Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Shell]

Items aren't just banned because they're "items."

I don't remember all the reasons off the top of my head, but the main reasons they aren't included in tourney play is due to the random nature of their spawning, and the fact that many are quite over-powered.

The sand bag doesn't really fit either of these qualities. It doesn't spawn randomly, it starts in the middle and either person can move it from there strategically. It's more of a moving part of the stage than a typical item. And it certainly doesn't have any OP ways to use it against an opponent.

Do you have any arguments other than the fact that it is, by definition, an item?

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'm just confused as to what you found to be wrong with the other waiting room? a flat stage with good ledges that was big enough for 4 people to play unhindered... a fantastic neutral that lacked the gimping abilities of FD. now its a CP at best with a stupid *** wall that kills projectile characters like samus by forcing them to approach. and even if you move it, the camera still follows it so it adds even more of a hindrance to gameplay. if you guys wanted a competitive game then you've ****ed it up royally.

 

[Roxas215]

haevn't tested the new set yet(has to wait til someone can send me the snapshot to my wii as my sd slot is broke) but from what im hearing that put mansion back to normal? Why in the world would u do that??

Also sandbag is now part of the stage? lmao! That is too funny i will never play that stage again. o well.

edit

i'm just confused as to what you found to be wrong with the other waiting room? a flat stage with good ledges that was big enough for 4 people to play unhindered... a fantastic neutral that lacked the gimping abilities of FD. now its a CP at best with a stupid *** wall that kills projectile characters like samus by forcing them to approach. and even if you move it, the camera still follows it so it adds even more of a hindrance to gameplay. if you guys wanted a competitive game then you've ****ed it up royally.

Truer words have never been spoken!

 

[jalued]

You can now edit both textures and in-game music


what exactly does that mean? is it possible to have both the new LM and deadlands?

 

[Roxas215]

You can now edit both textures and in-game music

You can now have custom music with no need to iso hack just as u can textures.

 

[tsunami70875]

does the latest nightly have File Patch v. 3.2a or 3.1?

 

[Roager]

i'm just confused as to what you found to be wrong with the other waiting room? a flat stage with good ledges that was big enough for 4 people to play unhindered... a fantastic neutral that lacked the gimping abilities of FD. now its a CP at best with a stupid *** wall that kills projectile characters like samus by forcing them to approach. and even if you move it, the camera still follows it so it adds even more of a hindrance to gameplay. if you guys wanted a competitive game then you've ****ed it up royally.

Firstly, Samus wouldn't get destroyed by this, because it goes both ways. She can't shoot or be shot. Except that she can shoot. Homing missile could cover her to run in, but as soon as she passes the bag, she smash missiles, then rushes in for a zair or something.

Also, the camera isn't a TERRIBLE problem. It's annoying, yes, but it's hardly a hindrance. Chances are you play equally well on a small TV or a big one, so the camera shouldn't screw you over that bad.

It hardly ****s up everything. And if it's REALLY that bad, they'll take it out. If they don't, you still don't have to play on it.

EDIT: for Samus, I meant jump and homing missile, so it goes over. Unless they home in on the bag. Still, she could run past it and then shoot.

 

[Shell]

The fact that the camera follows it is known, and we hope to be able to remedy that in the future. Whether you want to classify it as neutral or CP, the gameplay is good and unique, and so far generally well received.

 

[FrozenHobo]

you've taken a neutral and turned it into one of the gimmicky stages that you complain about in vBrawl.

 

[jokey665]

I don't complain about gimmicky stages, the more off-the-wall the higher the chance I'll like it. I like unique concepts.

 

[FrozenHobo]

but that was the point of B+, to take away the gimmicky BS and make a game built solely for competitive play. you're doing the exact opposite by putting a gimmicky stage BACK into B+. its hypocritical.

 

[Plum]

As I see it, the Sandbag is a refreshing reason for me to actually play the stage.

Prior, it was just a longer FD with different blast zones. If I want to play an FD like stage, I will just play FD.
And who ever said that the WiFi waiting room had to be neutral? If anything I would put it under counterpick even with the Sandbag as a dollar like it was last build. The stage itself was so large that I would argue it effected gameplay too much to be a true neutral. It really just promoted hardcore camping and spamming with such a huge platform to play on.

