Buffs that would make DK a MUCH Better combatant

[MaximalGFX]

WALL JUMP.

That would be amazing for DK! Wall jump to Fair/Dair would be so sexy!

 

[Metalbro]

Wall jump would be unbelievable helpful for DK's recovery and overall ledge game. Also just watching a giant gorilla push itself off a wall all muscular and wild like would just look so badass. (even tho he already does this by walltech jumping)

 

[MaximalGFX]

Ok, this need to happen...

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

That would be amazing for DK! Wall jump to Fair/Dair would be so sexy!

Not just that, stages like Duck Hunt would allow DK to go super deep and make it back.

 

[itsaxelol]

When I first got the jpb3ds version, I tested dk and posted my findings here while I was playing. Checking to see if they added a wall jump for dk was one of the first things I tested and reported I really thought they would add it to him this game. Its so untrue to his games that he cant

 

[L9999]

When I first got the jpb3ds version, I tested dk and posted my findings here while I was playing. Checking to see if they added a wall jump for dk was one of the first things I tested and reported I really thought they would add it to him this game. Its so untrue to his games that he cant

They give wall jumps to random characters instead of those who need it or have it in their original games but not here. Like, why the devil Mewtwo has a wall jump? He has an insane double jump, confusion and teleport for recovery, why the wall jump? Why Killager has a wall jump? His recovery is a free pass, he doesn't need it! Why not giving it to Ness who needs it to not get screwed by the walls? Why not giving it to DK who needs vertical height? Mac has it, so why not DK?

 

[S_B]

Two things I'd like to see for ALL heavyweights:

1. Grab armor: if there's any archetype that makes sense to have this, it's the heavies. It doesn't seem like much, but when you factor in how much safer it makes grab as an option because it will win trades, it definitely helps.

2. Tough guy: rather than tough guy being one semi-crap mechanic on Bowser (it only helps him in 3 matchups), I'd rather it be a sliding scale applied to all characters based upon their weight ranking and the strength of the attack hitting them. Also, it shouldn't cause the character to go into "matrix mode" when being hit by it (ie Bowser looking like he's moving through molasses when being peppered with jabs).

 

[Dsull]

if i could fix/add one thing to DK it would make his hitboxes actually resemble the model.

So irritating to Fsmash only to find youre "too close" and they sit between your arms. What the heck? Nobody else has that problem, in fact a lot of characters have wonky hitboxes in areas the animation doesnt even suggest its there (Shiek.....) or for that matter have lingering hitboxes when the same motion on DK doesnt have a lingering hitbox.

Thats it. I dont care about making him the new S rank by reducing his lag to the point most Speedy characters have, i just want his burly actions to actually feel like hes a moving wall. Coming into contact of those arms at all should hurt you even if he didnt get you with his fist because you still got whacked by a tree trunk lol.
Majority of my problems that lead to my demise are because i did a move in a situation where for any other character it would work, but for DK it doesnt for some reason such as the Fsmash. Leaves me wide open for the counter.

 

[DongofDelaware72]

If anything, DK's side-b should be replaced with a barrel toss. It is a rare chance that you'll get the sheild break and it is so easy to punish when it misses. This is what I believe the move should play as: 1). Standard Toss: an overhead toss with a wide angle where the barrel bursts when hitting the ground. 2). Bouncing Barrel: a barrel tossed at a higher altitude and a steeper angle in which the barrel bounces twice before bursting. 3). Barrel Roll: a quick underhand toss where the barrel rolls on the ground for a short time and average distance. *Note* all of these should matter on the input of the c-stick.

 

[Dsull]

As much as i love shieldsmashing, i kinda agree barrel would make more sense. I mean its one of his iconic moves both in the original arcade and DKC. But something tells me they'd make it similar to Dedede's Gordo and...no thanks lol

 

[DongofDelaware72]

As much as i love shieldsmashing, i kinda agree barrel would make more sense. I mean its one of his iconic moves both in the original arcade and DKC. But something tells me they'd make it similar to Dedede's Gordo and...no thanks lol

I fully understand where you're coming from with it being similar to the gordo throw. To make it a little more original, if that's the right word, it should be something like Mii Brawler's Shot Put throw where it has a fixed angle.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

If they were to give DK a projectile I'd much rather see something from 64. Either the Orange Bomb, or the Coconut Gun(though they would probably find a way to make Coconut Gun ****). As an alternate option, if they were to put the barrel throw in the game, why not let him literally pull out a barrel item like he does in Brawl Minus(Hold Down+B).

