Britches and Hose Mafia - Game Over!

[Kantrip]

What do you honestly think Swiss is that made him target Sokr? Indy what?

 

[Gova]

1. adumbrodeus (1) Sokr
2. John2k4 ()
4. Sokr ()
5. Kantrip ()
8. Swiss (1) adumbrodeus
10. Felipe_9595 ()
11. July ()
12. Asdioh (2) Kantrip, Felipe

Not voting - Joh2k4, Swiss, July, Asdioh

With 8 playing, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is December 13th at 11:59 PM CST (GMT-6).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Assuming I'm not paranoid and Sword's ability were to be used, then we do have enough to confirm people. Sure, maybe not on our own, but working together.

You're still suggesting the most absurd things.

Assuming you're not paranoid is still a very big if.

Giving mafia a role that explicitly screws your ability over is a also a way to eliminate this possibility.

The latter is further made more likely by RR's actions.


Again, if you needed a power-heavy town in a situation with partial flips so therefore things were a great deal harder to confirm, what types of roles would you replace it with?

What do you honestly think Swiss is that made him target Sokr? Indy what?

There are more indy roles then there are stars in the sky, and new ones pop up every day. A marker of some type is the only one which really sticks out as a good possibility, albeit a risky one.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Basically my point is that he's displaying clear survival mentality, not that I have a particular role in mind.


He's worried about an town asdioh flip, even though two town roleblockers are impossible in a small game because that would prove his lie, so instead he tries to convince a newbie town that it's possible and takes advantage of my lack of confidence in my abilities and weaker persuasion skills to do it.


He spins an eleborate tale to make it work and makes it sound good, but it only sounds good cause HE'S SWISS, it has no real evidence to back up the existence of a re-director.

Nor has he even touched on what a re-director would do to the n2 actions.


Swiss is scum folks.

 

[Swiss]

I don't know what i laughed harder at

He's worried about an town asdioh flip, even though two town roleblockers are impossible in a small game because that would prove his lie, so instead he tries to convince a newbie town that it's possible and takes advantage of my lack of confidence in my abilities and weaker persuasion skills to do it.

The pathetic AtE

He spins an eleborate tale to make it work and makes it sound good, but it only sounds good cause HE'S SWISS, it has no real evidence to back up the existence of a re-director.

Or the "SWISS IS SO GOOD YOU ALL BELIEVE HIM, BUT YOU SHOUDLN'T"

Adum, man. Brah.

U desperate.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's not an ATE, it's a logical explanation as to why you can make absolute BS smell pretty.

The core of my argument is that your role analysis is absolutely unfounded bull. Strawman me all you want dude, it doesn't change the core issues.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Let me just TLDR what I'm trying to get across here:

1. I'm not asking you to vote swiss based my statements of swiss' superiority at persuasion, I'm asking you desperately to read carefully and see for yourselves. It should be evident.

2. Twin town roleblockers makes absolutely no sense, especially in a game that's already going to be incredibly confusing to town. Giving town that second roleblocker would merely handicap town.

3. The gigantic redirector leap that swiss is pushing has no evidence whatsoever, nor has he provided any concrete reason as to why. It only exists for swiss to explain why there's not a scum roleblocker making 3 roleblockers in a single small game, which is honestly no more unlikely then 2 roleblockers of the same side. Hell, far more likely if they were of three totally different alignments.




There are other issues as well, but those are behavioral, these are the core issues as to why his assertion makes no sense.

 

[Kantrip]

Adum. You claim to have tracked Swiss. You say he targeted Sokr. He didn't claim this, but said that you would do it for him. Two reasons:

As town he is getting you to prove your role, even though he already knew it.

As scum of some sort he made a situation where he wouldn't have to reveal his target unless he has to by making adum do it. That way, if adum is lying or gambling about his tracker claim Swiss can still potentially lie about his result.

The biggest flaw in adum's explanation is the hole where Sword's roleblock is. Another scum roleblocker is the only way this makes sense at this point. Adum thinks it's another player who claimed VT, but what if it's Asdioh who is the scum roleblocker?

Scum is within Swiss/adum/July/Asdioh. We are lynching between Swiss/adum/Asdioh toDay.

July, weigh in.

JOHN2K4, WEIGH IN.

Oh yeah, John is in the scumpool as well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As a final note, I love the old "lynching me will show connections" line, perfect excuse to lynch somebody without making an actual case about their scummyness. At this point there is nobody that we could not lynch that will not show substantial connections, so why me?


