Can we grow up about "grills"

[Nixon Corral]

McIntosh is a very odd creature of a man. He seems to hate everything imaginable when it comes to video games despite running a Twitter that is ****ing based around "tropes vs. women in games".

I'd never heard of the guy. Just looked him up. I assumed Sarkeesian was the only one running TVWIVG. Huh.

TVWIVG is flawed in some ways, but it also brings up some valid points.

Let me be clear: I hated the series when it first game out, but I just had to realize that it's possible to criticize my favorite hobby. I can both love video games and realize there's plenty that can be improved about them. And again, I don't really think either McIntosh or Sarkeesian are the ultimate authorities on this, but I don't think they're out of line or wrong either.

 

[Twewy]

Anita is just a mouthpiece for McIntosh. She's even admitted to not liking video games. Not to mention in the few videos her Kickstarter has produced (If you're reading this, how are those expensive shoes you bought, Anita?) she has plagiarized other users' videos and art, and tried to profit off edited versions of official Brawl renders. To say she actually cares about the state of females in video games is like saying Trump isn't losing all of his support.

Video games can be improved in terms of "equality" and whatnot, but not by the scam-running Anita Sarkeesian and the rich white guy who puts all the words in her mouth who thinks Tetris is a metaphor for communism and that violence isn't needed in video games. McIntosh is a dumbass who spews **** he knows will cause controversy and get him and his puppet attention.

But wait, you say, how is McIntosh just Anita's puppetmaster? Check their Twitters. If McIntosh says something he doesn't like about the state of video games expect the same or very similar tweet on Feminist Frequency.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Huh. I could see that. I'm not sure these people are the pure evil some make them out to be, but they're certainly not people I put much stock in.

Nevertheless, I still say that it's much more effective to deconstruct their actual arguments than to deconstruct them. If you can prove that what they say is wrong, they themselves won't matter. I try not to just go about trashing figureheads if I can instead just provide a reasonable argument against their beliefs.

Overall, though, I just don't understand why so many gamers will argue all day about how DLC and Call of Duty and Microsoft are ruining the gaming industry, but they won't even lend an ear to someone saying maybe sexism is also a problem in gaming. They just get so defensive about it! And again, it used to bother me too, but as I try to read more perspectives and think about it some more, a lot of what most people are asking isn't really that radical. Plus, I think the gaming community can grow to accommodate women more without really sacrificing anything it currently has. You can get your weebtrash boob jiggle simulators regardless of whether or not a couple more AAAs per year have a respectable female lead. At least that's the world I wanna live in.

But honestly the number one thing that those interested in growing the female presence in gaming can do is a) participate in initiatives to increase the number of women in computer science, etc, to increase their numbers in the development community b) normalize video games as something that can be "for girls." I'm still not convinced it's a boy's thing aside from a marketing decision that set the precedent ages ago. And maybe I'm wrong! But having more women participate in my favorite hobby sure as hell wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Edit: As a Falcon main, I will say that McIntosh is wrong about video games representing men/what masculinity should be in harmful ways.

 

[Twewy]

They worry about the DLC and companies because those things actually affect video games themselves. Having people feel welcome in the many video game communities out there is nice and all, but people like to focus on that because they believe it affects the overall quality of their hobby, and it's hard not to see that. I, myself, worry more about the state of my favorite hobby than I do others getting into it because if I can be honest, it doesn't exactly affect me if someone is welcomed into a hobby. Gaming as a whole is not a club. To me, what developers and publishers do to video games matters more than people coming into it. I guess you could call me selfish, but I care more about the hobby than I do people getting into it.


However, that doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't be welcomed. My priorites are just on the state of video games rather than the politics of it.

TL;DR I care more about video games than I do people.

 

[Nixon Corral]

And I agree with that! All of those things worry me too, I just think that games also over-cater to the male audience, which makes games worse for women. Like it's on the list of all the currently bad things happening to games.

Tbh the worst thing happening right now is Kojima being ousted at Konami and the impending annualization of the Metal Gear franchise in the form of non-Kojima directed entries. That's just not what this thread is about.

 

[Twewy]

Okay, then let's play out a scenario:

I'm a higher-up at Satanic Visions, and I have approved a meeting between you and me. This meeting involves you giving a pitch for how we here at Satanic Visions can cater to both the male and female audiences, while also developing a female audience centered game. How do we focus on both male and female audiences with one game, and only females with another. Keep in mind that, according to what our SV surveys say, women are drawn more to our casual games and phone games, and that if your female audience targeting pitch isn't either or, you will need to provide how your game will attract female consumers.

Basically, pitch me your ideas on how you can cater to both audiences with one game, while also guaranteeing sales for a female demographic centered game. Sell me on your ideas.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Okay, well again, I think the analytics on this sort of thing are skewed because of the societal nature of how acceptable it is for men/women and boys/girls to play video games (especially to the level of being considered a hobby). That's sort of arguing ought from is. I don't think women don't play video games/prefer casual games by nature, I think they don't play them because video game development is deeply rooted in STEM degree acquisition, and STEM degree acquisition is overwhelmingly male because of all sorts of other social pressures. Consequently, all the men in game development make games for men whether intentionally or unintentionally (because they're just naturally going to do so), and so gaming slowly became a boys' club as a consequence. It's kind of like saying the number of women in politics is representative of the fact that politics is a "men's" thing. It's not that so much as the idea of the non-housewife-woman has only really been gaining ground since the 60s, so we haven't had that many generations for that sort of thing to balance out. And even still, that expectation lingers in lots and lots of households.

Secondly, it's also important to understand that the problem isn't on a micro scale, it's on a macro scale. One game with a male protagonist isn't a problem. One game with a damsel in distress isn't a problem. One game with busty women and/or jiggle physics isn't a problem. It's that all three things are overwhelmingly common (along with any number of other disparaging trends). So by the same token, my one game isn't going to suddenly tear all that down, and it won't be able to overcome the large barrier to entry to women that is poor representation and underrepresentation.

But basically that's the first thing I'd do for the game that appeals to both. I'd make a game that, at the very least, doesn't marginalize or disparage women. That doesn't even necessarily necessitate a female protag or playable character, but it couldn't hurt. I would note that among the female friends I have that play a great deal of video games, most of them tend to play games where they can either create their character, the protagonist is female, or there are female options (such as in multiplayer games). Obviously this isn't a be all end all, as tons of dudes play Metroid, and tons of ladies play Zelda, but self-insertion is a big part of gaming for a lot of people, and being able to play as a character you can relate to on a gender level is a big deal for a lot of people. After that, idk. RPGs tend to appeal to a more even split gender ratio than FPSes (even if the underlying gameplay is shooting). So maybe I'd suggest that as well.

