Can anyone help me interpret this frame data scaling knockback?

[Praxis]

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

This is a dump of Smash 4's frame data nicely parsed. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's any way to know which special move is which, but everything else is there.

But I'm a little confused about one thing: scaling knockback.
I don't understand the "Max Hitbox KBG * Damage:" field.

I was under the impression that "KGB" is knockback growth or scaling knockback. For example, Melee Fox's usmash is 112 KGB.

Captain Falcon's fsmash is "Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 480.0", but his dash attack is "Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 900.0". Does his dash attack really have almost 2x the knockback growth of his fsmash?!

And these numbers seem really odd compared to the Melee numbers. (900 KGB dash attack vs 112 Fox usmash.) Is the formula for knockback very different in Smash 4 or something?

I thought maybe I'm supposed to divide the "Max Hitbox KBG * Damage" by Damage to get the KGB, but that just makes dash attack's KGB even higher compared to fsmash.


If anyone can help me interpret this, it'd be tremendously appreciated. Thank you very much!

 

[Lavani]

What you're looking at is a really early interpretation of the data dump. BKB and KBG were initially mislabeled, so that field is actually telling you "Max Hitbox BKB * Damage" instead which is probably causing the confusion.

So the stats should actually read:

Captain Falcon's fsmash angled
Damage: 20
BKB: 24
KBG: 94
Damage * KBG: 1880

Captain Falcon's dash attack
Damage: 10
BKB: 90
KBG: 50
Damage * KBG: 500

 

[Praxis]

What you're looking at is a really early interpretation of the data dump. BKB and KBG were initially mislabeled, so that field is actually telling you "Max Hitbox BKB * Damage" instead which is probably causing the confusion.

So the stats should actually read:

Captain Falcon's fsmash angled
Damage: 20
BKB: 24
KBG: 94
Damage * KBG: 1880

Captain Falcon's dash attack
Damage: 10
BKB: 90
KBG: 50
Damage * KBG: 500

Okay, just to verify I'm understanding this right:

On this document, the "Max Hitbox BKB" is actually the KBG, and to get the BKB I should divide the "Damage * KBG" by the "Max Hitbox Damage".

Correct?


(Also, is there an updated version of this text doc? I've seen MasterCore2 but the data's a lot less readable there.)

Thank you tremendously for your help, I've already spent almost eight hours burying myself in this file, with good results.

 

[san.]

I would take the knockback stuff with a grain of salt, since I don't think it too accurately represents kill power. I think looking at MasterCore2 is your best bet for understanding moves, even if all of it doesn't make as much sense at first glance.

There are also frame speed modifiers for some moves. For example, Palutena's jab1 actually comes out on frame 7 and Ike's fair comes out on frame 11.

 

[Lavani]

Okay, just to verify I'm understanding this right:

On this document, the "Max Hitbox BKB" is actually the KBG, and to get the BKB I should divide the "Damage * KBG" by the "Max Hitbox Damage".

Correct?


(Also, is there an updated version of this text doc? I've seen MasterCore2 but the data's a lot less readable there.)

Thank you tremendously for your help, I've already spent almost eight hours burying myself in this file, with good results.

Correct.

There isn't an updated version that I'm aware of, I've just been looking at MasterCore2 personally but I can understand why one would prefer a pastebin like this. MasterCore2 does cover more data though, as san mentioned.

Glad I could be of assistance!

 

[RPK]

I feel a little lost looking at this, but what does BKB and KBG mean? Im assuming its Based Knock Back and Knock Back Generated? But what do the numbers next to them mean? I'm looking at Fox's U-smash and dont know what the numbers mean with the exception of the first 2 lines

1. U-smash release
2. Hits on frame: 8.0
3. Hitboxes end: 20.0
4. Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
5. Max Hitbox BKB: 98
6. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 360.0
7. Max Hitbox Angle: 80

EDIT: Also if I may ask, what is MasterCore2?? I see it mentioned a few times in thread, but I can't find anything on it. Would someone mind linking me? It seems like this has some incredibly useful data that I would love to get my hands on. Also, if I may ask, where did you guys get this information??

 

[Praxis]

I would take the knockback stuff with a grain of salt, since I don't think it too accurately represents kill power. I think looking at MasterCore2 is your best bet for understanding moves, even if all of it doesn't make as much sense at first glance.

There are also frame speed modifiers for some moves. For example, Palutena's jab1 actually comes out on frame 7 and Ike's fair comes out on frame 11.

MasterCore2 doesn't work very well for what I'm trying to do, unfortunately- I need the data in a readable manner.

