Can we have a serious discussion on Suicide Moves?

[Blankshore]

So, being relatively new to the competitive side to Smash (but trying to learn!) my question is, how many suicide moves are there, really? We have Bowser's side-b and Ganon's side-b. Neither of those characters are exactly high up in the tier list. It seems to me that those characters should be awarded any advantage they can get, especially if it's in their moveset. Ganon's Side-B is specifically designed to be a VERY high-risk, high reward move. It doesn't seem like many people have a problem with that one, though. It seems to be specifically bowser's side-b, since it results in a sudden death. Sudden Death is pretty unfair, but I guess I would come down on the side of simply banning the move IF IT DETERMINES THE GAME. Sort of like the way fouls work in baseball. The first two foul balls count toward your strike, but the pitcher needs to actually strike you out for the third. I think Bowser suicides should be allowed, but not if it takes you to the sudden death screen. If a Bowser suicides for the last stock, that should be considered a loss on his part, or in baseball terms, a "walk."

 

[Pazx]

So, being relatively new to the competitive side to Smash (but trying to learn!) my question is, how many suicide moves are there, really? We have Bowser's side-b and Ganon's side-b. Neither of those characters are exactly high up in the tier list. It seems to me that those characters should be awarded any advantage they can get, especially if it's in their moveset. Ganon's Side-B is specifically designed to be a VERY high-risk, high reward move. It doesn't seem like many people have a problem with that one, though. It seems to be specifically bowser's side-b, since it results in a sudden death. Sudden Death is pretty unfair, but I guess I would come down on the side of simply banning the move IF IT DETERMINES THE GAME. Sort of like the way fouls work in baseball. The first two foul balls count toward your strike, but the pitcher needs to actually strike you out for the third. I think Bowser suicides should be allowed, but not if it takes you to the sudden death screen. If a Bowser suicides for the last stock, that should be considered a loss on his part, or in baseball terms, a "walk."

We shouldn't attempt to make certain characters better or worse in the rules, just because Bowser is bad doesn't mean he should win or anything like that (I know that's not actually what you were suggested but your first few sentences seem like you might be open to this). Also, Ganon's side-b always makes him win, never sudden death, so nobody complains about it.

Edit: also this entire discussion is only relevant to the use of suicide moves on both player's last stocks, if you have 3 stocks left there's no discussion to be had about bowsercide.

Suicide moves off the top of my head:
Ganon side-b
Bowser side-b
Wario chomp
Kirby inhale
DDD inhale
ROB upthrow

there might be more.

 

[S_B]

We shouldn't attempt to make certain characters better or worse in the rules, just because Bowser is bad doesn't mean he should win or anything like that (I know that's not actually what you were suggested but your first few sentences seem like you might be open to this). Also, Ganon's side-b always makes him win, never sudden death, so nobody complains about it.

Edit: also this entire discussion is only relevant to the use of suicide moves on both player's last stocks, if you have 3 stocks left there's no discussion to be had about bowsercide.

Suicide moves off the top of my head:
Ganon side-b
Bowser side-b
Wario chomp
Kirby inhale
DDD inhale
ROB upthrow

there might be more.

Only the ones that go to SD are problematic, and even then, most tournaments award the win to the initiator in those cases.

The only one that's a real issue is Bowsercide, because it goes to SD on SOME stages and Bowser dies first on others, thanks to a bug left in the game after they fixed the flying man/Nabbit glitch.

In that case, just know the stages where it SDs and it'll be fine.

 

[Pazx]

Only the ones that go to SD are problematic, and even then, most tournaments award the win to the initiator in those cases.

The only one that's a real issue is Bowsercide, because it goes to SD on SOME stages and Bowser dies first on others, thanks to a bug left in the game after they fixed the flying man/Nabbit glitch.

In that case, just know the stages where it SDs and it'll be fine.

This was the case previously, however as of 1.1.1 (I believe) it is no longer stage dependent and is at least partially positioning dependent, with all the different variables it is more or less a random chance whether Bowser loses or forces sudden death.

Almost all Australian rulesets say 1 stock 3 minute rematch in the case of sudden death induced by a suicide move (INCLUDING Kirby/D3/etc.), awarding the win to the initiator is a questionable decision imo.

 

[S_B]

Almost all Australian rulesets say 1 stock 3 minute rematch in the case of sudden death induced by a suicide move (INCLUDING Kirby/D3/etc.), awarding the win to the initiator is a questionable decision imo.

The game gave the win to Bowser previously when he used it on last stock and it wasn't until after the Flying Man glitch fix that the current situation came around.

However, they recently gave Bowser more control over the move, making it harder for it to be used against him, which feels like a bandaid fix for the initial problem they created and it feels like they probably can't fix it without rewriting major parts of the game's code or something. That or they just don't care.

In any case, awarding SD to the initiator is usually what tournaments in the US do because it saves time and so long as everyone knows what's going to happen, it's not a problem. Some do still use the 1 stock rematch on SD, which is still a good answer, I find. What really matters is that everyone knows in advance what to expect.

Of course, it'd be best if they just fixed the damn move so it worked consistently...

 

[wizrad]

I'm picking up Bowser after the great buffs he got this patch, but if they don't fix him when Corrin and Bayonetta come out/whenever the last patch will be, I will be dropping him. His side B is so stupid. He should win. But he doesn't, and it's not even that he loses, he loses or ties RANDOMLY! Absolutely ridiculous...

This really isn't an issue of rulings. This is an issue of a coding slip-up that needs to be corrected.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fun thing is that if feels random at the large scale, but at the very moment the move is initiated, the outcome is not.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm picking up Bowser after the great buffs he got this patch, but if they don't fix him when Corrin and Bayonetta come out/whenever the last patch will be, I will be dropping him. His side B is so stupid. He should win. But he doesn't, and it's not even that he loses, he loses or ties RANDOMLY! Absolutely ridiculous...

This really isn't an issue of rulings. This is an issue of a coding slip-up that needs to be corrected.

He used to win, but that caused a glitch on Magicant where if he did it to the Flying Man then Bowser would be stuck at the bottom of the stage in his slam animation. Needless to say this needed to be fixed posthaste. We can talk all day about whether Bowser should still have been allowed to win vs. players, but for now we need to deal with what we have and that's Bowser losing or the game going to SD.

More germane to the discussion, the subject of suicide moves came up in this match, ROB vs. Cloud on Dream Land. ROB's uthrow at the ledge while Whispy Woods was doing his thing resulted in a suicide kill and Cloud was declared the winner by the game, but the ruleset stipulated that ROB was to get the win in such a circumstance. It seems to me that the commentators agreed that the ruling was rather stupid since ROB clearly died first (or else it would have gone to SD), but rules are rules. It also seems like this growing sort of awareness is making people rethink suicide clauses in general. Thoughts?

 

[S_B]

This really isn't an issue of rulings. This is an issue of a coding slip-up that needs to be corrected.

Me and every other Bowser player ever agree with you 1,000%.