As far as making a AAA title that appeals more strongly to women goes, I have no ****in clue how to make that (and it doesn't help that basically no one has tried). Frankly, I'd probably need a female gamer to speak for me. But most of all, I don't really think that's my concern. I mostly want the "appeals to both" thing to happen, on an industry level. And again, that starts with MANY companies starting to make the shift, not just one. I will never be able to convince you that Satanic Visions making one single game that appeals to women will start a landslide. It has to become an industry-wide expectation for that to happen. But if Satanic Visions can start the ball rolling and begin to crack open this demographic, they'll be making a whole lot more money in the future.

But I really can't stress enough about how a big part of it is deconstructing the myth that video games are for boys. Pretty much every other artistic medium features much greater male representation than female, but at least it's not weird for ladies to be into those sorts of things. I mean think of sports especially. The big money TV sports are played entirely by men, and they're sort of a "guy thing," but certainly no one thinks it's weird for women to follow sports. And I really don't know how to go about reversing that stigma in video games, but I think it's pretty much the biggest problem with respect to this issue, especially since it makes this conversation so hard to have in the first place.

 

[CrackaaJack]

Milktea has already done a speech on this I know, but this is half discussion fodder and half me getting salty. I'll tell you right now I'm transgender, and there is a very large reason that I haven't come out, started expressing myself etc., especially in the gaming community. For example, I was on vgbootcamp stream not two minutes from writing this, and there was a girl in the crowd. What is everyone's first reaction? "GRILL!" I messaged something along the lines of "This is part of the reason that there aren't more girls that play this game, cus people pull **** like this". And what is the first response? A mod, A MOD, telling me just one word. "Stop". I get that it wasn't the best of places to get salty, but it is a response that only made my flames burn more. It's an issue and it needs to stop. It makes people uncomfortable and it restricts me from being who I want to be. So grow. The. ****. Up. Thank you have a nice day.

If you think that's the reason girls are driven away from video game communities you are sadly mistaken. Grill is not offensive or meant to be offensive in anyway, it's just a dank maymay. If you take offense to people pointing out the fact that there is actually a girl interested in smash that confuses me.

 

[Sucumbio]

If you think that's the reason girls are driven away from video game communities you are sadly mistaken. Grill is not offensive or meant to be offensive in anyway, it's just a dank maymay. If you take offense to people pointing out the fact that there is actually a girl interested in smash that confuses me.

If a black kid showed up to a predominantly white event and everyone started chanting "watermelon!" would you blame him for going or them for being racist? Apply this logic to a female showing up at a smash event, and thus we have the complaint in question.

 

[CrackaaJack]

If a black kid showed up to a predominantly white event and everyone started chanting "watermelon!" would you blame him for going or them for being racist? Apply this logic to a female showing up at a smash event, and thus we have the complaint in question.

How is this even remotely relevant? People aren't yelling grill in real life they are doing it behind their computers on twitch chat. Now if someone streamed a predominantly white event and watermelon was spammed in chat when a black person came on then it would be relevant. If you will be offended that easily by something then twitch is not the place to be for you. The internet is full of hateful words and it always will be because of the anonymity factor. You can either choose to laugh it off, ignore it, or become offended by it. It is not going to stop ever most likely.

 

[Sucumbio]

Well to be fair, I think the op misinterpreted the mod's interjection as being directed solely at them when to me it seems more likely they meant in general as in stop saying "grill" and stop complaining about it, this isn't the place for this blah blah. But "irl" vs on the Internet I don't necessarily believe should matter. Our site here would be in deep **** if we just ignored blatant racism or gay bashing or what have you, not because of any authority over us per se, but more because it hurts the community at large.

 

[CrackaaJack]

Well to be fair, I think the op misinterpreted the mod's interjection as being directed solely at them when to me it seems more likely they meant in general as in stop saying "grill" and stop complaining about it, this isn't the place for this blah blah. But "irl" vs on the Internet I don't necessarily believe should matter. Our site here would be in deep **** if we just ignored blatant racism or gay bashing or what have you, not because of any authority over us per se, but more because it hurts the community at large.

It does matter if its irl vs internet. Because hatred irl is something you cannot avoid. But on the internet, you can just turn your computer off, exit out of the page, or mute certain people. Should you have to? Nope. But the more you get offended by stupid things the harder the internet will become for you. That's the purpose of trolls is to piss you off and get a reaction out of you, all you can do is ignore it.

 

[Sucumbio]

Okay, but then we're ignoring the big picture issue which is to not condemn female gamers to an environment of sexism and slander. It's gotta start somewhere, the remedy that is, so why not at a place like vgbootcamp which is renowned for its competitors and quality streams? I mean I'm not saying females should expect to be treated respectfully everywhere they go. Obviously... I'm saying a proper smash outlet should strive to hold a higher standard than that, kinda like we here at Smashboards do.

 

[Teran]

Gaming is a boys' club, and ironically boys would often receive disparaging comments from girls growing up if they revealed a liking for videogames.

They probably still do.

Also expecting maturity from a bunch of 15 year olds on Twitch chat is a lost cause. In any case, girls having a strong passion for videogames is a lot rarer than guys, that's the reason why there aren't as many girls in gaming communities. I don't see that ever changing, but hopefully girls won't be discouraged from following the things they enjoy because of unwanted male attention.

 

[Plunder]

I think you guys might be delving way too deep into such a straightforward topic.

Women will forever be treated differently as long as they are such a rarity in this community. Wish it wasn't that way, but that's how it is. The same applies to any social structure where there is a minority or a rarity in a certain demographic. Doesn't matter if everyone agrees to be absolute gentlemen to those 2-3 girls....there's gonna be that new group of dudes always at every tournament that didn't get the memo. And online....c'mon seriously let's not waste our breath trying to change that. Add in the fact that both IRL and on chat you have such wild variances in age and hormones, yea good luck with that (remember when you were a dumb 13 yo).

The only way to change this in a meaningful lasting way is to have more women play Smash, other wise nothing will ever change. If the ratio was even close to even then there will be nothing special to gawk about, and those 2-3 mediocre looking chicks who used to get a ton of attention by default won't get it anymore (and they will probably miss it). No instead all the actual attractive hot chicks will be lauded over in the same manner that women (and gay dudes) in this community make "Top 10 hottest smashers" lists to subjectively judge male smashers based on looks.

 

[CrackaaJack]

Okay, but then we're ignoring the big picture issue which is to not condemn female gamers to an environment of sexism and slander. It's gotta start somewhere, the remedy that is, so why not at a place like vgbootcamp which is renowned for its competitors and quality streams? I mean I'm not saying females should expect to be treated respectfully everywhere they go. Obviously... I'm saying a proper smash outlet should strive to hold a higher standard than that, kinda like we here at Smashboards do.

