Breaking the Ice - Ice Climbers DLC Discussion Thread - Under New Ownership!

[Dynamo68]

I secondary them, and I agree that disabling Nana when Popo is executing certain moves would indeed balance them.

^^This.

 

[Ryan.]

I seriously had a dream that these two were revealed. I was expecting it a lot sooner haha, maybe in July? I never really played as them much but since my first game was Melee I can't imagine Smash without them.

 

[Aninymouse]

I always thought a unique way to handle ICs in Smash 4 would be to treat them as having one body. Two hurtboxes that mostly overlap, but belong to one being. So if Nana gets smashed and sent flying, Popo goes with her, and vice-versa. Likewise, their coordinated attacks are scripted and do not vary. Perhaps there would be a way to manually alter their timing: one of their attacks would have a "switch" mechanic on it that changed their attack pattern a bit.

If the Ice Climbers were inseparable, one being connected with invisible ties, it would eliminate chain grabbing no matter what and would alleviate any possible stress on the 3DS processor, and reduce lag online.

 

[Dynamo68]

I always thought a unique way to handle ICs in Smash 4 would be to treat them as having one body. Two hurtboxes that mostly overlap, but belong to one being. So if Nana gets smashed and sent flying, Popo goes with her, and vice-versa. Likewise, their coordinated attacks are scripted and do not vary. Perhaps there would be a way to manually alter their timing: one of their attacks would have a "switch" mechanic on it that changed their attack pattern a bit.

If the Ice Climbers were inseparable, one being connected with invisible ties, it would eliminate chain grabbing no matter what and would alleviate any possible stress on the 3DS processor, and reduce lag online.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[HazySmoke]

How I would design Ice Climbers if I worked for Nintendo

Hey guys. This is my first post on Smashboards

So I've been thinking about how Ice Climbers can be made in Smash 4. Some people think that they're "broken" in Brawl because of their infinite grab combo. I've been brainstorming some ideas on how to make them really fun to play and not be "broken", and I think I have a preliminary sketch of how their mechanics can work. I'm not sure if any Nintendo developers will ever frequent this forum. so ideas I throw here probably won't make a difference... But still, considering how I spent time thinking about this, I thought it would be a shame to not post this anywhere.

The key philosophies I'm sticking to are these:

(1) Remove the infinite combs that require ridiculously precise timing (e.g. chain grab) and replace them with finite or escapable infinite combos with less strict timing requirements.

(2) Make desynching easier and more useful, thus enabling amazing combos. I believe this is the whole point of having a double character like Ice Climbers.

(But there's much more to my ideas than these, so do keep reading.)

Normal Mode and Desynched Mode

The idea I have revolve around having two "modes" of controlling the Ice Climbers: Normal and Desynched. The Down-B special move switches between the two modes. (Yes, I know Down-B is also Blizzard, just bear with me for a second.) Here's how the two modes will work:

Normal Mode
Works like Brawl,

Human controls the leader (initially Popo)
AI controls the follower (initially Nana)

If Nana is close, she copies Popo with a 6 frame lag.
If Nana is far, she tries to come back.

The only change I would make is to remove the 6 frame lag for shields and dodges. It always annoyed me that they can't sidestep or powershield together.

Desynched mode
Nana does not copy Popo's ATTACKS or DODGES or TAUNTS (but does copy movement)
Human / AI control switches with every attack (or dodges or taunts)
- In other words, initially Popo is the human player and Nana is AI. After Popo does an attack (which Nana does not copy), Nana will now be the leader and Popo will be the follower. Then Nana can do something, and Popo will be the leader again.

In this mode, Popo and Nana are desyched by default. I envision this greater independence to enable some really cool combos and tricks. Here's one example.

Example: How to manually save Nana when she's really far from Popo
In Normal Mode, with Popo being the leader. Enter desynched mode. Now perform any attack with Popo. With that attack, Popo is now the follower who will run toward Nana, and Nana will be controlled by human.

How to switch between Normal and Desynched modes

Normal Mode -> Desynched Mode

My proposal is to use a "quick" down special. I'm using the fact that their regular Down-B, Blizzard, doesn't come out until (approximately) the 16th frame. This means we can do something like this:

Down-B - hold the B button for 16 frames - Blizzard (comes out immediately)
Down-B - let go of the B button before 16 frames - Mode Switch

We can also reduce the 16-frame threshold if that's too long. For example, we can have

Down-B - and hold the B button for 6 frames - Blizzard (comes out after 10 frames)
Down-B - and let go of the B button before 6 frames - Mode Switch

Yet another way is to require the player to "double-click" B to do a Mode Switch, and "single-click" to do a Blizzard. I guess this prevents beginners from "accidentally" desynching their Ice Climbers without knowing how to get back. I personally don't like "hiding" an advanced feature from beginners, though... so personally I like the second approach better (the one with the 6-frame threshold, or whatever time threshold is comfortable for the players based on play testing)

Desynched Mode -> Normal Mode

The same quick Down-B move can switch back to Normal Mode. Here's one really cool trick you can do:

Example: How to make Nana the leader.
In Desynched Mode, when it's Nana's turn to attack. Switch back to Normal Mode. Now Nana is the leader!

