaver that Falcon's priority is utter balls (his jab, tilts, Uair and Bair have serviceable priority), he is no Meta.

He reminds me of Kirby in Melee: play tricky, use spacing and what speed you have to make up for priority failings, and get your opponent into the air. Falcon can't combo for anything, but he can chain moves wonderfully. I've been messing around with C.Falc with some pretty good comp and think he has potential. Give it time folks, instead of accentuating the negative we should be working to overcome it.

 

[Ayato]

Yea C. Falcon is still a beast and will always be. He has some of the best approach and juggling options in the game IMO, his only problem is priority (which he has none of lol).

Herein lies a self-contradiction.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly, I think Falcon is better than Ivysaur right now at least.

Ivysaur CAN'T DO DAMAGE. Falcon has attack options that do some OK damage. Ivysaur's air game is awful. Captain Falcon's is mediocre. Ivysaur never recovers. Captain Falcon can recover.

What Ivysaur wins in is having some telegraphed kill options that are very strong, and a slow moving and hard to control projectile. Not to mention it wins in grab range by a lot.