Can we have a serious discussion on Suicide Moves?

[Terotrous]

With the exception of Ganondorf (who always wins according to the results screen), a suicide move results in either a loss for the initiator or sudden death...depending on the stage and which version of the game you're on. It's more consistent to hand the initiator the loss in the event of sudden death and go by the results screen in all cases otherwise.

Praxis linked a Reddit post further up with some data.

But it seems like there are some cases where the result is a consistent sudden death (ie, if Kirby swallows you on Town and City's platform as it goes offstage). In a case like this, I don't really see why the person who got swallowed should win.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But it seems like there are some cases where the result is a consistent sudden death (ie, if Kirby swallows you on Town and City's platform as it goes offstage). In a case like this, I don't really see why the person who got swallowed should win.

Probably because it's easier to have a blanket rule and not worry too much about niche edge cases. Otherwise they start listing every possible case and that's just a lot of work I doubt they want to do.

 

[Terotrous]

Probably because it's easier to have a blanket rule and not worry too much about niche edge cases. Otherwise they start listing every possible case and that's just a lot of work I doubt they want to do.

Well, "initiator wins on sudden death" is also consistent and easily applied. I suppose you can argue that in some cases the result of the suicide will be unknown until the game decides, but honestly I have no problem with that. If you end the match with a suicide move that could end in your defeat and you lose for it, that's your own fault. At least this way you can still use suicides where the result is known to be a consistent sudden death to your advantage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, "initiator wins on sudden death" is also consistent and easily applied. I suppose you can argue that in some cases the result of the suicide will be unknown until the game decides, but honestly I have no problem with that. If you end the match with a suicide move that could end in your defeat and you lose for it, that's your own fault. At least this way you can still use suicides where the result is known to be a consistent sudden death to your advantage.

Ganondorf is the only person who wins when they suicide. All others either lose or go to sudden death, and I believe which one happens varies between 3DS/Wii U versions, and possibly even stage? Not sure on that one for all characters. Making the initiator lose in the event of sudden death is more consistent overall and preferable to trying to remember whether it's viable to suicide in the first place.

 

[Terotrous]

preferable to trying to remember whether it's viable to suicide in the first place.

I don't like that logic. Learning the subtle nuances of your character is always key to getting better, and I see no reason why that wouldn't reliable suicide KO options.

I also don't see it as a problem if the tech is stage dependent. Many characters have stage-dependent strategies or tricks. For example, Pac-Man can go offstage and toss his key into the stage and catch it to use as an item, but only if the stage has a wall. Things like that are good for the game IMO.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't think its a good idea to let the victory screen play out if luck is involved in determining the winner.If a character always dies first in a suicide its not the responsibility of the ruleset to buff the character.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't like that logic. Learning the subtle nuances of your character is always key to getting better, and I see no reason why that wouldn't reliable suicide KO options.

I also don't see it as a problem if the tech is stage dependent. Many characters have stage-dependent strategies or tricks. For example, Pac-Man can go offstage and toss his key into the stage and catch it to use as an item, but only if the stage has a wall. Things like that are good for the game IMO.

Throwing the key at a wall doesn't immediately end the game and declare a winner on the spot when Pac-Man attempts it. And the point is that suicide KO's aren't reliable, with the exception of Ganondorf. There are a lot of variables that go into determining the winner.

Lastly it's a point of consistency. Suppose we go with your preferred option and award the suicider the win in the event of sudden death. You now have a situation where the exact same move performed on different stages can result in someone else winning. This is not consistent and IMO not something we want to encourage.

Also remember that out of every character that can perform a suicide move, Ganondorf is the only one who the game ever declares the winner as a result. (He also always wins, so it's internally consistent on that front.)

 

[Terotrous]

You now have a situation where the exact same move performed on different stages can result in someone else winning. This is not consistent and IMO not something we want to encourage.

Uhh, of course when you play on different stages some things play out differently, that's the whole reason different stages exist. A back air into the stage that stage spikes on FD would not spike on Wily's Castle Omega, potentially ending the match in one game but not in another. However, I knew the stage was Final Destination when I performed that back air, otherwise I would have done something else. Suicide KOs aren't much different. If I know that the suicide KO results in a win (via sudden death) in this situation, I'll go for it, otherwise I'll choose a different option.

 

[Blacknight99923]

You now have a situation where the exact same move performed on different stages can result in someone else winning. This is not consistent and IMO not something we want to encourage.