 

[Dsull]

Coconut Gun would DEFINITELY be a Peanut gun knockoff lol.
Least the barrels would be somewhat unique. Even if they followed the Gordo rules for being thrown, they wouldnt reflect back they'd break on impact/after a couple projectiles at most. Less lethal as a result obviously lol.

 

[DongofDelaware72]

If something were to be added from 64, I say it should be DK's coconut crystal shockwave attack as an alternate to his neutral-b. It could either be a charged attack like Ike's Eruption, or something like Cpt. Falcon/Ganondorf with their signature punches. It should still keep the same animation from 64 with the orange orbs floating around DK and the same motion of slamming both fists on the ground.

 

[Axel311]

I'm a Dedede main but I also love playing DK. What DK (and all heavies) really need are 1) better approach options and 2) better ways to deal with projectiles.

For #1, for DK and Dedede, vastly reduce the stupidly awful ending lag on their Fairs. That will help neutral. Make DK's fair faster as well. If for balance reasons they want to remove the spike property from DK's fair in return for improved speed and reduced end lag that would be a trade I'm sure DK mains would be happy to accept.

As for #2, perhaps give DK a reflect option similar to palutena's mirror or Mario's cape? He could hold up a barrel to block the projectile, like you see in the DK country games. I don't think an absorb would be thematically appropriate, and I like the idea for vastly reducing the lag on the swallow animation to have Dedede's inhale work like Rosalina's absorb so I wouldn't want to give the same move to DK in order to make the characters different.

Not sure I agree with the barrel suggestions above, since it would make him too similar to Dedede.

Wish I could comment on Bowser and Gannon, but I don't know those characters that well.

 

[Dsull]

Ending lag in general would be a massive boost since their attacks that cause said landing lag, for all heavies, is typically not strong enough to justify the landing lag.
No idea how many times ive slammed someone like Shiek with my Fair, hit the ground and she was able to recover/run at me faster than my landing lag. And that was moderate damage (~60%) not low damage.

Then again i feel like theres an exploit in this game i havnt been able to figure out involving landing lag. I see a TON of people of every type (even DK sometimes, though not as commonly) land and not even have a single frame pause between shield, smash, or dodge/roll. I never see anyone do it once in awhile, its either they never pull it off and i catch them or theyre frame-perfect dodging everything when their attacks/landing animation should be preventing it.

 

[Athorment]

..i feel like theres an exploit in this game i havnt been able to figure out involving landing lag. I see a TON of people of every type (even DK sometimes, though not as commonly) land and not even have a single frame pause between shield, smash, or dodge/roll. I never see anyone do it once in awhile, its either they never pull it off and i catch them or theyre frame-perfect dodging everything when their attacks/landing animation should be preventing it.

I think what you mean is "Frame Cancelling", a technique that reduces the lag of Down Air by "L-Cancelling". Seems it only works for Down Air though. Here's a vid to it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QPrOGeveEo

