Byleth Competitive Thread (Post-Release Edition)

[Idon]

Thought that we should have a general hub to discuss aspects of Byleth's character in a completely competitive sense.

I'll update this with pro players to look out for, VODs to watch, patches, etc, as time goes on, however if you'd like to contribute or if you think I've missed anything, feel free to post stuff in the comments and I'll include them!

All Frame Data With Hitboxes

Spoiler: General Attributes

Weight — 97 (34th/Average)
Walk Speed — 0.8 (76th/Very Bad)
Run Speed — 1.43 (75th/Very Bad)
Air Speed — 0.89 (75th/Very Bad)
Fall Speed —1.6 (39th/Average)

Spoiler: Just Frame Data

NORMALS

Spoiler

• Jab: Chop -> Roundhouse Kick -> Whip Flurry -> Sword Slash
• Jab (held): Chop -> Roundhouse Kick -> Donkey Kick
  • Jab 1 Startup: 4
  • Jab 2 Startup: 4
  • Jab 3 Startup: 5
  • Jab loop Startup: 11
  • Jab finisher Startup: 7
• Dash Attack: Inward Slash
  • Startup: 9
• Down Tilt: Whip Lash
  • Startup: 13
• Forward Tilt: Outward Slice
  • Startup: 8
• Upwards Tilt: Arcing Cut
  • Startup: 9

SMASHES

Spoiler

• Down Smash: Axe Spin
  • Startup: 19 + 10 (29) (second hit)
• Forward Smash: Spear Stab
  • Startup: 23
• Up Smash: Whip Hurricane
  • Startup: 13

SPECIALS

Spoiler

• Neutral Special: Failnaught
  • Startup: 45 + 69 (114) (max charge)
  • Shield cancel-able: 21-44
  • Turn around-able: 28-44
• Down Special: Aymr
  • Startup: 64
• Side Special: Areadbhar
  • Startup: 21 (ground), 20 (air)
• Up Special: Sword of the Creator
  • Startup: 11

AERIALS

Spoiler

• Neutral Air: Bow Spin
  • Startup: 6
• Down Air: Axe Chop
  • Startup: 22
• Forward Air: Lance Slap Forwards
  • Startup: 12
• Up Air: Whip Tornado
  • Startup: 10
• Back Air: Lance Slap Backwards
  • Startup: 13

THROWS

Spoiler

• Grab: Off-hand Grapple
  • 6 (stationary), 10 (dashing)
• Down Throw: Descending whip slap
• Forward Throw: Rising whip slap
• Up Throw: Sword Bunt
• Back Throw: Spin Throw

Spoiler: Just Hitboxes

NORMALS

Spoiler

• Jab: Chop -> Roundhouse Kick -> Whip Flurry -> Sword Slash
• Jab (held): Chop -> Roundhouse Kick -> Donkey Kick
• Dash Attack: Inward Slash
• Down Tilt: Whip Lash
• Forward Tilt: Outward Slice
• Upwards Tilt: Arcing Cut

SMASHES

Spoiler

• Down Smash: Axe Spin
• Forward Smash: Spear Stab
• Up Smash: Whip Hurricane

SPECIALS

Spoiler

• Neutral Special: Failnaught
• Down Special: Aymr
• Side Special: Areadbhar
• Up Special: Sword of the Creator

AERIALS

Spoiler

• Neutral Air: Bow Spin
• Down Air: Axe Chop
• Forward Air: Lance Slap Forwards
• Up Air: Whip Tornado
• Back Air: Lance Slap Backwards

THROWS

Spoiler

• Grab: Off-hand Grapple
• Down Throw: Descending whip slap
• Forward Throw: Rising whip slap
• Up Throw: Sword Bunt
• Back Throw: Spin Throw

Spoiler: Matches

1/20
HAT 98 - Demise | Nicko (Byleth) Vs. Charliedaking (Wolf)
HAT 98 - Demise | Nicko (Byleth) Vs. LGCY | Sharpy (Incineroar)
HAT 98 - Demise | Nicko (Byleth) Vs. DCG WC | Ki (Ryu)
HAT 98 - Demise | Nicko (Byleth) Vs. NVR | Rival (Zero Suit Samus)
DNA S5:W5 - Liquid | Dabuz (Byleth) Vs. NGG | Sensei (Snake)
DNA S5:W5 - Liquid | Dabuz (Byleth) Vs. CS | FinallyRJ (Yoshi)
DNA S5:W5 - Liquid | Dabuz (Byleth) Vs. W2W | LemonTea (Fox)
DNA S5:W5 - Liquid | Dabuz (Byleth) Vs. Vivi (Hero, Lucario)
DNA S5:W5 - NGG | Sensei (Byleth, Snake) Vs. SK | Steezy (Lucina)
The Grind 112 - Pink Fresh (Byleth) Vs. ZD [L] (Wolf, Fox)
The Grind 112 - Pink Fresh (Byleth) Vs. Seagull Joe (Palutena, Young Link)
The Grind 112 - Pink Fresh (Byleth) Vs. ZD (Wolf)
The Grind 112 - Pink Fresh (Byleth) Vs. ColdWeatherr (Pit)
The Grind 112 - Miles (Byleth) Vs. Cupcake (ROB)
The Grind 112 - Pink Fresh (Byleth) Vs. LetItRain (Cloud)
2/20
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Javi (Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Hero)
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Yariz (Bayonetta)
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Jojoseph (Greninja, Snake)

