Buffs that would make DK a MUCH Better combatant

[Braydon]

massive nerf to knockback upon successful side special

But it buries, so it doesn't have knockback... Why would you even want knockback bury is so much better.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

But it buries, so it doesn't have knockback... Why would you even want knockback bury is so much better.

He's talking about hits while they are buried.

 

[The740]

DK is basically all I have played in any smash game, and I have to say I personally don't really care much about getting better frame data. To me, DK is supposed to be a powerhouse. He's a bigass gorilla and if there is one thing they should have it is strength. So for me, this is how to fix DK:
Slightly increased knockback on all smashes(Fsmash the most).
Increased knockback on full wind DK punch, fix charging issues and have 10 be max like in brawl.
Fix sourspot hit on DK punch, its just plain unnecessary and I want to think it isn't supposed to be there at all
More knockback from backthrow. Don't make it as good as Ness', but def better than it is.
Side-B/grounded mechanics can stay as they are, idc. But it has to take a bit longer for people to mash out, right now if someone wants to they'll get out at 100 before you can even throw a punch.

Of course there are more that COULD be done to really make DK better, but with just this I would at least feel like he was DK again.

 

[Braydon]

Can we all just agree on a few things he needs? It seems we would be more likely to get the buffs we want if we did. Like take a look at diddy's "Hoo haa" combo, there's even a special name for what people want a nerf on, almost everyone agrees and I can't imagine nintendo hasn't heard something about it.

Now take a look at DK, there's just a general buzz that he's sort of underpowered but no one agrees on why or what he needs, nintendo is far less likely to notice then if everyone was saying the same thing about him.



Anyway TL;DR we should try to agree on a consensus about what he needs to be buffed in rather than everyone walking in blurting whatever pops into mind and then leaving.




Now the way I see it, DK's major shortcomings are his bad approach, vulnerability to projectiles, and some kind of screwed hitboxes.

So to fix his approach I would say,

• Increase speed and/or priority on Fair, and maybe slightly damage, but lose the meteor sweetspot, he doesn't need it anyway because his Dair is a meteor, and there's no sense him suffering a slow Fair for it.
  
• Slightly increase priority on dash and decrease end lag.

To make him less vulnerable to projectiles,

• Grounded up special now deflects projectiles

Then theirs the hitbox fixes,

• Increase Usmash hitbox slightly, and add a much larger sourspot hitbox starting all the way at the ground
• Add a whiff hitbox to Fsmash between current hitbox and his chest

And just a few more buffs to get him up,

• Decrease knockback on first jab hit so it's easier to link, and make it hit a frame or two earlier
• Back throw kills around 115%

EDIT:
One more change,

• Decrease how far back DK is pushed when his super punch collides with a shield, and increase how much the opponent is pushed back. Right now you can get pushed straight of a ledge when it's shielded and then you go into helpless...

 

[Luigi player]

I'll have to add this to my list of buffs:
- no "not getting SA" bug if you're landing while using the fully charged giant punch!!! If they'd just fix all these random bugs DK would already get quite a bit better...

 

[RomanceDawn]

I've been testing out the Smash attacks and it seems that Forward Smash no longer whiffs if the opponent is too close. At least not with Sonic because he was one I used to have trouble with. The hit box seems to extend all the way to the arms now.

The giant punch seems to wind faster as well. Not quite sure.

 

[itsaxelol]

i think mega punch charges a little faster, it looks like it

 

[itsaxelol]

fsmash hitbox gap is still there, and i notice no changes whatsoever aside from a slightly quicker wind up on punch. cargo f/b still useless

punch wind up still bugged
crazy fair landing lag still present
punch sourspot still present and awful

quick thoughts - dk got overlooked and they only made the punch take a second or so less. wow. lol

 

[RomanceDawn]

fsmash hitbox gap is still there, and i notice no changes whatsoever aside from a slightly quicker wind up on punch. cargo f/b still useless

punch wind up still bugged
crazy fair landing lag still present
punch sourspot still present and awful

quick thoughts - dk got overlooked and they only made the punch take a second or so less. wow. lol

Are you sure? Before the patch I could easily whiff the forward Smash. Now I can't seem to do it at all. There may be some hit box gap but it certainly isn't as big as it once was.


Edit:
Ok, so before the patch I would miss characters like Sonic and Ness. After the patch I can hit them it seems 100% of the time no matter how close they are. However, characters with a very slender frame like Wii Fit Trainer and Zero Suit Samus can avoid DK's forward Smash by being too close. There is still a gap in the hit box.

It's not perfect but it's better.

 

[itsaxelol]

Are you sure? Before the patch I could easily whiff the forward Smash. Now I can't seem to do it at all. There may be some hit box gap but it certainly isn't as big as it once was.

