Building a true successor to Melee

[Kadano]

Some of you might know me for my Melee frame data contributions here. But that is not the topic of this thread – here, I want to hear your thoughts on the idea of a fighting game modeled after Melee.

There was one such attempt in the past, “Air Dash Online”, which was promoted by Mew2king. However, it seems development has ceased completely.
To be honest, this didn’t really surprise me. The character design seemed uninspiring and I wasn’t sure what exactly they wanted to create. (No offense to its developers; this is just my honest impression.)

I think the most important factor that leads to success in things like this is the power of one’s vision. The vision I have for a new game is much more than simply recreating Melee with better graphics and more content.

Basically, every video game I played so far felt somewhat lacking to me. There were so many concepts I imagined that would add a lot to the gameplay’s value. There is no game I’ve played that I would rate more than 8/10. My goal is to create a game that I would rate 10/10.

The fighting part of the game will comprise of three different modes: 2D (like in Melee), 3D and turn-based (simillar to Grandia 2).
Additionally, there will be three different character movesets: canon, balanced and mixed. Canon would include all the overpowered moves that characters have in their original universe, balanced would have all of those nerfed to Melee-like levels and mixed would have the characters start a fight in their balanced form, with the option of (partly) increasing to their canon strength by fulfilling certain achievements.

I want to implement a 3D or 4D exploration mode, similar to MMORPGs, with a huge world and lots of secrets to be discovered. By “4D”, I refer to time-travel, similar to how it’s done in Chrono Trigger.
During the exploration mode, engaging in fights is possible as well of course, and it will be possible to switch from one fighting mode to another mid-fight.

I’m not sure for what platform and canon setting I want to do this for, but right now I’m inclined towards Wii U and a crossover between Nintendo and Anime, with Kill la Kill being the universe that I feel would work best. Also, the creators of Kill la Kill have expressed in an interview that they are interested in having a fighting game based on the series and hope that game developers approach them about it.

Considering how it takes several years for a game production studio to finish a great game, and that I’ll most likely be the only person working on this, I’m well aware of the fact that I’ll probably abandon this project after a few months when the huge amount of workload seems like an insurmountable task. However, as far as I know Sakurai worked on Melee’s gameplay almost single-handedly for 18 months. I believe that if I find one or two other people who are motivated and capable to do this, it’s possible to do this within two years or less. I’m currently NEET and can afford to spend at least two years doing so, so I can work 14 hours per day on this during this period.

Now, this is not quite an announcement. I’m not yet sure whether I really want to get started with this. But I do know that I have enough ideas / creativity to make a great game.
Is there someone among you who has been having similar thoughts and ideas? @Magus420 @standardtoaster @Strong Bad

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

This is not the section to be discussing game development I feel unless the object was to some how talk about melee more in-depth in regards to this topic. But, let us see where it goes for the time being.

After a preliminary search this is what I found.

https://wiiu-developers.nintendo.com/

My first guess would be to start here. Research is this a legit way to get into development for the WiiU. Then, once you start getting further you will have more stuff to research and learn. It will be a long road.

 

[κomıc]

I suggest getting concepts and art on paper before you undertake this. Development kits are extremely expensive and it sounds like the game you want to make is too ambitious for right now. Getting people together (programmers, artists) is a great start and putting something together first to show everyone should ignite interest if you put it out there right.

 

[Acryte]

UDK or if it's a lighter type of deal you can mess around in construct 2. I started making my own fighting game in construct a while back and it looked pretty ****ing awesome, but at some point I needed help from others and felt my efforts were being wasted because my cohorts weren't providing what I needed from them.

Also, I love Grandia II but how would you plan to develop an intuitive fighter using this structure? I'm down to discuss all this as my cousin works for sony doing concept art for video games and wants to eventually set up an indie gaming company and one of the planned projects is to make a sick fighter.

I'm assuming UDK is the best investment. If you want to talk mechanics hit me up on the PMs because I too look to develop a unique fighting game.

