Buffs that would make DK a MUCH Better combatant

[Gedden]

Yes I know DK can be lethal! DEF in the hands of a master. DKWill is a great player and master of DK, BUT in some if not half the cast DK has a lot of trouble doing his thing... His hit box is huge so he's easy to combo and his attacks are easy to punish bc for they have a ton of recovery! IF Nintendo decided to buff this character they should do the following...

Back Throw damage and kill duff.
Should kill around 110% - 120% or same as Ness

Up Special recovery reduced by 50%... I mean DK is a big enough target plus his best recovery move has a super long pause at the end even when landed correctly...??

N_air should be a double hit to match the animation. 1st hit should have the same damage/kill properties it has now but the second hit should be half the damage and no kill potential BUT still can be comboed into jab.

F_air should be the same but 30% less recovery time on landing

Back_Air DK's BEST MOVE should receive SLIGHT kill potential boast... Maybe kill at 95%-110%?

F-Smash should have the same armor abilities as Little Mac also larger hitbox (extended towards DK) When an opponent is very close this attach whiffs completely. [if you want to get crazy, there should be wind push back when not hit like Palutena's F-Smash]

Up-Smash hit box should start with the width of DK's hands (similar to his Up-Tilt), in the beginning of the animation but does very little damage. But rest of the attack is the same. As it is now it does nothing until DK smacks his hands together over his head.

If these buffs are implemented correctly and balanced better than what I typed, this would SHOOT DK to mid tier maybe even top 10 possibly


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JUST an IDEA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This is very radical and probably not balanced buff I would LOVE to see DK have!

Down Special changed to Down Tilt but rapid input. Down tilt still exist but 3 taps very fast with give you the two ground pound hit same as before, if continued to taps down attack, it will be the same as tapping down special. This could be comboed from down tilt at low percents only.

Its funny.. The original Mario game, DK throws Barrels at Mario why not replace down B with a slow moving vintage barrel toss??? This would greatly help DK in projectile battles. Of course the damage should low and have a decent amount of recovery attached to it.

What do you guys think?
I just know if Diddy is WAY better and stronger than DK somethings wrong lol

 

[Donkeykong98123]

Honestly if they just would've copy/pasted Brawl DK into this game he'd be perfect. I have 0 idea on why they nerfed him so much.

 

[Gedden]

Honestly if they just would've copy/pasted Brawl DK into this game he'd be perfect. I have 0 idea on why they nerfed him so much.

Me neither.... I think they dont like DK as character or something...

 

[dahuterschuter]

Add hitboxes to his arms on all of his tilts and Smashes instead of just his hands and he'd be one of the best characters in the game.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

I think if they had kept DK the same as brawl except retain the new grounded up special he would have been great. Reducing recovery frames on down B and forward tilt would work wonders in addition to slight range buffs on said moves as well. His side special should be restored to its brawl iteration.

DK struggles because of fundamental changes to smash 4. Increased landing lag really hurts his matchup potential for ranged characters especially since he's so big. Also as mentioned before he's a heavy character making combos easier on him because of his decreased knock back and size. Combos were less guaranteed in brawl making him stronger in his former self.

My theory about DK in smash 4 is that he was pretty strong but somewhere in the development process he got nerfed before the game was released. I used to main him but I have kind of given up on him as I was tired of getting hit by guaranteed follow ups and projectiles. Also always being forced to approach as a slow character is inherently difficult. DK you are still my favorite, but you are no longer my main.

 

[itsaxelol]

seconded to copy and pasting brawls frame data

 

[Zodiacx10]

give him better landing options...i feel like a beach ball being hit up in the air all day with DK

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Better vertical recovery. I want to flirt with death offstage and meteor the **** out of people.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Better vertical recovery. I want to flirt with death offstage and meteor the **** out of people.

Chopper kong

 

[Duplighost]

Does DK's down-special in air Meteor Smash?
If not, that'd be a cool addition to his moveset.

