Britches and Hose Mafia - Game Over!

[Asdioh]

Think about it. Adum doesn't need to be a tracker. He got Swiss to target Sokr (I think that's what the morse code crap is telling me), and then he (or July or RR) is a redirector and redirected Swiss's block to Swords. Sokr and scum both targeted Ryker and we have no proof the roleblock went through to Sokr. I'm betting it didn't.

The morse code crap was Adum saying "Swiss, I saw you visit Sokr last night." He's either the town/mafia tracker and really saw townswiss visit Sokr (how else would he know) or he and swiss are scummates and decided to do elaborate faking.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, let me make this clear.


Swiss targeted sokr n1, I see no reason for a scum role to target him unless he died, it did not make sense.


If sokr target ryker and scum didn't, we're still missing a kill. Asdioh claimed no rb on n1 and swiss targeted sokr unless somebody got redirected into targeting. Add that to the fact that ryker was a really attractive scumkill n1 (power player, just replaced in so had no connections, unlikely doc target cause people didn't have time to develop reads).


Also, I don't think kantrip is paranoid, I'll explain as soon as i get internet access again.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Basically, I think RR knew there was a gunsmith, which suggests a scum role that counters it somehow.

 

[Swiss]

Basically, I think RR knew there was a gunsmith, which suggests a scum role that counters it somehow.

How?

The thought never even crossed my mind.

 

[Asdioh]

VT (JTB)
VT (Ryker)
VT? (Soup)
VT (July)
VT (Felipe)
VT (John2k4)
Census (Sword)
Roleblocker (Asdioh)
Gunsmith (Kantrip)
Combat Medic (Sokr)

Red Ruy
Swiss (Roleblocker/Redirector/Jailer)
Adum (Tracker)



This is the easiest explanation in my eyes. I already guessed earlier that if Adum or Swiss was scum, then so was the other, and the gunsmith results only back that up.

There are other options though. It could be adum/July as Kantrip suggested, or Felipe could be scum, etc.
But this seems most likely to me.

At the very least, a Swiss or Adum lynch would garner a toooon of information, regardless of flip.

Swiss targeted sokr n1, I see no reason for a scum role to target him unless he died, it did not make sense.

Oh come on.

Basically, I think RR knew there was a gunsmith, which suggests a scum role that counters it somehow.

What makes you think that?

He's not the cop, it would bring significant balance issues into play if there was a cop. The possibility exists of weaker investigative roles like a reporter, a neighborizer, or a gunsmith, but not a cop.

You were the only one to mention the word "gunsmith" in the thread before toDay. Did RR know because you relayed the information to him? ಠ_ಠ

 

[Asdioh]

But yeah, there's no we have a census taker (which is EXTREMELY powerful) a tracker AND a gunsmith. Plus two roleblockers and a vigdoctor. I don't care what the scumteam would have to counter that, there's no way.

 

[Kantrip]

Vote: adumbrodeus

 

[Swiss]

Don't lynch Adum without my express permission.

I'm serious.

 

[Swiss]

And for the love of God - if myself and Adum were scum, we would have already endgamed you all. No way would we ever, possibly get caught working together.

 

[Kantrip]

Kantrip that logic is horrific and you should feel bad. Tracker tracks to whoever you visited and there's no way swiss wouldn't have mentioned if he got redirected.

Adum this response is horrific and you should feel bad. No, but really. I wouldn't think one would be informed if they were redirected unless they get a result back normally. You know, like what Swiss said he clarified with Gova about roleblockers? All Swiss knows is he targeted Sokr, and you telling him this could easily be a lie, with you KNOWING he was redirected to Swords.

 

[Kantrip]

adum/July is more likely than adum/Swiss.

Adum is my lynch choice because he's in both of these. We will wait for Swiss's express permission, lest he flips a table at our stupidity or something.

 

[Swiss]

I flip a lot.

Let me get home, read, think, question Adum.

 

[Swiss]

Spending more of my day on mafia than working....