That is just my opinion, but here is an even better point. Do we really need more neutrals? As it stands we have Final Destination, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Wario Ware as neutral stages (some may go against Wario Ware because it is so small, but with the extended blastzones I feel it is fine). That is plenty of neutral stages as far as I'm concerned, and that is only a conservative list (some use stages like Delphino as a neutral). I would MUCH rather have a more diverse set of stages to play on than more neutrals. I can't really say which I like better concerning Deadlands or the Mansion (I love the Mansion as a counterpick, but I did grow attached to Deadlands), but the Sandbag is a great addition. It makes for a more diverse counterpick list which makes for a more diverse game overall.

I would suggest to slow down the stage though, for the same reason as to why Luigi's Mansion was slowed down (the mansion returned too fast to actually allow players to take advantage of its absence). You should be able to get rid of the Sandbag and actually have time to play without him. It would force characters to actually put effort into keeping him onstage if they have no other way to deal with projectile spam, and actually reward the characters who would rather have him off the stage for doing so.

Personally, I applaud BBrawl for taking the initiative to create a more diverse stagelist (probably the only thing I think they did right to try to do). Some just flat out don't work, like Spirit Pillar and Temple, but others like Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, Big Blue, and Green Greens (<3) become much more playable with the changes, and can really be considered for viable counterpicks. I can't wait for further possibilities because a viable Port Town would be amazing to add on to a hopefully growing list of counterpicks.

As far as hitlag is concerned, everybody give this post a read if you haven't. Really shows how little the change actually does. I looked at it myself, and he is right; most attacks have like 1 frame of extra hitlag in 60% compared to 50%.

 

[MK26]

Philly, just get the 4.2 gct, and use the gct-->bin button in the tweaker

EDIT: Plum, dont forget Lylat Cruise. Seven is enough neutrals

 

[[TSON]]

I can't seem to get Mario to walk (not run) anymore. He just freezes in place on the 7-10 build...

 

[FrozenHobo]

As I see it, the Sandbag is a refreshing reason for me to actually play the stage.

Prior, it was just a longer FD with different blast zones. If I want to play an FD like stage, I will just play FD.
And who ever said that the WiFi waiting room had to be neutral? If anything I would put it under counterpick even with the Sandbag as a dollar like it was last build. The stage itself was so large that I would argue it effected gameplay too much to be a true neutral. It really just promoted hardcore camping and spamming with such a huge platform to play on.

That is just my opinion, but here is an even better point. Do we really need more neutrals? As it stands we have Final Destination, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Wario Ware as neutral stages (some may go against Wario Ware because it is so small, but with the extended blastzones I feel it is fine). That is plenty of neutral stages as far as I'm concerned, and that is only a conservative list (some use stages like Delphino as a neutral). I would MUCH rather have a more diverse set of stages to play on than more neutrals. I can't really say which I like better concerning Deadlands or the Mansion (I love the Mansion as a counterpick, but I did grow attached to Deadlands), but the Sandbag is a great addition. It makes for a more diverse counterpick list which makes for a more diverse game overall.

fine, make it a CP, but don't just add in a gimmicky stage 'because it adds variety'. i'm not going to learn how to use sandbag as a wall in a game where i'm supposed to worry about my opponent attacking me rather than how i'm going to move an item into place so its can stop projectiles. i don't see how sandbag adds anything competitive to the game. as far as i can see it will only promote camping and wind up taking us back to vBrawl with silly stages that serve no purpose (vWW).



also, most people are still calling it a neutral despite the sandbag, and i'm NOT playing on that stage as a neutral.

 

[Plum]

but that was the point of B+, to take away the gimmicky BS and make a game built solely for competitive play. you're doing the exact opposite by putting a gimmicky stage BACK into B+. its hypocritical.

Isn't every counterpick stage just some gimick?
Norfair, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, Pirate Ship, Pokemon Stadium 1, Pictochat, and literally EVERY counterpick stage are gimicky. But they are still fully competitive, and make a unique competitive element by giving players the option to choose stages to their advantage.

The Sandbag encourages competitive play by giving a more rich and diverse stage list to choose from. I would much rather have this, than a Final Destination ripoff.

 

[CountKaiser]

Man, people are getting all bent out of shape over the sandbag. If it didn't ruin the camera, it'd be awesome. Frankly, before the new mansion and this, we had three FD's that everyone seemed to like. Frankly, I'm tired of flat stages. We only needed one that's not gay in the first place. This is a refreshing change of pace.