Spoiler: Dedicated Players

Pink Fresh

Spoiler: Patches

1/28: 7.0.0
-Officially Releases

Archived (aka Not In Use)

Spoiler: Pre-Release Analyses

Now, let's begin with some good old-fashioned moveset overanalysis on an unreleased character with all their attributes subject to change! Try to generate discussion, but let's not to get too excited or too disappointed with them, considering this is early in both Byleth's development and his meta. Buying into anything too hard is a recipe for being embarrassed later on. As for the moves themselves, I will try to use general names as we don't know what any of them are actually called.
GENERAL ATTRIBUTES

Spoiler

• Tall, around Ike height
• Dash Speed is sluggish, better than Robin's and around the same speed as Ike.
• Aerial Speed is also sluggish, same as above.
• Jump Height is mediocre
• Fall Speed is floatier than average
• Basically his mobility is poor, on the level of Ike's and better than Robin's.
• Average roll speed and distance

NORMALS

Spoiler

• Jab: Chop -> Roundhouse Kick -> Whip Flurry
  • Similar moves: Ike Jab combo
  • Startup: 4
  • Extremely fast for a swordsman, beating out Chrom/Roy's jab by one frame and tying with Ike's jab. Also has the benefit of a jab infinite that covers a huge area in front of them. Obviously isn't as good a combo starter and lacks the range of Chrom and Roy, but as one of Byleth's few fast moves, it'll probably be used often. The huge range of the jab infinite will definitely act as a free edgeguard for characters like Terry or Cloud, but that's not saying much.
• Dash Attack: Inward Slash
  • Similar moves: Roy/Chrom DA, Young Link DA, Toon Link DA.
  • Startup: 9
  • A committal dash attack that doesn't crossup when used up close and appears to be very punishable. Relatively fast in comparison to say, Chrom and Roy beating it by 4 frames, but unfortunately doesn't appear to be a good burst option. Hypothetically, it'll kill at later percents and be good for tech chasing.
• Down Tilt: Whip Lash
  • Similar moves: Ike Dtilt, Corrin Dtilt
  • Startup: 13
  • A long range disjointed poking tool that knocks the opponent straight upwards for further comboes. Seems like a great option in controlling space and starting comboes and considering how it directly touches the floor, it may even 2-frame some opponents. Issue is, it's very slow for a dtilt, so using this at max range is preferred. Expect this to be one of Byleth's good moves.
• Forward Tilt: Outward Slice
  • Similar moves: Corrin Ftilt, Cloud Ftilt.
  • Startup: 8
  • A long range overhead slash outwards that seems to cover a large amount of space above and in front of Byleth. It's got a sluggish startup but relatively good range and probably decent killing power to compensate. Probably not as good as Chrom's Ftilt, but definitely an improvement over Corrin's Ftilt, so... around Cloud's presumably.
• Upwards Tilt: Arcing Cut
  • Similar Moves: Link UTilt (from Smash 4)
  • Startup: 10
  • Covers an extremely large arc above Byleth, easily reaching platforms above and knocking people out of the sky, while also hitting in front and behind Byleth. Doesn't appear to kill until later, but the coverage alone will probably make this move a valuable cornerstone to Byleth's moveset. It's punishable however, so discretion must be used.

SMASHES

Spoiler

• Down Smash: Axe Spin
  • Similar Moves: Joker DSmash, Shulk Dsmash
  • Startup: 19
  • An extremely slow high damaging spinning slash that deals a massive amount of damage and knockback. Will be extremely risky to pull out as a predicted punish, but it may have some use 2-framing or drag-down nair setups. Doubt either of those will happen, but fingers crossed.
• Forward Smash: Spear Stab
  • Similar Moves: Corrin FSmash,
  • Startup: 23
  • A slow but powerful and long-range stab with the spear. The hitbox is especially narrow, but it can be angled up and down possibly letting it 2-frame and catch jump-ins or ledge-jumps. When angled upwards, the power is amplified, making it even stronger. However on smaller characters like Inkling or Pikachu/Pichu, this move may be too slow and too narrow and too far to consider using against them outside of ledge-trapping. Also has a tipper mechanic, where the shaft is a pathetic tap while the spearhead is a strong stab.
• Up Smash: Whip Hurricane
  • Similar Moves: ZSS USmash
  • Startup: 13
  • A relatively fast (but most likely not OOS level) Usmash that hits on the ground and covers an absolutely ginormous hitbox above Byleth, lasting a long amount of time and racking up lots of damage. Very likely to be extremely useful given ZSS's almost idential USmash is one of the best USmashes in the game. The ability to hit low opponents makes it a better move to use in close-range punishes than FSmash. Scary move all around.