 

[Bones0]

Sakurai pretty much went insane from creating Melee. The essence of your very soul would probably be torn at the seams should you attempt to take competitive gaming any further than the pinnacle that is Melee. Or even worse, you'll end up with something like Project: M.

 

[MookieRah]

I first just gotta say that what you are wanting is way too expansive. You either have a fighting game, or an exploration game. To do both somehow within the same engine would take a lot of time as you are essentially creating two different games in the same game. Your best bet is just to make one or the other, and focus all of your efforts into that. If you manage to complete this, then you can start production on a spin-off that features the other aspects (either the fighting game part or the exploration part).

I'm not doing this to be a dream crusher, I'm just saying that these hybrid games end up being mediocre at both things they attempt because you have to make compromises at some point.

 

[DRGN]

I think it sounds pretty cool. Definitely a big undertaking though. What programming languages do you know? Are you decent at basic artwork? Not considering for a final design, but placeholder artwork at least can go a long way on making the game easier to develop, envision, and promote. Plus it makes things a bit easier for another professional artist (if you got one) to relate to, and build off of, what you have in mind.

But I think it can be done. Have you ever heard of a game called Cave Story? It was entirely [aside from various language translations] developed and produced by one man. And many call the game a masterpiece.

As for the concept of trying to create a 'hybrid' game: I say go for it, even if it may be a little tougher. If nothing else, maybe you could at least try a very basic working model to test out the core concepts. If you have a vision that you think makes sense and will work, and the heaps of interest necessary to drive you, then I think it is worth a shot. Others trying, but not quite hitting the mark, is certainly not a reason to not try for something. But it shouldn't even really be a deterrent either in terms of trying to innovate and build the idea. Melee's percent based system and "island stage" environments are great examples of how changing up the 'norms' within one particular 'type' of game can work very well. Similarly, I think taking two 'types' and combining them by blurring or removing the lines is innovation that could have the same payoff. And anyway, what is the difference between that and instead creating one new type? There's certainly nothing wrong with that! Historically, we had to have done that multiple times already, or else we wouldn't have the multiple different types we have today, right? In that sense, what sub-games could fighting games be said to be composed of? I.e. what is the evolution of the fighting game type or what was the closest thing before them? The same could be asked of world exploration types. Perhaps by looking at the elements these game types are composed of, and of course thinking about what makes those fun (is it the individual parts? the whole? a bit of both?), it could be clearer how to best take them apart and combine them to work together fluidly.

 

[Vizc]

I'd be happy for any new developer making any game who has the full intent of making a 'good game'.

Onto being skeptical.

I used to love the idea of adding elements of different games, but with each addition comes a group of people who will find the new addition tedious, annoying, stupid and/or frustrating. That isn't to say it's wrong to experiment, just question whether content was added or it's just to drag the game out. I would argue that some of what makes fighting games in general appealing is how to the point they are.

I see no reason to call it a successor to Melee if it's core is to be moved or shifted out of focus. If you're after the IPs, that's what Brawl and 4 are for, regardless of how highly or lowly you think of them. As for the other stuff you'd want, there are other games, the first thing in my mind at '3D smash" would have to be Power Stone 1/2.

IPs have no bearing on how a game plays.

 

[MookieRah]

But I think it can be done. Have you ever heard of a game called Cave Story? It was entirely [aside from various language translations] developed and produced by one man. And many call the game a masterpiece.

It was also a simple side-scroller with simple (but beautiful!) graphics. An AMAZING game, but a simple game.

I see no reason to call it a successor to Melee if it's core is to be moved or shifted out of focus.

I agree with this. It seems you want to create something akin to a spiritual successor of melee but then you have the addition of several entirely different game mode. I don't really see that as being cohesive, and honestly it would be really difficult to develop just a game like that.

To be honest, this didn’t really surprise me. The character design seemed uninspiring and I wasn’t sure what exactly they wanted to create. (No offense to its developers; this is just my honest impression.)