But yeah, I don't really understand why DK was nerfed so much since Brawl. I don't like DK too much, but I think some minor changes can make him a much better character.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Was extensively nerfed but so was everyone else pretty much, the only things I really miss about brawl Dk is his down smash and his back kick that went off in the last few frames before he landed :D, I abused the **** out of that probably more than any other Dk, at least much more than will ever did.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Chopper kong

It sucks vertically.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

It sucks vertically.

While its lack of vertical trajectory might seem like a big weakness at first, it's what compensates for its fantastic horizontal utility. DK can run off stage deep near the edge of the screen and gimp while still making it back. Its actually a better offstage weapon then his fair, dair, or down special in many instances because of how far you can go off stage and how unexpected it is.

Overall DK has one of the best up specials in the game because of its versatility on and off stage. However, other moves in his move set need to be buffed to move him up past low tier.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Ay breh they are referring to chopper kong not kong cyclone.

 

[Falco_Phantasm]

Up-Throw has less knockback and can combo into his aerials

 

[SafCar]

Does DK's down-special in air Meteor Smash?
If not, that'd be a cool addition to his moveset.

But yeah, I don't really understand why DK was nerfed so much since Brawl. I don't like DK too much, but I think some minor changes can make him a much better character.

The second hit does meteor smash in mid-air, but the best part about down special is the reversal you can pull off.

 

[Luigi player]

What I'd like to see:
- Fix his giant punch charging
Not 11 swings to fully charge, please (even though it's already full after 10.......), and if I do one swing when I have the time and cancel it I want it to add up.

- Dash attack with less startup (hitbox comes out a little earlier)
Seriously, oftentimes it's better to just go for something else, because it is a little laggy and the hitbox comes out so slow that it's better to go for a different move instead (dash grab / shieldgrab / grounded upB).

- Bigger hitbox on some moves, especially jab and ftilt
Jabs used to have more range (in Brawl) and you don't hit opponents that are really near... this is really annoying and just today I died cuz I missed my jabs while my opponent was standing almost inside of me. They should hit a little closer to DK.
Ftilt's wind effect and hand can't hit the opponent, which makes it look to have more range than it actually has. In Brawl this move was godlike, but now the lack of range really makes it worse and dtilt is most of the time a better alternative.
Other moves who could use this treatment would be fsmash (hit closer to DK and a little further), dair (why is this move SO hard to hit with, or is it just me?), maybe bair.

- Don't fall off the stage while getting your giant punch blocked while having your back face the ledge and not being able to grab the ledge
This takes away DKs giant punch option in case you're cornered, where DK would REALLY need it! It's always very scary for me being in this sitation, because I know I could SD if I don't watch out.

- Less landing lag for the "perfect landing" with upB
It's too unrewarding to get it right and is a little too unsafe for DK to really take advantage from. He needs all the tools he can get to get back to the ground somewhat safely! His custom upB really shows how useful and needed this is.

- Give dthrow less lag
Maybe give him back his dthrow -> ftilt / dthrow -> dtilt combos from Brawl? That would be nice. He's one of the only characters who doesn't get combos out of his throws. I know he has cargo utoss -> uair, but still... :/

- More killpower for some moves
DKs dsmash is pretty bad now. It was phenomenal in Brawl.... give it the hitbox above back, make it hit in the other direction like in Brawl, and give it more killpower. Fsmash isn't as strong as you'd think as well. Especially uncharged. DK is one of the weaker heavy weights in terms of killpower... this sucks.

- Make aerial downB more useful
A little faster, less endinglag, much less landing lag... this move is basically useless.

- Maybe make it so that DK isn't able to airdodge if you cancel his giant punch charge in the air (you can still airdodge if you press shield twice, but not once)
This is annoying... yeah if you know the rhythm you can avoid it. It's only a very small part of the charge where you airdodge if you cancel it during that time, but it can still happen easily, especially in the heat of a fight where you must choose where you stop charging on your vertical position correctly.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I'd love to see Cargo down throw more useful. Speaking of, does anyone have any prerelease footage of how that move looked during E3 up to Comicon?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Cargo down throw as a stage spike is useful. It's regular down throw that is ****, even up throw is largely crap because of the lag.