 

[Asdioh]

And for the love of God - if myself and Adum were scum, we would have already endgamed you all. No way would we ever, possibly get caught working together.

I don't know about that, but I can see how you two being together would be unlikely. From the beginning, you've painted targets on yourselves so that it would be impossible to get to lategame without suspecting you.



Hey Adum, did you ever state why you tracked July N2? That's a crucial piece of information and I'm surprised you didn't include it. Unless I just missed it.

 

[Swiss]

I don't know about that, but I can see how you two being together would be unlikely. From the beginning, you've painted targets on yourselves so that it would be impossible to get to lategame without suspecting you.

Unless that's what we want you to think.

 

[Asdioh]

 

[Asdioh]

Getting post #1337 was actually my wincon.

****ing destroyed, nice try guys.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum this response is horrific and you should feel bad. No, but really. I wouldn't think one would be informed if they were redirected unless they get a result back normally. You know, like what Swiss said he clarified with Gova about roleblockers? All Swiss knows is he targeted Sokr, and you telling him this could easily be a lie, with you KNOWING he was redirected to Swords.

You're missing a crucial piece of information, how would I know he targeted sokr initially?

Without that information how would I know that he was actually redirected to swords in the first place since bus drivers target two roles and switch them.

How?

The thought never even crossed my mind.

This post and this post. At first I thought he was an investigative role of some stripe and trying to figure out whether he should be counter-claiming.

But with his flip, this simply doesn't make sense to me unless he already knew something.

Hey Adum, did you ever state why you tracked July N2? That's a crucial piece of information and I'm surprised you didn't include it. Unless I just missed it.

I thought it was obvious, shot in the dark looking for scum three.

I figured that it was unlikely they'd have the killer be somebody who was heavily suspected and I hoped I'd get lucky.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But yeah, there's no we have a census taker (which is EXTREMELY powerful) a tracker AND a gunsmith. Plus two roleblockers and a vigdoctor. I don't care what the scumteam would have to counter that, there's no way.

It's signifigantly countered by partial flips. Given that, the double RB is the only role that really stands out.

Oh come on.

No, seriously. Sokr had no connections and was generally seen as town, except by swiss. Scum-wiss killing him would make sense, but he was an unlikely target for pretty much everything that a scum power would have because of his generally townie status.

You were the only one to mention the word "gunsmith" in the thread before toDay. Did RR know because you relayed the information to him? ಠ_ಠ

...

Ok, if I were a scum tracker how exactly would I know that there was a gunsmith. This attack is just stupid.

Asdioh, you're better then this.

 

[Asdioh]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Gunsmith

"The Gunsmith is an information role that can target a player at Night to learn if they have a gun in flavor. Members of the Mafia (that are not Doctors), Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc. all have guns in traditional flavor. Notably, Serial Killers and Doctors do not have guns."

Kantrip, I want to see if you can read my mind. When I quoted that section of the gunsmith role, what was I thinking, and who was I thinking it about?

This post and this post. At first I thought he was an investigative role of some stripe and trying to figure out whether he should be counter-claiming.

But with his flip, this simply doesn't make sense to me unless he already knew something.

Ok, this makes sense to me.

I thought it was obvious, shot in the dark looking for scum three.

Who is scum number two?

No, seriously. Sokr had no connections and was generally seen as town, except by swiss. Scum-wiss killing him would make sense, but he was an unlikely target for pretty much everything that a scum power would have because of his generally townie status.

...my point is that it's pretty normal for scum to have someone kill, and have someone else use a role (tracker, roleblocker, etc) to find some PRs. Even if you did track Swiss visiting someone that didn't die, that doesn't make him town.

...

Ok, if I were a scum tracker how exactly would I know that there was a gunsmith. This attack is just stupid.

Asdioh, you're better then this.

Well, the scumteam obviously know each others' roles. Maybe one person is a tracker, but there might be someone that directly or indirectly counters gunsmiths. Either way, you could have found Kantrip's crumbs and pointed them out.