SPECIALS

Spoiler

• Neutral Special: Charge Bow
  • Similar Moves: Link NeutralB, Dark Pit NeutralB
  • Startup: 45 + 74 (119) (max charge)
  • A variant of the typical bow neutral special. Unable to let go of charge manually and must charge to 1 of 2 stages. Luckily has several features to balance out the large amount of drawbacks this entails. Being able to switch sides is a negligible one but is worth mentioning still, This move can be shield-cancelled before going past the first charge, making it less commital overall. The speed and damage of the arrow at charge 1 is higher than average, travels in a straight line at a high speed, and does a decent amount of knockback. At its 2nd and MUCH LONGER charge, the arrow becomes a beam of light that is not only fast, but instant and deal insane amounts of damage and knockback, almost equivalent to a smash. It should be obvious, but either of the arrows go through hitboxes entirely. The move seems far too slow to be used outside of attacking characters that are forced to recover horizontally like Ike. Otherwise, using this move leaves Byleth much too wide open against the top and high tier characters, especially since past the first charge Byleth has to wait a full second to get to charge 2.
• Down Special: Axe Slam
  • Similar Moves: Roy/Chrom NeutralB, Ganondorf NeutralB, Ike NeutralB
  • Startup: 64
  • A memey "all or nothing" attack that will rarely, if ever, see actual use. Needless to say, it does an intense amount of damage and knockback, but those probably don't outweighs the negatives of being a committal ~64 frame attack. It has some benefits like being able to turn around once during the start up, having an arcing hitbox that hits behind, a shockwave that hits grounded opponents just out of reach, a nigh infinite amount of armor, and will probably break shields, but using this move is just asking to be grabbed or at worst dodged and optimally punished. If you do want to use it, I recommend it as a last-resort ledge trap option against a really predictable opponent.
• Side Special: Spear Carve
  • Similar Moves: Zelda DownB (specifically the Phantom at max charge)
  • Startup: 21 (ground), 20 (air)
  • A very interesting rushing move that covers a ginormous amount of space in front and above him (even below if used in the air). It has a lot of power judging by its windup, and can be "smash" inputted to travel an even greater distance. While the move is risky if used up close, it will prove an invaluable whiff punish, anti-air, and an aerial move that serves to complement Byleth's narrow fair/bair. The aerial itself is also absolutely massive reaching in almost a 180 degree area in front of him, though it does leave him helpless afterward, making it that much riskier. Will probably see regular use as a punish and not thrown out raw.
• Up Special: Whip Grapple
  • Similar Moves: Joker UpB, Ivysaur UpB
  • Startup: 11
  • An interesting move with a lot of moving parts. For one, the move is very fast (again, not OOS fast, but still quick relatively). It's "effective hitbox" is the entire diagonal space above him; anyone hit will be brought to the apex and spiked down or up and away depending on the amount of damage, ~50% seems to be when the spike starts happening. Seems to be a great callout move for those trying to float far above Byleth in a similar way to Joker, but it can also hit directly in front of Byleth and grapple effect also works mid-air. This move appears to be slower though, which makes it far worse as a recovery option. On the other hand though, it would be incredibly intimidating to edgeguard if you're at high percent considering getting hit by it means almost instant death. The lack of a horizontal recovery also will probably make recovery with this predictable and easy. It's hard to say where it lies in Byleth's quality of moves, polarizing as it is, but regardless it's the only option he has, and it serves its function pretty well.

AERIALS

Spoiler

• Neutral Air: Bow Spin
  • Similar Moves: Pit Nair, Ivysaur Nair, Piranha Plant Nair
  • Startup: 6
  • An extremely fast startup multihitting spin move. It serves as combo filler and is Byleth's fastest (and one of his few) "get off me" buttons. Unfortunately, its hitbox is demonstrably puny which means hitting opponents will be quite difficult and getting them to stay in with Ultimate's janky multihitting moves moreso. It may be able to function as a desperate OOS option unlike most other Byleth's moves. It might string into Byleth's fair or itself, but otherwise it's a pretty good move albeit, not stellar. Probably autocancels too, which is nice.
• Down Air: Axe Chop
  • Similar Moves: Ike Dair, Chrom/Roy Dair
  • Startup: 22
  • An extremely slow, risky, but disjointed spike. We've seen dozens of these types of moves and they're never good (Unless you're Arsene'd Joker or Palutena). At least this one does a ton of shield damage, but getting in position for it may be easier said than done. Obviously does not autocancel.
• Forward Air: Lance Slap Forwards
  • Similar Moves: Greninja Fair, Mewtwo Fair
  • Startup: 12
  • A relatively fast and long range fair. Its disjoint is massive allowing for very safe pokes and shield pokes. Unfortunately it isn't all that powerful, doesn't combo into anything, and lacks verticality making it hard to hit small characters and mobile characters (unfortunately characters that mostly consist of top tier material). Still though, it's pretty good all things considered and probably going to be used for aerial air to air combat. Unfortunately, does not appear to auto-cancel.
• Up Air: Whip Tornado
  • Similar Moves: Palutena Uair
  • Startup: 9
  • One of Byleth's scariest moves. It covers a ginormous amount of space above Byleth and also lasts a long time being a multi-hitting attack. Its endlag is very small allowing Byleth to repeatedly jump up and use it making it a strong and frustrating juggling tool. Its killing power is currently ambiguous, but regardless if used high up, it would probably kill regardless. Does not autocancel.
• Back Air: Lance Slap Backwards
  • Similar Moves: Shulk Bair
  • Startup: 13
  • Extremely similar to fair in almost every regard, strengths and weaknesses all. It's slightly slower by a frame or two, but compensates by being slightly stronger and slightly longer.