As for ways to improve DK:
*Via Changing moves:
-I've always imagined his Clap from Jungle Beat would make a great Anti-Projectile special move, but the animation is basically the same as his Side Smash so it would be a matter of switching around his Headbutt side B and the clap in order for it to "work" (More on this below). I also imagine the Jungle Beat clap would be chargeable with auto release in the likes of Marth's Shield Breaker to expand the shock wave ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Customs for this would involve one that gives Super armor while charging but the shock wave is shorter while the other is a quick clap with good range but the shock wave doesn't causes flinching to foes.
-If we add the Clap as a new Side B idea, the old headbutt could potentially be turned into a Melee Bowser-like Side Smash... OR we can make a switching of three moves and move his Fair to Side Smash, Clap to Side B and then the headbutt turns into a quick Sheik-like Fair.
-I like that idea of removing the d tilt hand slap in favor of the Hand slap down b. If the Clap turns into Down B, we dont have to make that weird switcheroo of above.
-His F tilt can be blocked and punished fairly easy depending on rival's distance and attack range. Adding a second phase to it like Brawl Snake's F tilt would allow for a mix up that could make him safer in the neutral.... though now that i think about it, this just sounds like "Give his Jab more range!".
-Read earlier in this thread about making his Nair hit twice. That could help him greatly even if they make the late hit sour spot-like weak.
*Via buffs:
-The Janky hitboxes on Side and Up Smash got fixed thank god
-I think giving his down air 2-3 frames of super armor (basically while he is pulling his foot before the stomp) could potentially make foes think twice before trying to juggle him from below, but that doesn't really fixes his landing problems.
-A Wall jump as suggested would be amazing for his vertical recovery... something he struggles with.
-Give his Spinning Kong Up B the Bowser treatment. Trade off between horizontal mobility OR Vertical mobility via mashing. You get one of both only so it comes down whether you mash or not.
-They realized that the charge time for Neutral B was horrible early in the game. Now we need the ability to properly cancel and shield mid charge. There's a pretty bad time frame between you press the button to shield and the moment the shield pops up that leaves him very exposed.... which is a weird balance design cause characters like Sheik, Mewtwo and Samus can cancel their CHARGEABLE PROJECTILES no problem.
-The heavier characters have tons of lag in their slow but powerful attacks.... why dont we give some of them super armor? even 1-2 frames in start up would allow to catch close quarter combatants by surprise when they go in for the attack thinking they initiated the combo only to NOPE, GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE!
-So far the most glaring thing about many aerials in comparison to Luigi and Specially Sheik is that you can jump and the aerial will fail to come out, specially for the heavy characters. Ganon and even bowser suffer from this And with how laggy their landings are... for a Fair to fail to come out at all can mean getting Smash attacked as a punish. It makes no sense that some aerials dont come out, but for DK's and Ganon's to suffer their long landing lag anyway. I believe that if those attacks Come out in the first place they wouldn't struggle as much because good spacing could rush in characters better.

Conclusion:
-Seems i covered projectiles and recovery more than his frame data, but people already seem to agree that copy-pasting brawl's frame data would be it so enjoy my ideas. Let's hope Sakurai buff the first member of the DK Krew and remember! happy Banana Slamming, my hairy friends!

 

[Dsull]

I think what you mean is "Frame Cancelling", a technique that reduces the lag of Down Air by "L-Cancelling". Seems it only works for Down Air though. Here's a vid to it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QPrOGeveEo

While ive seen that dair canceling tactic that wasnt what i meant. I was referring to pretty much everything from the air having 0 landing lag allowing them to get a shield/spotdodge immediately even from a freefall animation before i can hit them. If i had a way to record video from my wiiu i would upload a video and highlight what i mean, but all i got is a dinky camera and looks about as great as my siggy gif lol. Not very good for analysis making.
I know theres the quick-recover if you hit the shield button at the right moment, but that has its own animation and i never see it unless they use it to go into a roll.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

There's only one thing that really annoys me, and that's when i went through the effort to do a turnaround backair only to be turned around again by some projectile, resulting in me doing a forward air (in other words I was trying to do a back air to hit the projectile and then do another back kick to get in on the opponent, but because there was a spacing/timing issue the projectile hit me first (think luigis fireball) so I was turned around and immediately did a forward air instead, causing me to lag onto the ground). So here's what the patch team should do to fix it: have DK's forward air autocancel on the frames before the attack/hitbox actually starts to come out. It's so simple, and they should definitely look to implement it immediately.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Think about this. F-air has super armor now.

*proceeds to destroy For Glory scrubs with DK*

 

[Solutionme]

Ending lag in general would be a massive boost since their attacks that cause said landing lag, for all heavies, is typically not strong enough to justify the landing lag.
No idea how many times ive slammed someone like Shiek with my Fair, hit the ground and she was able to recover/run at me faster than my landing lag. And that was moderate damage (~60%) not low damage.

Then again i feel like theres an exploit in this game i havnt been able to figure out involving landing lag. I see a TON of people of every type (even DK sometimes, though not as commonly) land and not even have a single frame pause between shield, smash, or dodge/roll. I never see anyone do it once in awhile, its either they never pull it off and i catch them or theyre frame-perfect dodging everything when their attacks/landing animation should be preventing it.

You're probably thinking of auto-canceling.

But I came here to ask how the DK mains feel about their buffs the last two patches, now that you guys can hoo-hah and guarantee a kill at 60%. I will admit though, that doesn't fix his issues, would be nice to see if at the point he finishes extending his foot in dair that he could auto cancel it, giving him a great landing option in it.

 

[Dsull]

Think about this. F-air has super armor now.

