Can we stop using mics that go out when it gets too loud?

[t3h Icy]

Seriously, it's a huge hype killer. I'm sure there are reasons for it such as worrying about the audio getting to a point where it's deafening, and it could be annoying if someone has to constantly adjust their volume while watching, but Melee is supposed to be hype and exciting! It's one of the main reasons HMW and Phil were always great commentators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ9c-2lAld4

Perfect example of how everything gets ridiculously loud when the most amazing things happen. If this set were played out with mics cracking, it would have been WAY less exciting.

 

[LLDL]

yeah that is really bothering me

 

[Zankoku]

The issue is not the mics but rather the limits of the audio mixer. When things get too loud it draws more power than the mixer can output and we get that moment of silence because it'd be bad if we got audio clipping instead, which is REALLY annoying to hear and can potentially damage audio equipment. Pretty much the only way to solve this is to have a more powerful mixer, but such things aren't exactly cheap.

 

[Ziodyne]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who REALLY LIKES IT when the mics go out

You can tell a venue gets CRAZY HYPE when the mic can't take the screaming anymore

 

[Strong Badam]

great idea
when are you going to buy mics that don't have this problem for our streamers?

 

[standardtoaster]

How much would an audio mixer that doesn't go out when the mics get loud cost?

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

The issue is not the mics but rather the limits of the audio mixer. When things get too loud it draws more power than the mixer can output and we get that moment of silence because it'd be bad if we got audio clipping instead, which is REALLY annoying to hear and can potentially damage audio equipment. Pretty much the only way to solve this is to have a more powerful mixer, but such things aren't exactly cheap.

Couldn't you just compress the hell out of the mic signal?

...I'm guessing that's a feature only the "more powerful mixers" have =/

 

[t3h Icy]

I ask because this was never a problem we had before, so what's changed since then?

 

[Skrlx]

People got louder, so the hype cannot be contained anymore, lol.

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

I ask because this was never a problem we had before, so what's changed since then?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it's just because we weren't using mixers at all, just ****ty headsets connected to laptops. When people yelled there was just a ton of audio clipping (which is why those old videos have such a "rough sounding" audio).

 

[AXE 09]

Imagine how much less hype this video would be if the audio went out when it got too loud D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4

 

[Kyu Puff]

Couldn't you just compress the hell out of the mic signal?

...I'm guessing that's a feature only the "more powerful mixers" have =/

We should just be running the mics through an interface into a DAW, then use a compressor plugin with a ratio of 1:infinity (limiter) or 1:some negative number (reduces the peaks to below input level). Cheap and easy.

Edit: I guess you can't really fix the clipping problem without getting real mics (so they aren't right up against people's mouths) or preamps with more headroom. But compression would make it easier on the ears/speakers.

 

[Xyzz]

I usually think it's pretty funny when the mic cuts out on the screaming guy.
Then again, I tend to find most things funny.

And actually would probably prefer to hear the guy's incoherent screaming for some weird reason I can't explain.

 

[hungrybox]

Lol, me vs. Armada in Apex 2013.The reaction to my last rest of the set blew out all the Mics. I usually find it pretty funny.

 

[JKJ]

Hbox, is your new profile image from Breaking Bad?
Because that show kicks ass.

Anyways, I actually can appreciate when the mics blow out, it feels so hype to me. When M2K finishes off Mango at Apex 2013, and Prog just yells "MEW2KIIIIINNNG TAKES IT WITH AUTHORI-"
and then the mic blows out, I get so f**king hype every time.

 

[t3h Icy]

Not directly the same thing, but yeah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uww-o1MoJJI

The crowd and the energy is what really makes it.

 

[Papapaint]

The issue is not the mics but rather the limits of the audio mixer. When things get too loud it draws more power than the mixer can output and we get that moment of silence because it'd be bad if we got audio clipping instead, which is REALLY annoying to hear and can potentially damage audio equipment. Pretty much the only way to solve this is to have a more powerful mixer, but such things aren't exactly cheap.

