Bum's feedback and mods

[shanus]

THIS IS STUFF BUM SENT ME, SOME OF IT IS LOLOUTDATED (i.e. ice toe). Interesting read though, post your thoughts.


Port town Aero dive - the cars should do less damage and aloooooot less knock back. when you reach a destination...it should take a little longer before the platform reappears.

flat zone 2 - The burning building part.... I would want the trampoline just to be a moving platform with no bouncing effect to it. The jungle part, I would want that the chairmen have no damage input or knock back on contact aka they are just background eye candy. The gas station part, I would want it that the two people at the gas station is also there for show... aka they do no damage or knock back. The kitchen part should have the chef either for show or when he throws his food.... it does 2-4 damage instead of 8 damage and very little knock back. Also if you kill the chef, the stage doesn't change automatically.... but the usually time that it should regardless if the chef is there or not. Whenever the stage changes from burning building to whatever other part.... make it that it changes into any part of the stage randomly.... so example... burning building to kitchen to jungle instead of burning building to kitchen back to burning building.

Summit - The stage is slippery, so make it that the whole stage is non slippery. When the stage starts sliding down the ice mountain, the gravity should be normal instead of being floaty. The clouds that are on the top and bottom of the stage should move slower. When the snow bear makes the stage go into the water, make it that it never goes in to deep, forcing the character to swim. The ice block in the middle of the stage should be trim down to the bottom floaty platforms or have the ice block not there to prevent camping. When the stage is sliding down the ice mountain, make it that the ice in the back doesn't drag the opponent fast to prevent quick cheap deaths. The big fish should either not exist or do knock back/damage. Take out that he kills you with one gulp.

Wario - The one min and 30 second fart should not have great knock back. the knock back should be greatly reduce. The knock back of the 2 min fart should have a little more knock back. should the grab release be taken out on Wario?

Olimar - His tether throw should be slow down since it is a tether throw just like Lucas and Link. I also feel like he has a lot of killing moves in his move set that is hardly punishable. The red pikmin up smash should be tone down as in knock back. The purple pikmin since it's heavy should have bad afterlag whether it hits the opponent, been blocked or dodged. This also applies for the forward smash with the purple pikmin. Throwing the purple pikmin should have knock back and a bit more damage.... but have after lag to it when thrown. Picking up the purple pikmin with neutral b should have more start up lag to it. His up b should have a bit more knock back than regular brawl and his up b with or without the pikmin should make him go higher.

Luigi - He has a lot of killing moves that kill extremely fast. His forward smash should be toned down. since this is meant to be competitive... I'm trying to take out the luck factor in this game so with his forward b, take out the misfire completely. The forward b should also have shield and dodge cancel properties unless after a certain amount of time or it's fully charge. The first jab of the a button should make the person slide slightly away from Luigi instead of popping the opponent up.

Bowser - He should be a powerhouse that can kill fast and doesn't have much combos from what I seen and know. His down b should do 26 damage instead of 24 if it catches the opponent. Forward smash should probably have super armor properties. Up b should have more knock back.

Ganondorf - reverse neutral b should come out as fast as neutral b which is the warlock punch. reverse b and neutral b should have super armor. A couple of people ask that they would like it if ganon gets a jump back after doing down b in the air.... like in melee. In the air or floor.... should ganon forward b go faster and further?? If forward b catches you in the air and when he spikes you to the ground.... should it put you in the ground like when donkey kong does forward b to his opponent?

Samus - Samus power missile should come out instantly, like when it's done next to the floor like her homing missile tether attack should probably come out faster or end faster in the air. should down b explode on impact or blow up faster?

Metaknight - Even though this character has gotten toned down. He is still too good cause of stun being put in. If he does the long tornado instead of the short... he should have more after lag to it so it can be punishable. The up b knockback should be toned down a bit more.... cause it still kills real fast. Down aerial should pop the opponent up in the air instead of sliding them downward. Down b should go a bit further and when it hits... should have a bit more knock back.


Game and Watch - Reduce the knock back of forward smash just a bit. The brawl plus lag on down smash is just to slow... speed up the after lag to make it punishable... not painful. Take out the air effect of up air. Like I mentioned earlier about the whole luck factor..... The 9 hammer should be taken out along with the 1 hammer. The only numbers that should be there is the 6/fire that does 12 damage, 8/ice that does 8 damage and 5/electricly that does 6 damage. I'm also thinking of adding the dark element to one of the numbers like 4.

Squirtle by himself [non tired version] - since damage in the game doesn't wither and stun is longer than usual, Squirtle can easily rack up 50 damage on any character and he also has a good amount of killing moves and the fact he doesn't get tired.... makes him a monster. Squirtle up tilt should do one or two less damage and easier to d.i which I guess put them in the tumble state. Forward air should do 8 damage instead of 10. Back air should do 9 damage instead of 10. down air should do 13 damage instead of 10 if every hit of down air connects. Down smash should do 12 damage instead of 11. The knock back of down throw should be reduce.

DDD - THE LUCK FACTOR SHOULD BE ALMOST NON EXISTANT so i want to make the gordo from forward b either taken out or knock back greatly reduce. Down b should have shield cancel properties until a certain time.. then you can't shield cancel it. up throw knock back should be reduce just a little bit.

Peach - stitchface and bom-omb should be taken out completely to avoid luck wins. her forward throw should have more knockback.

Zelda - her down air in brawl plus, if caught at certain frame freezes you and knocks to the side diagionally down extremely fast. it should go back to being the way it was in regular brawl or make it the opponent freezes and pops up in the air at a set knockback to go into a up air which is fire. her down tilt is really fast with stun/trip properties... that move should be slow down a bit. the up tilt knock back should be tone down a bit or just tone down.

Ness - Make it that ness down b can be shield cancel or air dodge cancel. his neutral b should either be faster and last longer..... but the knock back is toned down or you have full control of it till it finishes. his down tilt shouldn't trip at all and pushes the opponent away from ness a bit further to avoid infinites in the corner.

Yoshi - make the down smash hit the opponent diagionally downward like in melee. maybe he should get out his down throw faster to have a combo starter.

Snake - the knock back of up tilt should be tone down a bit more. make his forward air come out a bit faster and tone down the knock back just a little bit.