*proceeds to destroy For Glory scrubs with DK*

That would be hilarious. Considering his crazy landing lag, which would cancel the super armor if you time it badly, it wouldnt be as nuts as you would think.
I always felt the heavy characters needed more armor attacks. Bowser is really the only one that casually has armor, and its sporadic/unpredictable for him so kinda hard to utilize. And it isnt even "armor" technically since it only works on some attacks.
Yaknow, make those crazy fast characters that have insane security in everything they do actually utilize their speed to get at us heavies, because we blow right through their attacks if they dont dodge properly. Most attacks anyway.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

You're probably thinking of auto-canceling.

But I came here to ask how the DK mains feel about their buffs the last two patches, now that you guys can hoo-hah and guarantee a kill at 60%. I will admit though, that doesn't fix his issues, would be nice to see if at the point he finishes extending his foot in dair that he could auto cancel it, giving him a great landing option in it.

I think DK is balanced overall especially with this patch. I was at smashcon and I saw how both I and a few other DK's performed there. Really there were only 3 very good DK's there, including myself, Will, and Poke. Will used DK the majority of the way through and through nothing but very strong fundamentals was beating people (in some cases badly) left and right. I'm probably the most skilled tech wise but Will beat me too in friendlies (although we only played 2 games) because he has strong fundamentals and lets the game come to him. I think the upthrow upair gives DK exactly what he needed, a way to kill vs. those characters that at the end of the day he has a LOT of trouble killing in other ways. I have mixed feelings about it as a result...that something so simple kills a lot of the cast from 70-80%, but at the same time the only way you can do it is if you don't stale DK's up air, so at the same time its not a braindead move either. I do dislike the fact that almost all of DK's grabs before 90% will now be upthrow upairs rather than relying on back throw to forward air, neutral air, or back air as a mixup. He's a very dangerous character to face no matter who you play, because after that cargo upthrow to upair ceases to be a kill move because of increased knockback, he can then decide to grab and do a cargo stagespike or even carry you off the stage and downthrow or forward throw you to your death. This one change alone means that no DK can ever complain again about DK's inability to fight the best characters out there. Because he has the agility to keep up and to fight against the best, the problem was being able to finish them off especially with his not-too-good approach options and frame data that left him vulnerable. But now, even if he can be juggled DK can return the damage in no time, if not more. DK is a stone-cold killer now. In addition to those things, he has two shield breakers, four ways to spike (and all four are useful no matter what other DK's will tell you), and a giant punch. I mean, there simply are no more excuses left.

There are still matchups where he gets the short end of the stick (greninja, yoshi, zss, maybe Rosa) and maybe others (honestly some of us do better in certain matchups than others do, for example I play better vs. certain characters because of my playstyle than does Will, and he plays better against a lot of the characters he's more used to fighting than I do) but overall this is the first time someone could choose to go DK through the entire tournament and win. As long as you don't get gimped or somehow lost your jump which prevents you from recovering....that vertical recovery is still his main weakness against smart players, but in general it's still a great recovery especially if you b reverse it to prevent people who want to gimp you from being able to time it correctly.

 

[Solutionme]

Very nice observation, I know that DK actually has one of the best bairs in the game from experience when dealing with them on FG. It covers the entire ledge, combos, is safe on shield and can kill at a reasonable percent too. That's why I always thought he wasn't low tier aside just having a good neutral b and a plethora of shield breaking moves, one of which is good cornering people and punishing rolls. But this is for sure more in depth.

What would you say overall though are his best moves now? I feel like d-tilt, bair, uair, and his throws carry the torch currently along with neutral b and a grounded up-b.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Very nice observation, I know that DK actually has one of the best bairs in the game from experience when dealing with them on FG. It covers the entire ledge, combos, is safe on shield and can kill at a reasonable percent too. That's why I always thought he wasn't low tier aside just having a good neutral b and a plethora of shield breaking moves, one of which is good cornering people and punishing rolls. But this is for sure more in depth.

What would you say overall though are his best moves now? I feel like d-tilt, bair, uair, and his throws carry the torch currently along with neutral b and a grounded up-b.

you have to mix it up and use everything, but actually yeah his dtilt became even more useful now because the tripping now leads straight into a guaranteed extra 30% damage at low %s. Overall I wouldn't label anything "best" or better, but I would just say that you really have to use his pivot fsmash and pivot grabs a lot especially against characters that like to rush you down (pikachu, etc).