It's still 100% consistent unless the same stage is capable of producing different results at random.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uhh, of course when you play on different stages some things play out differently, that's the whole reason different stages exist. A back air into the stage that stage spikes on FD would not spike on Wily's Castle Omega, potentially ending the match in one game but not in another. However, I knew the stage was Final Destination when I performed that back air, otherwise I would have done something else. Suicide KOs aren't much different. If I know that the suicide KO results in a win (via sudden death) in this situation, I'll go for it, otherwise I'll choose a different option.

Do a 1 stock match on Town & City with Kirby and park him on one of the platforms. Have him Inhale a victim as the platform moves offscreen. Now do the same thing, but have Kirby face the opposite direction. You get different results. If Kirby is facing the blast zone, it goes to sudden death, but if he's facing away, he loses.

If you want to go for a stagespike, you merely need to look at the shape of the stage to know if it's feasible or not. You cannot do the same to determine if a suicide kill is viable.

Lastly I don't think you've directly addressed my main point/question, since we got a bit sidetracked. No character in the game (except Ganondorf) wins via suicide kill -- the game either goes to sudden death or gives the win to the victim. Why do you believe sudden death should count as a win for the initator?

 

[Terotrous]

Do a 1 stock match on Town & City with Kirby and park him on one of the platforms. Have him Inhale a victim as the platform moves offscreen. Now do the same thing, but have Kirby face the opposite direction. You get different results. If Kirby is facing the blast zone, it goes to sudden death, but if he's facing away, he loses.

Still consistent as long as he faces the same direction, and that's under the player's control so it's pretty trivial.

If you want to go for a stagespike, you merely need to look at the shape of the stage to know if it's feasible or not. You cannot do the same to determine if a suicide kill is viable.

The stage geometry is not always totally obvious. For example, on some stages you can kind of "ride the wall" up to the ledge, whereas on others you'll hit something and get stuck. Battlefield is like this, for example. Riding the wall works well on the right side of the stage, but less so on the left. Why? Blame Sakurai.

Lastly I don't think you've directly addressed my main point/question, since we got a bit sidetracked. No character in the game (except Ganondorf) wins via suicide kill -- the game either goes to sudden death or gives the win to the victim. Why do you believe sudden death should count as a win for the initator?

It's widely accepted in the Smash community that Sudden Death is not a satisfactory way to conclude a match, which is why we instead award the match to the person who was "winning" when sudden death was initiated. In the case of a suicide move, it seems to me that this would be the one who initiated the move rather than the one who simply got hit by it.

Now, you could ask why all suicide moves don't win, and if I was in charge of the game they would, but Sakurai in his infinite wisdom has decided that some of them should lose, and it's just not practical to go about overriding that decision when the game clearly decides a winner. However, in the case of a tie I still think it makes sense to award the match to the initiator of the move rather than the recipient.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's widely accepted in the Smash community that Sudden Death is not a satisfactory way to conclude a match, which is why we instead award the match to the person who was "winning" when sudden death was initiated. In the case of a suicide move, it seems to me that this would be the one who initiated the move rather than the one who simply got hit by it.

Now, you could ask why all suicide moves don't win, and if I was in charge of the game they would, but Sakurai in his infinite wisdom has decided that some of them should lose, and it's just not practical to go about overriding that decision when the game clearly decides a winner. However, in the case of a tie I still think it makes sense to award the match to the initiator of the move rather than the recipient.

You slightly misunderstand the point I'm trying to make, I think. Going strictly by the ingame results, the initiator of a suicide move will either lose, or go to sudden death. Now, we agree that sudden death is not ideal for a variety of reasons so we need to decide a winner by other means in that specific situation.

Option 1: If a suicide move results in sudden death, the initiator wins.
Option 2: If a suicide move results in sudden death, the initiator loses.

Option 1 creates a situation where suicide moves literally "sometimes win, sometimes lose" based on admittedly deterministic criteria but it still creates an utterly bizarre and ultimately arbitrary table of where they result in a win or a loss. Option 2 produces a much cleaner result: suicide moves result in a loss. Always. (Except for Ganondorf because apparently Sakurai thinks he's special. Whatever.)

At this point I think we're just arguing in circles. I value the consistency, you value the ability to keep suicides as an ace on a subset of stages.