I kinda felt this way too, but it was VERY early in development so it's hard to say how it would have turned out if things went better for them. From just seeing a few videos, I felt that the features that they added would not really make the game "better" than melee, and I think they lost the melee audience due to them trying to throw elements from too many different sources, and the melee scene didn't actually want a game that deviated that much. In the end, they tried to mix and match too much and they lost their demographic.

The fighting part of the game will comprise of three different modes: 2D (like in Melee), 3D and turn-based (simillar to Grandia 2).

I want to implement a 3D or 4D exploration mode, similar to MMORPGs, with a huge world and lots of secrets to be discovered. By “4D”, I refer to time-travel, similar to how it’s done in Chrono Trigger.

Your criticism for Air Dash Online is that the developers seemed to lack vision, but what you are proposing here is a game that is essentially 4 different games. In terms of cohesive visions, ADO is far more cohesive as they just wanted to produce a mock 2D fighter. Your vision is just so large and encompasses so many different things that you would not garner the support that it would ever need to take off, because not everyone wants every mode you are offering, and very few actually want a game that is all 4.

There is just no need to make one game that is everything you ever want out of gaming. You are far, far better off in just sticking with one thing and making the best damn game out of that one element, and then producing a new game. Hell, there is nothing to say that you can't make 4 games that exist within the same world/universe with inter-tangled plot lines.

 

[Vizc]

It was also a simple side-scroller with simple (but beautiful!) graphics. An AMAZING game, but a simple game.

There is just no need to make one game that is everything you ever want out of gaming.You are far, far better off in just sticking with one thing and making the best damn game out of that one element, and then producing a new game

Glad someone said these, I tried to weasel it in my post, but then deleted and forgot, but here are some videos I wanted to accompany those points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM&feature=youtu.be&t=6m24s
http://youtu.be/SEIyN5Lubsc?t=10m10s

 

[EddyBearr]

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island is very reminiscent of Melee in it's mechanic abuses and countless resets or time-saving tricks.

It seems to me that there's a sort of apathy in intentional perfection of game design (so many physics abuses, accidental mechanical resets) and a sort of content-squishing trend in these highly dynamic, skill-oriented, and competitive games.

I think it was mango who said, paraphrased, that you can't recreate melee because melee was an accident.


If you were to recreate a game similar to melee but not copying it (just following a similar path,) you'd probably have to get lucky (look at design tendencies, not what was designed, but what kind of approach was made while designing melee or SMW2:YI, as we know they were finding their own shortcomings in testing.) If you were to recreate melee-inspired game (a la project M) you'd wanna look at what specific approaches were made in melee or SMW2:YI and just copy the framework.

 

[Pengie]

Melee already has a true successor and it is called Melty Blood: Actress Again Current Code.

 

[MookieRah]

I think it was mango who said, paraphrased, that you can't recreate melee because melee was an accident.

Except that most of what makes melee, melee was actually intentional. Yeah, wave dashing was probably not something they thought would be a big deal, or many other relatively small design decisions (I'm sure they didn't think how shield dropping would be a thing, but I guarantee you it was coded that way intentionally), but 99% of melee was intentional game design. If you removed the unintentional design, melee would still be an amazing game. I'm sure Kadano could give you a ton of reasons/evidence as to why Melee isn't as much of an accident as people commonly believe.

 

[Bones0]

Except that most of what makes melee, melee was actually intentional. Yeah, wave dashing was probably not something they thought would be a big deal, or many other relatively small design decisions (I'm sure they didn't think how shield dropping would be a thing, but I guarantee you it was coded that way intentionally), but 99% of melee was intentional game design. If you removed the unintentional design, melee would still be an amazing game. I'm sure Kadano could give you a ton of reasons/evidence as to why Melee isn't as much of an accident as people commonly believe.