Cause swiss is caught.

He can't lynch Asdioh toDay because that would prove he's scum.

My claim disproves his assertion that he got redirected.

If I die, on my flip he'll simply be able to say "omg, then what's asdioh doing here" and you will have merely created two lynches when swiss lying was the obvious answer in the beginning. That's why he said 3 is impossible but not 2 of the same side.


He's playing you, so think, and then make the right decision.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The biggest flaw in adum's explanation is the hole where Sword's roleblock is. Another scum roleblocker is the only way this makes sense at this point. Adum thinks it's another player who claimed VT, but what if it's Asdioh who is the scum roleblocker?

I never said it was impossible, I just doubt it. He behavior surrounding the claim and following it make a hell of a lot more sense.

 

[Swiss]

Adum you skipped the part where your 'case' made sense.

 

[Swiss]

unvote vote adum
Lynch Adum.

If he's town, pinch my nipples and lynch me. Sokr can even shoot me if he wants (srsly don't though)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum you skipped the part where your 'case' made sense.

You skipped the part where there's any evidence that a re-director exists at all. Or what that would apply for anything.


This says that it's a naked attempt to simply get me lynched because you don't want to want to deal with asdioh's CC directly until lylo. My track is the other weak link for you, and you want it closed.


You have provided no other reason for believing I'm scum beyond the fact that I'm attacking you, nor have you explained why the case doesn't make sense.


This is obviously just nakedly survivalistic, and survivalistic in the sense that you know you'll be proven wrong but want to delay until being proven wrong no longer matters.

 

[Swiss]

Funny how the guy CC'ing me believes me.

Gawd. He must be dumb, right?

 

[Swiss]

Wait, you're saying I'm going to try and "deal with Asdioh's CC in LyLo".

Is that a tacit admission that lynching you and July, will get me (who you think Indie, I understand) to LyLo? Is that then an implication that you are scum, and that as July is my other target - she is too?

Your thought process couldn't have taken that track unless you KNEW lynching you would remove mafia LyLo'ing us sooner.

Also, I'm curious as to why you think anyone would believe me if I suddenly switched on Asdioh, since I'm saying two town RB'ers IS possible.

Step it up. You were slick early game. Stuck like a fat kid in toffee now.

Try and eat your way out, fattie.

 

[Swiss]

I am LOVING this game at the moment.

We went from full ****** to **** getting real in just 24 hours.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Funny how the guy CC'ing me believes me.

Gawd. He must be dumb, right?

No, just not realizing how stupid two town RBs are.

Wait, you're saying I'm going to try and "deal with Asdioh's CC in LyLo".

Is that a tacit admission that lynching you and July, will get me (who you think Indie, I understand) to LyLo? Is that then an implication that you are scum, and that as July is my other target - she is too?

Your thought process couldn't have taken that track unless you KNEW lynching you would remove mafia LyLo'ing us sooner.

Also, I'm curious as to why you think anyone would believe me if I suddenly switched on Asdioh, since I'm saying two town RB'ers IS possible.

Step it up. You were slick early game. Stuck like a fat kid in toffee now.

Try and eat your way out, fattie.

No, I expect you to attempt to duck the issue, try to create alternative explanations.

And then in the end, at your lylo, whatever it may be, you get Asdioh lynched for your claim.


Yes, I completely expect you to be able to lead town completely by the nose if you lynch me today until that point.

 

[Sokr]

Unvote
Vote Swiss

This is starting to make sense to me.

 

[felipe_9595]

I am LOVING this game at the moment.

We went from full ****** to **** getting real in just 24 hours.

My gambit whasnt that ******** after huh At least we got something out of it.

 

[Asdioh]

I was saying that he wasn't redirected. Initially this whole thing made me suspect you were scum, but given swiss' stubborn refusal to let it be the 1v1 that it so obviously is when he knows better, it points quite strongly to swiss-scum.

Ok so... you're saying that thanks to our claims, one of Swiss or I is definitely scum? And you're saying it's ok for me to think it's possible we're both town roleblockers, but Swiss should know better so you think he's trying to play off the fact that he fakeclaimed poorly?

 

[Sokr]

My gambit whasnt that ******** after huh At least we got something out of it.