 

[Terotrous]

Yes, I think we're clear on the two options and the general nuances of each. I just don't really have an issue with any situation where the outcome might be a bit unexpected (for those watching at least) because I think there are many such situations already. For example, if someone challenges a strong aerial with a smash attack, who will win? It depends on very precise hitbox interactions that are almost impossible to figure out ahead of time. But someone is going to come out on top. That's just the way the game goes sometimes.

 

[Chimera]

While I personally prefer suicide moves winning, if the game determines that suicide moves lose, then we should honor that.

This. Fighting the game on who wins a match is silly. Game says Bowser dies first, so Bowser dies first. Don't initiate a suicide move on your last stock. Simple as that.

 

[Praxis]

Do a 1 stock match on Town & City with Kirby and park him on one of the platforms. Have him Inhale a victim as the platform moves offscreen. Now do the same thing, but have Kirby face the opposite direction. You get different results. If Kirby is facing the blast zone, it goes to sudden death, but if he's facing away, he loses.

If you want to go for a stagespike, you merely need to look at the shape of the stage to know if it's feasible or not. You cannot do the same to determine if a suicide kill is viable.

Lastly I don't think you've directly addressed my main point/question, since we got a bit sidetracked. No character in the game (except Ganondorf) wins via suicide kill -- the game either goes to sudden death or gives the win to the victim. Why do you believe sudden death should count as a win for the initator?

Woah, I didn't know about this.

Okay, this is another reason it has to be "sudden death = initiator loses".

Even if you are like @ Terotrous and don't value consistency that much, this is a terrible situation.

When Kirby's suicide depends on the direction he's facing and Bowser's seems to vary based on height- and both of them either lose or go to sudden death...

If Sudden Death = Initiator Wins, then when suicides happen, the commentators and maybe even players won't know who won until the results screen happens. That just seems like a terrible design. Heck, jumping in to a suicide move on purpose will basically be a coinflip in many cases, because if you get sudden death, you win, but if you don't, you lose.

Sudden Death = Initiator Loses, Otherwise Use Game Screen is the only rule that creates a consistent understanding for players/commentators of what is going to happen when someone uses Bowserside or Inhale.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Woah, I didn't know about this.

Okay, this is another reason it has to be "sudden death = initiator loses".

Even if you are like @ Terotrous and don't value consistency that much, this is a terrible situation.

When Kirby's suicide depends on the direction he's facing and Bowser's seems to vary based on height- and both of them either lose or go to sudden death...

If Sudden Death = Initiator Wins, then when suicides happen, the commentators and maybe even players won't know who won until the results screen happens. That just seems like a terrible design. Heck, jumping in to a suicide move on purpose will basically be a coinflip in many cases, because if you get sudden death, you win, but if you don't, you lose.

Sudden Death = Initiator Loses, Otherwise Use Game Screen is the only rule that creates a consistent understanding for players/commentators of what is going to happen when someone uses Bowserside or Inhale.

I did a bit more experimenting and the exact same situation applies to Dedede. Wario, however, wins if he faces the blast zone while biting someone. I expect this is because the victim's model juts out enough to make a difference. (He still loses if facing away or if it's done while falling.)

 

[Pazx]

You slightly misunderstand the point I'm trying to make, I think. Going strictly by the ingame results, the initiator of a suicide move will either lose, or go to sudden death. Now, we agree that sudden death is not ideal for a variety of reasons so we need to decide a winner by other means in that specific situation.

Option 1: If a suicide move results in sudden death, the initiator wins.
Option 2: If a suicide move results in sudden death, the initiator loses.

Option 1 creates a situation where suicide moves literally "sometimes win, sometimes lose" based on admittedly deterministic criteria but it still creates an utterly bizarre and ultimately arbitrary table of where they result in a win or a loss. Option 2 produces a much cleaner result: suicide moves result in a loss. Always. (Except for Ganondorf because apparently Sakurai thinks he's special. Whatever.)

At this point I think we're just arguing in circles. I value the consistency, you value the ability to keep suicides as an ace on a subset of stages.

Option 3: The player with a lower percentage wins.

Also, @ Kirby, D3 and any grabs on T&C platforms: spit or throw, if you fail to do either of these you deserve to lose (and thus I support option 2 for consistency's sake).