To add to this, I think it's pretty clear that all of the mechanics that WERE intentional (knockback, hitstun, DI, hitboxes, dodges, teching, lag, shielding, etc.) are all executed spectacularly. It's hard to name any aspect of Melee that doesn't really have a role or vastly exceeds the role given by the devs in the first place. The closest thing to this, in my mind, is CCing because of how much it changes fighting a grounded opponent. With that said, it's far from unbalanced as any notable amount of percent starts to negate CCing for even the weakest moves and opponents are able to space attacks, time attacks, shield, or grab to get around a CCing opponent. There's also drawbacks like taking damage even for properly executed CCCs or awful DI for CCing a strong move.

 

[EddyBearr]

Except that most of what makes melee, melee was actually intentional. Yeah, wave dashing was probably not something they thought would be a big deal, or many other relatively small design decisions (I'm sure they didn't think how shield dropping would be a thing, but I guarantee you it was coded that way intentionally), but 99% of melee was intentional game design. If you removed the unintentional design, melee would still be an amazing game. I'm sure Kadano could give you a ton of reasons/evidence as to why Melee isn't as much of an accident as people commonly believe.

The biggest thing that makes melee so competitive would probably be the high levels of mobility. Most of the high mobility was unintentional (if known by developers, they took an apathetic approach towards it.) Wavedashing, dash dancing, dash canceling, pivoting, edge canceling, and jump-cancel options (grab, upsmash, up-B) were effectively consequences of core components of the game.

Without the extensive mobility found in Melee, Melee becomes much more like a faster-falling version of Smash 4, as approach requires far more commitment.

 

[DRGN]

It was also a simple side-scroller with simple (but beautiful!) graphics. An AMAZING game, but a simple game.

Yeah, I almost also gave that point. If Kadano can make his game very simple in style and graphics to work with temporarily, and almost entirely focus on how the game will play, then (assuming the gameplay turns out fun and interesting) he might have a good shot at recruiting graphic artists to then come in and revamp its visuals.

I think it was mango who said, paraphrased, that you can't recreate melee because melee was an accident.

That wouldn't be good logic even if it was, lol; lots of things are first created by accident and then later recreated on purpose because if it. They call them discoveries.

 

[EddyBearr]

That wouldn't be good logic even if it was, lol; lots of things are first created by accident and then later recreated on purpose because if it. They call them discoveries.

The OP implied that they didn't want another P:M. To recreate melee in this sense does not mean to have the same things as melee, but to do something similar to what melee did -- to give the player control, an ever-evolving metagame, a high-skill game, etc.

 

[MookieRah]

The biggest thing that makes melee so competitive would probably be the high levels of mobility. Most of the high mobility was unintentional (if known by developers, they took an apathetic approach towards it.) Wavedashing, dash dancing, dash canceling, pivoting, edge canceling, and jump-cancel options (grab, upsmash, up-B) were effectively consequences of core components of the game.

There is no evidence to suggest that the dev team was not aware that you could do those things. I'm sure they had no idea how some of it would impact the game at extremely high levels, but they had to have known about them due to the fact that they were programming the game. You have to keep in mind that they were making the game, and had much better diagnostic tools than even we do now. Also Sakurai was incredibly scrutinising of the game as well, so I'm sure he made decisions regarding pretty much everything on your list.

The OP implied that they didn't want another P:M. To recreate melee in this sense does not mean to have the same things as melee, but to do something similar to what melee did -- to give the player control, an ever-evolving metagame, a high-skill game, etc.

Well the main problems with PM is just that it's a novice team that understands the game at a high level and due to that information characters feel too "designed". That is, they are using the knowledge of a developed meta game and making moves with an intended use. That sounds great on paper, but in practice what happens is that a character doesn't feel like it has much room to grow past the vision that the designer had for the character. Personally, I think this is merely a temporary problem, and one that could actually be worked on if the PM team continues to address it. I'm sure they will find a way to make moves more ambiguous and less perfect for specific tasks, which opens the door for creative uses.

 

[DRGN]

I agree with MookieRah. When programmers are building something, they pay attention to the smallest of details. After all, they're writing functions and bits of code to behave, usually, a very particular way, which means that when something doesn't work, being very observant of what is working correctly and what isn't (i.e. the point where it breaks) is the best way to troubleshoot code. And I don't even think that the behavior of the mechanics talked about here are small details.