THROWS

Spoiler

Sakurai himself has stated that these are all nothing special, with the grab itself having low range.

• Grab: Off-hand Grapple
  • Standard Grab; said to "lack range" and lead to unimpressive throws.
• Down Throw: ???
• Forward Throw: ???
• Up Throw: Sword Bunt
  • Only seen in the trailer, doesn't appear to have a lot of power given the animation and the statements made by Sakurai on his throws.
• Back Throw: Spin Throw
  • Comparisons: Mario
  • Seems to be a pretty standard back-throw, with maybe slightly more knockback than the average weapon wielder, but otherwise it's nothing special.

CONCLUSION

Spoiler

Overall, Byleth seems to not be overly impressive. He contains a multitude of moves that are extraordinarily powerful and long-ranged and disjointed, however he lacks many tools that are almost required to be a top level character in Ultimate. A good amount of his moves are sluggish and he lacks potent "get-of-me" tools like Link's nair or Joker's everything. He excels in controlling the mid-range to long-range with absolutely massive hitboxes, but should someone get past that and put him in disadvantage, he may never get the chance to turn it around. Also the lack of a horizontal recovery really hurts and makes his recovery predictable, on top of the slow upB, low mobility, and floaty-ish fall speed it really makes him a target to be bullied offstage. All in all, he currently does not appear to be doing so hot, so hopefully the meta develops in a way Byleth carves out a niche or he gets some buffs along the way to his release.

Other Pros' Analyses:
Zer0
ESAM
Armada
Leffen (Warning, As much complaining about Byleth as a character choice as it is an actual analysis)

 

[Arrei]

Feels like we're making dangerous assumptions about his grounded A moves. I'm hesitant to believe his tilts will kill at all outside of extreme percents given his design philosophy around massive area control, and we certainly don't want to assume by default that his downward Fsmash will in fact be able to 2-frame. The lance looks like it might just barely touch the ground with the ornamental part of its head, but it's all going to depend on how generous the devs intend to be with the height of that tipper hitbox. Some similar moves end up able to 2-frame while others can't even hit characters passively hanging off the ledge...

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

I think it's mostly hard to give a good statement on his Tilts until we get their shield safety. He may suffer a lot more than he's already being given credit for if he lacks a good neutral poke. D-Tilt is definitely too slow, not even with start up but there's a considerable amount of end lag to it shown in the stream. I'd be surprised if it turned out to be a safe move. If F-Tilt has good advantage on shield from a combination of it's range and stun, that would be great. F-Tilt is the only move I really have hope for as far as poking and reliable spacing tools goes.

 

[Teeb147]

What I'm hoping for is that either after the videos we saw, or some feedback now, that the smash team changes up Byleth a little to be able to handle some rush down characters, like maybe making nair connect well or making a few moves faster, like d-tilt and some other ones. Obviously, going to have to deal with whatever they're given for now, but I'd love for the character to be balanced enough to face different characters 1v1.

In the worst case, the character could be a secondary or pocket for certain matchups, but hey, I can dream

 

[Idon]

Feels like we're making dangerous assumptions about his grounded A moves. I'm hesitant to believe his tilts will kill at all outside of extreme percents given his design philosophy around massive area control, and we certainly don't want to assume by default that his downward Fsmash will in fact be able to 2-frame. The lance looks like it might just barely touch the ground with the ornamental part of its head, but it's all going to depend on how generous the devs intend to be with the height of that tipper hitbox. Some similar moves end up able to 2-frame while others can't even hit characters passively hanging off the ledge...

Hmm, I may be was a bit too generous but when I meant the tilts will kill, I was thinking along the lines of moves like Link's utilt and ftilt where they kill at later percents.

As for the FSmash, I would hope the devs have the foresight to make the slow angle-able move the ability to hit below ledge, but... yeah it's going to depend on how generous the hitbox is.

 

[Roberk]

While I appreciate an FE character having different attributes compared to the typical speedy Marth, I hope Byleth isn't too limited by his movement. Up-B also being a grapple limits options like how FE characters can usually Up-B to high platforms safely to get away from opponents. I feel like characters with slower movement stats should be given more moves that allow them to move around, but oh well. On the flip side, if Up-B is anything like Joker's Grapple then going deep under ledge and recovering without being edgegaurded is going to be a breeze.

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

While I appreciate an FE character having different attributes compared to the typical speedy Marth, I hope Byleth isn't too limited by his movement. Up-B also being a grapple limits options like how FE characters can usually Up-B to high platforms safely to get away from opponents. I feel like characters with slower movement stats should be given more moves that allow them to move around, but oh well. On the flip side, if Up-B is anything like Joker's Grapple then going deep under ledge and recovering without being edgegaurded is going to be a breeze.

Well, being able to Up-B to the top BF platform is definitely a Marcina thing only, safely that is. The Tether range has been shown already to be pretty forgiving, though I do question if it'll have the mix up potential Joker's up b to fake out when you'll pull up

Hmm, I may be was a bit too generous but when I meant the tilts will kill, I was thinking along the lines of moves like Link's utilt and ftilt where they kill at later percents.