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

That would be hilarious. Considering his crazy landing lag, which would cancel the super armor if you time it badly, it wouldnt be as nuts as you would think.
I always felt the heavy characters needed more armor attacks. Bowser is really the only one that casually has armor, and its sporadic/unpredictable for him so kinda hard to utilize. And it isnt even "armor" technically since it only works on some attacks.
Yaknow, make those crazy fast characters that have insane security in everything they do actually utilize their speed to get at us heavies, because we blow right through their attacks if they dont dodge properly. Most attacks anyway.

Well, I was not exactly thinking of using it to cover the ground. I was thinking of the edgeguarding game. The super armor is against those quick, long range hits (like Diddy's f-air) which come faster.

I almost never use f-air to fall. I prefer to fall in safety with DK.

 

[JayX]

dentist just needs another tie.

no wait dermatologist should be fastest in the video game.

 

[Solutionme]

A wall jump would make sense canonically and help him a ton, I think I saw someone post that earlier.

 

[kro_]

Just give this ape a way to land without getting punished

 

[DaRkJaWs]

There are ways; you can b reverse his down b to mix up the landing and perhaps hit them too (note when you wavebounce or b reverse you also come down faster), and actually you should hope that you do either really mix them up or hit them because it does have sufficient end lag to get punished. You can also b reverse a side b at times when coming down, it's situational but it really does work.
Dks worst problem isn't his inability come down but his inability to get back onto the stage from the ledge vs at least half the cast. It's really a guessing game as to which option is the better one because unlike in former games none of these options are safe, you just have to get lucky that you picked the right one against the best players. Honestly it really annoys me and the fact that I like to go offstage a lot or like to go to the ledge to reset situations is the biggest thing hurting my game; I always feel like "this game will be different" but dks ledge options are just so bad that against some characters you will rack up a lot of damage just trying to get back on stage. His best option is jumping in most situations but you can get punished by a lot of neutral attacks that cover that and the other options. Honestly I'm most pissed by his getup attack, so many moves outpriortize it and the hitbox on it is deceivingly small.

 

[kro_]

There are ways; you can b reverse his down b to mix up the landing and perhaps hit them too (note when you wavebounce or b reverse you also come down faster), and actually you should hope that you do either really mix them up or hit them because it does have sufficient end lag to get punished. You can also b reverse a side b at times when coming down, it's situational but it really does work.
Dks worst problem isn't his inability come down but his inability to get back onto the stage from the ledge vs at least half the cast. It's really a guessing game as to which option is the better one because unlike in former games none of these options are safe, you just have to get lucky that you picked the right one against the best players. Honestly it really annoys me and the fact that I like to go offstage a lot or like to go to the ledge to reset situations is the biggest thing hurting my game; I always feel like "this game will be different" but dks ledge options are just so bad that against some characters you will rack up a lot of damage just trying to get back on stage. His best option is jumping in most situations but you can get punished by a lot of neutral attacks that cover that and the other options. Honestly I'm most pissed by his getup attack, so many moves outpriortize it and the hitbox on it is deceivingly small.

Are you kidding me? Down B to land? Nah son, that move is too laggy. Side B, too. And I don't think you can reverse it so that you change your momentum.

 

[Solutionme]

Are you kidding me? Down B to land? Nah son, that move is too laggy. Side B, too. And I don't think you can reverse it so that you change your momentum.

Down b to land on shield yes, just not so much on someone not shielding. At least that's the logical way to go about it.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Are you kidding me? Down B to land? Nah son, that move is too laggy. Side B, too. And I don't think you can reverse it so that you change your momentum.

Lol. You don't know whether it can be reversed and yet you had the audacity to say I was wrong. Git good son.

 

[Solutionme]

Lol. You don't know whether it can be reversed and yet you had the audacity to say I was wrong. Git good son.

Actually now that I think about it, what is DK's best shield break move to land with? It has to be down-b right? It covers good ground area when he does land.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

It doesn't break shields, or do much shield damage at all, when used in the air.

 

[Solutionme]

It doesn't break shields, or do much shield damage at all, when used in the air.

Never knew that actually, that would actually make it so much more better for DK.