I agree and I feel like many of the mods for VGbootcamp would also agree and timeout people for repeatedly saying these things.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Yeah, I also don't see why some individuals in a minority group should be subjected to any more (or less) attention than a majority group in the given demographic. So girls are more novel on account of their comparative rarity. What of it? They're as much walking talking walker-talkers as any of the others.

Also, I find the notion that such minority groups (be it sexual or racial minorities or whatever else) will inevitably and invariably receive greater (if not undue) attention to be a bit disheartening. It smacks of a defeatist, Boys Will Be Boys mindset.

If, for instance, trolls trawling chats typically engage in the singling out (if not outright misogynistic treatment) of girls in gaming scenes, would the salient question not become what drives such people to engage in such behaviour in the first place -- and how we might discourage such behaviours on the Internet and off for the betterment of the Smash scene and beyond?

Not that I have any convenient solutions on hand. But that seems one of the more interesting venues of discussion this general topic can provide

So there's my half-baked stance on all this, I suppose.

 

[Lichi]

Yeah, I also don't see why some individuals in a minority group should be subjected to any more (or less) attention than a majority group in the given demographic. So girls are more novel on account of their comparative rarity. What of it? They're as much walking talking walker-talkers as any of the others.

Girls stand out in gaming. That's why they get attention. It's how the world works, and you can get pissed off by that, or you can take it as it comes.

Everyone who stands out anywhere will get more attention than the majority. That's why it's called standing out. Ask short, tall or fat people how many comments have been made on them falling out of the norm. People with dyed hair in crazy colors or unconventional haircuts. The more you stand out the more attention you'll get.

I don't know how you can expect thatto be not the case for girls. Yes, it'd be nice if it didn't matter, but it is just a logical consequence of them being different from the standard gamer. And yes, they are.

This 'issue' and the discussion it attracts time and time again is in vain.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Girls stand out in gaming. That's why they get attention. It's how the world works, and you can get pissed off by that, or you can take it as it comes.

Everyone who stands out anywhere will get more attention than the majority. That's why it's called standing out. Ask short, tall or fat people how many comments have been made on them falling out of the norm. People with dyed hair in crazy colors or unconventional haircuts. The more you stand out the more attention you'll get.

I don't know how you can expect thatto be not the case for girls. Yes, it'd be nice if it didn't matter, but it is just a logical consequence of them being different from the standard gamer. And yes, they are.

This 'issue' and the discussion it attracts time and time again is in vain.

It is the case that a minority group in a demographic stands out relative to the rest. This is a statement of fact. I acknowledge and accept this -- as I believe I noted in my post up above (and if I didn't, well, I'm doing so now).

My concern is more the why of it all. Consider:

A) As a result of their comparative rarity, girls stand out in (competitive) gaming scenes;
B) ???
C) Therefore, we ought to treat them differently, whether this means piling on more attention than the majority groups (be it positive or negative), lending preferential treatment (be it positive or negative), or whatever else, solely on account of their sex or gender.

What is B)?

I can understand someone getting more attention if, say, they display great skill at a game, or if they are prone to generally scandalous behaviour, or so on. But as far as gaming is concerned, being female is as arbitrary as having blue eyes. It's not really relevant to gaming at all. Sex, gender, race, class, beliefs, eye colour, favourite music, left or right handedness -- these things only matter in gaming if you make them matter, and my question is why anyone would go out of their way to make such things matter.

Is it just "human nature", and there's thus nothing we can do? But we're self-aware, and are thereby able to channel and direct and reinforce our behaviours along different paths, if we so choose. Appealing to human nature seems needlessly defeatist. We can change if we work at it. Why couldn't we?

I'm not denying the existence of the "Novelty Impulse", or saying it's wrong or misguided to have such impulses (because it can't be right or wrong to have impulses). If I see a girl at a Smash tourney, I might well think to myself "Ah, a girl; don't see girls all too often around here". But impulses are relevant only as a function of how you choose to express them. So why would I then proceed to treat this girl different than the majority guys, simply on account of her sex or gender? On account of personality and actions and skill and knowledge, sure, but on account of chromosomal makeup or physical presentation?

I dunno. I mean, for a long time, I was tall compared to my classmates in school. As a result, I got a lot of comments highlighting that I was tall. I didn't get any ill treatment on account of my height (thankfully), but it's still all very puzzling, especially in retrospect. What compelled my classmates to bring my height to my attention? I already knew I was comparatively tall, and they were all able to see that I was comparatively tall. It was obvious for all to see. But why tell me about it, or bring it up, again and again?

The thing about majorities is that there are a lot of individuals in the majority. I was one person among, like, 40-ish people, and most of them had, at one point or another, commented on my height. Not to mention everyone outside my grade group. Suppose you extrapolate that to 100 people, or 500, or 1000. And you're still just one person, so the attention becomes increasingly inordinate the larger the majority becomes. Everyone knows you're tall***, but when it comes to gaming, who even cares?

In this example scenario, the increased attention would presumably be benign, but still, I ponder the psychological implications of this attention anyway.

TL;DR: people don't make sense, apparently, and at the very least, I intend to act in ways I deem sensible.

***I'm not actually all that tall now, at only six feet. But I had some early growth spurts, so for awhile I was bit taller than my peers until they all caught up with me. And then a new phase of attention started -- "I'm catching up to you", "You used to be so tall", etc.. But I digress.

 

[Lichi]

My concern is more the why of it all. Consider:

A) As a result of their comparative rarity, tall people (like me, about 6,6") stand out in any scene;
B) ???
C) Therefore, we ought to treat them differently, whether this means piling on more attention than the majority groups (be it positive or negative), lending preferential treatment (be it positive or negative), or whatever else, solely on account of their height.

What is B)?

I can understand someone getting more attention if, say, they display great skill at a game, or if they are prone to generally scandalous behaviour, or so on. But as far as gaming is concerned, being tall is as arbitrary as having blue eyes. It's not really relevant to gaming at all. Sex, gender, race, class, beliefs, eye colour, favourite music, left or right handedness or height -- these things only matter in gaming if you make them matter, and my question is why anyone would go out of their way to make such things matter.

Is it just "human nature", and there's thus nothing we can do? But we're self-aware, and are thereby able to channel and direct and reinforce our behaviours along different paths, if we so choose. Appealing to human nature seems needlessly defeatist. We can change if we work at it. Why couldn't we?

I'm not denying the existence of the "Novelty Impulse", or saying it's wrong or misguided to have such impulses (because it can't be right or wrong to have impulses). If I meet anyone anywhere for the first time, about 1/2 of them goes "Ah, you're a big one; do you even fit through the doors?". This is annoying as **** and I wish people would not express their obvious thoughts. And they all know that they are not the first one to notice/mention. So why would they then proceed to treat me different than the majority of human beings, simply on account of my height? On account of personality and actions and skill and knowledge, sure, but on account of chromosomal makeup or physical presentation?

[....]