As for the FSmash, I would hope the devs have the foresight to make the slow angle-able move the ability to hit below ledge, but... yeah it's going to depend on how generous the hitbox is.

Considering how hitboxs in the game are circular and how low the blade part is when they angle down, I for one am fairly confident the move will 2 frame and hit ledge since there HAS to be a hitbox on the end of the move because of it's tipper mechanic. I'm really not sure how much they could **** a hitbox up like that so much to where a move designed like this wouldn't hit ledge.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, being able to Up-B to the top BF platform is definitely a Marcina thing only, safely that is. The Tether range has been shown already to be pretty forgiving, though I do question if it'll have the mix up potential Joker's up b to fake out when you'll pull up


Considering how hitboxs in the game are circular and how low the blade part is when they angle down, I for one am fairly confident the move will 2 frame and hit ledge since there HAS to be a hitbox on the end of the move because of it's tipper mechanic. I'm really not sure how much they could **** a hitbox up like that so much to where a move designed like this wouldn't hit ledge.

I do know that Ridley's ftilt, which is essentially the exact same move with his tail, can indeed hit ledge-hangers when angled down.

 

[Arrei]

Considering how hitboxs in the game are circular and how low the blade part is when they angle down, I for one am fairly confident the move will 2 frame and hit ledge since there HAS to be a hitbox on the end of the move because of it's tipper mechanic. I'm really not sure how much they could **** a hitbox up like that so much to where a move designed like this wouldn't hit ledge.

Sometimes, hitboxes across similar moves are just placed differently, whether it's arbitrarily or to purposely prevent moves from doing things like 2-framing. Like here, DK's Dsmash hitboxes are placed higher to not hit the ledge despite his fists slamming into the ground, while Hero's blade hitbox extends below his sword.

If they intentionally don't want Byleth's downward Fsmash to hit the ledge, it wouldn't be difficult to simply place the hitboxes higher so the lowest hitbox doesn't cover it. Some moves in this game don't even fully cover a limb or weapon's model during their animations, so I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sometimes, hitboxes across similar moves are just placed differently, whether it's arbitrarily or to purposely prevent moves from doing things like 2-framing. Like here, DK's Dsmash hitboxes are placed higher to not hit the ledge despite his fists slamming into the ground, while Hero's blade hitbox extends below his sword.

If they intentionally don't want Byleth's downward Fsmash to hit the ledge, it wouldn't be difficult to simply place the hitboxes higher so the lowest hitbox doesn't cover it. Some moves in this game don't even fully cover a limb or weapon's model during their animations, so I wouldn't put it past them.

He did emphasize the up-angled move a lot. Almost as if he REALLY wanted fsmash to be used for stabbing people mid-jump... Could it hit people standing on lower platforms if this was the case?

 

[Idon]

I'd like to give a quick shoutout to Indigo Jeans for compiling on the frame data in a digestible and aesthetically pleasing chart.

Hopefully most of it remains intact on release as to not put all that work to waste!

 

[Oz o:]

But I think you did a great job as it is. :D

 

[Idon]

Hey guys, Byleth's finally out! I'm only one person so if you guys could please point me to any pro players, interesting VODs, guides, basically anything that I miss for Byleth pertaining to his competitive viability in the future, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Sidenote: the pikachu Byleth matchup is ABSOLUTELY awful.

 

[Iron Maw]

Hey guys, Byleth's finally out! I'm only one person so if you guys could please point me to any pro players, interesting VODs, guides, basically anything that I miss for Byleth pertaining to his competitive viability in the future, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Sidenote: the pikachu Byleth matchup is ABSOLUTELY awful.

I posted this in the CCI thread so it can go here too. Nicko is the top Shulk in his region and his play of Byleth against most relevant meta match is pretty good for studying

 

[Nah]

Sidenote: the pikachu Byleth matchup is ABSOLUTELY awful.

Can't say I'm surprised, Pikachu-Robin is awful too. Pika kind of just eats slow zoners alive really. Fox is likely to be a ****ty MU as well imo.

 

[meleebrawler]

Can't say I'm surprised, Pikachu-Robin is awful too. Pika kind of just eats slow zoners alive really. Fox is likely to be a ****ty MU as well imo.

Standing on platforms when applicable is surprisingly effective at getting characters like this stymied. Because they usually want to use their superior ground speed to punish your commitments and coming in high is a no-no against Byleth's, so they usually go for short hop pressure up close. Platforms force them to expose themselves more trying to get you, and I've used this well as Incineroar.

 

[HenryXLII]

I'm going to drop my first impressions of the character here because I got a lot of problems with Byleth that I want to express and want feedback on.

If I had to use one word to describe this character it would be frustration. Everything that could be cool about this character is tied down by some weakness that prevents the character from being satisfying to play and gives the character a lack of an identity IMO.

Byleth has no reliable "get off me tools" so you would think you would play like a zoner, yet their projectile is clunky. The next natural thing to try is their spear for powerful long-ranged pokes. But it feels that no matter how you well space Side Smash and Side Special, the move is unsafe on shield. The same can be said for Forward/Backair if you miss the auto-cancel timing. As a result, I feel like I have to be constantly putting myself at risk in neutral, which is counter-intuitive to a defensive character.