Fixing the Infinite Grab Combo
To be honest, I haven't thought through this one. Even being an Ice Climber main, I don't like the chain grab because the timing is so strict I still can't pull it off consistently. One possible approach is to make it so that the throw trajectory doesn't overlap with the grab hitbox. Or make the grab hitbox stale so it get smaller and smaller. Or make the opponent immune from Ice Climber grabs during true hitstun.

Whatever the method is, I am in favour of having finite combos that look amazing, instead of infinite combos that are repetitive and boring. I mean, we can still do cool things when Ice Climbers grab someone. Imagine if Popo grabs someone in desynched mode. Then Nana will be able to MOVE during Popo's grab. (I haven't thought of how Nana will take advantage of this, however...)

During KO
If the leader is KOed, the remaining Ice Climber will the promoted the leader.

In other words: Nana does not disappear after Popo is gone. Now that we can switch leaders with desync mode, there's no reason not to make their roles more democratic. Who else has always wanted to play as solo Nana?

Damage Meter
Now that it's possible to switch leaders in desync mode, it no longer makes sense to just show Popo's damage.

Two possible approaches:
The damage meter can display the least damaged of the two, or the average.

I'm leaning towards the average because their percentage will always increase when either Ice Climber gets hit---this probably will make more sense to beginners.

Conclusion

So yeah, that's my idea. I wonder if people like the idea at all. One disadvantage I can think of is that dedicated Ice Climber mains are about the only ones who can make effective use of desynched mode. So perhaps they are not beginner-friendly---and I think beginners is a significant target audience for Sakurai. (Or maybe I'm wrong---anyone can save Nana manually using the trick I described, right?) Also, even if enough people will like it, I don't know (1) how to get in touch with Nintendo's developer team, (2) if they'll truly listen (I hope they do!) and (3) whether there's enough time between now and October to implement a new feature---it's not just the mechanics they'll implement. They also need an AI for the CPU Ice Climbers, and also lots of retesting and rebalancing. I also don't know if the desynch mode will introduce new broken tactics. But hey, I'm pretty excited about this idea, and the main point of this post is to have more eyeballs looking at it.

Edit (April 17, 2015)
I forget to mention this originally, but in addition to everything above,

The Ice Climbers need a better Final Smash. The giant iceberg in Brawl has been a mere annoyance that does hardly any damage.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

How would you guys feel if Nana and Popo got seperated by had different movesets? Or similar but Luigified movesets?

 

[Dynamo68]

I hope we get some more character announcements soon. I hope the Ice Climbers will be among those character announcements. I hope they get a better Final Smash. What do ya guys think it should be?

 

[Deleted member]

I hope we get some more character announcements soon. I hope the Ice Climbers will be among those character announcements. I hope they get a better Final Smash. What do ya guys think it should be?

They do either the Freeze Glitch, or Wobble the opponent to kill percent.

 

[Dynamo68]

They do either the Freeze Glitch, or Wobble the opponent to kill percent.

Well, I was actually thinking more along the lines of a huge snowstorm. Not much else I can think of other than that.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

How would you guys feel if Nana and Popo got seperated by had different movesets? Or similar but Luigified movesets?

Don't they already sorta do? Their moves have different properties.. some, at least. Example: Only the secondary Climber can meteor with the Fair. There should be others as well...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm surprised that they have yet to be confirmed!

 

[koffdropz]

I feel like a bunch of veterans are gonna be revealed at once in August

 

[Dynamo68]

I'm surprised that they have yet to be confirmed!

Same with Captain Falcon, Ness and Jigglypuff, since those 3 have been in the series since the beginning.

I feel like a bunch of veterans are gonna be revealed at once in August

I think that's possible. Ice Climbers have got to be revealed soon.

 

[skylanders fan]

found this but i don't think its real http://ssb4dojo.com/post/90999561876/sunday-rumor-mill-ice-climbers-playable-leak

 

[Deleted member]

Same with Captain Falcon, Ness and Jigglypuff, since those 3 have been in the series since the beginning.

Captain Falcon and Ness were hidden in the original and Brawl. I bet they will be hidden this time too. Jigglypuff has always been hidden. I'd honestly be surprised if any of them were revealed before release, as this isn't the Year of Falcon, the Year of Ness, or the Year of Puff.