I for one enjoy diverse, yet playable stages. They don't bore me half to death when I chose FD version 3.0 for the fifth time.

EDIT: How does the sandbag promote camping? It ruins projectiles. If anything it stops camping.

 

[FrozenHobo]

The Sandbag encourages competitive play by giving a more rich and diverse stage list to choose from. I would much rather have this, than a Final Destination ripoff.

i can just sit by the sandbag all match and just abuse my opponent if he even tries to approach. all i have to do is sit back and let him come to me. yes, other CPs are gimmicky, but with B+ they have been changed to encourage less camping. if you're just going to bring in a portable wall, then how is that supposed to make me want to fight the other guy? it doesn't. why should i go to him if i can just sit behind my nice mobile wall and **** him if he tries to approach?

 

[Roager]

fine, make it a CP, but don't just add in a gimmicky stage 'because it adds variety'. i'm not going to learn how to use sandbag as a wall in a game where i'm supposed to worry about my opponent attacking me rather than how i'm going to move an item into place so its can stop projectiles. i don't see how sandbag adds anything competitive to the game. as far as i can see it will only promote camping and wind up taking us back to vBrawl with silly stages that serve no purpose (vWW).



also, most people are still calling it a neutral despite the sandbag, and i'm NOT playing on that stage as a neutral.

So, the stage that is basically FD, except with different death boundaries and a Sandbag to block projectiles, promotes camping?

How the hell is it both campy and projectile-blocking?

 

[FrozenHobo]

So, the stage that is basically FD, except with different death boundaries and a Sandbag to block projectiles, promotes camping?

How the hell is it both campy and projectile-blocking?

not all camping is with projectiles.

 

[jokey665]

not all camping is with projectiles.

If you're not camping with projectiles then having a sandbag has absolutely no effect on what you're doing.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i can just sit by the sandbag all match and just abuse my opponent if he even tries to approach. all i have to do is sit back and let him come to me. yes, other CPs are gimmicky, but with B+ they have been changed to encourage less camping. if you're just going to bring in a portable wall, then how is that supposed to make me want to fight the other guy? it doesn't. why should i go to him if i can just sit behind my nice mobile wall and **** him if he tries to approach?

If you're not camping with projectiles then having a sandbag has absolutely no effect on what you're doing.

read. i have no reason to approach. if he has to come through a wall to get me then why should i bother going to him? its the bridge of eldin problem: once the center breaks you can either wait it out or one of you can go to the other side and get wrecked. only this time the obstruction never goes away.

 

[jokey665]

read. i have no reason to approach. if he has to come through a wall to get me then why should i bother going to him? its the bridge of eldin problem: once the center breaks you can either wait it out or one of you can go to the other side and get wrecked. only this time the obstruction never goes away.

Let's say neither character in the match has a single projectile. How does the sandbag help camping?

And camping behind a sandbag against a character that DOES have projectiles will be of varying effectiveness. I believe that projectiles knock sandbag around, correct? Also, you've always been able to just ledgecamp if you don't want to approach a projectile spammer.

 

[Plum]

i can just sit by the sandbag all match and just abuse my opponent if he even tries to approach. all i have to do is sit back and let him come to me. yes, other CPs are gimmicky, but with B+ they have been changed to encourage less camping. if you're just going to bring in a portable wall, then how is that supposed to make me want to fight the other guy? it doesn't. why should i go to him if i can just sit behind my nice mobile wall and **** him if he tries to approach?

Yeah, because this is vBrawl and defense is clearly the best way to win. Clearly approaching is the most ******** thing to do in Brawl+. Especially when there is a pseudo wall in front of me that actually does nothing to prevent my character from passing through it and approaching like normal, while at the same time doing not doing anything to help my opponent stop my approach unless its a projectile approach.

I also did suggest that the stage be slowed down to actually reward the player for intentionally knocking the sandbag off the stage. Right now, it immediately respawns as soon as it is knocked off, I think it would be much better to have a period of no sandbag after it is knocked off. That way it doesn't prove to be an over centralizing tactic on the stage to just ***** the sandbag against projectiles, because the other player could knock it off and be given a period of an empty stage.

 

[CloneHat]

Just because you force someone to stop camping, it doesn't mean you can "**** their approach." This is not Vanilla Brawl. You whine about the gimmicks and the items when it in no way obstructs competitive play; it simply makes it a flat course with more than zero traits.