On the more aggressive side of play, Byleth's tools seem excellent for juggling characters and bullying characters with bad disadvantage. But their slow speed and slow airspeed mean that you have to really commit to any options you are covering. On the flip side, Byleth is absolutely miserable in disadvantage, even more so than Robin who at the very least as a solid wave bounce in neutral special.

Up Special breaks my heart because this move had the most potential for fun flashy plays in the entire kit. The reward for landing this move on stage is underwhelming to say the least. The fact that they can DI the combo takes away from the move's overall utility, and at high percents, I dare say this move is detrimental to go for. The spike's bounce does not kill at even ludicrous percents, and to make matters worse the move puts Byleth above their opponent, which is a terrible position for them.

But what really stings is using this move off stage. Byleth seems to favor grappling to the stage over their opponent even when they are facing away from the stage. Hell, I have had times where the chain goes through my opponent just to connect to the ledge. This makes ZERO sense considering that unlike other grapples, Byleth actually gets a boost from hitting their opponent.

The current state of the move prevents it from being used to edge guard except for very specific, dangerous angles considering Byleth's slow airspeed. You could say this was done to prevent the move from being overpowered, but Byleth has horrendously predictable recovery with no real way to defend themselves off stage.

My last frustration is grab. It makes sense for the character archetype to be bad at grabbing. But having no kill throws or true combos makes Byleth's time against shields even worse. Even Robin, a character with very similar design philosophy has a situational kill throw. While down-air and down smash are both fantastic things to deter shields, they are also high commitment options.

All in all I think Byleth is one of the weakest characters in the game, and not even in a fun way. Their entire kit just feels counter-intuitive and full of wasted potential.

 

[Idon]

Yeah, general concensus is...

he's awful.

Maybe one of the worst if not the worst designed characters in the game. None of his moves nor his attributes fit together in a cohesive manner and they all work to get in the way of one another. I honestly don't know how a character like this ever got past playtesting when he is so unfun, unresponsive, and unviable.

 

[Gleam]

Let's get this straight.

You have one of the slowest characters in the game, both on the ground and in the air. You have a character, whose majority of moveset has so much lag that even the long ranged ones get you punished despite proper spacing? You have a character with arguably one of the worst projectiles in the game. A projectile that does not allow for zoning of any sort to help keep opponents off your slow, clunky butt. You have a character whose moveset, often ends up clipping through characters, most notably with the spear. You have a character who, thanks to DI, can barely land reasonable combos. You have a character who is stupidly at risk of being comboed thanks to said sluggishness. You have a character whose recovery is easily exploitable. You have a tool, Sword of the Creator, ripe for edgeguarding and easy kills offstage, unable to be used as such for most of the time. You have a character with no burst options or good OOS options.


Slow, sluggish, easily comboed, laggy attacks, poor burst options, poor OOS options, poor recovery, inconsistent attacks, etc.

It's no wonder so many people think this character sucks and I have to seriously have to ask if there's anyone who can look at this character and say.

"Yeah, Byleth isn't Bottom 10."


But hey guys, Byleth has a potential 0-Death combo on and god forbid we allow DK to get away with the evil's he's committed.

 

[HenryXLII]

I think the character's lack of viability or even fun for that matter is especially sad because the character got so much backlash when they were revealed. I really wanted Byleth to be a well received character at the very least in the gameplay department, but I struggle to say I have fun with the character.

Even other weaker characters like Ganondorf and Little Mac have fun satisfying strings and moves that make up for their overall weaknesses.

 

[Rizen]

I'm reserving my judgements on Byleth until after tonight, when I use her in a tournament. I plan to go B game 1 and if I lose switch to my usual characters. I'll post back here afterwards.

 

[HyperL]

All her tilts need less ending lag despite the range.

all her aerials need less landing lag despite the range and power.

Side B (both on ground and air) needs their startup cut in half.

Up B needs the magnet straight up removed and the spike way less DI'able somehow.
Perhaps disabling DI on meteor effect all together should be the theme next patch, lol.

Now, it may be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't doubt for a second that the character will be buffed somehow in future patches.

I think Sakurai overestimated the power of range too much and erroneously added too much lag on her moves, but he'll realize something is not quite right with the character.

 

[Rizen]

Well I went to the tournament and got 5 rounds in (winning 3 sets) while only winning 2 games with and the rest Byleth. I did better than I thought because I did NOT have high hopes for Byleth, lol, but took several games. I'll write in depth tomorrow but for now will agree with everyone: Byleth's pretty bad and has a high mastery level on top of that. She's kind of like a cross between Ganon and Marth and not in a good way.

 

[Idon]

Well I went to the tournament and got 5 rounds in (winning 3 sets) while only winning 2 games with and the rest Byleth. I did better than I thought because I did NOT have high hopes for Byleth, lol, but took several games. I'll write in depth tomorrow but for now will agree with everyone: Byleth's pretty bad and has a high mastery level on top of that. She's kind of like a cross between Ganon and Marth and not in a good way.

Hey that's really impressive. I knew you were a pretty big Young Link main so I wasn't sure if the skillsets would transfer over well.

 

[Iron Maw]

Really looking forward to Leo using him in tournaments.