 

[Slowchamp]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but, a Down-B (aerial version too) end lag reduction would really make DK a much better character. if not then a base knockback increase would really help if they dont want to reduce its endlag. Down-B is a pretty good move but these buffs would really help against those difficult match-ups. (also Luma should be nerfed so she can be hit by it )

Side-B end lag reduction would also greatly help DK. also id very much enjoy it if DK's aerial Side-B didnt have the hitbox reduced by SOOO much. on the ground Side-B has pretty good range, but in the air its really unsafe because of the endlag and the smaller reach + exposed head hurtbox. Side-B is generally a pretty bad move. its slow and punishable and the risk isnt worth the reward, especially since people are keen to the 90% shield break, which doesnt really cut it anymore. (or make it crazy fast so you can pull it out and KA-DONK! they dont see it coming)

Make Giant-punch safe on the edge or remove free fall.

"Proper" aerial Up-B landing-lag (flex) could definitely be reduced.


and Darkjaws, why are you so complacent with DK's current state? it seems like every time DK gets a buff (mewtwo patch, Ryu patch, and Tourney patch) you are completely ok with that being his final version despite DK still having some glaring weaknesses still. I like reading your posts but the times you say "DK is fine as is" really rustles my jimmies.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

and Darkjaws, why are you so complacent with DK's current state? it seems like every time DK gets a buff (mewtwo patch, Ryu patch, and Tourney patch) you are completely ok with that being his final version despite DK still having some glaring weaknesses still. I like reading your posts but the times you say "DK is fine as is" really rustles my jimmies.

I get it. I do in fact act a little too positively right after a patch, and moments inbetween as well, but I did change my mind at certain points. For example, in the patch before the last where they buffed his cargo downthrow and the damage on cargo upthrow, I initially thought it was no big deal that his cargo upthrow upair was slightly nerfed at later percents. After I actually played a lot of games afterwards I stated that I was really feeling the nerf, as even at low percents I was having trouble getting it.

The only buff remaining that DK needs is a buff on his ledge getup attack. I'm tired of neutral airs outprioritizing it or hitting over it. I also think if forward air is used so close to the ground to where the hitbox doesn't come out that it should autocancel. other than that I disagree with all of the other frame data complaints that others typically like to lodge, I've always disagreed with them and I still do. I think his air moves are all fine, his fsmash is so damn good now, his complaints I had about his usmash in the past have a little less merit to them now that it hits more on the sides and hits every character except the smallest ones when they are standing. His aerial down b is fine although the only small buff i would recommend is a few frames more hitstun if they get hit on stage, as the move itself has sufficient endlag to prevent you from attacking half the time anyway.

If they fixed his ledge getup attack ever so slightly, DK can win multiple tournaments in the right hands. Before I argued that he can win a couple, but now if the right person is playing DK and gets lucky to avoid some of the terrible matchups (zss especially, or greninja in the right hands, or get unlucky vs a pikachu with his soft spike forward or back air) then it's certainly possible. Once I go to more tournaments I'll probably switch off to someone else against those bad matchups (not pikachu though, i LOVE facing pikachu as DK).

 

[Athorment]

The only buff remaining that DK needs is a buff on his ledge getup attack. I'm tired of neutral airs outprioritizing it or hitting over it. I also think if forward air is used so close to the ground to where the hitbox doesn't come out that it should autocancel.

I agree with those two buffs to no end. More than once have i found myself not using the get up attack at all simply because i know how bad it is specially against lingering hitboxes. But even more common than that is an awkwardly spaced forward air where it's about to come out but nope, touched the ground a few frames before it came out and now I find DK wide open with end lags comparable to that as if he had really thrown the move at all. It's just a little weird in characters like Ganondorf too where it just doesn't come out, but they still have less endlag than the 1st member of the DK crew. The heavy hitters would benefit from such forward airs Still coming out regardless, but DK really suffers the most out of all of them.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

if the top of the hitbox still comes out though then it wouldn't autocancel, i'm talking about situations where it clearly had no hope whatsoever of coming out even slightly behind his head, in situations like where you're doing short hop double back air and you actually get turned around by some attack like a luigi fireball, and end up doing a fair instead. you already got hit, and on top of that they get another free hit because of the lag on the ground.

As for neutral airs' lingering hitbox just destroying all of my ledge getup options, half the time that i lost to Mr. R in friendlies was because of this. every option I had was taken care of by neutral air. And his ledge getup has a deceiving hitbox where you would think the arm would hit higher but it doesnt.