The difference here is that nobody gives a flipping **** about people being brought to attention when it is not because of this gender bull****. I can get that getting comments like "Wow you're only into gaming for the attention" or the like sucks. But that's not what most people say.

Inb4: "Oh, being told you're tall is a positive thing." - Well, it I have not a single person that is way above average tall and is not annoyed by all the same questions everywhere they ****ing go. You have people complaining about you being in front and they not being able to see at the cinema, you steal other people's sun, they use you as a mean to get shadow. Yes, this sounds ridiculous, but it's the case. But we don't have a nagfest.
Same goes for fat people. There's just so many people who think making jokes of that is very funny and clever. Guys that look a lot like the stereotypical basement dwelling nerd also get a ton of negative attention. But when it's the girls, oh **** no, everybody has to immediately change. They are more important to satisfy, because we wan't more of them in our precious gaming scene.

 

[Sehnsucht]

The difference here is that nobody gives a flipping **** about people being brought to attention when it is not because of this gender bull****. I can get that getting comments like "Wow you're only into gaming for the attention" or the like sucks. But that's not what most people say.

Inb4: "Oh, being told you're tall is a positive thing." - Well, it I have not a single person that is way above average tall and is not annoyed by all the same questions everywhere they ****ing go. You have people complaining about you being in front and they not being able to see at the cinema, you steal other people's sun, they use you as a mean to get shadow. Yes, this sounds ridiculous, but it's the case. But we don't have a nagfest.
Same goes for fat people. There's just so many people who think making jokes of that is very funny and clever. Guys that look a lot like the stereotypical basement dwelling nerd also get a ton of negative attention. But when it's the girls, oh **** no, everybody has to immediately change. They are more important to satisfy, because we wan't more of them in our precious gaming scene.

I don't know so much about "gender bull****". Seems we both agree that non-actionable attributes are irrelevant to gaming itself, which is the most important part.

Though it would seem there is a specific concern for some about the relationship between girls and gaming (and gaming scenes) -- otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made, I expect. While no expert on the subject myself -- I don't have the privilege of living near bustling gaming scenes, Smash or otherwise, so I can't observe any of this in person -- it certainly seems worth discussing (much as everything is worth discussing).

Maybe there is something legitimate to the Girls & Gaming shebang. And if there isn't, this would be the place to dismantle and expose whatever gender hypocrisies there may be. So have at it.

Myself? I'm not educated enough to argue either case effectively***. I've already contributed as much as I meaningfully can, then, so I guess I'll sit back and continue letting more intelligent people have a crack at the subject. 8P

***My basic sense is that if there are so many people continually bringing up Girls&Gaming, there must be something amiss. Though again, I can't really diagnose what that might be (if there is anything at all there to begin with), at least for the time being.

 

[Lichi]

I don't know so much about "gender bull****". Seems we both agree that non-actionable attributes are irrelevant to gaming itself, which is the most important part.

Though it would seem there is a specific concern for some about the relationship between girls and gaming (and gaming scenes) -- otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made, I expect. While no expert on the subject myself -- I don't have the privilege of living near bustling gaming scenes, Smash or otherwise, so I can't observe any of this in person -- it certainly seems worth discussing (much as everything is worth discussing).

Maybe there is something legitimate to the Girls & Gaming shebang. And if there isn't, this would be the place to dismantle and expose whatever gender hypocrisies there may be. So have at it.

Myself? I'm not educated enough to argue either case effectively***. I've already contributed as much as I meaningfully can, then, so I guess I'll sit back and continue letting more intelligent people have a crack at the subject. 8P

***My basic sense is that if there are so many people continually bringing up Girls&Gaming, there must be something amiss. Though again, I can't really diagnose what that might be (if there is anything at all there to begin with), at least for the time being.

I say this is because people like white-knighting for girls, but for nobody else.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I say this is because people like white-knighting for girls, but for nobody else.

So I observe from the sidelines. White Knighting, MRAs, SJWs, Feminism (and Feminazism); lots of mud-slinging terminology being tossed about and bitter engagements being waged on the Internet battlefield. It's why I hesitate to even get involved in that whole affair, since it seems to be an awful quagmire from which there is no escape.

Though I would think there is a difference between White Knighting, and addressing legitimate concerns about how girls are treated and/or perceived in gaming culture. I suppose the challenge, then, is distinguishing the former from the latter. Hopefully, this thread will be representative of the latter kind of conduct.

And if it doesn't, be sure to call people out on it.

 

[Nixon Corral]

I say this is because people like white-knighting for girls, but for nobody else.

a) This isn't true.
b) White-knighting is a bull**** concept that tries to silence legitimate talks on gender equality. They had a word for it for white people that stuck up for black people back in the American civil rights battle days, but I can't repeat it here. Every term like that is unfair ad hominem that accomplishes nothing.

 

[Lichi]

a) This isn't true.
b) White-knighting is a bull**** concept that tries to silence legitimate talks on gender equality. They had a word for it for white people that stuck up for black people back in the American civil rights battle days, but I can't repeat it here. Every term like that is unfair ad hominem that accomplishes nothing.

As Sehnsucht stated, there is a difference between white-knighting and mentioning legitimate concerns, but both exist. The world is full of guys that will treat women in a better way for the hope of getting laid. That includes jumping to their rescue even when not needed.

If I had a dollar for every time I've read 'you just go ad hominem' in this subforum, I'd be a rich man now. But just because you say I do so does not mean this is the case. I am utterly unimpressed by your comparison of me calling out people to make a fuzz out of girls in gaming and people concealing racism and slavery.

 

[Plunder]

Yea white-knighting isn't some BS term, c'mon now.

Lonely desperate dudes that will do anything for just a bit of female attention, even if they don't even care or believe in what they are defending. It's not hard to see how that actually exists, I see it everywhere.

A more apt comparison to the slavery and racism hyperbole you bring up would be if some white people demanded reperations to all black people for what happened in the past. White-knighting in the same sense is about taking it over the edge to the point where you are actually being unreasonable or unfair to one side.

Sort of like how Feminazis go over board and basically are calling for a matriarchy instead of equality. And you can bet there are white knights lining up behind that stupidity; especially if the person at the epicenter is attractive, people do the dumbest crap for others they are attracted to.

 

[Nixon Corral]

As Sehnsucht stated, there is a difference between white-knighting and mentioning legitimate concerns, but both exist. The world is full of guys that will treat women in a better way for the hope of getting laid. That includes jumping to their rescue even when not needed.

If I had a dollar for every time I've read 'you just go ad hominem' in this subforum, I'd be a rich man now. But just because you say I do so does not mean this is the case. I am utterly unimpressed by your comparison of me calling out people to make a fuzz out of girls in gaming and people concealing racism and slavery.