 

[Uniit]

Damn it sakurai, why do change bowser like this ? Well, bowsercide is pretty much safer ganoncide, (cannot be break out, function as aerial grab), but bowser is a banned move at the last stock, cutting off his aerials approches. Well, this is like Puff's rest, now sometimes it doesn't star KO, making it punishable on hit, great design.

All this talk about consistency, it make me smile. If both player actually died when bowsercided, it would be all for bowser always win (even when game says he lose).

I'm actualy fine with wario, kirby and de3 lose on sudden deth suicide, as it can be escaped, especially at the last moment.

 

[Terotrous]

If Sudden Death = Initiator Wins, then when suicides happen, the commentators and maybe even players won't know who won until the results screen happens.

Not true, you can just look at the stock icons. If one player has one left, they won. If all stock icons are gone, it's sudden death.


Also, note that these "WHO WON?!" situations aren't unheardof. There's been plenty of matches where both players get star KO'd or one person is in the process of dying off the top while the other is falling to their death or whatever. This is usually pretty hype for spectators.

That just seems like a terrible design. Heck, jumping in to a suicide move on purpose will basically be a coinflip in many cases, because if you get sudden death, you win, but if you don't, you lose.

It's still not really a coinflip because it's deterministic. It's just not obvious at a glance how it works.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just do what the result screen says.
I wish the community stopped muddying this up on Project M as well with suicide rules as well just because of Bowser in brawl.

I still stand by always doing what the screen says. Especially if it is predictable to sone extent, which in smash 4 it almost always is.

 

[Terotrous]

Just do what the result screen says.

I think we pretty much agree on this now, the question is what we do when the match goes to sudden death.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd say just do a tie breaker in that situation.

3 minute 1 stock.

 

[TheLostKokiri]

It seems to me that the only clear exception Sakurai intended for this situation is Ganon. Surely if it was intended for any other character to win in this manner, he would have made it so, like is the case with Ganon.

In terms of a competitive standpoint, I'd much rather have a consistent ruling so I don't have to memorise which stages I'm safe against a Bowserside. It just causes unnecessary complications.

 

[Terotrous]

I'd say just do a tie breaker in that situation.

3 minute 1 stock.

I dunno, something about this sets off a red flag in my mind. I feel like there's definite potential for abuse.

 

[Chimera]

I'd say just do a tie breaker in that situation.

3 minute 1 stock.

I think this would work pretty well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I dunno, something about this sets off a red flag in my mind. I feel like there's definite potential for abuse.

And awarding the initiator a win lacks that potential?

 

[Terotrous]

And awarding the initiator a win lacks that potential?

If we award the win based on any deterministic scenario (either initiator wins or initiator loses), it's at least consistent. When you basically strike a match entirely and leave the result up to a 3-minute playoff instead you could get more unpredictable results IMO.

 

[Praxis]

I think this would work pretty well.

Well, you still have situations where depending on a number of complex variables you may either get an initiator loss or a sudden death, but it's an improvement.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Just adding here that I saw Dedede Neutral B suicides counted as a win for the initiator in the Apex ruleset.
But I've experienced a sudden death that resulted from Dedede Up-B on the way down.
If a Sudden Death resulted from the Dedede upB, what would an official ruling be on the match?

 

[Z1GMA]

No. I thrive on it.

 

[JmacAttack]

As I understand it, Apex rules state that the initiator of a suicide move on last stock wins regardless of the results screen. This is a problem because some characters can survive suicide moves. Furthermore, since the game immediately ends upon either player losing their last stock, there is no opportunity to wait and see if Villager survived or not -- every bottom blast line ever is located well below the camera limits. Who's to say if Villager managed to double jump in time to survive? That turns into he-said she-said contests which are a terrible way to resolve result disputes.

tl;dr in a last stock situation where the game freezes the moment either player dies, it's impossible to tell if the other player would have truly died too.

Bowsercide is not legally considered a suicide move per Apex rules. Villager would win.

 

[Locke 06]

http://smashboards.com/threads/megaman-crash-bomb-kamikaze-in-depth-look.386324/#post-18372170
#Relevant (see part 2 in particular)

 

[dangeraider]

I just really hate how in For Glory Team Smash if I Ganoncide an opponent they get the point... mostly because half the time I'm just trying to back on the stage and do it by accident.

 

[Jerodak]

Okay, someone tested for me.
Link:
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...discussion_on_suicide_moves/cngxgl6?context=3


Basically, Bowser's suicide will either be a loss or a sudden death DEPENDING ON THE STAGE.

