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Can you DI Fsmashes in Melee?

Zodiac

Zodiac

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DI is well balanced in melee, in brawl all you have to do is hold the control stick the oppisite way and and tada! you live 100% longer than you should. Its just that in melee it takes more finesse to be able to DI anything quickly and accuratley

1.because theres less freeze frames in melee and

2.because its harder to di in melee and its a babies job to di in brawl.

Watch the videos of ken in mlg with the commentators, you'll see just how good di can be.
 
Leech

Leech

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DI in melee is hard but its possible.. it really helps me a lot especially at tournys and no one else can do them.
 
MikeHaggarTHAKJB

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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okiyama said:
you can DI anything that sends you flying and smash DI snything that does any knockback
Click to expand...
It doesn't actually even require knockback do be SDI'd. For example you can SDI fox's Dair. (Maybe that's what you meant though)
And on topic, yes you can DI f-smashes, just like everything else.
BTW people who want to know how DI works and everything can check out Doraki's DI Guide.
 It Covers pretty much everything that there is to know about DI.

There is only one thing that I'm wondering about DI that I'd like to ask if anyone knows: Does ASDI move you far enough to be useful? For example those godly techs in that Magus video somebody linked a few posts ago, are they impossible without ASDI or is just SDI enough (I know both are used).
Thanks for any input. :)
 
Magus420

Magus420

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TLink_King said:
How did Ken do that?
Click to expand...
That video is pretty dumb. He does nothing beyond basic DI and is just holding Up&Towards the stage on pretty much every one of them. The Link's D-Air one is actually just a clip of him getting shieldstabbed at the top of his shield and not even DIing at all, lmao. That's just how the move sends normally.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
It doesn't actually even require knockback do be SDI'd. For example you can SDI fox's Dair. (Maybe that's what you meant though)
Click to expand...
Fox's D-Air does have knockback (and other moves that appear to not have knockback), but it's extremely weak. You can see it by upping the damage ratio and handicap. To SDI/ASDI it just needs to have hitlag, and you can also do both when your shield gets hit. Shield ASDI is what makes the lightshield edgehog on Marth work. In NTSC v1.0 though there isn't hitlag on attacks that do less than a full 1.0% of damage, so you can't do it with those (they really shouldn't have 'fixed' this in later versions imo).

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
There is only one thing that I'm wondering about DI that I'd like to ask if anyone knows: Does ASDI move you far enough to be useful? For example those godly techs in that Magus video somebody linked a few posts ago, are they impossible without ASDI or is just SDI enough (I know both are used).
Thanks for any input. :)
Click to expand...
They are impossible without ASDI, and actually there wasn't any SDI used. A big difference between SDI and ASDI is that while you can ASDI into any surface to collide with it and be able to tech, you can't use SDI to collide with floors. The reason being is that you can't collide with floors during hitlag which is when SDI is performed, but since ASDI actually takes place on the 1st frame of knockback (the movements of the KB and ASDI are combined), you can hit the floor as long as the downward movement of the ASDI is enough to counteract the upward movement of the knockback on the 1st frame.

This is why it's much easier to ground tech lower angled sending moves, since less of the knockback is upward on the first frame and is more easily balanced out by the ASDI. It's also why there's a limit to how long it can work (assuming the lowest trajectory you can get on the move with DI is above parallel with the floor), even on low angle moves since eventually the knockback will be so great that there will be enough upward movement. It also depends on the floor's slope, and if being knocked into and upward slope you can hit it while being at higher damage, and on downward slopes it will stop working at lower percents.

It's because of the upward slope that Jiggs can tech the ground after being hit by a Falcon Punch with over 300% here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFxdYCr5yAI

...while the normal cap on flat ground is under 60%. Your momentum doesn't get cancelled after a tech, so if it hasn't worn off by the time the techroll has ended you'll slide off and keep going. Some things prevent you from sliding off though so they can be used to stall at the edge while the momentum wears off.
 
MikeHaggarTHAKJB

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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^^Wow O.O Thanks alot for the info :D. This is going to save my life alot when I miss a laggy move and know I'm gonna get hit
BTW your sig (gif to the furthest right) really shows that you know what you're talking about ;)
 
Witchking_of_Angmar

Witchking_of_Angmar

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Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
Btw, here's some info from Magus' sexy vid:


Magus420 (2 years ago) Show Hide
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*Weight* - Lighter chars get more use of it since weight doesn't matter much when teching, but they die at much lower % if they were to take the hit to the air.