We did? What? I thought it was full ******. Never go full ******.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok so... you're saying that thanks to our claims, one of Swiss or I is definitely scum? And you're saying it's ok for me to think it's possible we're both town roleblockers, but Swiss should know better so you think he's trying to play off the fact that he fakeclaimed poorly?

Exactly.


He is correct that partial flips does change the situation, it certainly does mean should be more powerful relative to scum then normal.

1. It does not suggest that repeats of the same role in town is possible.

2. Nor does it suggest that a double role, if it existed, would a role increases the confusion so much in an already confusing game.


Nothing about the mechanics support two such anti-town things appearing in a game that's already leaning incredibly scum. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Asdioh]

Hardest lynch of my life. My head hurts, work today sucked EVERY BALLS because OH BY THE WAY it's triple coupon weekend ;3333333333 (i work at a grocery store)
and then people bring LITERALLY A BILLION coupons in because economy or some crap rant rant rant


I need to look over it some more, but I'm thinking an Adum lynch toDay. The fact that he thinks Swiss is indy just doesn't fly with me, he really does look like he's getting desperate. The only person I can see being indy is Sokr, and that's only by necessary process of elimination and the fact that he has a proven non-mafia kill.


Swiss, if Adum flips town, that will confirm that you visited Sokr on N1, and it means that the Swords roleblock is still unaccounted for.
...I wanted to say "if adum flips town, I am lynching the hell out of you" but now I don't even know.



I want to look over adum and stuff some more, and probably look over the massclaim again.


@Sokr: if we lynch Adum and he flips town, I suggest you Protect whoever you want, or alternatively, vig the hell out of either Swiss or John. How do you feel about that?


Hey Adum, what if two town roleblockers was a counter to, say, a serial killer?

Also, how do you feel about me literally flipping a coin between you and Swiss?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why does it seem desperate?


And no, I want you to read and see the holes in what he's trying to push and think about why what he's proposing is so ridiculously anti-town that there's no way it's possible for him to think that it's true in a game with normal flips, let alone with a game as anti-town as partial flips.

 

[Asdioh]

What if scum has a role like they did in D.gray Man where they can force someone to use their power on someone?
What if they forced me to target Swords N1?

 

[Kantrip]

Swiss what drove you to target Sokr, anyways?

 

[Sokr]

@Asdioh

Would you not be informed if that happened?

 

[Asdioh]

No Sokr, you're generally not informed of stuff like that. The only way you're informed that your action was unusual is if you have a night action that gets results back, such as cop or tracker, and you get roleblocked.

1-50: Swiss lynch
51-100: Adum lynch

**** I got 29

 

[Kantrip]

I agree with that "coin flip". This roleblocker thing is going to continue to be a pain.

I'm lingering on the possibility of trackers having a "gun" flavour wise and me being sane. Why this isn't thw most logical conclusion to begin with is just me denying Occam's Razor.

Waiting for the answer as to why Swiss targeted Sokr with a roleblock.

 

[Asdioh]

My butt is frustrated because I keep thinking about how ridiculously scummy John's slot is. Like, I'm looking at his slot, and all I see is a trail of slime that starts at the beginning of the game. The problem is, despite the fact that he's the most blatantly scummy person to me, we have other craziness going on, and if he happens to flip town then we're pretty much back at square one. -_-

 

[adumbrodeus]

No Sokr, you're generally not informed of stuff like that. The only way you're informed that your action was unusual is if you have a night action that gets results back, such as cop or tracker, and you get roleblocked.

1-50: Swiss lynch
51-100: Adum lynch

**** I got 29

Asdioh, why the **** you putting this on a coin flip?


Seriously.


Tell me why you thing I'm desperate because I believe him to be indy and not mafia.

 

[Asdioh]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13774210&postcount=1502
Something about this post just came off as scummy to me.
I don't know, I'm trying to make sense of the middle lines but I can't. Do you think Swiss roleblocked Sword or not? If you do, how, since you yourself said he visited Sokr on that night? If not, why is he scum?

Yes I know we're going in circles, we've been doing that ever since the massclaim.

Swiss has had a townread on me pretty much all game. He even suggested that I claim last. Do you think Swiss, as town roleblocker, would have instantly tried to lynch me once he saw me 'counterclaim?' Or would he be careful about this, as either alignment?

 

[felipe_9595]

We did? What? I thought it was full ******. Never go full ******.