 

[Yingyay]

My question is if they intentionally left the sandbag there?
The sandbag is a huge problem, anyone who disagrees is just arguing for no reason. One reason they're being silly is because when it wasn't there nobody complained about it. <--- reason 2, 3, 4 and 5.

 

[leafbarrett]

Fsmash comes out pretty quick and has long range... it definitely does not need a cool down change because of those two reasons, if it was even changed in the slightest in cool down, it could become spammable (and that isn't good). So, no to that suggestion.

Exactly why I figured it was me being dumb.
What about my suggestion for Falcon?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Let's say neither character in the match has a single projectile. How does the sandbag help camping?

And camping behind a sandbag against a character that DOES have projectiles will be of varying effectiveness. I believe that projectiles knock sandbag around, correct? Also, you've always been able to just ledgecamp if you don't want to approach a projectile spammer.

very few projectiles send the sandbag far (i think only lucario and samus's really have any power to move him vertically). and the opponent would still have to approach unless they're dashing there is a slight 'pushing' animation where the other person has to move the sandbag to get through. if i'm using, say, ICs, then i just space a desynced blizzard to hit them as they move through the bag, pull them in, and begin grab ******.

Yeah, because this is vBrawl and defense is clearly the best way to win. Clearly approaching is the most ******** thing to do in Brawl+. Especially when there is a pseudo wall in front of me that actually does nothing to prevent my character from passing through it and approaching like normal, while at the same time doing not doing anything to help my opponent stop my approach unless its a projectile approach.

I also did suggest that the stage be slowed down to actually reward the player for intentionally knocking the sandbag off the stage. Right now, it immediately respawns as soon as it is knocked off, I think it would be much better to have a period of no sandbag after it is knocked off. That way it doesn't prove to be an over centralizing tactic on the stage to just ***** the sandbag against projectiles, because the other player could knock it off and be given a period of an empty stage.

i've done it. hell, i played with my friends today and all i had to do was sit by the sandbag and wait for them to approach. approaching is just fine, but when you have to move through a wall to get to me then why bother? i'm going to play to win, and if that means i have to play gay then i will. i can essentially jab right after it gets hit by a samus charge shot or lucario sphere to stop the momentum, so technically i can have it in front of me for a long time. and if i do go out of my way to destroy the bag (which i shouldn't NEED to do in a game which is supposed to be focussed on attacking your opponent) then it becomes a FD knock off again until it re spawns and then i can just camp it again.

 

[CloneHat]

It's not like the sandbag limits your approaches. "OMG I hav 2 wak threw the bag!"

No.

It is a shield from projectiles. It does not hinder movement. Your blizzard strategy can be used on any stage, anywhere, it's not like your opponents are going to walk straight into it every time.

 

[Plum]

i've done it. hell, i played with my friends today and all i had to do was sit by the sandbag and wait for them to approach. approaching is just fine, but when you have to move through a wall to get to me then why bother? i'm going to play to win, and if that means i have to play gay then i will. i can essentially jab right after it gets hit by a samus charge shot or lucario sphere to stop the momentum, so technically i can have it in front of me for a long time. and if i do go out of my way to destroy the bag (which i shouldn't NEED to do in a game which is supposed to be focussed on attacking your opponent) then it becomes a FD knock off again until it re spawns and then i can just camp it again.

You are acting like the sandbag makes every character a defensive powerhouse; and I'm sorry but that is just wrong.

The sandbag does nothing to prevent your ability to approach besides a slight pushing effect when you run through it. Yeah, that little push effect just totally turned this into a vBrawl style defensive camp fest.
The sandbag does nothing at all to augment a defensive game, besides a defense against projectiles. If my attack has enough range I can still hit you through the sandbag, and even if a character lacks that range they have every right to pass through the sandbag, or jump over it and proceed to attack you. If you have the ability to stop their approach with a sandbag there, then you have every ability to stop their approach without the sandbag there.

The way you are putting it, it's like you are saying Marth can't use his Fair, or G&W can't use his Bair, or Link can't use his Zair all to hit you anyways regardless if you are standing right behind the sandbag. Want to know something? That is just ******** because it does nothing to augment any defense except projectile defense.