Zero suit samus - zss has speed and power with the ability to stun her opponents making her too good. she should have speed and the ability to stun.... but not so much power. her back air should have less knock back. the forward air should have a bit less knock back. her forward smash should either have a bit more knock back or more knock back. her fully charge shot should go further and be a bit slower.

Donkey kong - dk up air kills extremely fast even to heavy opponents and the knock back needs to be tone down. also down smash should make the opponent fly more to the side beside dk if dk did the down smash while looking at the opponent instead of upward.

FOOTSTOOL CANCEL - When you footstool someone on the floor, you should be able to cancel the hop off the opponent by pressing down which makes you fast fall or cancel the jump animation. The footstool should also cause a bit more lag to the opponent to allow more combos since it's barely done and would encourage players to try to put it to used.

Grab escape - SMASH always been heavily about grabbing your opponent, throwing them and following up with combos.... but how come no defensive way of getting out of a throw besides..... not getting grab? EVERY FIGHTING GAME has throw escape except this game. When your opponent grabs you and you press the grab button at the same time or just right after, The person that got grab should be able to break out of the throw instantly and both players space away from each other.

Power shield reflect - This tech used to be in melee. When a projectile such as Falco and Samus charge shot got powershield, The projectile would go back the direction it came from.... this also made players think twice about spamming projectiles all the time. Now that powershielding is harder to do.... this should be put in and reward players for being accurate with the powershielding.


MORE TECHS AND CHARACTER UPDATES COMING SOON

 

[shanus]

In terms of the techs, I actually like the idea of all three. The grab escape one is very cool idea. I think if we made it a 1 or 2 frame window, with a punishment window before it (i.e. if u push it before this window you can't perform the escape) would be awesome.

 

[goodoldganon]

THIS IS STUFF BUM SENT ME, SOME OF IT IS LOLOUTDATED (i.e. ice toe). Interesting read though, post your thoughts.


Port town Aero dive - the cars should do less damage and aloooooot less knock back. when you reach a destination...it should take a little longer before the platform reappears.

As the BRoomer that still likes the casual aspects of Smash I have two things to say here. The cars travel in a predictable pattern and 99% of the time give you a heads up of when they are going to come wreck some face. If you don't want to pay attention to your surroundings that's your own fault. That being said I wouldn't be against lowering their KB to make being hit by one of them not so devastating. Still, the stage won't ever become competitive worthy if it's original inception already isn't.

flat zone 2 - The burning building part.... I would want the trampoline just to be a moving platform with no bouncing effect to it. The jungle part, I would want that the chairmen have no damage input or knock back on contact aka they are just background eye candy. The gas station part, I would want it that the two people at the gas station is also there for show... aka they do no damage or knock back. The kitchen part should have the chef either for show or when he throws his food.... it does 2-4 damage instead of 8 damage and very little knock back. Also if you kill the chef, the stage doesn't change automatically.... but the usually time that it should regardless if the chef is there or not. Whenever the stage changes from burning building to whatever other part.... make it that it changes into any part of the stage randomly.... so example... burning building to kitchen to jungle instead of burning building to kitchen back to burning building.

No hope saving this bad boy.

Summit - The stage is slippery, so make it that the whole stage is non slippery. When the stage starts sliding down the ice mountain, the gravity should be normal instead of being floaty. The clouds that are on the top and bottom of the stage should move slower. When the snow bear makes the stage go into the water, make it that it never goes in to deep, forcing the character to swim. The ice block in the middle of the stage should be trim down to the bottom floaty platforms or have the ice block not there to prevent camping. When the stage is sliding down the ice mountain, make it that the ice in the back doesn't drag the opponent fast to prevent quick cheap deaths. The big fish should either not exist or do knock back/damage. Take out that he kills you with one gulp.

Way too many changes that don't affect the major reason this stage is banned. Loops.

Wario - The one min and 30 second fart should not have great knock back. the knock back should be greatly reduce. The knock back of the 2 min fart should have a little more knock back. should the grab release be taken out on Wario?

Ummmm no. I think that's an extra layer of skill to Wario to keep track of your fart timer. Skilled players will know when the 1:30 is up, newer Wario players will wait for the visual que.

Olimar - His tether throw should be slow down since it is a tether throw just like Lucas and Link. I also feel like he has a lot of killing moves in his move set that is hardly punishable. The red pikmin up smash should be tone down as in knock back. The purple pikmin since it's heavy should have bad afterlag whether it hits the opponent, been blocked or dodged. This also applies for the forward smash with the purple pikmin. Throwing the purple pikmin should have knock back and a bit more damage.... but have after lag to it when thrown. Picking up the purple pikmin with neutral b should have more start up lag to it. His up b should have a bit more knock back than regular brawl and his up b with or without the pikmin should make him go higher.

Nerfs should only be given to characters that are too good or stupid **** like U-tilt 'combos'. I repeat: Nerfs should only be given to characters that are too good or stupid **** like U-tilt combos.

Anyway, have you guys ever played a Pikmin game? Olimar is a HUGE camper in those games always sending his Pikmin out to do his dirty work while he sits in the back and cackles. Just because his shield grab game and range is absurd doesn't mean we need to nerf him. It makes him unique and is a huge strength and asset to his game. Also he throws every single Pikmin at the same speed in Pikmin 1 and 2. Whites are not thrown faster and purples are not thrown slower. Also, the colors you get are random when they are picked, that would be TERRIBLE to have purples be picked slower. "I spaced right so I could pick three Pikmin but crap I picked a purple last and BAM Ganon's F-air to the face."

Luigi - He has a lot of killing moves that kill extremely fast. His forward smash should be toned down. since this is meant to be competitive... I'm trying to take out the luck factor in this game so with his forward b, take out the misfire completely. The forward b should also have shield and dodge cancel properties unless after a certain amount of time or it's fully charge. The first jab of the a button should make the person slide slightly away from Luigi instead of popping the opponent up.

The Up-B is too easy to combo into as it is now. I'd rather lower it's knockback but if we want to keep it so strong then the D-throw -> Up-B needs to go. Dash cancelled jab -> Up-B is really good though...

Bowser - He should be a powerhouse that can kill fast and doesn't have much combos from what I seen and know. His down b should do 26 damage instead of 24 if it catches the opponent. Forward smash should probably have super armor properties. Up b should have more knock back.