The guy who vigged n1 is calling me ********. Funny.

Did we lost anything whit that ******** claim? no. Did we won something?? Reads, better than nothing.

 

[Kantrip]

Scum picked the same person, so we didn't lose anything anyways.

Felipe the sheep, wilt thou sheepth me unto a Swiss wagon?

 

[felipe_9595]

Well, we have been stuck in the same argument since the beggining so.

inb4 the mod didnt see my Replacement request

 

[felipe_9595]

Hi Red Ryu :3

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13774210&postcount=1502
Something about this post just came off as scummy to me.
I don't know, I'm trying to make sense of the middle lines but I can't. Do you think Swiss roleblocked Sword or not? If you do, how, since you yourself said he visited Sokr on that night? If not, why is he scum?

Yes I know we're going in circles, we've been doing that ever since the massclaim.

No he did not roleblock swords, i saw him visit sokr.


The issue is his assertions post-claim, that two townblockers is not only possible but likely. Of course three total roleblockers is downright silly according to him.

The mechanical differences only add substantially to the confusion, that he would assert that town would have double of a role, let alone double of a role that increases confusion in the game is silly.

Letting alone the role's attributes, because double roles aren't put into setups that are not extremely large under pretty much any conditions it would almost guarantee double lynches on the people who received the role.


There's no doubt he knows this. If he actually is a town roleblocker he would know that you are scum. Still he doesn't push you, why? Because you could flip town and if he lets it become a 1v1 he's screwed on your townflip.


So what does he have to do? Make town believe this ridiculous BS about there being two roleblockers.


This is especially illustrated by how hard he's pushing the "there aren't three roleblockers line", drawing a line on the max possible makes it sound much more reasonable and furthermore makes it possible for him to net my lynch on the side because of "connections", giving him an extra day's lynch.

The problem is that the problem isn't really total number of roleblockers. It's having more then one as town due to the fact that it nearly guarantees both will die upon MC. Having 3 different roleblockers of completely different factions, while silly and difficult to balance, is possible in a small game (but very unlikely due to the inherent anti-towness of partial flips). The only way to balance multiple town roleblockers is just to assume that town wastes two days lynching them.




Swiss is scum because we do not have a second roleblocker, he isn't mafia because I do not believe there is any mafia role that would benefit from picking sokr unless he died because it would be difficult to draw connections from his play due to how noobish it was.

I could see for example, a marker. Gambling on sokr's ability to survive till endgame because he was generally inocuous and held as town by me and suspicious by swiss.

How did he realize that he wasn't gonna be cc'd? (I reread and realized he claimed roleblocker before sokr reveal) He gambled based on presuming that there were no other investigative roles to claim (given that we had 3 it was logical), or had a read on sokr.



TL;DR: Swiss is scum because the double town roleblockers DOES NOT WORK. Especially not in this game. He's not mafia because his NK target makes no sense for a mafia pr role but does make sense for some indy roles.

Swiss has had a townread on me pretty much all game. He even suggested that I claim last. Do you think Swiss, as town roleblocker, would have instantly tried to lynch me once he saw me 'counterclaim?' Or would he be careful about this, as either alignment?

Lynch you as a counter-claim.


If town was dumb, he'd would hold up and attempt to extract as much information as possible from you and everyone's reactions to you, but he would have you lynched.

There's no way he'd believe that there were 2 town roleblockers in a small game, let alone one with partial flips.

 

[Kantrip]

Swiss could have read Sokr as a PR, potentially. Saying mafia would have no reason to target Sokr if he didn't die isn't true necessarily.

There are better things to fabricate than roleblocker, which makes me believe Swiss is a scum roleblocker and stuck with his claim to play it safe as he knew adum tracked him and he didn't know if Sokr knew he was RB'd.

Vote Swiss

 

[adumbrodeus]

Swiss could have read Sokr as a PR, potentially. Saying mafia would have no reason to target Sokr if he didn't die isn't true necessarily.

There are better things to fabricate than roleblocker, which makes me believe Swiss is a scum roleblocker and stuck with his claim to play it safe as he knew adum tracked him and he didn't know if Sokr knew he was RB'd.

Vote Swiss

But that doesn't explain swords being roleblocked. I think he only picked a roleblocker because he did not expect to be cc'd.

 

[Kantrip]

Swords being roleblocked is explained by...

DUNH DUNH DUNH

Another anti-town roleblocker.