Yes, and by that definition, white-knighting is the very issue this thread is trying to tackle: giving women unnecessary or unwanted attention! But overall I still think it's a pejorative that doesn't actually apply to many people and certainly doesn't apply to anyone in this thread, as far as I can tell. It should be avoided, as it doesn't do anything to further discussion.

And yes, obviously girls being bothered at Smash tourneys or on twitch is not as bad as America's history with racism. The point I was making is that if you're falling back to namecalling, you're no longer contributing to the discussion, and you're trying to shut other people up by typecasting them in a negative light. Saying "oh, only white knights care about this issue" or "you're just trying to impress [nearby woman] by caring about this" does nothing to tell us why a normal person shouldn't care about said issue.

 

[Lichi]

Yes, and by that definition, white-knighting is the very issue this thread is trying to tackle: giving women unnecessary or unwanted attention! But overall I still think it's a pejorative that doesn't actually apply to many people and certainly doesn't apply to anyone in this thread, as far as I can tell. It should be avoided, as it doesn't do anything to further discussion.

And yes, obviously girls being bothered at Smash tourneys or on twitch is not as bad as America's history with racism. The point I was making is that if you're falling back to namecalling, you're no longer contributing to the discussion, and you're trying to shut other people up by typecasting them in a negative light. Saying "oh, only white knights care about this issue" or "you're just trying to impress [nearby woman] by caring about this" does nothing to tell us why a normal person shouldn't care about said issue.

No, by that definition, this thread IS the issue. People are not white-knighting for girls at Smash tournaments, neither in twitch chat nor in person. This thread is the white-knighting. People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity.

But first, let's get clear what we're talking about. I am not referring to twitch calling out 'grill!' as soon as they see a female. The only good thing that has ever found it's origin in twitch chat is TotalBiscuit reading it out loud during WCS. It is neither representative of real human behaviour or intelligence, nor a reason to get upset about. It's a chat in which your message will be read if it is longer than 2 words and an emote as soon as there's a couple hundred users in it.

So then, there's the real life situation. Girl enters tournament, girl gets attention for being a girl. People mention how this is unusual, rare, and the like. These statements, to me, are of absolutely no harm. If you don't like being called a girl even though you clearly are, your cause cannot be helped.
I've also noticed people being very positive about girls getting into gaming, and without the creepy part about it. If you don't like people trying to be nice to you and genuinly appreciating you as a pionneer, that's tough luck. You are not the norm, therefore you will have to deal with being seen as abnormal. Be glad that it is meant in a nice way, even if it annoys you. Not only girls in gaming deal with this. To stay as close to this as possible, the same goes for girls in mechanical studies at universities all over the world. You chose to do something out of the norm, so deal with being out of the norm.
Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason.
There's people who laugh at Zero because of his looks and weight. People hated M2K when he was younger for being a nerdy weirdo. Some people don't like me because I don't sugar-coat my opinions. But there's no rallying cry for equality and attention-dropping. If you are a sentient human being, you'll have to learn to solve problems on your own or live with them. Stand up for yourself if you have to.

Should there be any real incidents of genuine hateful comments towards girls, we all condemn those actions. But I am not willing to fight a battle against people pointing out people for what they are.

 

[CrackaaJack]

No, by that definition, this thread IS the issue. People are not white-knighting for girls at Smash tournaments, neither in twitch chat nor in person. This thread is the white-knighting. People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity.

But first, let's get clear what we're talking about. I am not referring to twitch calling out 'grill!' as soon as they see a female. The only good thing that has ever found it's origin in twitch chat is TotalBiscuit reading it out loud during WCS. It is neither representative of real human behaviour or intelligence, nor a reason to get upset about. It's a chat in which your message will be read if it is longer than 2 words and an emote as soon as there's a couple hundred users in it.

So then, there's the real life situation. Girl enters tournament, girl gets attention for being a girl. People mention how this is unusual, rare, and the like. These statements, to me, are of absolutely no harm. If you don't like being called a girl even though you clearly are, your cause cannot be helped.
I've also noticed people being very positive about girls getting into gaming, and without the creepy part about it. If you don't like people trying to be nice to you and genuinly appreciating you as a pionneer, that's tough luck. You are not the norm, therefore you will have to deal with being seen as abnormal. Be glad that it is meant in a nice way, even if it annoys you. Not only girls in gaming deal with this. To stay as close to this as possible, the same goes for girls in mechanical studies at universities all over the world. You chose to do something out of the norm, so deal with being out of the norm.
Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason.
There's people who laugh at Zero because of his looks and weight. People hated M2K when he was younger for being a nerdy weirdo. Some people don't like me because I don't sugar-coat my opinions. But there's no rallying cry for equality and attention-dropping. If you are a sentient human being, you'll have to learn to solve problems on your own or live with them. Stand up for yourself if you have to.

Should there be any real incidents of genuine hateful comments towards girls, we all condemn those actions. But I am not willing to fight a battle against people pointing out people for what they are.

/thread

nothing more to see here folks

 

[Twewy]

No, by that definition, this thread IS the issue. People are not white-knighting for girls at Smash tournaments, neither in twitch chat nor in person. This thread is the white-knighting. People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity.

But first, let's get clear what we're talking about. I am not referring to twitch calling out 'grill!' as soon as they see a female. The only good thing that has ever found it's origin in twitch chat is TotalBiscuit reading it out loud during WCS. It is neither representative of real human behaviour or intelligence, nor a reason to get upset about. It's a chat in which your message will be read if it is longer than 2 words and an emote as soon as there's a couple hundred users in it.

So then, there's the real life situation. Girl enters tournament, girl gets attention for being a girl. People mention how this is unusual, rare, and the like. These statements, to me, are of absolutely no harm. If you don't like being called a girl even though you clearly are, your cause cannot be helped.
I've also noticed people being very positive about girls getting into gaming, and without the creepy part about it. If you don't like people trying to be nice to you and genuinly appreciating you as a pionneer, that's tough luck. You are not the norm, therefore you will have to deal with being seen as abnormal. Be glad that it is meant in a nice way, even if it annoys you. Not only girls in gaming deal with this. To stay as close to this as possible, the same goes for girls in mechanical studies at universities all over the world. You chose to do something out of the norm, so deal with being out of the norm.
Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason.
There's people who laugh at Zero because of his looks and weight. People hated M2K when he was younger for being a nerdy weirdo. Some people don't like me because I don't sugar-coat my opinions. But there's no rallying cry for equality and attention-dropping. If you are a sentient human being, you'll have to learn to solve problems on your own or live with them. Stand up for yourself if you have to.

Should there be any real incidents of genuine hateful comments towards girls, we all condemn those actions. But I am not willing to fight a battle against people pointing out people for what they are.

Best post so far, can't say I disagree with this.

Plus, best episode of that South Park season referenced.

 

[Nixon Corral]

No, by that definition, this thread IS the issue. People are not white-knighting for girls at Smash tournaments, neither in twitch chat nor in person. This thread is the white-knighting. People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity.