As an example, consider how much work they did creating various speeds and even accelerations for walking and running, different animations for different speeds of walking, and specific animations for stopping runs, starting runs, turning, turning at high speed, etc. And sometimes it can take a while to make even one thing. After each was made, I'm betting whoever did it sat down and tested that one specific animation, scrutinizing the time and work he/she put into it. Most likely frame-by-frame at some point (And I wouldn't be surprised if it was standard procedure). I expect that whoever did run-turnarounds knew fully well when the animation could be triggered, and when it couldn't.

 

[SypherPhoenix]

Melee already has a true successor and it is called Melty Blood: Actress Again Current Code.

I needed a new signature anyways

 

[SypherPhoenix]

Kadano, on the real, just from reading your few paragraphs in the OP, it seems like you might not really have a clear vision of what you want out of a spiritual sequel, or a clear idea of what exactly is required to create a game like Melee. I hate to be just another naysayer, but who's going to create all the resources you need in order to have a decent looking game? Cave Story was done in five years by one guy, but it looks like something out of the SNES, and handles like something out of the NES. Unless you're looking to recreate Super Smash Flash you need things like models, artwork, sound effects, etc. Are you experienced enough to create and animate something like Marth's model from scratch? Are you OK with your game looking like a ZUN sketchpad?

The multiple game modes you're suggesting is perhaps a bit worrysome considering the potential development team. Expansive single player games are perhaps much harder to create than multiplayer ones and require far more art assets. Is this game just going to be a JRPG with a platform fighter multiplayer? While it might seem cool to combine all these different aspects, being concise and minimalistic really do win out at the end of the day. If you're going to make a fighter, just make a fighter. Working with existing IPs is also probably more of a struggle than you currently realize, especially considering you'd have to network with people in Japan to do anything with klk.

But really, what's wrong with Melee? What are you going to change and improve? What's good about Melee and how are you going to insert that into this new game? Melee isn't good only because of the engine and technical gameplay. These are questions you need to ask yourself before you consider the type of game you want to make. Stuff like the 3 styles for each character is great from a fanservice perspective but really hurts the game's competitive cohesion.

 

[Oskurito]

Your idea about a new game sounds very promising but very complicated indeed. I think you're very optimistic saying it could take you just a couple of years, LOL I've studied computer programming and I've been writting code in Java, C/C++, C#, VBASIC, PHP, Jquery/Javascript, etc. etc. since 2008.

I know a bunch, and I've made quite a few little games on C++ for windows. I once wrote a 2D scroller like RPG for the Nintendo DS using homebrew tools, in which you could only move a little character accross a map. I used libraries for that, which means you need to write less code and is somewhat easier than writting it all yourself from scratch. Is also pretty easy to deploy the compiled game to an R4 SD card and plug into a DS. Also messed around with gameboy advance code... blah blah the list goes on and on, and if you don't believe me I could PM you a .zip file with many unfinished games and applications that I've made over the years. I mainly use OpenGL libraries on windows but I can also you use DirectX.

The point is, I know that it takes months and months to figure out and make something work they way you want it to work. Nobody here is a professional game developer so it's very likely that we can't make a clear estimation on how much time it will take for the whole thing to be finished, let alone the physics engine of the game, or the artwork that is needed to be done.

I think sticking to something like 2D fighting game is way easier and realistically more achievable by us indie game developers. If you're worrying that it may look like trash, well that depends a lot on the quality of the art (you will need at least a couple of guys that are sick at drawing and designing stuff), there are plenty of 2D games for PC, Console, or SmartPhones that look really good. Then, with great effort, it could take 2 years, to have a solid game, it could be a bit buggy here and there, **** always happens. But we could write update programs or patchers and whatnot.

You can count me in if you wish, I know how to write games from scratch (I studied computer sciencebut I think we will need a team of at least 5 or 6 people.