 

[DrCrawford]

Agreed, someone needs to get the Sandbag out of there immediately. It interrupts the entire match, it serves no positive purpose at all. I don't like the fact that Luigi's Mansion was put back the way it was, the control test stage has no business being there since as far as I can tell it has no death boundaries, and the new stage select screen in general is really weird looking. I'm starting to like the old 4.2 better.

agreed 110%

 

[FrozenHobo]

if i'm sitting right behind the bag then they are. the only way to get to me is through the bag, plus, it extends the duration of hitboxes, so when they do come through i can start pretty much any attack and it will last longer. other stages at least give the other person an aerial approaching option. with the sandbag most characters other than those with multi jumps will wind up coming down through the bag, so if they try to hit me i can power shield or dash back and punish the longer initial frames and extended end lag. if they try a grounded close range attack then the bag extends frames and lets me punish on the ground too.

and as you said, its a projectile shield so there's no threat of being forced to move by practically all projectiles.

 

[CloneHat]

So what your saying is, you've never played against a character with no projectile options?

 

[GameSystem]

Dash dance in front of the bag, bait a spot dodge or shield or w/e, grab. It's like it isn't even there.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i can sit behind it and wait for c. falcon to approach. he can
a) falcon kick
b) fsmash to send it flying
c) try to tilt/jab me through the bag
d) dash attack through the bag
e) try to to jump over the bag/nair me while going through the bag
f) time his knee to start right after he passes the bag

i could keep going, but you'll notice that all of those force him to try to attack through the bag or time an attack to pass the bag and pray he doesn't get punished.

Dash dance in front of the bag, bait a spot dodge or shield or w/e, grab. It's like it isn't even there.

and if you against a person who doesn't fall for you mindgame/doesn't spot dodge like a dip ****, what then?

 

[Roager]

...all of those force him to try to attack through the bag or time an attack to pass the bag and pray he doesn't get punished.

...Kinda like if the bag wasn't there. That's why Falcon was bottom in vBrawl. He'd try to approach, and pray he didn't get punished.

 

[FrozenHobo]

...Kinda like if the bag wasn't there. That's why Falcon was bottom in vBrawl. He'd try to approach, and pry he didn't get punished.

you just proved my point. this bag puts us back in the same situation as vBrawl where you can't approach safely. and its not like if the bag wasn't even there' because you're still worrying about the bag, which means it is JUST like its there, because it is.

 

[jokey665]

you just proved my point. this bag puts us back in the same situation as vBrawl where you can't approach safely. and its not like if the bag wasn't even there' because you're still worrying about the bag, which means it is JUST like its there, because it is.

Uhh... what? Seriously, you're not making any sense. I know I wouldn't worry about the bag at all if I was approaching. It really doesn't change your options at all.

 

[Plum]

if i'm sitting right behind the bag then they are. the only way to get to me is through the bag, plus, it extends the duration of hitboxes, so when they do come through i can start pretty much any attack and it will last longer. other stages at least give the other person an aerial approaching option. with the sandbag most characters other than those with multi jumps will wind up coming down through the bag, so if they try to hit me i can power shield or dash back and punish the longer initial frames and extended end lag. if they try a grounded close range attack then the bag extends frames and lets me punish on the ground too.

and as you said, its a projectile shield so there's no threat of being forced to move by practically all projectiles.

How is the only way to hit you through the bag if you are directly behind the sandbag?
What's to stop me from jumping behind you and hitting you with my Bair? Maybe I RAR right before jumping and hit you with my Fair instead. What if I have a powerful Dair? I jump above you and hit you directly from above.

The only way for you to ever be able to completely shut me down was if your character itself actually had the ability to shut down every single one of my approaches. And if your character can do that, than you can certainly do it with or without the sandbag.

The hitlag is much smaller in B+ that I highly doubt there is going to be such a drastic difference in hitting through the sandbag or not that every option is instantly useless like you say. Even so, there are so many options besides attacking through the sandbag. Maybe the hitlag makes it such a bad idea to attack through the sandbag; then I just won't attack through the sandbag and use my other options. Maybe you just need to learn to use those options instead of attacking straight through the sandbag.

 

[leafbarrett]

...Arguing... over a stupid sandbag? The only thing it changes is that you can't shoot someone all the way across the stage with a projectile (depending on where the sandbag is at the moment). Any approach you'd make would be 100% identical to the same approach if the sandbag wasn't there. IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. If you hate it that much play on FD instead.
If you're going to have a huge argument, at least argue about something important, not somethnig as trivial as a sandbag.