But first, let's get clear what we're talking about. I am not referring to twitch calling out 'grill!' as soon as they see a female. The only good thing that has ever found it's origin in twitch chat is TotalBiscuit reading it out loud during WCS. It is neither representative of real human behaviour or intelligence, nor a reason to get upset about. It's a chat in which your message will be read if it is longer than 2 words and an emote as soon as there's a couple hundred users in it.

So then, there's the real life situation. Girl enters tournament, girl gets attention for being a girl. People mention how this is unusual, rare, and the like. These statements, to me, are of absolutely no harm. If you don't like being called a girl even though you clearly are, your cause cannot be helped.
I've also noticed people being very positive about girls getting into gaming, and without the creepy part about it. If you don't like people trying to be nice to you and genuinly appreciating you as a pionneer, that's tough luck. You are not the norm, therefore you will have to deal with being seen as abnormal. Be glad that it is meant in a nice way, even if it annoys you. Not only girls in gaming deal with this. To stay as close to this as possible, the same goes for girls in mechanical studies at universities all over the world. You chose to do something out of the norm, so deal with being out of the norm.
Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason.
There's people who laugh at Zero because of his looks and weight. People hated M2K when he was younger for being a nerdy weirdo. Some people don't like me because I don't sugar-coat my opinions. But there's no rallying cry for equality and attention-dropping. If you are a sentient human being, you'll have to learn to solve problems on your own or live with them. Stand up for yourself if you have to.

Should there be any real incidents of genuine hateful comments towards girls, we all condemn those actions. But I am not willing to fight a battle against people pointing out people for what they are.

You changed your definition. You can't say that white-knighting is sticking up for girls in an attempt to get laid and then turn around and say it's that "People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity."

"Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason."

This is the part that I think Sehnsucht talks about that I agree the most with: why do we just have to accept ****ty behavior?
We don't accept any of the jokes at M2K or Zero's expense, so why is it also okay for people to similarly mistreat women? I just think it's something we don't have to settle for. I don't know why it's so crazy to just be decent to people, or to expect that of others.

But even assuming that we do perfectly condemn those sorts of actions (which we don't), that doesn't make tokenizing people any better. To give a personal example, I don't drink. I nevertheless go to parties at my university at least semi-frequently. I always regret it, though, because half of the people there can't find anything better to talk about than the fact that I'm not drinking. It's ****ing exhausting. I feel like I'm wearing a "teetotaler" sign around my neck the whole time. I obviously can't be sure, but I imagine this is often what it can feel like to be a woman in the gaming sphere. You have to deal with droves of people whose superficial interactions with you make you feel like you don't belong or like people see "girl" before they see "person." Why do people always try to point out the uncommon ground before the common?

And again, Twewy said it a number of posts ago, but all I'm really saying in all these posts is what he said, which is to just treat women the same as you treat men in the gaming context. It's really not hard. I feel like we've been going back and forth about it, and all it comes down to is that some of you think it's too small of a problem to care about, and some of us don't. And I just think this thread wouldn't exist if it were.

Edit: You also mentioned a couple posts ago something that I forgot to touch on. And that is that women are the only group anyone sticks up for. First of all, I would say that's what's happening in this thread because that's what the OP is about. Second of all, it's just not true. It's the most prominent in gaming because I think women catch the most flack, but there's also still a good deal of racism to deal with. Particularly on the internet. It's less of a problem in person, though, because no one's going to be dumb enough to make racist jokes IRL in this day and age. Meanwhile, it's still largely acceptable to creep on women at your local Smash scene. I think that's why you see more folks talking about it.

And again, I would say complaining that people "only white-knight for girls" still doesn't do anything to say why women's issues in gaming don't matter. But I think you've otherwise addressed that.

 

[Lichi]

Careful! This answer contains traces of polemics. This servers as a mean of entertainment and 'fire' in discussions, that we lack in the DH. This might be 'unprofessional', but it does not weaken my points. Inb4 ad hominem ad stupidum ad contemptionem...

You changed your definition. You can't say that white-knighting is sticking up for girls in an attempt to get laid and then turn around and say it's that "People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity."

No I did not. White-knighting is a lot of things in general, but it can easily be substituted the following way and still have the same meaning and logic:

"People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, (neglecting the fact that attention is nothing you can cleanse from humanity) in an attempt to get laid."

People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing you can cleanse from humanity = sticking up for girls only to get laid = white-knighting​

"Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason."

This is the part that I think Sehnsucht talks about that I agree the most with: why do we just have to accept ****ty behavior?
We don't accept any of the jokes at M2K or Zero's expense, so why is it also okay for people to similarly mistreat women? I just think it's something we don't have to settle for. I don't know why it's so crazy to just be decent to people, or to expect that of others.

We don't? I think the case with M2K was more like that he became so god damn good at the game, that he gathered a following regardless of him being the odd one. He wanted to proof to everyone that he is the best and impressed people. That's how he got out of it. There was no global movement that held virtual signs up. "Free M2K". "People with aspergers are equal!" "Do not give more attention than to anyone else."
Zero seems to be just not giving a **** about his haters. It's the best thing to do. As I've said, there will always be someone who does not like your nose, especially in the age of the internet.
Girls that have to deal with unwanted negative feedback on their gender will also have to find a solution that works for them. They can go the Zero route and not give a ****, convince people with real skill that they are indeed not only there for attention, or do it like MilkTea does to some extent, just talk to people about how this feels and make them comprehend.
Neither of those actions requires an army of male equalitists jumping to their aid, yet all of them get the result. Acceptance.
The little rest that will always hate on somebody will never be gotten rid of. DEAL. WITH. IT.​

But even assuming that we do perfectly condemn those sorts of actions (which we don't), that doesn't make tokenizing people any better. To give a personal example, I don't drink. I nevertheless go to parties at my university at least semi-frequently. I always regret it, though, because half of the people there can't find anything better to talk about than the fact that I'm not drinking. It's ****ing exhausting. I feel like I'm wearing a "teetotaler" sign around my neck the whole time. I obviously can't be sure, but I imagine this is often what it can feel like to be a woman in the gaming sphere. You have to deal with droves of people whose superficial interactions with you make you feel like you don't belong or like people see "girl" before they see "person." Why do people always try to point out the uncommon ground before the common?