Well I went to the tournament and got 5 rounds in (winning 3 sets) while only winning 2 games with and the rest Byleth. I did better than I thought because I did NOT have high hopes for Byleth, lol, but took several games. I'll write in depth tomorrow but for now will agree with everyone: Byleth's pretty bad and has a high mastery level on top of that. She's kind of like a cross between Ganon and Marth and not in a good way.

Nice job!

 

[Iron Maw]

please delete

 

[Iron Maw]

 

[Rizen]

Alright, here's my thoughts on Byleth:

B is one of those characters who struggles in neutral but has high reward on hit. She has several moves that kill around 80% and a Dair so strong you can bounce opponents against the stage and kill them off the top at 110%. She has great reach on paper. Unfortunately her mobility is trash, she lacks a burst option or way to deal with projectiles and her moves are slow AND require sweetspotting several of them. She's basically Ganon but hard to play. She's also fairly light at 97 units, same as shulk.

Moves that use the lance (IDK all the FE lore names) are highly situational because there's such a small sweet spot. Despite the long range the hitboxes are bad. Although they're not useless. I've found spacing F/Bair like Shulk's Bair and using Fsmash to wiff punish to be effective. Fsmash is really long and I've killed Inkling using splatter shot on me at 80%. Fortunately sideB has amazing hitboxes, although it's punishable if blocked. Most of the time sideB is a better substitute for normal lance moves.

DownB doesn't have armor until frame 34-63 so it's not a good escape option for juggles and not very useful in general, except ledge trapping. You have to have a hard read to tank hits.

Bow can almost break shields at full charge but since you can't vary the timing on release except weak and strong shots it's easy to react to. Even though charged bow kills it's very hard to land even when sniping someone offstage. Opponents can just jump to platforms or crawl under shots. YL's bow is much better. It is possible to land weak shots but you have to be far away; they fire on frame 45 (full charge 114) and are best used from a jump/SH to hit an opponent when landing.

UpB is actually a really nice move and a better version of Joker's. If the opponent jumps offstage to intercept your recovery you can upB and spike them. It has good range for tethering ledges making B very risky to challenge offstage.

B does have some moves that save her from being complete trash. SideB as mentioned has huge hitboxes. Nair is f6 and a great GTFO too. Her jab is f4 and her tilts are decent but lack the range of lance moves. Usmash and Uair have great hitboxes in advantage. Grab is f 6 but doesn't really lead into combos even though Dthrow looks like it should setup into side B. IDK how her kill throw game is.

Overall B's high reward on hit keeps her out of low tier but she's not much better imo. Vortex characters like Mario destroy her and she struggles with characters that can break her mediocre walling. She can be scary if she outplays you as I learned playing against the guy who won the last tournament but that is reliant on outplaying the opponent, like Ganon. Her high skill ceiling for properly spacing lance on top all this takes away her viability even more. So much for DLC privilege :/

 

[Idon]

Hey, the first Byleth local has been won! The Grind 112 goes to up and coming Byleth player Pink Fresh.

Is it a lack of matchup knowledge or a sign of hidden potential, we'll find out in time.

 

[Iron Maw]

Hey, the first Byleth local has been won! The Grind 112 goes to up and coming Byleth player Pink Fresh.

Is it a lack of matchup knowledge or a sign of hidden potential, we'll find out in time.

Yep. It was Pink Fresh and he didn't drop a set until Grands either. Not bad for 2-3 day old character!

 

[HypnoMaster372]

Is it a lack of matchup knowledge or a sign of hidden potential, we'll find out in time.

Honesty, can't these tournaments prevent the use of a newly released character so players can get use to them.

It just feel unfair to abuse the lack of knowledge to obtain easy victories.

 

[BlackInk]

Honesty, can't these tournaments prevent the use of a newly released character so players can get use to them.

It just feel unfair to abuse the lack of knowledge to obtain easy victories.

They’re locals, they want to push out the new stuff to quickly develop a place for the new character in match ups and what they are capable of.

 

[Idon]

MKLeo's Byleth run at his local got uploaded.

Here's his matches! Check it out if you want:
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Javi (Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Hero)
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Yariz (Bayonetta)
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Jojoseph (Greninja, Snake)

 

[BlackInk]

MKLeo's Byleth run at his local got uploaded.

Here's his matches! Check it out if you want:
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Javi (Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Hero)
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Yariz (Bayonetta)
MKSunday 62 - MKLeo (Byleth) vs Jojoseph (Greninja, Snake)

What I find annoying is how everyone talks about di as if 50/50s are not 50/50s. Going for them is actually good because 50/50s are extremely comparable to tech chases. MKleo covers why Byleth’s 50/50s are actually fantastic on his YouTube video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XBIRhFUxeEk

 

[F1R3S70RM]

So I've been playing with Byleth quite a bit, and I do believe they've got plenty of potential, but I find that they require perfect play to be viable.

Byleth has some moves that are safe on shield,
Byleth can combo (a bit)
Byleth has kill confirms
Byleth has 50/50 setups
Byleth can gimp and set up for early kills.
Byleth can easily delete shields

On paper, Byleth has a lot of potential that make him/her viable, but because of her restrictive mobility (both air/ground), none of it is abusable. Many high/top tier characters have moves that they can throw out for free in neutral that are guaranteed set ups for combos or kill confirms, or even break out of combos with. Byleth does not have this at all. Every move she has requires some form of commitment which can be avoided or punished unless executed perfectly. Her most consistent kill "confirms" are not even true confirms and can be avoided with quick reflexes and matchup knowledge, and they are risky to attempt.