 

[Brickbox]

You guys think there is any hope of some stuff being fixed in the patch coming up? We need to make some noise so they know dk truly needs to be fixed. He doesn't need buffed, just the stupid stuff fixed.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Ok I think I'll finally have my say given that I think by this point I've learned all there is to know about Dk and his matchups. I have to say that although there are a few stupid things like fsmash and ftilt whiffing, they really aren't big deals because as always becoming experienced means you adapt to everything. I almost never whiff fsmash because of the way I use it, and I frankly don't care about ftilt missing as I can spam moves after the first miss. As for all the recommendations and comments made above, I really don't agree with any of it. Even down throw and up throw sucking isn't a big deal to me, as I think that some creativity that requires good reads and experience for me trumps all, and is what I appreciate.

There are only two things Dk absolutely needs in order to be a strong character in his own right: increases knockback on usmash and dsmash, as in previous iterations of the game. It's ridiculous that the % difference between usmash and the strong part of utilt killing is 30% or so. Usmash and now dsmash are not easy moves to connect on (especially dsmash now) and requires one play with reads and to an extent play defensively, and it's disappointing that a successful read now does not result in a kill at 80-100%. DK was already nerfed extensively wrt any combo potential for example on his cargo up throw or his down throw, and his moves whiff and have plenty of lag in them, and Dk cannot get out of many combos. As a DK player and main I cannot accept that he was also nerfed in his knockback, even if knockback was nerfed on a whole cast of characters. I can live with all of the nerfs, most of which I can agree needed to be done, and even with the dumb whiffs. If up smash and down smash get back to where they need to be, as they were both in sb64 and brawl, (melee I frankly don't remember but bet it had the strength it did in 64) then Dk would be a balanced character overall. And Nintendo and sakurai: I know that you gave Dk an extra spike in down+b in the air, and gave him the ability to break shields, but these simply do not compensate enough for the nerfs overall. If you simply gave Dk the same kind of knockback up smash and down smash had in sb64 (just the knockback, you can keep the nerf on down smash from brawl) he would instantly have the ability to beat the characters that can combo and juggle him to death.

I honestly think Nintendo sees the info on Dk with their data from for glory, and see that he may need something or other. So I ask that all Dk mains please get behind a proposal for us to have a clear explanation on why usmash and dsmash need to be buffed, given the totality of Dk as a character, including buffs and nerfs from prior games. I think if we pushed this alone without all of our other moaning and crying that the patch team just may listen to us. I'll write something up when I'm on a computer and not this cell phone that expands on what I said above.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Ok I think I'll finally have my say given that I think by this point I've learned all there is to know about Dk and his matchups. I have to say that although there are a few stupid things like fsmash and ftilt whiffing, they really aren't big deals because as always becoming experienced means you adapt to everything. I almost never whiff fsmash because of the way I use it, and I frankly don't care about ftilt missing as I can spam moves after the first miss. As for all the recommendations and comments made above, I really don't agree with any of it. Even down throw and up throw sucking isn't a big deal to me, as I think that some creativity that requires good reads and experience for me trumps all, and is what I appreciate.

There are only two things Dk absolutely needs in order to be a strong character in his own right: increases knockback on usmash and dsmash, as in previous iterations of the game. It's ridiculous that the % difference between usmash and the strong part of utilt killing is 30% or so. Usmash and now dsmash are not easy moves to connect on (especially dsmash now) and requires one play with reads and to an extent play defensively, and it's disappointing that a successful read now does not result in a kill at 80-100%. DK was already nerfed extensively wrt any combo potential for example on his cargo up throw or his down throw, and his moves whiff and have plenty of lag in them, and Dk cannot get out of many combos. As a DK player and main I cannot accept that he was also nerfed in his knockback, even if knockback was nerfed on a whole cast of characters. I can live with all of the nerfs, most of which I can agree needed to be done, and even with the dumb whiffs. If up smash and down smash get back to where they need to be, as they were both in sb64 and brawl, (melee I frankly don't remember but bet it had the strength it did in 64) then Dk would be a balanced character overall. And Nintendo and sakurai: I know that you gave Dk an extra spike in down+b in the air, and gave him the ability to break shields, but these simply do not compensate enough for the nerfs overall. If you simply gave Dk the same kind of knockback up smash and down smash had in sb64 (just the knockback, you can keep the nerf on down smash from brawl) he would instantly have the ability to beat the characters that can combo and juggle him to death.