As for the Ice Climbers; have a straw grasp:

Olimar was revealed 12th last year.
Friday is the 11th.
Olimar's gimmick is Pikmin, which aid in his attacks.
Without Pikmin, Olimar is worthless.
The number of Pikmin Olimar can have in Smash 4 was decreased, probably due to how good he was in Brawl.
Olimar's gimmick is similar to another character that was in Brawl and Melee.
Said character is almost useless without the gimmick.
This gimmick will probably be nerfed due to how good it made this character's grab game.

ICE CLIMBERS REVEAL CONFIRMED FRIDAY

 

[Dynamo68]

Captain Falcon and Ness were hidden in the original and Brawl. I bet they will be hidden this time too. Jigglypuff has always been hidden. I'd honestly be surprised if any of them were revealed before release, as this isn't the Year of Falcon, the Year of Ness, or the Year of Puff.

As for the Ice Climbers; have a straw grasp:

Olimar was revealed 12th last year.
Friday is the 11th.
Olimar's gimmick is Pikmin, which aid in his attacks.
Without Pikmin, Olimar is worthless.
The number of Pikmin Olimar can have in Smash 4 was decreased, probably due to how good he was in Brawl.
Olimar's gimmick is similar to another character that was in Brawl and Melee.
Said character is almost useless without the gimmick.
This gimmick will probably be nerfed due to how good it made this character's grab game.

ICE CLIMBERS REVEAL CONFIRMED FRIDAY

How can you be sure that the IC's will be revealed on Friday?

 

[Bedoop]

How can you be sure that the IC's will be revealed on Friday?

Because Gabe Newell told them.

 

[Dynamo68]

Because Gabe Newell told them.

What?

 

[Xavier :D]

I have a good feeling that these two will be revealed this Friday....

 

[Dynamo68]

I have a good feeling that these two will be revealed this Friday....

Why are you guys getting the thought that they'll be revealed on Friday? I'm just curious.

 

[Deleted member]

How can you be sure that the IC's will be revealed on Friday?

The straw grasp; the straw grasp.

Olimar was revealed last year at this time. Olimar has Pikmin, which are quite comparable to Nana in terms of how the character is less effective without their partner.

I'm not serious, it's a straw grasp.

 

[Dynamo68]

The straw grasp; the straw grasp.

Olimar was revealed last year at this time. Olimar has Pikmin, which are quite comparable to Nana in terms of how the character is less effective without their partner.

I'm not serious, it's a straw grasp.

Straw grasp? I don't understand. I've never heard of that term. Could you explain to me what it means?

 

[Phaazoid]

I mean, the way I see it, if we get a vet this friday, Wario, meta knight, or the ice climbers have the highest chance of being revealed, followed by unlockable vets, like falco.

Of course, like @BluePsychic said, we're straw grasping, this is entirely based off of the fact that Olimar was revealed a month after last E3, and we're desperate for updates, haha.

 

[Dynamo68]

I mean, the way I see it, if we get a vet this friday, Wario, meta knight, or the ice climbers have the highest chance of being revealed, followed by unlockable vets, like falco.

Of course, like @BluePsychic said, we're straw grasping, this is entirely based off of the fact that Olimar was revealed a month after last E3, and we're desperate for updates, haha.

Thanks. I've already got my fingers crossed.

 

[Opossum]

As much as anniversaries don't count, the Ice Climber VC 3DS rerelease came out in Japan in July. Nintendo is sponsoring EVO. Ice Climbers are popular competitive characters that are the last of the Melee starters to be revealed. More straw grasping, but combined with the Olimar thing...

 

[Phaazoid]

Thanks. I've already got my fingers crossed.

I missed your last post, here you go

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasp+at+straws

 

[Dynamo68]

As much as anniversaries don't count, the Ice Climber VC 3DS rerelease came out in Japan in July. Nintendo is sponsoring EVO. Ice Climbers are popular competitive characters that are the last of the Melee starters to be revealed. More straw grasping, but combined with the Olimar thing...

I'm beginning to feel butterflies in my tummy.

 

[Deleted member]

Ice Climbers are popular competitive characters that are the last of the Melee starters to be revealed.

Not true though; Ness and Captain Falcon were starters in Melee, and Falcon is also quite popular competitively. (My money is that Ness and Falcon are probably hidden though.)

 

[JohannFKNFaust]

All I have to say is... I hope they don't return. I know they've been here since Melee but they're so terrible! They completely dependent on each other when it comes to their recovery and a few other attacks. Rosalina doesn't have that dependency, Luma is a great addition, but he's just a gimmick and she works perfectly fine without him.