*Most Useful For* - Pichu. Very good traction, Lightest, Fast falling speed, Very good recovery.

*Least Useful For* - Luigi. Worst traction, Average weight, Floatiest, Poor recovery.
Magus420 (2 years ago) Show Hide
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*Traction* - Low traction will make them slide off further, making a good horizontal recovery more important.

*Recovery* - Good horizontal recovery should be considered with low traction characters. It isn't really important on chars with a decent amount of traction since they would've died off the side at that point without teching anyway.

*Falling Speed* - Faster fallers will be able to tech along the ground at higher damages than floatier chars.
Magus420 (2 years ago) Show Hide
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The most important thing by far when it comes to sliding too far off afterwards is traction. You have to be sure to tech-roll though. It cuts down the amount you slip off by A LOT. Peach's uncharged d-smash will have Luigi slip too far off if he tries to tech it after around 90%, even though he can survive when DIing up&towards the stage. Link however, can make it back even when he's above 200%. If he were to take the hit normally at that percent he'd go flying off VERY fast.
Magus420 (2 years ago) Show Hide
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Jigg's pound doesn't actually help all that much though. If you do this on a really low hit (falco's d-smash for instance) you'll be pounding while still going flying off the edge of the screen and die.


Magus420 (2 years ago) Show Hide
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Before or as you're getting hit hold perpendicular to the direction you're sent normally towards the ground/wall/etc on the control stick, and hold the c-stick directly towards the ground/wall/etc. Then hit L or R to tech before you're hit (I think it's within 1/3 of a second before you get set flying). So for marth's f-smash on level ground, if you go diag up/left, hold down/left on control, down on c-stick, and then tech.


Everything taken from the 7th and 8th page of youtube comments on the doubel stick techs video. Helps for some people maybe?
 
Magus420

Magus420

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MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:
BTW your sig (gif to the furthest right) really shows that you know what you're talking about ;)
Click to expand...
The GIFs in my sig are randomized. Right now for me the GIF on the far right is the 2 doods eating cereal... so yes, I totally agree :laugh:

Also, an important factor of ground teching I didn't know about back then has to do with how their sprite's environment collision box reshapes after 10 frames of being in the 'getting hit' position. With most characters this reshaping has the lower part of their collision box lift up off the ground, so if the attack has 10 or more frames of hitlag it makes it less effective to impossible to dual stick tech it with those characters.

Attacks that are electrical like CF's knee/Zelda's kicks/Samus' charge shot/Pika's f-smash/etc have 50% more hitlag on the person they hit, so you generally won't be able to tech those attacks unless you're a character that doesn't lift off the ground.



This is a list of the characters that get lifted off the floor after 10 frames:

Bowser .......... YES
Captain Falcon .. YES
Donkey Kong ..... NO
Dr Mario ........ YES
Falco ........... YES
Fox ............. YES
Game & Watch .... NO
Ganondorf ....... YES
Ice Climbers .... YES (small)
Jigglypuff ...... NO
Kirby ........... NO
Link ............ YES
Luigi ........... YES
Mario ........... YES
Marth ........... YES
Mewtwo .......... YES (barely)
Ness ............ YES
Peach ........... YES
Pichu ........... YES (small)
Pikachu ......... YES (small)
Roy ............. YES
Samus ........... YES
Sheik ........... YES
Yoshi ........... YES
Young Link ...... YES
Zelda ........... YES

-DK, G&W, Jiggs, & Kirby have no reduced ability to tech high hitlag attacks.

-Mewtwo has a slightly lowered ability.

-ICs, Pikachu, & Pichu may be able to but it will be significantly worse.

-Everyone else probably won't be able to DS tech high hitlag attacks at any decent percent if at all.

I also wasn't correct in what I said back then about weight. It actually seems to follow weight a lot more than fall speed (fall speed acceleration is what matters in this case). I imagine it's because the reduced launch speed has more of an effect at that point in time than fallspeed accel.

Also, a neat thing against Peach's D-Smash (because it sends backwards) is that if you DS tech and release the buttons before your techroll ends, you'll enter the teeter animation and it will prevent you from sliding off. If you walk/crouch/shield/etc you'll slip off though if you still have momentum.
 
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