Bowser is good to go

Ganondorf - reverse neutral b should come out as fast as neutral b which is the warlock punch. reverse b and neutral b should have super armor. A couple of people ask that they would like it if ganon gets a jump back after doing down b in the air.... like in melee. In the air or floor.... should ganon forward b go faster and further?? If forward b catches you in the air and when he spikes you to the ground.... should it put you in the ground like when donkey kong does forward b to his opponent?

Ganondorf is so **** now after the Murder Quake and Wiz Kick changes. He'll only get better if we can give him this Over-B -> D-tilt back. Leave Ganon be for the time being.

Samus - Samus power missile should come out instantly, like when it's done next to the floor like her homing missile tether attack should probably come out faster or end faster in the air. should down b explode on impact or blow up faster?

Her missiles need a decrease in KB and probably damage and those are fine. Down-b is still a mediocre escape tool so having them explode on impact isn't a bad idea. The Z-air is something new to Brawl and (I'm pretty sure) was a huge crutch in her vBrawl game. The game is much faster now so a slightly faster z-air wouldn't be a bad idea.

Metaknight - Even though this character has gotten toned down. He is still too good cause of stun being put in. If he does the long tornado instead of the short... he should have more after lag to it so it can be punishable. The up b knockback should be toned down a bit more.... cause it still kills real fast. Down aerial should pop the opponent up in the air instead of sliding them downward. Down b should go a bit further and when it hits... should have a bit more knock back.

MK has been beaten with the nerf bat already. He is still amazing and possibly the games best character but at least he is balanced now that he has CPs and tougher matchups. Capes Torando nerf was a great change and it finally won't skew matches one way.

Game and Watch - Reduce the knock back of forward smash just a bit. The brawl plus lag on down smash is just to slow... speed up the after lag to make it punishable... not painful. Take out the air effect of up air. Like I mentioned earlier about the whole luck factor..... The 9 hammer should be taken out along with the 1 hammer. The only numbers that should be there is the 6/fire that does 12 damage, 8/ice that does 8 damage and 5/electricly that does 6 damage. I'm also thinking of adding the dark element to one of the numbers like 4.

G and W is fine as he is. I don't know why everyone has to player hate on him. I'm still against removing luck stuff like all this but that's another time.

Squirtle by himself [non tired version] - since damage in the game doesn't wither and stun is longer than usual, Squirtle can easily rack up 50 damage on any character and he also has a good amount of killing moves and the fact he doesn't get tired.... makes him a monster. Squirtle up tilt should do one or two less damage and easier to d.i which I guess put them in the tumble state. Forward air should do 8 damage instead of 10. Back air should do 9 damage instead of 10. down air should do 13 damage instead of 10 if every hit of down air connects. Down smash should do 12 damage instead of 11. The knock back of down throw should be reduce.

Ummmm, no. Squirtle is great but not overpowered.

DDD - THE LUCK FACTOR SHOULD BE ALMOST NON EXISTANT so i want to make the gordo from forward b either taken out or knock back greatly reduce. Down b should have shield cancel properties until a certain time.. then you can't shield cancel it. up throw knock back should be reduce just a little bit.

Read Chibo's comment below

Peach - stitchface and bom-omb should be taken out completely to avoid luck wins. her forward throw should have more knockback.

She won't pull bombs, beam swords, and saturns if you go to the items and set them to none AND turn every single one of them off. This also applies to D3 and capsules. I thought everyone knew this? Agreed on F-throw though

Zelda - her down air in brawl plus, if caught at certain frame freezes you and knocks to the side diagionally down extremely fast. it should go back to being the way it was in regular brawl or make it the opponent freezes and pops up in the air at a set knockback to go into a up air which is fire. her down tilt is really fast with stun/trip properties... that move should be slow down a bit. the up tilt knock back should be tone down a bit or just tone down.

lulz

Ness - Make it that ness down b can be shield cancel or air dodge cancel. his neutral b should either be faster and last longer..... but the knock back is toned down or you have full control of it till it finishes. his down tilt shouldn't trip at all and pushes the opponent away from ness a bit further to avoid infinites in the corner.

Ness is fine though Falco is working on a buff or two to finish him off.

Yoshi - make the down smash hit the opponent diagionally downward like in melee. maybe he should get out his down throw faster to have a combo starter.

lulz

Snake - the knock back of up tilt should be tone down a bit more. make his forward air come out a bit faster and tone down the knock back just a little bit.

Nope, I discussed this. Also, Snake isn't a god anymore. The ability to combo hurt him a lot. He is easy to combo, his recovery is sooo easy to intercept, amongst a few other flaws. Snake is a 'hit it and quit it character' so his tilts need to hit hard and be able to plow through people.

Zero suit samus - zss has speed and power with the ability to stun her opponents making her too good. she should have speed and the ability to stun.... but not so much power. her back air should have less knock back. the forward air should have a bit less knock back. her forward smash should either have a bit more knock back or more knock back. her fully charge shot should go further and be a bit slower.

ZSS is fine. Her b-air is strong so don't get combo'd into it.

Donkey kong - dk up air kills extremely fast even to heavy opponents and the knock back needs to be tone down. also down smash should make the opponent fly more to the side beside dk if dk did the down smash while looking at the opponent instead of upward.

So what if his u-air is strong. So he can't juggle someone 20 times with it like in Melee, it's a new game. I don't even understand why we'd change his D-smash either

FOOTSTOOL CANCEL - When you footstool someone on the floor, you should be able to cancel the hop off the opponent by pressing down which makes you fast fall or cancel the jump animation. The footstool should also cause a bit more lag to the opponent to allow more combos since it's barely done and would encourage players to try to put it to used.

Sounds cool

Grab escape - SMASH always been heavily about grabbing your opponent, throwing them and following up with combos.... but how come no defensive way of getting out of a throw besides..... not getting grab? EVERY FIGHTING GAME has throw escape except this game. When your opponent grabs you and you press the grab button at the same time or just right after, The person that got grab should be able to break out of the throw instantly and both players space away from each other.

Great idea

Power shield reflect - This tech used to be in melee. When a projectile such as Falco and Samus charge shot got powershield, The projectile would go back the direction it came from.... this also made players think twice about spamming projectiles all the time. Now that powershielding is harder to do.... this should be put in and reward players for being accurate with the powershielding.

I'd rather not bring PS reflect back. It would require another nerf to how easy they are to perform and I like how they are much more applicable and useable in Brawl then they were in Melee.