Her safest moves are arguably Fair, Bair and Dtilt, but none of them are actually safe unless spaced perfectly. It's easy to just say "they are good if you play them right" which is usually a BS blanket statement, but I feel that it is particularly true of Byleth. For him/her to be consistently effective, you almost need to play perfectly, because any mistakes you make can and will be punished in higher levels of play. You can't realistically always perfectly space your moves because to do so requires a keen knowledge of your opponent and where you anticipate them being. Even if you nail the spacing of the move, there is rarely a guaranteed follow up, and you need to rely on reading your opponents habits to capitalize on the advantage state. Make no mistake, Byleth can EASILY decimate an opponent if you make good reads. But, so can many characters. And many characters can still do so while being much more forgiving if you make a mistake.

For example, Fairs and Bairs won't net you any combos, but give you poke damage, so they serve to tack on damage or make the killshot. They allow you to play a game of Cat-and-Mouse until someone makes a mistake.
Dtilt can lead to combos, but it's typically a 50/50 meaning you have to be keenly aware of your opponents habits to follow up consistently. It's also a very slow move with a very low hit box, so it's useless for aerial approaches.

Nair is also a mixed bag of good and bad.

Landed Nair can lead to a jab lock kill, or just a Fsmash kill as early as 70%, unless your opponent knows to tech roll away, as any other option will get hit. Nair has a F6 startup, which is great, but unlike many similar nairs, the hitbox follows the bow, so it often whiffs when you don't expect it to, which makes it unfortunately inconsistent at always getting people on you, or landing certain hits. It's also because of this that it can send the opponent in different directions, which makes it a bit of a guessing game to predict which direction you need to follow up in.

Her out of sheild options are also very lacklustre. Nair is the quickest, but won't always hit for the aformentioned reasons, And Usmash/UpB hit in front of you, but not behind, so it's risky to throw those out, unless you do it perfectly. All of these options have enough endlag to get punished for.

Honestly, I could easily go on, but the TL;DR of the matter is that she has great potential, but little room for error. If you basically play a perfect game, you will be rewarded.

If they were to be adjusted in any way, I would focus on 1 of the below points:

1. Adjusting endlag on some moves. I think the slowish startups are important because it keeps the focus on outplaying your opponent and playing precisely. I would shave a bit endlag (so that some of the risk is reduced so that they don't automatically get bodied for suboptimally placed moves.
2. Adjusting shieldstun to lower the risk on a well spaced move that got shielded. There are many moves like jab or Fsmash, Ftilt, Side B that even with the best spacing and max range, will always get punished if you whiff,
3. Slight buff to aerial mobility, to allow her to position a bit better, or take better advantage of her advantage state. I think her mobility is deliberately designed to not allow her to abuse the advantage state, but it's so bad that there is no way to stay on a player for more than a couple of hits before you can't keep up.

I don't want the character to be broken, and honestly any major change could make them completely busted, but I think minor tweaks in any of these areas would make them more consistently playable. They have many tools to do great things, but will always be held back by the skill of the player itself, who would probably achieve the same results with other characters at that point.

 

[Idon]

LMAO MKLeo's playing with his food on his last game of frostbite.

I guess technically we got S-tier tournament representation now.

 

[Oz o:]

LMAO MKLeo's playing with his food on his last game of frostbite.

I guess technically we got S-tier tournament representation now.

It’s literally one match. People aren’t actually serious, are they?

If someone like Nairo won a major, and only went Ganondorf only on the very last game, would you seriously consider that proper representation? A real character representative would’ve at least gone 50% of matches. I’m pretty sure Nairo’s reverse 3-0 on Light has even greater value, if we’re being practical.

 

[Idon]

It’s literally one match. People aren’t actually serious, are they?

If someone like Nairo won a major, and only went Ganondorf only on the very last game, would you seriously consider that proper representation? A real character representative would’ve at least gone 50% of matches. I’m pretty sure Nairo’s reverse 3-0 on Light has even greater value, if we’re being practical.

Some are, but I think those people really aren't considering context.

Though I do think Byleth does have a few things going for him in the GnW MU, Byleth being an "S-tier tournament character" just doesn't sound right in my head considering against every other character up there, Byleth would've faced a far bigger challenge, not to mention Maister was at his wit's end on the verge of being 6-0'd even attempting a Pichu switch for a moment.

Anyway, now that Byleth is "on the boards" so to speak, I very much doubt we'll be getting mobility buffs for our boy now, lol.

 

[Oz o:]

It's alright, I understand.

I am not at MKLeo's level yet, but I consider myself to be progressing a bit. Is this place only reserved for matches of top-level players? I took a set off our 5th seed at our monthly of the 23rd. I really wish I had saved the set, because it was some of the best I've played.

 

[Idon]

It's alright, I understand.

I am not at MKLeo's level yet, but I consider myself to be progressing a bit. Is this place only reserved for matches of top-level players? I took a set off our 5th seed at our monthly of the 23rd. I really wish I had saved the set, because it was some of the best I've played.

Anything's fine for this thread really. If you think it's worth watching than I'd be happy to put it in the OP.