I honestly think Nintendo sees the info on Dk with their data from for glory, and see that he may need something or other. So I ask that all Dk mains please get behind a proposal for us to have a clear explanation on why usmash and dsmash need to be buffed, given the totality of Dk as a character, including buffs and nerfs from prior games. I think if we pushed this alone without all of our other moaning and crying that the patch team just may listen to us. I'll write something up when I'm on a computer and not this cell phone that expands on what I said above.

I don't agree at all. DK's knockback is fine. His f smash knockback is almost irrelevant given that higher tiered opponents are too quick to be hit by it. You have to have a rare opportunity to use f smash. D smash is faster and could use a slight knockback buff but that's not what lies at the center of what's wrong with DK.

The real issue with DK is in the area of his ability to make an approach without a huge amount of risk. His moves are heavy on starting and ending lag and lack range. Moves like f tilt should not be that laggy. His issue is not that his moves lack power, it's that it's too difficult to make them connect to begin with.

 

[Brickbox]

Yeah, we def lack in the frame data department. I'd take great frame data over more power any day.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Yeah, we def lack in the frame data department. I'd take great frame data over more power any day.

Absolutely. Stringing together normals in Melee and Brawl was so much easier.

I guess over all I'd like to see:

1 - Better Frame Data(thats really broad but I'll just leave it at that).
2 - Cargo Throw in all it's directions having more use, especially downward.
3 - Mid Air down B being able to connect to a grounded down B seamlessly.

I know it's easy to get lazy but post something on Miiverse, post it here and lets share the yeahs and hope it gets somewhat popular. Let's create a fake debate about it to get a massive amount of replies to get others to notice it as well.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Yeah you clearly don't get it. Sakurai clearly made characters different for a reason, he made dks frame data in this game worse but compensated by providing with an extra down b spike and shield breakers. He's experimenting, but it doesn't compensate for the frame data nerf. And I'll tell you, he absolutely will not change those at all, because if he changed the frame data he would convince himself that he'd have to also redesign his shield breakers, and he won't do that. I've gotten to a certain point with Dk that I know if he had that extra killing power that he would turn Into the sb64 version of himself, which quite frankly was the best version of Dk that ever existed. And with dks nerfs in the frame data department and his ability to get easily juggled, those buffs to knockback will easily catapult him back to the top, no matter your complaints about Dk being unable to approach. And I'll tell you, if knockback was increased, they'll worry about approaching you as well. Think about it: a character that has difficulty approaching and gets juggled easily, but that has serious killing power and shield breaker with a variety of moves, making him at least a little more scary to approach.

I should also mention that sakurai or someone else who has been on the development team hates DK and always has. They nerfed him so badly from sb64 to melee that it's really embarrassing, and we are honestly lucky he was as good as he was in brawl, because of the fact they realized just how bad they made him in melee.

 

[Wintropy]

My brother, who plays a lot of DK, suggested heavy armour.

Thoughts?

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Yeah you clearly don't get it. Sakurai clearly made characters different for a reason, he made dks frame data in this game worse but compensated by providing with an extra down b spike and shield breakers. He's experimenting, but it doesn't compensate for the frame data nerf. And I'll tell you, he absolutely will not change those at all, because if he changed the frame data he would convince himself that he'd have to also redesign his shield breakers, and he won't do that. I've gotten to a certain point with Dk that I know if he had that extra killing power that he would turn Into the sb64 version of himself, which quite frankly was the best version of Dk that ever existed. And with dks nerfs in the frame data department and his ability to get easily juggled, those buffs to knockback will easily catapult him back to the top, no matter your complaints about Dk being unable to approach. And I'll tell you, if knockback was increased, they'll worry about approaching you as well. Think about it: a character that has difficulty approaching and gets juggled easily, but that has serious killing power and shield breaker with a variety of moves, making him at least a little more scary to approach.