MORE TECHS AND CHARACTER UPDATES COMING SOON

Overall I didn't like many of his character change ideas. Just because so and so has an annoying tactic doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Get better and beat their tactic. His tech ideas were cool though.

 

[CT Chia]

My replies in red

THIS IS STUFF BUM SENT ME, SOME OF IT IS LOLOUTDATED (i.e. ice toe). Interesting read though, post your thoughts.


Port town Aero dive - the cars should do less damage and aloooooot less knock back. when you reach a destination...it should take a little longer before the platform reappears.

I don't believe we can make this stage legal no matter how much amount of work we do to it.

flat zone 2 - The burning building part.... I would want the trampoline just to be a moving platform with no bouncing effect to it. The jungle part, I would want that the chairmen have no damage input or knock back on contact aka they are just background eye candy. The gas station part, I would want it that the two people at the gas station is also there for show... aka they do no damage or knock back. The kitchen part should have the chef either for show or when he throws his food.... it does 2-4 damage instead of 8 damage and very little knock back. Also if you kill the chef, the stage doesn't change automatically.... but the usually time that it should regardless if the chef is there or not. Whenever the stage changes from burning building to whatever other part.... make it that it changes into any part of the stage randomly.... so example... burning building to kitchen to jungle instead of burning building to kitchen back to burning building.

Same as above.

Summit - The stage is slippery, so make it that the whole stage is non slippery. When the stage starts sliding down the ice mountain, the gravity should be normal instead of being floaty. The clouds that are on the top and bottom of the stage should move slower. When the snow bear makes the stage go into the water, make it that it never goes in to deep, forcing the character to swim. The ice block in the middle of the stage should be trim down to the bottom floaty platforms or have the ice block not there to prevent camping. When the stage is sliding down the ice mountain, make it that the ice in the back doesn't drag the opponent fast to prevent quick cheap deaths. The big fish should either not exist or do knock back/damage. Take out that he kills you with one gulp.

Possible, but practically falls into the same category as the last two. It's just not worth it.

Wario - The one min and 30 second fart should not have great knock back. the knock back should be greatly reduce. The knock back of the 2 min fart should have a little more knock back. should the grab release be taken out on Wario?

I heavily disagree, especially being a Wario main in Brawl+. Plus, there is no grab releases on him lol.

Olimar - His tether throw should be slow down since it is a tether throw just like Lucas and Link. I also feel like he has a lot of killing moves in his move set that is hardly punishable. The red pikmin up smash should be tone down as in knock back. The purple pikmin since it's heavy should have bad afterlag whether it hits the opponent, been blocked or dodged. This also applies for the forward smash with the purple pikmin. Throwing the purple pikmin should have knock back and a bit more damage.... but have after lag to it when thrown. Picking up the purple pikmin with neutral b should have more start up lag to it. His up b should have a bit more knock back than regular brawl and his up b with or without the pikmin should make him go higher.

I agree with practically everything here, especially slowing down his throw just a tad. Tweaking some of his specific moves (especially usmash) can help balance him out a lot.

Luigi - He has a lot of killing moves that kill extremely fast. His forward smash should be toned down. since this is meant to be competitive... I'm trying to take out the luck factor in this game so with his forward b, take out the misfire completely. The forward b should also have shield and dodge cancel properties unless after a certain amount of time or it's fully charge. The first jab of the a button should make the person slide slightly away from Luigi instead of popping the opponent up.

I agree with taking out misfire (and any other luck based ailments). With shield cancel does he mean when charging it on the ground you can cancel with shield like Sonic's overB? That's a very good idea, though similar to Sonic's overB, allow it to not be canceled once it's fully charged. Toning down fsmash should help, Luigi does need to be nerfed a little. Fixing the jab also removes the stupidly easy jab upB. In addition, we should do something about dthrow upB. Comboing into upB is awesome, but these two moves (jab and dthrow) are too easy to get off and with minimal practice can always guarantee a ridiculous kill move. Perhaps give dthrow more knockback?

Bowser - He should be a powerhouse that can kill fast and doesn't have much combos from what I seen and know. His down b should do 26 damage instead of 24 if it catches the opponent. Forward smash should probably have super armor properties. Up b should have more knock back.

Fsmash should NOT have super armor after the insane buff we gave it. I don't really see the point in giving an extra 2 damage to someone when you catch someone with down B. 24 damage as it is for a single B move is kinda much as it is lol. 24 and 26 do more than some fully charged smash attacks or Samus' fully charged neutral B if I'm not mistaken. So I guess I disagree with this whole part.

Ganondorf - reverse neutral b should come out as fast as neutral b which is the warlock punch. reverse b and neutral b should have super armor. A couple of people ask that they would like it if ganon gets a jump back after doing down b in the air.... like in melee. In the air or floor.... should ganon forward b go faster and further?? If forward b catches you in the air and when he spikes you to the ground.... should it put you in the ground like when donkey kong does forward b to his opponent?

I disagree with all of this. Ganondorf is freicken ridiculous now and has gotten soooo many buffs. Giving him better recovery, or super armor to one of the best kill moves in the game is just unheard of.

Samus - Samus power missile should come out instantly, like when it's done next to the floor like her homing missile tether attack should probably come out faster or end faster in the air. should down b explode on impact or blow up faster?

Super missile should come out faster, but not instant lol. Don't change tether attack, it's pretty awesome as is. I think downB should explode on contact if possible like in Melee.

Metaknight - Even though this character has gotten toned down. He is still too good cause of stun being put in. If he does the long tornado instead of the short... he should have more after lag to it so it can be punishable. The up b knockback should be toned down a bit more.... cause it still kills real fast. Down aerial should pop the opponent up in the air instead of sliding them downward. Down b should go a bit further and when it hits... should have a bit more knock back.

I doubt Bum knows all of the recent MK nerfs we just put in... I disagree with all of this. MK is pretty awesome and a lot more balanced now with the latest nerfs. No need to make him any worse.

Game and Watch - Reduce the knock back of forward smash just a bit. The brawl plus lag on down smash is just to slow... speed up the after lag to make it punishable... not painful. Take out the air effect of up air. Like I mentioned earlier about the whole luck factor..... The 9 hammer should be taken out along with the 1 hammer. The only numbers that should be there is the 6/fire that does 12 damage, 8/ice that does 8 damage and 5/electricly that does 6 damage. I'm also thinking of adding the dark element to one of the numbers like 4.