100%. it was always hard to reenact during training vs real time. turn the cp to control, and slightly walk into dk while using fsmash. it whiffs every time

im also not looking at knockback or percentages. those could be different. but no big changes in terms of lag or frame data

 

[RomanceDawn]

100%. it was always hard to reenact during training vs real time. turn the cp to control, and slightly walk into dk while using fsmash. it whiffs every time

I see you are having them walk into DK huh? I've always been having the opponent at a stand still. Sonic was one of the ones that irked me the most but I used to put him at a stand still, get as close as possible and miss the forward smash way too much. Now though I can't seem to recreate it but I wouldn't be surprised if moving toward DK would make a difference.

 

[itsaxelol]

thats the idea of how it misses. theyre moving into you, landing lag makes their hurtbox smaller, etc. im pretty sure nothing changed. i just did it with ness and sonic too. same thing

 

[Metalbro]

That giant punch wind up speed buff is nice.

 

[MaximalGFX]

Well this is sad... was really hoping they would fix all his hit box problem.

 

[itsaxelol]

That giant punch wind up speed buff is nice.

its like finding 10 dollars on the floor. yea.. its nice... but its not going to do **** when your car bill and phone bill and rent come along

its literally a 1 wind difference. its nothing. they didnt even fix the cancel bug

 

[Big O]

As far as I can tell, Fsmash and Ftilt got hitbox buffs that let them hit closer than they used to, but they can still whiff. I used to be able to whiff Fsmash on ZSS while she is standing still. Now I can't get it to whiff. I've only gotten Ftilt to whiff on her once because she was like inside DK during Ftilt startup.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I like the new punch, I think it probably takes anywhere from a second to a second and a half charge buff which IMO makes it perfect, and now the "10 wind" punch also gets there more quickly, And so far for me it's worked so much better than the old punch in the for glorys I was in...I'm happy. And fsmash doesn't whiff except against the slender characters while standing still. I actually wasn't afraid to use fsmash in the for glorys lol. Btw I'm not sure about this but I thinkkk that dsmash got a knockback buff. Someone else can check it out for me plz and thx.

Btw if it hasn't been stated: giant punch did get a very slight knockback buff.

 

[Big O]

I like the new punch, I think it probably takes anywhere from a second to a second and a half charge buff which IMO makes it perfect, and now the "10 wind" punch also gets there more quickly, And so far for me it's worked so much better than the old punch in the for glorys I was in...I'm happy. And fsmash doesn't whiff except against the slender characters while standing still. I actually wasn't afraid to use fsmash in the for glorys lol. Btw I'm not sure about this but I thinkkk that dsmash got a knockback buff. Someone else can check it out for me plz and thx.

Btw if it hasn't been stated: giant punch did get a very slight knockback buff.

Dsmash and Giant Punch both have the same KB as before. Also the punch charge buff is pretty minor. It is pretty much like 1 less swing in time saved.

Overall, DK has recieved very slight buffs, but they didn't get around to fixing any of his bugs/problems. Giant Punch SD's, Spinning Kong flex pose instead of autocanceling, ghost punch charge bug, ghost sourspot on punch, unsafe on hit moves, and the unreliable multihit of Spinning Kong are all still in.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Someone who had data on prior patch said giant punch used to kill (Mario?) at 76% center stage, now it's 74.

 

[SILENTWALL]

All Neutral Specials, Side Special and Side Smash seems having a very good "pushing away" against to normal shield. I think these moves are pretty safe on blocked now.

*** I haven't tested Air Side Special and Air Neutral Specials.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Neutral Special, Side Special and Side Smash seems having a very good "pushing away" against to normal shield. I think these moves are pretty safe on blocked now.

??? No comprende señor.

 

[Big O]

Someone who had data on prior patch said giant punch used to kill (Mario?) at 76% center stage, now it's 74.

Either Mario weighs less, the CPU DI's differently (could be it DI's randomly too), or your testing didn't match the methods used to obtain the data.

I have default Mii SF barely dying to punch at 75% before and after the patch. I used 2 controllers in training mode so there is no CPU randomness, rage, or stale moves to think about.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Well if Mario now weighs less I'm sure that's something most ppl won't pick up on for a while, wonder if we can confirm this with someone who has data on Mario.

 

[Quillion]

He needs a combination of range on par with sword users and better killing so that as a Glacier, he can stack up to the Speedsters better.

 

[itsaxelol]

we'll have to wait until a data dump. but im sure everything you guys are saying is placebo and the only change is a nifty, but insignificant and does nothing for us 1 less wind

 

[ILJ]

Give him a banana like diddy. Done.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

You know one thing none of us mentioned here are how dks getup options from the ledge are all terribly bad. He has I think the worst roll in the game from the ledge, which is so easy to punish it isn't funny, his attack from the ledge has a lot of lag too as does his standard getup. The only real options a Dk has against someone looking to punish is jumping or doing a forward or up air upon pressing down and jumping onto the stage. Whatever happened to his butt from all prior smash games? God I loved that getup option, he had the best one in the game and now has the worst.