Then again, if you had known that, you probably would have killed Kantrip as scum.



I don't know. I have to go to work again

 

[adumbrodeus]

Who is scum number two?

I thought john.

...my point is that it's pretty normal for scum to have someone kill, and have someone else use a role (tracker, roleblocker, etc) to find some PRs. Even if you did track Swiss visiting someone that didn't die, that doesn't make him town.

This is the definite weak link in your post, I explained this already. It wasn't that I saw him visiting somebody that didn't die. It's WHO I saw him visiting, a sokr visit doesn't make sense from scum unless he died.

Well, the scumteam obviously know each others' roles. Maybe one person is a tracker, but there might be someone that directly or indirectly counters gunsmiths. Either way, you could have found Kantrip's crumbs and pointed them out.

Then again, if you had known that, you probably would have killed Kantrip as scum.

And yea, this is really fracking townie.


Your 1325 is terrible asdioh, very shotgun approach to scumhunting, but your 1340 reads very townie. I need to think and continue my reread.

 

[Kantrip]

Asdioh, I've read that article already (it was my first instinct when I got my role PM). I thought adum was a cop from his communicating with Swiss (which would have a gun), and I'm not sure if a tracker would.

All mafia members come up with a gun though, regardless of role (except doctor/jailer. I know you think scum jailer is possible, so I would be led to assume that is your theoretical counter to the gunsmith you are looking for.

I was expecting there to be a rolecop somewhere in this set up due to the partial flips, and scum rolecop is possible. Scum knowing roles before this claim is something we should consider.

Adum, you and Swiss communicated about targeting Sokr. It would be easy for this conclusion to be made by you. As a bus driver you could have picked Sokr and Swords to be switched. Swords was a scummy player at that point in the game and Sokr was an obv town newbie. Switching actions on the two would be a logical choice. That way, when Swords claimed to be roleblocked, you would then know the roleblocker targeted Sokr.

 

[Kantrip]

Adum, Asdioh is town. He would not direct the vig to kill RR as his scummate, and his play has been fine.
John didn't take the kill in this case, as he was roleblocked. If you aren't lying, though I expect you are, it's not July either.

 

[adumbrodeus]

All mafia members come up with a gun though, regardless of role (except doctor/jailer. I know you think scum jailer is possible, so I would be led to assume that is your theoretical counter to the gunsmith you are looking for.

I was expecting there to be a rolecop somewhere in this set up due to the partial flips, and scum rolecop is possible. Scum knowing roles before this claim is something we should consider.

Role cop is possible, but what are the odds that he role copped me? Cop was already directed to look into me or swiss, if they had a tailor equivalent that's a 50% chance of getting it right, which makes more sense?

Adum, you and Swiss communicated about targeting Sokr. It would be easy for this conclusion to be made by you. As a bus driver you could have picked Sokr and Swords to be switched. Swords was a scummy player at that point in the game and Sokr was an obv town newbie. Switching actions on the two would be a logical choice. That way, when Swords claimed to be roleblocked, you would then know the roleblocker targeted Sokr.

The timeframe for this makes no sense whatsoever.

1. I didn't crumb to swiss until the start of d2 when I made the tracker crumb.

2. My crumb was well before swords claimed.

3. I had no way of knowing that swiss was a roleblocker. Even if you're assuming a role cop (and swiss was a legitimate target) it would require two actions n1 because scum also had to somehow know about the gunsmith if there wasn't a role that explicitly counters it.


...

Kantrip, you're still town but you need to read the game a LOT more carefully.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum, Asdioh is town. He would not direct the vig to kill RR as his scummate, and his play has been fine.

Why? Seriously.

 

[Swiss]

The morse code crap was Adum saying "Swiss, I saw you visit Sokr last night." He's either the town/mafia tracker and really saw townswiss visit Sokr (how else would he know) or he and swiss are scummates and decided to do elaborate faking.