I pretty much agree with this. I don't think we need to specifically tweak each of the over B numbers though, they seem fine as is. I do want luck removed, as I think a instant kill on 9 is a bit much, and hurting yourself on 1 sucks. Change it to like a 1 hammer is just a 1 damage attack, and 9 could have a dark element that does like 20 damage and mediocre knockback, so it's one of the best hammers to get, but not practically ohko.

Squirtle by himself [non tired version] - since damage in the game doesn't wither and stun is longer than usual, Squirtle can easily rack up 50 damage on any character and he also has a good amount of killing moves and the fact he doesn't get tired.... makes him a monster. Squirtle up tilt should do one or two less damage and easier to d.i which I guess put them in the tumble state. Forward air should do 8 damage instead of 10. Back air should do 9 damage instead of 10. down air should do 13 damage instead of 10 if every hit of down air connects. Down smash should do 12 damage instead of 11. The knock back of down throw should be reduce.

Dthrow knockback should be toned down just a tad. As for damage changes, I disagree and instead we just need a damage staleing code.

DDD - THE LUCK FACTOR SHOULD BE ALMOST NON EXISTANT so i want to make the gordo from forward b either taken out or knock back greatly reduce. Down b should have shield cancel properties until a certain time.. then you can't shield cancel it. up throw knock back should be reduce just a little bit.

There were so many awesome changes that were suggested back in the DDD thread in the workshop. Pretty much, make overB faster, allow 3 minions, don't throw them with the A button, and take out gordo and fix the dee-doo ratio to compensate. I remember some suggested ratios in the thread, look in the DDD thread here in the WBR character area.

Peach - stitchface and bom-omb should be taken out completely to avoid luck wins. her forward throw should have more knockback.

Take out stitch, bob-omb, AND beam sword. Maybe on mr. saturn. It just seems so out of place, especially if we took out the othe non-turnip items.

Zelda - her down air in brawl plus, if caught at certain frame freezes you and knocks to the side diagionally down extremely fast. it should go back to being the way it was in regular brawl or make it the opponent freezes and pops up in the air at a set knockback to go into a up air which is fire. her down tilt is really fast with stun/trip properties... that move should be slow down a bit. the up tilt knock back should be tone down a bit or just tone down.

Lol

Ness - Make it that ness down b can be shield cancel or air dodge cancel. his neutral b should either be faster and last longer..... but the knock back is toned down or you have full control of it till it finishes. his down tilt shouldn't trip at all and pushes the opponent away from ness a bit further to avoid infinites in the corner.

I disagree with all of this, afterall we already fixed the dtilt.

Yoshi - make the down smash hit the opponent diagionally downward like in melee. maybe he should get out his down throw faster to have a combo starter.

Seems like an ok idea

Snake - the knock back of up tilt should be tone down a bit more. make his forward air come out a bit faster and tone down the knock back just a little bit.

Seems good

Zero suit samus - zss has speed and power with the ability to stun her opponents making her too good. she should have speed and the ability to stun.... but not so much power. her back air should have less knock back. the forward air should have a bit less knock back. her forward smash should either have a bit more knock back or more knock back. her fully charge shot should go further and be a bit slower.

Agreed

Donkey kong - dk up air kills extremely fast even to heavy opponents and the knock back needs to be tone down. also down smash should make the opponent fly more to the side beside dk if dk did the down smash while looking at the opponent instead of upward.

Agreed

FOOTSTOOL CANCEL - When you footstool someone on the floor, you should be able to cancel the hop off the opponent by pressing down which makes you fast fall or cancel the jump animation. The footstool should also cause a bit more lag to the opponent to allow more combos since it's barely done and would encourage players to try to put it to used.

I disagree, there were already some footstool infinites in Brawl if done right, and if you could completely cancel that jump and do other stuff sooner could make new infinites

Grab escape - SMASH always been heavily about grabbing your opponent, throwing them and following up with combos.... but how come no defensive way of getting out of a throw besides..... not getting grab? EVERY FIGHTING GAME has throw escape except this game. When your opponent grabs you and you press the grab button at the same time or just right after, The person that got grab should be able to break out of the throw instantly and both players space away from each other.

I agree with this IF
-We make the window fairly small, like a 2 frame window to input the escape button (the grab button)
-If you are grabbed, it's slightly harder to break out of grabs, so you can't escape so fast. This way it's a bit more balanced, you could take more damage (from grab attacks) if you get grabbed in exchange for being able to break out immediately.
This is a rly cool idea

Power shield reflect - This tech used to be in melee. When a projectile such as Falco and Samus charge shot got powershield, The projectile would go back the direction it came from.... this also made players think twice about spamming projectiles all the time. Now that powershielding is harder to do.... this should be put in and reward players for being accurate with the powershielding.

I disagree, I really disliked this in Melee. It made no sense for everyone to have a reflector essentially, even if it was hard to do.


MORE TECHS AND CHARACTER UPDATES COMING SOON

 

[Team Giza]

I don't see why everyone thinks Port town is either impossible to fix or shouldn't be. I think we should definitely due are best to make it a decent counterpick stage.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't see why everyone thinks Port town is either impossible to fix or shouldn't be. I think we should definitely due are best to make it a decent counterpick stage.

Chibo had a great post on why we shouldn't be adding many CPs. Hopefully he sees this and will dig it up or write it again.

 

[kupo15]

But isnt port town banned?

 

[Alopex]

I don't like nerfing things from vBrawl. The only "nerfs" I support are fixes to things we broke through the introduction of a mechanic.

Bum is FAR too nerf heavy for my liking. I want to make others stronger and more fun, not others weaker and less fun.

Blizzard balances WoW through nerfs instead of buffs. That's why WoW sucks. Yeah, I went there, britches.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't like nerfing things from vBrawl. The only "nerfs" I support are fixes to things we broke through the introduction of a mechanic.

Bum is FAR too nerf heavy for my liking. I want to make others stronger and more fun, not others weaker and less fun.

Blizzard balances WoW through nerfs instead of buffs. That's why WoW sucks. Yeah, I went there, britches.

Hahaha

It's true Blizz nerfs too much instead of buffing the other classes.