I should also mention that sakurai or someone else who has been on the development team hates DK. They nerfed him so badly from sb64 to melee that it's really embarrassing, and we are honestly lucky he was as good as he was in brawl, because of the fact they realized just how bad they made him in melee.

I think it's interesting that you think that somehow if we could cut and paste 64 DK into smash 4 he would be great. It really shows a lack of understanding about the way the games have changed. what makes a character good in 64 is vastly different than what makes a character good in Smash 4.

Just look at the best characters in melee, brawl, and Smash 4. They are not high tiered because of the amount of knockback that they have. Characters are high tiered for a variety of reasons including combo ability, high reward/low risk attacks, approach options, and a versatile move set. The current DK does not do well in any of those areas. The one area he does better than most other characters is actually knockback! With more knockback he's still a mostly 1 dimensional character. Yes his side b 'can' shield break and his down b 'can' shield break but those moves have a very high risk of not connecting or are very situational.

Just look at D3 and Bowser. Despite tremendous knockback they're still probably mid tier. Knockback is only a part of what makes them strong characters anyway. Bowser has a fairly versatile move set and D3 as well.

In order to make DK a more viable character he needs multi dimensional buffs to his combo game and his frame data as well as an increased ability to attack without leaving himself extremely open. Those factors are pretty much the common denominator between all good characters in smash since melee.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I think that a lot of the issues with DK come from his general moveset. You can give all of his moves more percent damage or more knockback, but he'd still have the same problems. I do think the recovery time on his up b is unreasonable, and I think his aerial cargo throw should actually throw characters in the direction shown. That'd probably never happen, it sounds like a DK player did terrible things to the development team before release.

 

[Big O]

Honestly if they just fixed all of the "anti-jank" DK has, I'd be happy. Stuff like punching shields near the ledge KO'ing yourself, all the random unnecessary whiffing on Fsmash/Ftilt/Jab/etc., the weak ghost hit on the punch, the landing pose and unreliable multi-hit of the default Up B, the glitched punch charging behavior, and random moves like Jab/Ftilt being unsafe on hit at low %'s. If they got rid of all that crap, I feel like he would be in a good spot. He'd probably still need more buffs to be on the same level as like ZSS/Sonic/Fox, but I doubt he will get buffed that drastically.

The only knockback nerf that really bothered me was Usmash. I was okay with the nerfed Dsmash after realizing that Brawl Dsmash with rage would've KO'd people at like 70%, but Usmash just feels too weak for how hard it is to land.

I'm half expecting Kong Cyclone to get butchered, so maybe they will give him some buffs to compensate for nerfing it. Hopefully they fix his default Up B at least. Maybe Chopper Kong won't be a joke anymore lol.

 

[itsaxelol]

Honestly if they just fixed all of the "anti-jank" DK has, I'd be happy. Stuff like punching shields near the ledge KO'ing yourself, all the random unnecessary whiffing on Fsmash/Ftilt/Jab/etc., the weak ghost hit on the punch, the landing pose and unreliable multi-hit of the default Up B, the glitched punch charging behavior, and random moves like Jab/Ftilt being unsafe on hit at low %'s. If they got rid of all that crap, I feel like he would be in a good spot. He'd probably still need more buffs to be on the same level as like ZSS/Sonic/Fox, but I doubt he will get buffed that drastically.

The only knockback nerf that really bothered me was Usmash. I was okay with the nerfed Dsmash after realizing that Brawl Dsmash with rage would've KO'd people at like 70%, but Usmash just feels too weak for how hard it is to land.

I'm half expecting Kong Cyclone to get butchered, so maybe they will give him some buffs to compensate for nerfing it. Hopefully they fix his default Up B at least. Maybe Chopper Kong won't be a joke anymore lol.

been a while since ive been on here. had midterms for a few weeks and wasnt around, then been at the mewtwo boards last few days

i agree with the first paragraph. and i still havent gotten over usmash and dsmash nerfs. i fully expect kong cyclone to take a hit

but realistically i dont see them doing anything noteworthy to DK. he will probably be bypassed again. i dont think they want to give him more killpower (which, crazy as it is to say, DK lacks in this game compared to other heavies) because of his mobility. and i dont think they ever mess with active frames and hitboxes unless something is real messed up. idk. i hope DK gets a few good buffs. i would love if they just fixed him like you said, though