 

[Deleted member]

All I have to say is... I hope they don't return. I know they've been here since Melee but they're so terrible! They completely dependent on each other when it comes to their recovery and a few other attacks. Rosalina doesn't have that dependency, Luma is a great addition, but he's just a gimmick and she works perfectly fine without him.

Technically, Popo can function without Nana

they're just better when teamed.

 

[JohannFKNFaust]

Technically, Popo can function without Nana

they're just better when teamed.

Mostly, yes, but not with recovery and in my family... you brutally go after the second iceclimber and kill the **** out of them before going after the main one xD

 

[Deleted member]

Mostly, yes, but not with recovery and in my family

There's your problem. Your judgement here is incredibly biased. No one in my family likes using Mario. Should he be cut?

 

[JohannFKNFaust]

There's your problem. Your judgement here is incredibly biased. No one in my family likes using Mario. Should he be cut?

Mario is Nintendo, he's the face of Nintendo, their recovery still requires the other completely and utterly to even do anything, and they're not that strong so that draw back, while it made sense, it was absolutely horrid.

 

[Opossum]

Not true though; Ness and Captain Falcon were starters in Melee, and Falcon is also quite popular competitively. (My money is that Ness and Falcon are probably hidden though.)

Didn't think I'd have to specify, but starting newcomers is what I meant.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario is Nintendo, he's the face of Nintendo, their recovery still requires the other completely and utterly to even do anything, and they're not that strong so that draw back, while it made sense, it was absolutely horrid.

"They're not that strong"

um...

A good Ice Climbers player can take a stock by grabbing. And if that is removed, they can always get a power buff. It's not that hard.

I used Mario to call out your obvious bias against the character. You don't use them, so of course you'd want them removed. I don't use Mario, so should he be removed? Obviously not.

Didn't think I'd have to specify, but starting newcomers is what I meant.

Oh OK, then yeah, Icies are the last of 'em.

 

[JohannFKNFaust]

"They're not that strong"

um...

A good Ice Climbers player can take a stock by grabbing. And if that is removed, they can always get a power buff. It's not that hard.

I used Mario to call out your obvious bias against the character. You don't use them, so of course you'd want them removed. I don't use Mario, so should he be removed? Obviously not.

Meh, that video doesn't prove much to me, statistics do.

 

[Deleted member]

Meh, that video doesn't prove much to me, statistics do.

Statistics, hm?

Then look up tournament results for Brawl and Melee. Do it.

There is no reason to remove this character. Their up special can be tweaked or even changed to work better with just Popo. A solo Popo doesn't even use up special to recover, he uses Squall Hammer. This character is not bad at all, in fact, the way they are right now makes them one of the better characters in both games. They are not hard to balance. If Luma is similar to Nana, then I guess they shouldn't have been in Brawl, because Pikmin are also similar. You are biased. I don't play some characters, but I don't push for their removal. Kindly shut up. We get it; you don't like Ice Climbers, but your reasons for removing them are entirely biased and not unfixable.

 

[Opossum]

You're using an incredibly small sample size for your so-called statistics. Actual long-run statistics are the thing that shows why the Ice Climbers are extremely good in both Melee and Brawl. They're extremely powerful in the right hands, what with an infinite chain grab, high power specials, and good juggling game. Don't use just your personal experience to damn a character.

 

[Dynamo68]

Statistics, hm?

Then look up tournament results for Brawl and Melee. Do it.

There is no reason to remove this character. Their up special can be tweaked or even changed to work better with just Popo. A solo Popo doesn't even use up special to recover, he uses Squall Hammer. This character is not bad at all, in fact, the way they are right now makes them one of the better characters in both games. They are not hard to balance. If Luma is similar to Nana, then I guess they shouldn't have been in Brawl, because Pikmin are also similar. You are biased. I don't play some characters, but I don't push for their removal. Kindly shut up. We get it; you don't like Ice Climbers, but your reasons for removing them are entirely biased and not unfixable.

Thank you for kindly shutting up that pathetic excuse for a member of Smashboards.

 

[JohannFKNFaust]

Statistics, hm?

Then look up tournament results for Brawl and Melee. Do it.

There is no reason to remove this character. Their up special can be tweaked or even changed to work better with just Popo. A solo Popo doesn't even use up special to recover, he uses Squall Hammer. This character is not bad at all, in fact, the way they are right now makes them one of the better characters in both games. They are not hard to balance. If Luma is similar to Nana, then I guess they shouldn't have been in Brawl, because Pikmin are also similar. You are biased. I don't play some characters, but I don't push for their removal. Kindly shut up. We get it; you don't like Ice Climbers, but your reasons for removing them are entirely biased and not unfixable.

I havem and they're not lookin good for them. Anyways, they probably will be back, but I'm sure very many can agree with me that they won't be missed if they don't return.