I would like to point you in the direction of my previous post. You actively chose to go somewhere you know you'll gonna stick out - accept that you will stick out. For God's sake, that cannot be so hard. And here's a bummer - I did not drink alcohol until I reached the age of 20, but I visited parties beforehand. I know how this feels. And it's actually not too bad. You can actually still have a great time and socialize normally with all the people. But the more drunk they get, the more you'll stick out to them. And drunk people always speak out of their heart or are completely out of their mind, so you just gotta expect to be treated accordingly.
If you are that passive-aggressive type of non-drinker though, well maybe you should not visit parties then. Nobody likes people that shove their superior way of life into their faces. Some non-drinkers do not even realize they do this, nevertheless, it's annoying.
So back to the girls again. With all my love to humor, I do not think that the average Smasher behaves like a drunk person. Maybe things are so much different overseas, but in here gamers in general are rather humble, shy, and maybe super awkward around people who do not share the same interests. But they just aren't the material to harass or hit on girls, or make them feel uncomfortable (given the fact the girls are nerdy as well. Should they be not, well, don't hang around nerds). If people looking at you creeps you out, you have a serious problem with your self confidence. It's not like Smashers look at girls like the KKK onto a man of color in their midst - with 100% of their eyes directly pointed at them, filled with disgust and hatred. Yeah, more or less heads will turn into your direction, some might even stare. But 99% will be very modest*. The world will not end. As I've said, this kind of attention is the one that a lot of people get in various situations.​

And again, Twewy said it a number of posts ago, but all I'm really saying in all these posts is what he said, which is to just treat women the same as you treat men in the gaming context. It's really not hard. I feel like we've been going back and forth about it, and all it comes down to is that some of you think it's too small of a problem to care about, and some of us don't. And I just think this thread wouldn't exist if it were.

In the gaming context, are girls really not treated as equals? Do people forfeit stocks? Play less serious? Taunt all game? All because they're matched up against a girl?**
Everything that is not IN the game, that is directly linked to your body, can't be treated as if you were a male. Because you aren't. What is this absolute gender equality you always talk about anyway? Do you want to create an army of obidient men that will try not to look at their female opponents because that might upset them, even though it is in humanity's nature to look at odd things***? Will we stop using pronouns that are gender-sensitive? ​

Edit: You also mentioned a couple posts ago something that I forgot to touch on. And that is that women are the only group anyone sticks up for. First of all, I would say that's what's happening in this thread because that's what the OP is about. Second of all, it's just not true. It's the most prominent in gaming because I think women catch the most flack, but there's also still a good deal of racism to deal with. Particularly on the internet. It's less of a problem in person, though, because no one's going to be dumb enough to make racist jokes IRL in this day and age. Meanwhile, it's still largely acceptable to creep on women at your local Smash scene. I think that's why you see more folks talking about it.

I used a rethorical device called 'generalization'. I said 'only' to stress to margin by which this is the predominant case. Not only in gaming.​

And again, I would say complaining that people "only white-knight for girls" still doesn't do anything to say why women's issues in gaming don't matter. But I think you've otherwise addressed that.

If you do not want to diminish one of my statements because you realized I did adress your point, then don't do it.

* link me to a vid of a large tournament in which a girl enters and the room goes silent as everybody stares at her
** link me to a vid of this incident happening and tell me how this is not the normal sandbagging that is often done by superior players
*** yes, I called girls in gaming odd. Odd means "not the regular sight". No negative intentions. "things" is just more comfortable to say than thinking of some scientific phrasing
​

I still love you, Nixon.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Okay...

I am too exhausted by this topic to do this bullet by bullet anymore, but I have a few key points that I'll address.

First of all, it seems that we've dissolved our key disagreement here.

You think that tokenizing behavior is just natural, not that big of a deal, and that recipients of such behavior should just deal with it.

I don't.

HOORAY

I don't think either of us is going to move past this fundamental disagreement.

However.

I do find it funny that you talk about these "armies of male equalists jumping to their aid" when in fact it's your posts that are getting all the likes. Where's my army?

Also...

I'm not sure I've been entirely clear on what I mean by all this. The particular attention I'm talking about is that of human attraction. Often, these lonely gamers we've talked about will approach women in their community simply because of that "gamer girlfriend" fantasy someone mentioned posts and posts ago. That's the part that annoys me, even vicariously. It's so shallow. I know people can't just turn the blinders on and see everyone as genderless, but it's frustrating to see the bias there. What's more, such people will often drop their engagement with girls if they realize she's uninterested, which means the dude in question was never interested in the underlying person to begin with. And this is a problem outside the Smash community as well, but the gender skew just makes it worse in this case. It just seems like it would be exhausting to be a girl in the gaming sphere, constantly wondering if your likely majority-male friend group is just holding out to see if they have a chance with you, or having to wonder if each new dude approaching you is interested in talking to you objectively or with some sort of ulterior motive.

But maybe fighting a battle against people treating people they're attracted to the same as anyone else is a bit fruitless. Shrug. Perhaps this is simply a symptom of interaction with a large group of people that could potentially be superficially attracted to you.

But I would still argue that it's similar to the teetotaler-at-a-party scenario. Yes, I can still have a lot of fun, but it's always alienating when someone approaches me with the same old tired "BOY I BET YOU'RE GETTING TRASHED TONIGHT, HUH, NIXON" joke that I hear a billion times before the night's over. I'm like, gee, I'm glad that's the only way you can think of to interact with me. And yes, I can get past that and still have a good time with the people I came to see in the first place, but it still has the effect of irritating me. And consequently, I'd like if the human attitude on this sort of thing could shift. That's all I'm saying.

Sort of the mystifying thing to me about all of this is that I assume you and those that agree with you don't exhibit this kind of behavior. You're not saying "I do this and I think it's fine." You're saying "some people do this, and it sucks, but I am inexplicably really annoyed by people complaining about it."

So I ask, why are you and Iceweasel and whoever else so prickly about me suggesting that maybe others could try not to do these sorts of things? Or am I misinterpreting you?

 

[Lichi]

To just adress that last bit:
It's just that I can't stand people rallying for a cause that does not exist. It is against men's nature to not find at least a little bit of interest in the other sex (given straight) and also get their attention drawn to the things that stand out. And I hate people trying to tell me that this is fundamentally wrong and needs to be fought. Furthermore, when broken down to it's real core, the "problem" appears to be as unimportant as all the other little things in life that annoy somebody.

I do not need to be a creep or a white knight to have this opinion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, by that definition, this thread IS the issue. People are not white-knighting for girls at Smash tournaments, neither in twitch chat nor in person. This thread is the white-knighting. People are eager to save the girls from all this attention, neglecting the fact that attention is nothing that you can cleanse from humanity.

But first, let's get clear what we're talking about. I am not referring to twitch calling out 'grill!' as soon as they see a female. The only good thing that has ever found it's origin in twitch chat is TotalBiscuit reading it out loud during WCS. It is neither representative of real human behaviour or intelligence, nor a reason to get upset about. It's a chat in which your message will be read if it is longer than 2 words and an emote as soon as there's a couple hundred users in it.