QK: I just wanted to chime in here and say: L2Play <3

 

[leafgreen386]

Port Town - see: mute city. If the cars weren't so stupid, it'd be a great CP. Personally, I want to remove them entirely, but just meganerfing their damage will do (since nerfing damage will also nerf their growth rate, which is what lets them kill so easily).

Flat Zone 2 - Tell him to try this stage out frozen. If it's not legal frozen, it won't ever be legal.

Summit - Hopeless, imo.

Footstool thing - Meh. Not the change I'd be going for if I was gonna change footstools. I definitely liked kupo's thing where it replaced the footstool with a dj.

Grab break - You can already do this by spamming buttons if your opponent decides to pummel you or just plain don't throw right away. If they throw immediately, oh well. You're gonna get thrown. We shouldn't remove reliable grab setups. You got the grab. It's yours to use.

PS Reflect - Maybe. I'd be interested in trying it at the least.

No comment on the character changes for now. I might go back and reply to those later. I disagree with the large majority of them, though.

 

[kupo15]

Blizzard balances WoW through nerfs instead of buffs. That's why WoW sucks. Yeah, I went there, britches.

I've always hated Wow even though I never played it.

 

[CT Chia]

as for the grab break thing which leafgreen said is sort of already possible, its not rly the same. this would be instantly breaking out. plus you could do a thing liek if a grab break is done, the character that did the grab which got broken could be in some sort of lag (make the animation of them releasing the character like 3x longer - only in the case of a grab break, not just a regular release). this way it gives the person who successfully peformed the grab break a chance to get a quick attack in and possibly start a combo.

good point GoG, i remember that post. id rather not rewrite it cause i nailed it last time lol, and i might miss a point or two. il start searching for it and see if i can find it

 

[leafgreen386]

I know it's different. I'm saying that if your opponent got a grab they should get the reward of getting a grab. If they choose to screw around when they get that grab, then sure, you can get out. If they throw right away, then that's fine, too. Grabs are important because they are a key combo setup, and they aren't that easy to land. Just... don't get grabbed. The same way your way to defend against attacks is... don't get hit. You can still spotdodge grabs and punish them, the same as any other move in the game.

 

[CT Chia]

here is the post i believe GoG was talking about:

In reply to leafgreen on pg 1 saying we should strive to make as many legal stages as possible:

NOOOOOOOOOOO

The reason being: by somehow creating so many different stages we end up with two problems:

Too many neutral stages: The Smash community has evolved to liking the stage strike system for the first match. Currently vBrawl is at 5 stages (or 9 according to the SBR), and most B+ lists are at 7. Those are ok numbers for remembering who strikes which stage (though 9 is starting to push it, and I don't want to visit the stage select screen everytime just to keep track, too much time) so with all of these new stages, Hyrule Temple, New Pork, all these Castle Siege transformations, Spear Pillar, you're adding TONS of neutrals. We can't do stage striking with like 17 stages. It's just not feasible. Not to mention it's boring since so many of the stages will end up being similar and people might argue with boundary problems that we have control over.

Banning Counterpicks Won't Make Sense Anymore: People have a ban in a tourney set to take out a level that hurts them the most or that they don't like. But with like 80,000 legal stages, even if the player bans a stage they don't like, there will be a greater chance that there will be another legal stage that is just like the stage they banned, making their ban worthless.

to leafgreen - then maybe make it one frame? (though i still think 2 wouldnt be bad) it would take actual skill and timing to break out of this grab (thought: would it be possible to make the timing uneffected by buffer so ppl with high buffer can't do it easier?). Grabs are fairly overpowered in this game. There are tons that are guaranteed kills at decent percents (like Squirtles down throw), or lead into guaranteed combos, chain grabs, or guaranteed kill moves (Wario comes to mind). keeping the person who got grabbed on their feet with good timing could help put them in a better situation and avoid death by skill (not by luck as in a gordo, misfire, etc)

 

[leafgreen386]

The game needs guaranteed death combos. If they were escapable, a lot of the fear associated with them would be lost, and their value would be greatly depreciated, especially if the opponent getting out put you at a disadvantage. Why should you be punished for getting the grab? Because that's what this does. Guaranteed kill setups are healthy for the game because they encourage approaching. If someone has the choice of sitting back and zoning with aerials or going in for a grab, where you would need three aerials to finish your opponent or one grab, but the grab was escapable and even punishable for landing it, they will almost always go for the safer option of zoning aerials until they can get the kill. It's not worth the risk for the reward it gives. Given the difficulty in getting off a grab against a good player, it should be well-rewarded, which atm, it is. If we were to put in some form of grab break, however, besides what is already implemented, then we could offset the risk/reward of the grab and make it a much much much less desirable option. Even if it was reset to completely neutral after the grab break, grabbing would still often not be worth the risk, since you first risk getting punished for your grab attempt when you first go for the grab, and which they could easily just break out of anyway, completely nullifying your hard work.

 

[CT Chia]

I disagree, guaranteed death combos are not good. Chances at them are. The opponent should still have the option to DI to escape in some situations. It depends on the skill of both players. The skill of the defending player to DI then counteract appropriately, and the skill of the attacker to follow up combos and read the defenders DI appropriately. Grabs are not as hard as you make them out to be... Many moves can combo into grab, and with the inclusion of shield stun, some aerials on a shield lead into guaranteed grabs.

 

[Team Giza]

I still don't think the counterpicking problem would come up when adding a few more stages that are very unique. I don't see any trouble in making a stage like Port Town a counterpick.

 

[leafgreen386]

I disagree, guaranteed death combos are not good. Chances at them are. The opponent should still have the option to DI to escape in some situations. It depends on the skill of both players. The skill of the defending player to DI then counteract appropriately, and the skill of the attacker to follow up combos and read the defenders DI appropriately. Grabs are not as hard as you make them out to be... Many moves can combo into grab, and with the inclusion of shield stun, some aerials on a shield lead into guaranteed grabs.

If there are still aerials on shield that lead into guaranteed grabs, then they need to be fixed. We haven't had that problem since the s-cancel days, and if we're having it now, it needs to be addressed.

If you combo into a grab at a high percent, then you worked for it. You deserve that grab. You deserve to get a reward off of it. If at that percent it happens to lead into a guaranteed death combo, then you deserve that kill. Having short two hit guaranteed combos are very healthy for the game, just as much at the higher percents as at the lower percents. You should be able to DI to make it harder for your opponent to combo you, but they should be able to read your DI and nail you after it.