0.o

This is indeed the case, @-Kagato- Actually did some extensive research and produced this list.

"I examined all the Omega stages as well as any stage I think might become legal as a neutral or counterpick, and these are my findings:

*Note: Unlockable stages will be added as I unlock them

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone"

And more recently @Zigsta researched the stages which were not included in the previous list and came up with these results.

"Test result time!

Smashville = Bowser dies first
Omega Smashville = Sudden Death
Duck Hunt = Sudden Death
Omega Duck Hunt = Sudden Death

Tested against a level 9 CPU in training mode set to jump.

Also I've been noticing how it seems that we have even less control of which direction Klaw lands, even when Bowser has a large lead (and therefore the most control). I know other people have talked about this too. I've been up by 100 and gotten cheesed. For grins I tried holding the control stick in the desired direction and mashing the c stick in the desired direction...and it gave me MUCH more control. Needs more testing. Try it out for yourselves! Maybe this will fix at least some of our Klaw woes.

In the mean time, rest assured that Duck Hunt is our friend. "

Hope this helps!

 

[Jebus244]

Is it crazy to play out a sudden death if that occurs? This would give the suicide initiator something to think about when trying for a suicide. If their character is one that goes to sudden death, it's like a 50/50 situation. Then with the bobombs flying around, their is no guarantee who will win. I mean, if there is no agreement on what the outcome should be... It seems to make sense. Or sudden death could result in a 1 stock match, but I think sudden death is a more epic, audience friendly outcome.

Edit: Players might even get good at dodging the bob-ombs and suddenly, sudden death becomes an anxious anticipation for players and an eager anticipation for spectators.

 

[Terotrous]

Is it crazy to play out a sudden death if that occurs?

The competitive community really, really hates sudden death. Look at the response to Nintendo's first Smash 4 tournament for example.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In a tournament setting, people seek to reduce luck and variance as much as possible. If three Bob-ombs spawn on top of me before any spawn on top of my opponent and I lost a $500 prize because of it, I'd be pretty upset.

EDIT: Please ignore my title. ;3

 

[Jebus244]

In a tournament setting, people seek to reduce luck and variance as much as possible. If three Bob-ombs spawn on top of me before any spawn on top of my opponent and I lost a $500 prize because of it, I'd be pretty upset.

EDIT: Please ignore my title. ;3

Yeah, but if you were the one Kirby swallowed, you'd be glad to have the chance. And I don't think suicide moves like kirbies should be an insta win. My opinion, but it seems like a gimmick, where as it's the function of Ganon's sideB.

The competitive community really, really hates sudden death. Look at the response to Nintendo's first Smash 4 tournament for example.

The competitive community can't seem to agree on anything, so if this upsets everyone, I think that's the best we're going to get.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, but if you were the one Kirby swallowed, you'd be glad to have the chance. And I don't think suicide moves like kirbies should be an insta win. My opinion, but it seems like a gimmick, where as it's the function of Ganon's sideB.

It's pretty trivial to mash out of Kirby/Dedede/Wario Neutral-B compared to past games, though in most cases the game outright awards the win to the "victim" instead of KOing them at the same time. All in all, it's generally a terrible idea to do this with those characters on their last life.

For Bowser, most stages also have the opponent live for a frame longer, while Ganondorf always wins. The point is that Sudden Death rarely kicks in in Smash 4 outside of a time-out, and in the case of a time-out, it's the opposite of an instant win, considering both players had 6-8 minutes to make something happen.

 

[NegaMawile]

In my opinion any suicide that leads to a sudden death should result in a loss for the initiator. At the end of the day, regardless of if you landed the move or not a poor option was chosen, one that will never, through game design lead to a win (bar Ganondorf of course). A player should not be rewarded for making a bad move, that makes zero sense. Landing the move is a non issue. I can land a curveball purposely on the inside corner against Jose Bautista. Chances are that ball is already in the bleachers (Baseball Reference).

The result of a Suicide (bar ganoncide) is either a loss or a Sudden Death match none of the options (That aren't player controlled) are I win. Therefore you didn't win you lost, and now you know not to toss that curveball again.

TL:DR

Smash has three options for outcome of regular play. Win, Lose, Sudden Death.
Suicide (bar ganoncide) results in a Sudden Death or Loss.
Sudden Death is not an option for competitive play.
Suicides therefore end in a loss.