So then, there's the real life situation. Girl enters tournament, girl gets attention for being a girl. People mention how this is unusual, rare, and the like. These statements, to me, are of absolutely no harm. If you don't like being called a girl even though you clearly are, your cause cannot be helped.
I've also noticed people being very positive about girls getting into gaming, and without the creepy part about it. If you don't like people trying to be nice to you and genuinly appreciating you as a pionneer, that's tough luck. You are not the norm, therefore you will have to deal with being seen as abnormal. Be glad that it is meant in a nice way, even if it annoys you. Not only girls in gaming deal with this. To stay as close to this as possible, the same goes for girls in mechanical studies at universities all over the world. You chose to do something out of the norm, so deal with being out of the norm.
Last are the critical comments. Accusations of fishing for attention and the like. Well guess what, that's called being disliked by people. Being disliked often comes from lack of knowledge and prejudices. Clear that up or eat it up, there will always be someone around who hates you for some bull**** reason.
There's people who laugh at Zero because of his looks and weight. People hated M2K when he was younger for being a nerdy weirdo. Some people don't like me because I don't sugar-coat my opinions. But there's no rallying cry for equality and attention-dropping. If you are a sentient human being, you'll have to learn to solve problems on your own or live with them. Stand up for yourself if you have to.

Should there be any real incidents of genuine hateful comments towards girls, we all condemn those actions. But I am not willing to fight a battle against people pointing out people for what they are.

No.

Discussion in the academic sense of how the community interacts with women is not the same as giving women deferential treatment.

How can you in the same breadth acknowledge white knighting as interactions which are blatantly sexist yet disavow academic discussion of these issues of sexism?

It sounds like rather then applying it strictly, you are attempting to use "white knighting" as a gotcha in order to dismiss the arguments of your intellectual opponents without addressing the validity of their points.

Lastly, yes our community has other biases, but those should be addressed in the same way.

 

[Lichi]

No.

Discussion in the academic sense of how the community interacts with women is not the same as giving women deferential treatment.

How can you in the same breadth acknowledge white knighting as interactions which are blatantly sexist yet disavow academic discussion of these issues of sexism?

It sounds like rather then applying it strictly, you are attempting to use "white knighting" as a gotcha in order to dismiss the arguments of your intellectual opponents without addressing the validity of their points.

Lastly, yes our community has other biases, but those should be addressed in the same way.

Yes.

Discussion in the academic sense of how the community interacts with women and offering the solution of handling girls with extra soft gloves is giving them special treatment and therefore is white-knighting.

How can you without giving a second thought twist the here disputed act of white-knighting ( -> the act of preventing women from harm caused by sexism where there is no sexism) into sexist behaviour itself (that would then be sexism which is beneficial to women) so that you can accuse me of disavowing academic discussion about sexism?

It sounds like rather than making a point on my validity of argumentation, you try to tell me in a very kind way that I am not an intellectual, disregarding the fact that I directly adressed Nixon's (as a representative of my opposition) points in their entirety and did not wiggle my way around their validity but rather debunked them.

Lastly, if you want to make such bold claims, you could at least try to be less vague and distracting.

 

[adumbrodeus]

"Sexism exists in the community, but talking about sexism and it's effects is an example of sexism".

That's nothing less then a ridiculous rhetorical trick to disqualify your intellectual opponent, whether you're talking about an individual community's handling or sexism in the general sense. When it's established sexism is in fact a thing that affects this community, discussing it cannot unilaterally be an example of this treatment. You could argue that an opponent's individual views are benevolent sexism, but it hinges on illustrating that their criticism of the treatment of women is unjustified.

You can't admit sexism exists in the smash community (which you admitted in terms of the impulse to treat women with kid gloves and otherwise give special treatment) yet simultaneously deny the validity of the topic, it's intellectual dishonest and deserves nothing less then ridicule.

 

[Lichi]

"Sexism exists in the community, but talking about sexism and it's effects is an example of sexism".

That's nothing less then a ridiculous rhetorical trick to disqualify your intellectual opponent, whether you're talking about an individual community's handling or sexism in the general sense. When it's established sexism is in fact a thing that affects this community, discussing it cannot unilaterally be an example of this treatment. You could argue that an opponent's individual views are benevolent sexism, but it hinges on illustrating that their criticism of the treatment of women is unjustified.

You can't admit sexism exists in the smash community (which you admitted in terms of the impulse to treat women with kid gloves and otherwise give special treatment) yet simultaneously deny the validity of the topic, it's intellectual dishonest and deserves nothing less then ridicule.

You must be very glad to not be affected by my so called 'rethorical tricks' as they only target intellectual opponents, to which you clearly do not belong. I'll wrap this in very simple words for you.

1. I talk about white-knighting that people do, and generalize their motive as "wanting to get laid". I never said that white-knighting is an act of sexism in my posts (do the funny little control+f search thingy and look for 'sexism') until I responded to you.

2. You accuse me of a) admitting that white-knighting is sexist behaviour (which is not true, see 1.) and b) disavowing discussion about the topic of sexism out of the false conclusion of a).

3. I tell you about your fallacy and how it does clearly not reflect my thoughts even a single bit.

4. You come up with a made up quote that shall demonstrate my 'trick' even though there is no trick. I never said that white-knighting is an act of sexism ( sexism is NOT to the benefit of women, but white-knighting is ). I never said that 'academic discussion' about sexism is sexism. That is another product of your fantasy that you spun to make me look bad. I never even said that talking about white-knighting is white-knighting. The only thing that has a general touch of that is the "This topic [...that tries to force people to pay less attention to female gamers...] is an act of white-knighting.

Get your facts straight and don't bother me with your made-up ****. You do not impress me in the slightest with your accusations of me disregarding intellectual behaviour even though you lack it.

 

[Nixon Corral]

It sounds like rather than making a point on my validity of argumentation, you try to tell me in a very kind way that I am not an intellectual, disregarding the fact that I directly adressed Nixon's (as a representative of my opposition) points in their entirety and did not wiggle my way around their validity but rather debunked them.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say you debunked them, but I'll grant that you addressed them directly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You must be very glad to not be affected by my so called 'rethorical tricks' as they only target intellectual opponents, to which you clearly do not belong. I'll wrap this in very simple words for you.

Amusing but a rather pathetic dig. 2/10, read better.

1. I talk about white-knighting that people do, and generalize their motive as "wanting to get laid". I never said that white-knighting is an act of sexism in my posts (do the funny little control+f search thingy and look for 'sexism') until I responded to you.

2. You accuse me of a) admitting that white-knighting is sexist behaviour (which is not true, see 1.) and b) disavowing discussion about the topic of sexism out of the false conclusion of a).

Ah but...

Discussion in the academic sense of how the community interacts with women and offering the solution of handling girls with extra soft gloves is giving them special treatment and therefore is white-knighting.

Do you deny that treating people differently on the basis of their sex is sexism? Whether positive or negative.


Edit: Attatched a link to illustrate which definition I was using of "read".