Well, I may have misread a 'crumb' which I crumbed back - which he picked up on.

Just chuckin' a spanner out there.

 

[Swiss]

There are too many scenarios emerging. This is why I dislike night action games.

longest night ever >:E

I will also have to reread. I would have done it over the night phase but

Spoiler

it would have sucked if i was killed

You're a RB, yet would rather no action and wait for the day to start rather than read and block accordingly?

town
leaning town
null or Swiss
leaning scum
mega leaning scum

Current thoughts. Hopefully none of you are colorblind. Ideally, I'll reread and have some justification for these reads, namely the scummy ones.

It's too bad Ryker's gone, but at least it's one less replacement slot I have to worry about. I thought that once I saw the Day's flip, I would look for crumbs from that player to see if they hid their PR somewhere in their posts, since this game has partial flips. Idk if a replacement would do that though.

I might as well just ask adum to hold my hand in this game.

@July: why'd you ask Kantrip specifically?


Vote: Sworddancer

Swords didn't even post D2 and you call him "mega scum" - list him as your strongest scum read and vote him. You hadn't even re-read.

Why were you so convinced Swords was a town investigative role, if you immediately vote him D2?

I
I am the (a?) town roleblocker.
I chose No Action on Night 1, as there were no claims in the open and I feared blocking an investigative role.

This does not line up.

 

[Swiss]

^ Middle quote has reads in another quote, click the link to see his reads.

 

[Kantrip]

Thanks adum, you're right. I should just be using Occam's Razor at this point. Occam's Razor says it's an adum/Swiss scumteam, and Swiss's self meta on that scumteam isn't going to change that.

I have read, thank you, and I continue to do so.

I wouldn't put it past you or Swiss or even some other players to direct vigs to kill their scummates, but I'm confident Asdioh didn't. Asdioh is town, his action claim clears John from being the killer. You, adum are claiming July didn't do it. The only solutions:

Felipe sent in the NK.
Swiss sent in the NK.
You are scum.

Pick your poison, my friend. If we're lucky you may even get to pick two.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thanks adum, you're right. I should just be using Occam's Razor at this point. Occam's Razor says it's an adum/Swiss scumteam, and Swiss's self meta on that scumteam isn't going to change that.

I have read, thank you, and I continue to do so.

It's not wiform to say that buddying your scummate publically would be utterly and completely stupid. Any way that it's done that gives you an advantage leads an incredibly obvious trail.

I wouldn't put it past you or Swiss or even some other players to direct vigs to kill their scummates, but I'm confident Asdioh didn't. Asdioh is town, his action claim clears John from being the killer. You, adum are claiming July didn't do it. The only solutions:

Then you'll be forever stuck in mid level play, even the most rudimentary scum player knows to bus a lost cause. Asdioh isn't amazing, but he is solid, and your blinders about him only serve to prevent you from being able to figure out the game as it is.

If you think that's true, read their interactions, explain why it's impossible.

 

[Asdioh]

Your 1325 is terrible asdioh, very shotgun approach to scumhunting,

surely at least one of them has to be scum, right? :D

 

[Asdioh]

Asdioh, I've read that article already (it was my first instinct when I got my role PM). I thought adum was a cop from his communicating with Swiss (which would have a gun), and I'm not sure if a tracker would.

All mafia members come up with a gun though, regardless of role (except doctor/jailer. I know you think scum jailer is possible, so I would be led to assume that is your theoretical counter to the gunsmith you are looking for.

I was expecting there to be a rolecop somewhere in this set up due to the partial flips, and scum rolecop is possible. Scum knowing roles before this claim is something we should consider.

Adum, you and Swiss communicated about targeting Sokr. It would be easy for this conclusion to be made by you. As a bus driver you could have picked Sokr and Swords to be switched. Swords was a scummy player at that point in the game and Sokr was an obv town newbie. Switching actions on the two would be a logical choice. That way, when Swords claimed to be roleblocked, you would then know the roleblocker targeted Sokr.

