just like to point out that you keep pointing out factors such as "speed" and "power"... but you don't seem to add in that there are different degrees.
like in the above ike vs. marth battle. marth has power and speed, and ike just has power. ike may be able to win because he has A LOT of power
........
it's not that simple just saying that a character has speed, power, ko potential, recovery, etc..... some characters exceed very much more than others in these categories. it's not just "have" and "have not".
Did I not touch upon this?
It's not enough to have just one or two of the Big 5 Things To Have For Top Tier. You must posses at least 3-4 to even be High Tier. Even if you have but one of them in spades. Ike is really strong, but his strongest moves take forever to startup. They can't be comboed into because of the reduced hitstun + huge startup. They can't be mindgamed into unless the opponent rolls into Ike and he starts the attacks up before they actually roll.
And if you randomly throw them out, people could just let go of their shield and poke you (no CC). They'll make good edgeguarding power if you can time them well, however, I guess. I mean, how often do you see Ike landing a forward smash for example?
Meanwhile, Marth can just look for an opening and then combo you away. Others can as well. It's just that Marth can KO you at the end of said combo.
Bashing Brawl's balance after a couple weeks of personal gameplay is little more than trolling. You know as well as I do that any assumptions made at this stage have no credibility. Putting aside the amount of time it takes to formulate a true tier list, it takes a massive number of people running the game over with a fine-tooth comb to figure this stuff out. You're trying to rub people's expectations of the game in the dirt before they've even had a chance to touch it. You're free to express your concerns but all you're doing here is trying to bring people down. Blind optimism isn't very productive but nobody likes a pessimist.
I'm expressing my opinion. I don't see you flaming people for expressing their opinions as long as they're positive or agree with yours. I'm stating what I believe to be true. People are free to believe me or not. Only idiots would read someone's posts online, not test them out IRL and assume that the game is good/bad based on what said person said.
Especially not when I specifically state that this is just my opinion and that I might very well be wrong, as opposed to the many people who unabashedly have stated that Brawl is more balanced as if it were cold hard fact.
Me trolling? Pot - Kettle - much?
Well it's not the only thing that separates them obviously, lol. But it is one thing.
Outside of this forum, I hope you know that the majority of the Smash community cannot do these advanced exploits/techs/glitches/whatever you want to call them. The competitive scene is the tiny little slice on the pie chart of the Smash industry and community. They're not going to cater to your advantage, Nintendo is obviously going to cater to trying to get new players to be more accessible to Brawl, therefore leveling the gap between the two groups. =P
Joined recently? I had been browsing these forums for over a year before joining, and this is precisely why. Because people are too butthurt about other people's point-of-views that they have to call them "idiotic" and "failure". You assume I have no competitive knowledge of Melee. LOL.
Perhaps it balanced things out in that aspect, but the fact that they were unnecessary and unnatural techniques in the gameplay, drew a harsh line of division between the competitive and casual community, which caused far more imbalance in my opinion, then they could provide in benefits to the community.
What is this obsession with minimizing the gap between competitive and casual play? Do you realize what that means?! If you really want to minimize the gap as much as possible, then you have to remove pretty much all depth wherein a game is pure mindgames based on so limited options even people who've only just been palying for a week could win against people who've been playing for a year.
You'd have to throw away all learning curves, anything that required more than rudimentary maneuvres, etc., etc., etc. In other words, the game would be extremely boring and limited.
In every single game in existence, there's a gap between Casuals and Competitives... unless the game itself lacks depth...
Even without the options Melee had, the gap will still be there. The Competitives will still possess superior mindgames and knowledge of the game.
And I still have never heard of someone whose enjoyment of the game was ruined by the mere existence of wavedashing. What did it bother them that it existed? Nobody forced them to use it or play against people who did!
Yuna, who have you fought/what have you experimented with in this game to come to the conclusion that the characters I said will not be able to place in tournaments or win?
If you could, give me some analysis for a few of the characters I named and why you believe Marth and Toon Link will definitely dominate them in the competitive scene.
I know I named very good characters in 3S, but that is still quite a lot. 3S is fairly balanced.
My point is that so is Melee.
I realize Melee had a decent amount of characters who could place. I'm interested in knowing what about Brawl's system and mechanic thus far make you think it will be less balanced rather than more. If feel, if anything, that the new system allows for more balance.
The new system would be more balanced if the characters themselves were more balanced.