This isn't true. You could easily get an inexpensive limiter or compressor and put it in the chain ahead of the mixer.

 

[Kyu Puff]

This isn't true. You could easily get an inexpensive limiter or compressor and put it in the chain ahead of the mixer.

Only if they're using external preamps, but I'm assuming they're using the preamps in the mixer. Compressors work on line level signals.

 

[Papapaint]

Only if they're using external preamps, but I'm assuming they're using the preamps in the mixer. Compressors work on line level signals.

That's not true, there are plenty of compressors that work with unbalanced signals and plenty of limiters that can provide phantom power to the mics if they are using condensers. It's possible to set up a preamp/limiter external combo for under $100 easily.

 

[Papapaint]

http://www.amazon.com/ROLLS-CL151-G...cal-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1370789894&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/ART-Studio-Preamp-Limiter-Presets/dp/B0002E56IA/ref=pd_sim_sbs_MI_1

 

[Kyu Puff]

From what I can tell, those are both preamps that feed into compressor/limiter circuits. The compressor is still operating on a line level signal. So, like I said, you need an external preamp. And if the mixer preamps are clipping, I don't think replacing them with more cheap, low-headroom pres is going to fix the problem...

 

[Papapaint]

From what I can tell, those are both preamps that feed into compressor/limiter circuits. The compressor is still operating on a line level signal. So, like I said, you need an external preamp. And if the mixer preamps are clipping, I don't think replacing them with more cheap, low-headroom pres is going to fix the problem...

I'm well aware of what those units are. I've done professional audio and video work for two major TV production networks--Discovery and PBS--and worked as an intern for two audio production companies before that, done live audio reinforcement for three theater production companies, and do audio work casually for fun-- so please don't dismiss my comments offhandedly.

If the mixer preamps are clipping to the point where they are going into circuit protection shutdown, then yes, a cheap preamp-limiter circuit WILL prevent that from happening. A limiter circuit like the one in those units is not particularly amazing sounding, and it will still distort, but it will distort on the front end while outputting a relatively consistent line level voltage reading.

 

[Papapaint]

I'm well aware of what those units are. I've done professional audio and video work for two major TV production networks--Discovery and PBS--and worked as an intern for two audio production companies before that, done live audio reinforcement for three theater production companies, and do audio work casually for fun-- so please don't dismiss my comments offhandedly.

If the mixer preamps are clipping to the point where they are going into circuit protection shutdown, then yes, a cheap preamp-limiter circuit WILL prevent that from happening. A limiter circuit like the one in those units is not particularly amazing sounding, and it will still distort, but it will distort on the front end while outputting a relatively consistent line level voltage reading.

For that matter, I suspect that if the human voice is causing clipping to such an extreme that it's kicking on the circuit protection, then the gain is turned up too high to begin with. A hard knee compression circuit with some makeup gain in the post stage would also solve the matter at the cost of audio clarity.

 

[StickandFluid]

don't fix it, I find it so damn funny "OH!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ oh my god"

 

[Kyu Puff]

I'm well aware of what those units are. I've done professional audio and video work for two major TV production networks--Discovery and PBS--and worked as an intern for two audio production companies before that, done live audio reinforcement for three theater production companies, and do audio work casually for fun-- so please don't dismiss my comments offhandedly.

If the mixer preamps are clipping to the point where they are going into circuit protection shutdown, then yes, a cheap preamp-limiter circuit WILL prevent that from happening. A limiter circuit like the one in those units is not particularly amazing sounding, and it will still distort, but it will distort on the front end while outputting a relatively consistent line level voltage reading.

I didn't dismiss your comment offhandedly, I gave it a serious response. No need for the CV.

I said "compressors operate on line level signals, so you would need an external preamp". You said "that's not true, look at these compressors (which are actually preamps that feed into compressors)". My point was just that in order to compress the signal, you still need to boost it to line level. The devices you linked me to do just that, but they are still external preamps and don't contradict what I said.