Also, "guaranteed death combos are not good. Chances at them are?" What the frick? A guaranteed death combo is a guaranteed death combo. No exceptions. Because if there were, then it wouldn't be guaranteed. A character having a guaranteed death combo from a grab inherently gives them a "chance" at landing one if the opponent ever gets at the right percent range for the combo to work. They still have to set up for the combo however and land the grab.

Smash would suck if there weren't any guaranteed combos at a large range of percents.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually Chibo, NO aerials lead into guranteed grabs on block, and only a few projectiles are able to lead into them (Samus's power missle, Zamus's stun gun, Fireballs...Maybe Shiek's aerial needles?). There are many aerials that are safe on block where if both players attempt a grab the attacker's grab will come out first, but none have enough shieldstun to keep the opponent trapped for a full 7 frames after the attacker's lag is over. And the moves that combo into grabs on hit do not do so at high percentages (well, most of them anyway. You have some like Falco's lasers, but Falco's throws are terrible). Being able to land guranteed hits after the grab is the entire apeal of the grab. They do not do enough damage individually to warrent use otherwise (many times using an attack would do more damage and also be a better combo setup), and if grabs are weak that means shielding will become the prevailant defense, for which attacks have little answer for (the answer is to obviously grab, but if grabs are terrible then what's the point?) There are three main uses for grabs in any fighting game.

1. Combo setup-these grabs often lead into one guranteed hit that differs based on the opponent's DI, the goal of this grab is to put them in a certain position to make them easier to combo or directly land a kill move. Mitigating the effects of this throw is by DIing the throw and subsequent hits to minimize the damage done by the combo, as after a few hits the opponent will be unable to follow up and will lose their positioning advantage.
2. Tech chase-these grabs are used to force the opponent into a guessing game in which they're at a disadvantage the entire time. These types of throws will often loop back into each other on some responses, and lead into combos on others. A "pick your poison" kind of throw. Most commonly the player will still have a positioning advantage at the end of the tech chase even if they didn't quite make it in time to punish you. The way to minimize the damage from this kind of throw is to simply throw your opponent off with an unexpected response (teching a different way, not teching, DIing in a misleading direction, ect)
3.Raw power-these throws are obviously used for either killing power or to rack on a lot of damage. Simple enough, but also the most boring kinds of throws as they're pretty much fool proof. So unless we make every throw function like this (or make them do ridiculous damage or something), then most of the grabs would be useless without guranteed followups

So for many throws, the throw itself is not the goal, but rather what comes after the throw. This gives the throw itself more power (as it's essentially what lead into the rest of it), while still keeping it interesting to watch. Without powerful throws, shielding would be the predominant strategy as it would have no solid counter. A vital part of what makes throws so worthwhile is that they are guranteed to lead into something else as your reward to getting the grab. Most grabs take 7 or 8 frames, which is hardly fast when compared to most combo starters. They also have considerably more lag. In games like guilty gear or others that have grab escapes, either grabs come out in 1 frame and have priority over all other attacks, take out a considerable amount of health or kill you by ring out (soul calibur), or set you back on the ground for another wake up mixup (SF, Tekken, ect.) Not to mention that defensive options are typically weaker in those games to the point that blocking is your only real defense against anything, and even blocking is beaten by mixing up low and overhead attacks, so the grab escape is needed to keep blocking as a viable strategy. Defense is much more powerful in smash than any other fighter, and offense should be powerful as well to keep it in check.


I also agree with Leaf that guranteed kill setups are healthy for a game. If you can DI out of the kill setup 100% consistantly, then it is not a kill setup and as such you should never take the risk of using it. However, if it IS guranteed then the risk is worth it and thus you have more incentive to approach.

I agree that there shouldn't be an entire slew of guranteed kill setups at every percentage, but each character should have SOMETHING to fall back on when their opponent is just playing extremely defensively and is at a really high percentage. Whether it be a quick kill move or another quick move that combos into a kill move, they have to have something that can keep the opponent from living too long (unless you want matches to last as long as vbrawl because both players are afraid to throw out any strong attacks for fear that they'll die)

 

[CT Chia]

Actually Chibo, NO aerials lead into guranteed grabs on block

Wario's fair

 

[leafgreen386]

Wario's fair

I like the way he writes this big long post and "wario's fair" is all you can say in return. You basically just ignored both of our posts. >_>

And if wario's fair is a guaranteed grab on block... then we need to fix that. Plain and simple.

 

[CT Chia]

i just didnt have time to address the other points, sry lol. i will when i have a chance. im doing a bunch of stuff right now.

why would that need to be changed? if u powershield it your not guaranteed the grab. you also have to have quick timing. im also still testing it on all characters. i think there might be a couple characters that it doesnt work on.

 

[Alopex]

I also agree with Leaf that guranteed kill setups are healthy for a game. If you can DI out of the kill setup 100% consistantly, then it is not a kill setup and as such you should never take the risk of using it. However, if it IS guranteed then the risk is worth it and thus you have more incentive to approach.

I don't recall Melee having guaranteed death setups at all ever. Everything could be stopped with proper DI.

Also, I was under the impression that the reason you approached and combo'd was for damage. What, that's not enough incentive now? The ONLY incentive is guaranteed death of the opponent? THAT is not healthy for a game.

 

[leafgreen386]

Guaranteed kill setups didn't exist in melee what?

Falcon uthrow -> knee
Sheik dthrow -> fair
Fox uthrow -> bair/second hit uair

That's just throw setups from some of the top characters. Guaranteed kill setups exist, regardless of DI, and it's a good thing they do. You don't combo someone at a high percent to damage them. You combo them at a high percent to kill them.