I feel a little lost looking at this, but what does BKB and KBG mean? Im assuming its Based Knock Back and Knock Back Generated? But what do the numbers next to them mean? I'm looking at Fox's U-smash and dont know what the numbers mean with the exception of the first 2 lines

1. U-smash release
2. Hits on frame: 8.0
3. Hitboxes end: 20.0
4. Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
5. Max Hitbox BKB: 98
6. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 360.0
7. Max Hitbox Angle: 80

EDIT: Also if I may ask, what is MasterCore2?? I see it mentioned a few times in thread, but I can't find anything on it. Would someone mind linking me? It seems like this has some incredibly useful data that I would love to get my hands on. Also, if I may ask, where did you guys get this information??

BKB is Base Knockback, KBG is Knockback Growth (or scaling knockback).

Base Knockback is the amount of knockback the move does no matter what, knockback growth is multiplied by your character's damage.

A move with high base knockback is a poor combo move at low percent, a move with high knockback growth becomes a good kill move at high percent, etc.

 

[RPK]

So I'm looking at Fox's stuff since he's who I main...I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but his U-smash, his stronger kill move, has a Max Hitbox KBG of 360. Though when I look at his Dash Attack it says 720. So does that mean at higher percents his Dash Attack is a stronger kill move?? Wait...Ughh these numbers are a bit confusing @3@ Especially since the stuff in the document is mislabeled

 

[Dantarion]

MasterCore2 contains so many more labeled commands that I don't think those original dumps are really worth it.

 

[Praxis]

Okay these numbers make way more sense switching BKB and KBG, except one thing: Yoshi's bair has 183 KGB?! Can that possibly be accurate? That'd make it one of the most powerful kill moves in the game...

 

[Lavani]

Okay these numbers make way more sense switching BKB and KBG, except one thing: Yoshi's bair has 183 KGB?! Can that possibly be accurate? That'd make it one of the most powerful kill moves in the game...

The damage dealt by the attack factors into the final knockback as well, I assume the pastebin had KBG (well, erroneously BKB) and damage multiplied to more accurately display knockback strength. The final hit of Yoshi's bair only deals 5 damage, so it requires more KBG to KO properly.

EDIT: Better example.

Yoshi's bair (30BKB/184KBG/5% on last hit) KOs Sheik at 125% from the starting position of FD. 184 * 5 = 920
Ganondorf's reversed Warlock Punch (30BKB/100KBG/37%) KOs Sheik at 8%. 100 * 37 = 3700

 

[Praxis]

The damage dealt by the attack factors into the final knockback as well, I assume the pastebin had KBG (well, erroneously BKB) and damage multiplied to more accurately display knockback strength. The final hit of Yoshi's bair only deals 5 damage, so it requires more KBG to KO properly than something like Luigi's sweetspot upB (40 BKB, 77 KBG, 25 damage).

For what it's worth, Yoshi's bair KOs Sheik at 125% from the starting point of FD and 145% from the middle of FD.

Interesting. Was this true in Melee/Brawl as well? Just interpreting all the frame data I'm going through.

 

[Lavani]

Interesting. Was this true in Melee/Brawl as well? Just interpreting all the frame data I'm going through.

True all the way back to 64.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ Lavani is really good at this sort of stuff from what I've seen.

Why are you so good at this? That's not allowed.

 

[Lavani]

@ Lavani is really good at this sort of stuff from what I've seen.

Why are you so good at this? That's not allowed.

I'm coming for your job.

Spoiler

I just like numbers.

 

[RPK]

Alright...So how would I do the calculations if I wanted to look at...Diddy Kong's Uair from that document. I apologize as I am quite terrible with numbers.

1. Uair
2. Hits on frame: 3.0
3. Hitboxes end: 8.0
4. Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
5. Max Hitbox BKB: 99
6. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 520.0
7. Max Hitbox Angle: 76

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm coming for your job.

Spoiler

I just like numbers.

It's ok, I will teach you and you will be my disciple.

 

[Meru.]

I would take the knockback stuff with a grain of salt, since I don't think it too accurately represents kill power. I think looking at MasterCore2 is your best bet for understanding moves, even if all of it doesn't make as much sense at first glance.

There are also frame speed modifiers for some moves. For example, Palutena's jab1 actually comes out on frame 7 and Ike's fair comes out on frame 11.

What are frame speed modifiers? Do you happen to know if other moves have them too? (like Peach's Nair ;_

 

[san.]

What are frame speed modifiers? Do you happen to know if other moves have them too? (like Peach's Nair ;_

She doesn't have it anywhere important. ctrl+F FrameSpeedMultiplier. If it said FrameSpeedMultiplier (0.5) for instance, time is cut in half, so frames count twice as fast until it goes back to 1.

 

[Thinkaman]

In the (currently unforeseeable) I'll reparse the updated document to account for more stuff, including correct kb values and these newfangled framespeed multipliers.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Just look at mastercore. I'm fairly certain BKB (Base Knockback) and KBG (Knockback Growth [Scaling Factor]) are labelled correctly in that.

By the way @ Thinkaman , why exactly did you give Max KBG * Damage? Why not just give KBG by itself? Is it to give an idea of the "true" value that would occur in standard play or what