The new shielding system and hit- and shieldstun system might seem more balanced since everyone has the same options... only Marth breaks all rules. Let's see... you space an attack but he powershields it. Instant shieldhopped fair or bair. You tilt him and then try to follow up with a combo move. Too bad, fair in the face.
Meanwhile, combos were nerfed by the new physics... only Marth can still combo. And most importantly, using the right moves, he can still
combo into a tipper. His recovery has been boosted by leaps and bounds, along with everyone else's. Edgeguarding has been nerfed in general, yet he can still do everything he did in Melee pretty well. And he still dishes out damage pretty well. And he can
actually approach safely. How many people can still do that?
Lowered ceilings makes for easier KOs with U-tilt and Uair (and tipper, even).
Marth happens to be one of the characters I've explored the most.
Anyway, all of these things wouldn't really be much of a problem if it weren't for the fact that
almost no other characters can do all of these things. Which makes Marth an obvious candidate for Top Tier along with Pikmin & Olimar and Toon Link or some other. Then follows those who can do many of the Big 5, but not all, then a whole slew of Blahs who either can only do a few of them, are mediocre at everything or who excels in only one or two of them.
And then we have the bottom tier. The lack of combos makes it vital to have combos (very few characters still have them). It's also vital to have high-damaging moves (very few have these... at least not ones that are either fast and/or comboable into). In a game where it's pretty hard to KO
and edgeguard, it's also vital to be able to KO well (few have this as well). But then there are the few who have
all of them (hello, Top Tier), the few who have
some of them (hello, High Tier) and then the rest are blahs to sucks.
What about the "apparent" gameplay tweaks in the American version? DMBrandon says that Marth's fair got nerfed and Falco's lasers are a bit slower amongst other things.
Sounds good. If they're going to for once listen to the competitive gamers instead of the casual ones for game balance tweaks, then we might get somewhere. It could just be a fluke. Sakurai
did consider it balanced to have Marth as he originally was and nerf Falco to hell, for instance.
Really, the reason why people are saying Brawl seems more balanced is because it just "feels" that way. There are so many character-specific techniques this time that it feels like every character has a chance at winning against others. Lucario is really weak, but due to small statistical perks such as his fast, safe roll, useful Dair, good tilts and seemingly solid traction when shielding attacks, he has enough potential to be competent despite his slow, weak smash attacks and lack of damage-dealing power.
Yes, but he'll be no Toon Link (I'll start using Toon Link as an example now as Marth's apparently been nerfed).
Does the fair-lag make it useless for approach now? Like, if you shield his fair, he'll lag so much you can shieldhop an aerial? Or does it just keep him from spamming shorthop fairs?
Another reason that people may think Brawl is more balanced is because almost every character looks to have a counterpick. Marth has a heck of a hard time getting around Lucas's PK waveland spamming shenanigans, and can no longer just afford to fsmash through everything and everyone because of the decreased range. And in the US version, he's not going to be approaching with shorthopped Fairs either because of the new lag. The only characters I can think of who don't have a clear weakness would be Toon Link and Wolf, and even Wolf can be gimped and edge guarded without too much of a problem.
But then again, Lucas is pretty good, isn't he? Marth still has a whole bunch of other moves, especially now that CC:ing is out.
And then we still have Toon Link, I guess.
Thirdly, it's almost like the tier list got turned upside down partially. Due to the floatier physics engine of brawl, the floatier, weaker characters have mostly gotten more powerful. Ness is nastier than he's ever been and Luigi is just flat-out good this time around. Kirby also no longer struggles with a majority of the cast.
Of course the tier list changed from Melee. But did it become more balanced? That's the question at hand.
Personally, I think that Brawl won't be MORE balanced than Melee, but there certainly are MORE characters that are viable for tournament play. I doubt that everyone will be stuck playing Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik on final destination all the time. So far it looks like Marth, Toon Link, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Ness, Lucas, Dedede, Lucario(somewhat), Olimar, Pikachu, Snake, Sonic(possibly) and Metaknight are at least viable for serious competition.
I can agree on that. Only looks can be deceiving.
For one thing, Brawl has more characters, so it
should have more viable characters. For another, Melee wasn't as imbalanced as some think. We regularly saw High Tiers and Mid Tiers place well... especially in PAL where Sheik can't gimp everyone with downthrow.
Just don't expect melee.