 

[CT Chia]

the falcon and fox tactics u mentioned can be DI'd to avoid
the sheik one can sometimes, not all the time though

by guaranteed kill setup i didnt think u mean a 2 hit combo, i thought u meant a longer string of attacks starting from a lower percent. a throw for a kill or a throw to aerial to kill isnt a big problem. most as it is can be DI'd, its a good balance. but i still like the idea of grab escape to balance even furhter.
plus, adding a whole new technique seems so inviting. it could rly help seperate this from brawl and get some fresh new ideas in this. and, its another techincal aspect

 

[leafgreen386]

the falcon and fox tactics u mentioned can be DI'd to avoid
the sheik one can sometimes, not all the time though

by guaranteed kill setup i didnt think u mean a 2 hit combo, i thought u meant a longer string of attacks starting from a lower percent. a throw for a kill or a throw to aerial to kill isnt a big problem. most as it is can be DI'd, its a good balance. but i still like the idea of grab escape to balance even furhter.
plus, adding a whole new technique seems so inviting. it could rly help seperate this from brawl and get some fresh new ideas in this. and, its another techincal aspect

It wouldn't balance grabs at all. In fact, it would trash whatever balance grabs may have had. New techniques are great... until they begin tearing apart everything else in the game.

And no, the falcon and fox setups are not DIable. At certain percentages, falcon is guaranteed a uthrow -> knee. Regardless of DI, a foe cannot escape fox uthrow -> bair, and a fox who can time his uair to only land the second hit can also perform uthrow -> uair. Same deal with sheik's dthrow -> fair.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't recall Melee having guaranteed death setups at all ever. Everything could be stopped with proper DI.

Also, I was under the impression that the reason you approached and combo'd was for damage. What, that's not enough incentive now? The ONLY incentive is guaranteed death of the opponent? THAT is not healthy for a game.

All kill grabs can be considered guranteed death setups (so Peach's f-throw, Mewtwo's upthrow, Ness's b-throw, ect.). Ice Climber's had guranteed kill setups, but they're Ice Climbers. Many characters had projectile->smash combos (Doctor Mario is a prime example), Fox had waveshine->upsmash (or grab, which would lead to upthrow uair), Falcon had many Knee combos that were inescapable even with DI, Jigglypuff's WoP was guranteed death at certain percentages (because DIing to escape the WoP meant you'd be too far out to recover anyway), Marth's fair->f-smash (no you could not DI out of this if he did it right), the Ken combo at certain percentages, Falco's aerial shine->bair. Ganon's d-throw to aerial on floaties(the aerial used depends on their DI, but he can kill them regardless), Link's d-throw to up B on midweights and fast fallers at high percents, ect, ect.

Most characters had something that could lead into a kill move at high percentages. Those that didn't were bad characters. That is what we mean by guranteed kill setups. Some moderately safe move that if landed can combo into a kill move at high percentages. This kind of 2 hit combo is quite common and is healthy for a fighting game because it helps to make the matches not only run a little faster, but also gives incentive to approach even when you yourself are close to death. Having a few semi-reilable options to fall back on encourages playing offensively (since there's less risk). If a player left themselves open to a grab, then they deserve to be grabbed and deserve to be put in the bad situations that result from that grab. If a grab is OP we nerf it individually, but there are plenty of grabs that are perfectly balanced that would become bad because of this code (why take the risk of the opponent instantly breaking out when there's very little to be gained anyway?)

@Chibo, Falcon can upthrow knee Marth at 70-95% regardless of DI and it will kill him even with DI on smaller stages (and even moderate ones when done near the upper boundary of that percentage range). This applied to every character at some percentage range.

Fox can also upthrow uair and land only the second hit as leaf mentioned, you just have to be at a higher percentage so that you're still in hitstun long enough to get hit by only the second hit.

 

[Alopex]

Like Chibo, I also thought you meant long chains that end in death invariably. 2-hit kill combos or the like are fine. There were plenty of those (and, obviously a lot more) in 64 and they are pretty essential. My 64 Ness would never kill without Dair > Uair death setups. Throwing them notwithstanding, that is... ;D

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oh...people should stop assuming we mean long combos lol. To me, guranteed kill setup means 1-2 hits and then a kill move. Most things longer than that stop being guranteed because your opponent can mixup their DI on various hits to prevent you from landing the finisher.

I normally use the term "death combos" when I want to refer to long drawn out chains. But meh, I shouldn't expect you guys to read my termiology just like that lol

 

[Alopex]

Most things longer than that stop being guranteed because your opponent can mixup their DI on various hits to prevent you from landing the finisher.

Which is precisely what I was referring to, heh.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So anyway, I'm against grab escapes under the premise that if the opponent left themselves open for a grab then I should get the grab. You have plenty of defensive options for avoiding grabs and should not be grabbed so often that you'd need a grab escape. Long chaingrabs should simply be fixed indivicually rather than introducing a blanket mechanic. I would like it to be made easier to escape grabs that are done slowly however (if they chose to hold me and pummel me, then I might as well escape right?)

 

[CT Chia]

It wouldn't balance grabs at all. In fact, it would trash whatever balance grabs may have had. New techniques are great... until they begin tearing apart everything else in the game.

And no, the falcon and fox setups are not DIable. At certain percentages, falcon is guaranteed a uthrow -> knee. Regardless of DI, a foe cannot escape fox uthrow -> bair, and a fox who can time his uair to only land the second hit can also perform uthrow -> uair. Same deal with sheik's dthrow -> fair.

i didnt know if you meant all characters or not. i main samus in melee and with proper DI fox can never get uthrow - uair (second hit, the strong one) on samus (except maybe at insanely low percents, which its not worth it. i cant remember off the top of my mind, but i know that after 50 or so, aka when it starts to get useful, you can't land it if the samus DI's)

but this discussion doesnt matter, a few of us all thought u guys meant long death combos

still unsure about grab escapes. what if we just made a code for it, set it to 1 or 2 frames, and tested it within the wbr only without letting anyone know (and if u practice with someone make em promise not to tell anyone). if it makes grabs useless, scrap it right away, though if we see potential, who knows. it might be worth a testing, i wouldnt think it would be that hard of a code to make

 

[leafgreen386]

still unsure about grab escapes. what if we just made a code for it, set it to 1 or 2 frames, and tested it within the wbr only without letting anyone know (and if u practice with someone make em promise not to tell anyone). if it makes grabs useless, scrap it right away, though if we see potential, who knows. it might be worth a testing, i wouldnt think it would be that hard of a code to make

No. I am against the very concept, itself. It isn't worth testing since it has a predictable effect on the game which ultimately a negative effect. It would be a waste of the coder's time, a waste of our time, and wouldn't serve to actually get anything done that we want it to.

 

[kupo15]

I don't like the concept of the tech either. And IF we were to test it, it definitely does not have any priority over the other essential things we need to implement. I decided to make a list in the kish's unused thread to stay organized