I think rolecop on scum would be horribly OP with partial flips.
-Find role
-kill them
-claim role, guaranteed no CC, gg you win

I guess you didn't read my mind. What I was getting at is that, after looking at the role and reading that paragraph, it makes it really strongly look like Sokr would actually be the serial killer. I'm not saying that's the case, but looking at it setupwise that would be my first impression.
Then again, didn't you point out something Sokr said early on that sounded strangely indy-huntingish?

 

[Asdioh]

stuff

...

Kantrip, you're still town but you need to read the game a LOT more carefully.

I agree with this post. Kantrip is making some valid points against Adum, and I think Adum being scum is very possible, but some of his role theories are just making no sense to me.

 

[Asdioh]

You're a RB, yet would rather no action and wait for the day to start rather than read and block accordingly?

If I had a guarantee I wouldn't be messing with a cop, then I absolutely would have. That's why I wanted the cop to claim on D2, if you remember that. If you must know, I strongly considered RBing Sword, but ultimately decided not to. And if I had, this:

@ Kantrip - If Swords is town and was roleblocked by anti town, do you think it possible scum would not simply RB him again? I'd lay down my mafia career if town had roleblocked him last night.

Would have been embarrassing.

Side note, that quote is one reason I had considered the possibility of there being more than one town roleblocker, even before you had claimed.

Why were you so convinced Swords was a town investigative role, if you immediately vote him D2?

\(o_o)/

This does not line up.

Are you actually considering the possibility that I'm scum? I had so much town credit that I got the privelege of claiming last. Why would I do something as controversial as claiming town roleblocker, which in itself is a pretty uncommon role, especially after someone else had already claimed it?
Hell, how is it even suspicious at all that I claimed No Action for N1? I might have done the same as, say, a vig, if I had no *really* strong scumspect.

 

[Asdioh]

John
Sokr
Felipe
July


We need wayyy more input from you four. Felipe, it doesn't look like you're getting replaced anytime soon. What are your thoughts on these claims?

 

[Asdioh]

Also, I'm pretty sure Kantrip realizes I'm town for reasons beside "he mentioned vigging RR"
Honestly, the large majority of games I've played haven't had vigs. I just said that on the off chance a hypothetical vig would listen. I think my other interactions with RR are far more important.



http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13710118&postcount=857 <--notes, where I first mention RR being not-townie
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13715274&postcount=873 <--where I first take a stance on RR being scum.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13718826&postcount=928 <--the votecount. notice i'm the only one voting for RR. adum had voted him for a bit but then the cop gambit made him vote for kantrip.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13715388&postcount=875
You can consider it a bus (which it isn't) but it was nowhere near a lost cause if I was the one bringing attention to him.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13718178#post13718178

Who knows, we might have lynched RR on D2 if Kantrip hadn't distracted everyone with that cop claim :mistyface:

 

[Kantrip]

You're right, Asdioh. Mafia rolecop is dumb.

Mafia Jailer
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Redirector

Town ???
Town Gunsmith
Town Roleblocker
Town Census Taker
Town Vig/Doc
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla

??? ???

My current thoughts from set-up speculation. The person I think belongs with each role should be fairly obvious. The ??? ??? is a possible Indy or another Vanilla Townie if not.

Now I'll move on from set-up stuff and go back with all the information I have to analyze some things from a play perspective.

 

[Sokr]

Ok, adum is my strongest scum read atm followed by swiss, july and john (in that order). A swiss/adum scum team is the most likely that I can see. And swiss, I don't care if you wouldn't slip up like that, I've never seen you play before, I don't know that, and I'm certainly not taking your word for it.

Vote: Adumb

 

[Asdioh]

Currently rereading some stuff, paying special attention to RR interactions.

Kantrip and Sokr, what do you think of RR's series of posts starting here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13654634#post13654634

 

[Asdioh]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13657869&postcount=479

I'm

Spoiler

having a hard time seeing Adum as scum. At least, his early play looks extremely townie.