 

[RomanceDawn]

• Neutral B charges faster (UNCONFIRMED)
• Down B is quicker (UNCONFIRMED)
• neutral A is quicker CONFIRMED
• fair is faster CONFIRMED
• dair is faster and with less landing lagCONFIRMED

This is from Reddit, can anyone confirm?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I think it's bs. Confirmed my ass. I'm not at home but I'm pretty sure whoever they relied on for that info was wrong.

 

[Jmex]

Really wish i didn't have to work today so i can test this out.

 

[Braydon]

They decreased super punch charge time, buffing his best move, while leaving all the problems intact...

Balance patch my ass.

 

[AlexKO]

Kinda confused why DK didn't get buffs similar to Bowser. An overall small buff to all knockback/damage seems appropriate. I've adopted DK as my 2nd main...been playing him a bunch since the patch especially. He's a blast to play although he really needs more love.

I think Bair needs a bit more knockback...and why is fair so darn laggy? Seems overboard to me.

 

[Braydon]

Kinda confused why DK didn't get buffs similar to Bowser. An overall small buff to all knockback/damage seems appropriate. I've adopted DK as my 2nd main...been playing him a bunch since the patch especially. He's a blast to play although he really needs more love.

I think Bair needs a bit more knockback...and why is fair so darn laggy? Seems overboard to me.

Why would he need more kill power? He already has super punch the single best kill move in the game.

What would be useful for him would be better approach options, something to help him against projectiles, and something to help him not get comboed so easy.

 

[AlexKO]

Why would he need more kill power? He already has super punch the single best kill move in the game.

What would be useful for him would be better approach options, something to help him against projectiles, and something to help him not get comboed so easy.

Because as a heavy that's sort of his niche. I agree with giving him some buffed approaching options but he's supposed to have some clear weaknesses. To me, as a heavy that means being having a big hitbox that let's you get combo'ed easily. They can't balance characters by making them all the same...that would make all the characters too similar.

DK does hit fairly hard, but not as hard as Dedede or Bowser despite being pretty much the same in terms of mobility and reach. There's no way I think super punch is the best kill move in the game since you have to spend so much time charging it. Gannon and Bowser both have far better overall kill options in my opinion.

I think his approach options are unnecessarily bad as well....I don't see any reason for his fair to be so slow and laggy. I also don't see a reason for his vertical recovery to be so awful.

DK is so weird in that his bair is so good and his approaches so bad that you have to learn to play the game backwards, with your back to your opponent to do well.

 

[Braydon]

Because as a heavy that's sort of his niche. I agree with giving him some buffed approaching options but he's supposed to have some clear weaknesses. To me, as a heavy that means being having a big hitbox that let's you get combo'ed easily. They can't balance characters by making them all the same...that would make all the characters too similar.

DK does hit fairly hard, but not as hard as Dedede or Bowser despite being pretty much the same in terms of mobility and reach. There's no way I think super punch is the best kill move in the game since you have to spend so much time charging it. Gannon and Bowser both have far better overall kill options in my opinion.

I think his approach options are unnecessarily bad as well....I don't see any reason for his fair to be so slow and laggy. I also don't see a reason for his vertical recovery to be so awful.

DK is so weird in that his bair is so good and his approaches so bad that you have to learn to play the game backwards, with your back to your opponent to do well.

If you simply increase his kill power it will become far to ludicrous, you don't want him 2 shoting light chars. I understand he's supposed to be different, that doesn't mean the solution to everything is more kill power... He has enough... Buffing his approach and helping him deal with projectiles will not make him to similar to the rest of the cast...

Super punch is the best kill move in the game, charging it is not that hard and once charged it can fire on almost no notice and kill around 60%, it's very easy to land for a kill move with great power. I guess you could argue mac's KO punch is better, but considering that you get only one shot per life and can get knocked out of a charge easy I'd say super punch is better.


And now you say his approach is bad, what I said should be buffed instead of ko power... Actually if you read what I said I specifically brought up his Fair. My wishes for the patch were a faster Fair, grounded up B deflects projectiles, and some general priority increases.

 

[L9999]

Remove the SD of Giant Punch in midair and remove the horrible landing lag of Up B. Then give him back everything good taken away from Brawl.

 

[Gloman600]

if dk had less end lag on grounded up bs

 

[Diddy Kong]

Down B should work like it does in DKC Returns by stunning enemies (from up close for example) and cause more shield damage. Up B grounded also should have more priority and super armor on it.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

WALL JUMP.

 

[Diddy Kong]

WALL JUMP.

Oh yes that'd be soooo sexy