 

[Yong Dekonk]

been a while since ive been on here. had midterms for a few weeks and wasnt around, then been at the mewtwo boards last few days

i agree with the first paragraph. and i still havent gotten over usmash and dsmash nerfs. i fully expect kong cyclone to take a hit

but realistically i dont see them doing anything noteworthy to DK. he will probably be bypassed again. i dont think they want to give him more killpower (which, crazy as it is to say, DK lacks in this game compared to other heavies) because of his mobility. and i dont think they ever mess with active frames and hitboxes unless something is real messed up. idk. i hope DK gets a few good buffs. i would love if they just fixed him like you said, though

I can see DK getting bypassed like you said despite the fact his move set needs attention.

The extent of this next patch is hard to predict. I think Sakurai's too prideful to actually change a majority of the characters even though most need adjustments. Sakurai has stated he doesn't focus on making games for the competetive community.

If he buffs DK he would probably just be reversing nerfs that occurred during development and I'm not sure he is willing to make those kind of adjustments. Anyway, I have hope DK will get minor buffs since he didn't receive anything in the last patch but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

@ Yong Dekonk I know the difference between sb64 and other games, you're just misinterpreting my comment.

As I said, dsmash and up smash buffs are the only things we need to ask for (dsmash weaker than brawl dsmash but stronger than it is now, and up smash buffed to where it was in all prior smash games) though I will say the unreliable multihit of his up+b on the ground really bothers me more than any of the whiffs, they could change that at the least.

I think that a lot of the issues with DK come from his general moveset. You can give all of his moves more percent damage or more knockback, but he'd still have the same problems. I do think the recovery time on his up b is unreasonable, and I think his aerial cargo throw should actually throw characters in the direction shown. That'd probably never happen, it sounds like a DK player did terrible things to the development team before release.

I disagree, you can say that he'd have the same problems but in the hands of an expert Dk player that increased knockback could make the difference between a win and a loss.

 

[dahuterschuter]

-Megaman's usmash scoops
-Captain Falcon's usmash scoops
-DK, who literally makes a scooping motion with both giant-ass arms during his usmash to clap his hands together, does not scoop

If I could ask for one buff...

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Actually shulks up smash scoops, which I find the funniest. But he needs it, shulk as a character needs all the help he can get.

 

[Zodiacx10]

-Megaman's usmash scoops
-Captain Falcon's usmash scoops
-DK, who literally makes a scooping motion with both giant-*** arms during his usmash to clap his hands together, does not scoop

If I could ask for one buff...

this is really a problem. its so hard to hit with his upsmash that you might as well not even use it. his side smash seems to like miss if you're too close to DK aswell

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Being able to put your shield up immediately when charging your Giant Punch would be nice. Lucario can, Samus can, Mewtwo most likely will so why not DK? I hate that I can see an attack coming but I can't power shield it in time because cancelling the Punch's animation takes too long.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Can F Air please, please be Brawl F Air..? I can't stand the move any more!

 

[Braydon]

If I got to pick one thing I'd make it so his up special when used on the ground either deflected or reflected projectiles, since he has a hard time with projectiles. Other than that I'd like to see some priority increases and of course a faster Fair.

 

[Superbat]

Is the ssb4 Donkey Kong page just fradulent then? www.ssbwiki.com/Donkey_Kong_(SSB4) The site makes it seem like he gots buffs and little to no nerfs. @ Yong Dekonk dam I never knew. Thx for telling me

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Is the ssb4 Donkey Kong page just fradulent then? www.ssbwiki.com/Donkey_Kong_(SSB4) The site makes it seem like he gots buffs and little to no nerfs.

The site's analysis is not very thorough. To non DK mains he might seem better than he was in Brawl. The site doesn't talk about nerfs to range of f tilt, increases in lag time on f tilt and down special, massive nerf to knockback upon successful side special, nerfs to up smash, side smash, and down smash hit boxes and decreases in knockback. They also screwed up his fair and the hit box on dair as well as duration of bair.