It might be possible using one of those preamp/limiter boxes to turn down the preamp gain just enough that the louder passages don't clip, but are still detected and reduced by the compressor. The compressed signal could then be amplified by the mixer preamp, simulating greater headroom (at the cost of reduced signal-to-noise ratio). Might be worth a try.

Edit:

A limiter circuit like the one in those units is not particularly amazing sounding, and it will still distort, but it will distort on the front end while outputting a relatively consistent line level voltage reading.

Fair enough. I was thinking more along the lines of trying to get rid of the distortion completely, but it's true that this would stop the mixer from cutting out. I don't think we disagree with each other.

 

[Juggleguy]

Really confused about why some people think the mic cutting out is more hype. You crazy. Take Axe's example, how awful would it have been if something like the Wombo Combo lost its audio in the middle of the clip?

 

[MonkUnit]

There have also been moments where the hype has died down a bit and the commentators are trying to get back to commentating and the mic isn't picking them up because everyone is too loud. If the mic didn't cut out, that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Papapaint]

I said "compressors operate on line level signals, so you would need an external preamp". You said "that's not true, look at these compressors (which are actually preamps that feed into compressors)". My point was just that in order to compress the signal, you still need to boost it to line level. The devices you linked me to do just that, but they are still external preamps and don't contradict what I said.

The links were to show that it can be done cheaply. There are hundreds of compressors that work with unbalanced signals (any guitar or bass compressor "pedal" or rackmount compressor is exactly that). However, if they're using mics that need phantom power, than it makes far more sense to use a preamp/compressor unit so that voltage levels are even more stable.

My points still stand: there are compressors that work with unbalanced signals and are very inexpensive, and there are lower quality compressor/preamp combinations that make more financial sense.

 

[KrIsP!]

Really confused about why some people think the mic cutting out is more hype. You crazy. Take Axe's example, how awful would it have been if something like the Wombo Combo lost its audio in the middle of the clip?

I love the cut audio, especially when it runs really long and I just start laughing at how the hype cannot be contained. However, that was such a good example and I REALLY hope vgbootcamp and clash invest in whatever it takes to get some sound back. Should be first on their list, their quality is good enough as is...let's hear the return of HMW yelling ohhhh for the return of ken.

 

[Juggleguy]

Completely disagreed. Any time the mic cuts out, a piece of Smash history is lost. You might think this is anal and nitpicky, but think back to some of the greatest moments in sports history. They're almost always captured and iconified by the announcer's call over the action (ex: "a spec-TAC-ular move by Michael Jordan!"), and montages of past sporting events are almost always accompanied by the commentary that went with them at the time. The same can be said for e-sports and Smash events -- you lose the audio, you lose the opportunity to create a full legacy for that moment in Smash history.

 

[Kyu Puff]

The links were to show that it can be done cheaply. There are hundreds of compressors that work with unbalanced signals (any guitar or bass compressor "pedal" or rackmount compressor is exactly that). However, if they're using mics that need phantom power, than it makes far more sense to use a preamp/compressor unit so that voltage levels are even more stable.

My points still stand: there are compressors that work with unbalanced signals and are very inexpensive, and there are lower quality compressor/preamp combinations that make more financial sense.

You're right, I shouldn't have made a blanket statement. MOST rackmount compressors work on line level signals. Yes, there are plenty of compressors for guitar/bass that work on instrument level signals. However, load impedance is way too high -> decreased current flow -> lower output; crank up the gain and you get a noisy signal. Even with an impedance converter, the mic level signal is 10dB lower than a typical instrument level signal (probably lower if using a dynamic mic) and is unlikely to trigger any compression. So, you would need an impedance converter, preamp (maybe just an inline preamp with 10-20dB boost), and power supply (for condensers) just to get a remotely useable sound. So, sorry I didn't specifically mention all of this. The point is you would be hardpressed to find a compressor that works on a mic level signal.

Your second point is valid. As I said in my previous post, I don't disagree with you, I was just thinking about the problem differently and misunderstood your reason for posting those links.

 

[Bones0]

A hard knee compression circuit with some makeup gain in the post stage would also solve the matter at the cost of audio clarity.

I'll get Falcon right on that.