Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Tyr_03]

lol yeah Yuna's actually usually right regardless of what some people think. And he's pretty beastly in Melee too. Just tends to get on people's nerves with his reactionary posts and negativity. But whatever he's still right.

 

[sagemoon]

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but Wario has been floating around the upper mid and high tier area of the list. He's really good. It's not the "low v.s high" that you seem to think it is. I'm also confused as to how you got the idea that the Melee pros were only good with one character and didn't have multiple counterpicks...

Right now, the reason for the huge character variety, is that people don't know any better. In early Melee there was a lot more variety than late Melee. Good options were harder to differentiate from bad ones, but as time went on, we figured out that Kirby, Roy, Pichu, G&W, Young Link, etc. weren't very good. They phased out of the metagame. The fact that you think current low tier character placing well means the game's more balanced shows a lack of foresight, to me. Do you really think that we're going to see low tier characters placing well in four years?

note: I didn't name specific characters at the end because I have no idea who's going to eventually find their way to the bottom. Link might end up being much higher than we both think he is.

Wario was considered low tier by most until the california tournaments. melee pros had about 3 characters (all in high tier) that they used. I'm talking about that on a much larger level because of the way counterpicks seem to work. I'm saying that the metagame will be different than melee. The low tier placing high were to show snake isnt as "god tier" as everyone is saying. Maybe its just coincidence but ppl seem to be like "this game isnt balanced because only snake or metaknight wins"

I'm not saying there isnt a tier list and characters in top tier arent better. I'm saying that in this game, counterpicking will be greater than tiers.

...Maybe you should have found better people to play, or gotten better yourself. If your opponents were killing you and it felt mechanical, you couldn't have been changing your patterns much or reading theirs well. This all sounds more like a personal problem than a game wide problem. I mained Ganondorf and I never felt that gimp kills or combos were imbalanced at all.

Lol at your ignorance, I played good people such as silent wolf, eggz, ka-master, bladewise, jumpfreak, etc. All the good ppl in washington. Not only that but i was a powerranked player in melee. And yes it did feel like there was a set way to be killed that never failed from a grab. *cough up throw up air w/ fox*

 

[Lavos]

Wario was considered low tier by most until the california tournaments. melee pros had about 3 characters (all in high tier) that they used. I'm talking about that on a much larger level because of the way counterpicks seem to work. I'm saying that the metagame will be different than melee. The low tier placing high were to show snake isnt as "god tier" as everyone is saying. Maybe its just coincidence but ppl seem to be like "this game isnt balanced because only snake or metaknight wins"

I'm not saying there isnt a tier list and characters in top tier arent better. I'm saying that in this game, counterpicking will be greater than tiers.




Lol at your ignorance, I played good people such as silent wolf, eggz, ka-master, bladewise, jumpfreak, etc. All the good ppl in washington. Not only that but i was a powerranked player in melee. And yes it did feel like there was a set way to be killed that never failed from a grab. *cough up throw up air w/ fox*

I think we're both seeing the counterpicky nature of the game showing up, but I can't see it happening on the level you're seeing it. I can't possibly see the top playing needing to know Characters A, B, C, D, E ,F, and G because between them he can reasonably counter most of the cast. I think it's going to come down to to top player needing to know characters A, B, and maybe C. A would work well vs. one half of the cast, B works well vs. the other half and C is personal preference. Character D > E > F > D triangle could happen, but it would be irrelevant if character B can wipe the floor with all of them.

Personally, I hope the game doesn't become that counterpicky! Wouldn't it make the game more unbalanced if it was? Matches could come down to who picked the bigger counter rather than who was the better player! Not cool!

Well, this certainly explains why you feel like things are mechanical in Melee! You've been playing Silent Wolf! He doesn't use mindgames, he just does finger gymnastics on the controller!

lol

I've been playing Cunning Kitsune, Njzfinest and Kirkq on a regular basis, so we can stop trying to take pot shots at the other's pro experience. I also got to play HoChiMhin Trail, but I don't think he was playing his hardest.

 

[nitnit]

Disregard this, I forgot to quote.

 

[Yuna]

I'd say with this taken into consideration, brawl is more balanced. Not to mention the fact that theres a lot more variation in characters used in the tournaments. You just have to look at the game a little more than one dimensional. Eventually counterpicking will become a big part of the metagame in my opinion.

This is nothing new, all games have this, Melee and pretty much almost all other fighting games in existence. The tier list is not the end of all things. The individual matchup list is more accurate if you want a deeper insight, but that's not the end of all things, either.

Individual skill will always be more important, it's just that the Tier list and the Matchup Chart will give a pretty good indication of who'll win.

Well would that not be the same case for melee?
"My Yoshi have beaten Meta-Knights and Snakes, who are supposedly Top Tier material".

Obviously he was a more skilled player then the Mk's and Snakes he played at the time, from your view, because you stated "Tiers aren't everything, individual skill still trumphs tiers"

Never said it didn't. He thinks Brawl is more balanced than Melee because of it. I'm merely saying "Not really".

But in melee, this was pretty much the same case. If you were to see a good Yoshi at the same skill level as a good Marth, Fox, Falco, etc. your probability of winning was very slim because of the more opportunities/range/combos/ko moves/etc. given to those characters.

Yoshi actually didn't get so ***** by these three because of his edgeguarding against Fox and Falco (Dsmash and D-tilt) and combos on them. His high priority moves could also go through Marth's sword. I'm not 100% on if the matchups were neutral or just slightly at a disadvantage, though. He didn't get *****, that's all I'm saying.

To try to compare the balance of these 2 games to clarify which is, in fact, more balanced is very difficult and you may never get that answer. There are so many differences to these games its its inbelievable. Some characters were buffed, many were nerfed, new strats must rise, new matchup tactics must be made. It's all new and veryy difficult to say which is more balanced. Both games in my opinion were/are very fun and we still have much to learn.

Which game is more balanced will have to be determined by:
* How many characters are viable in tournaments?
* How many aren't?
* Among those viable, how even is it between the tiers themselves and the characters in each tier (as in High vs. Top and then each Top vs. each Top, etc.)?
Among other things

It's still too early for questions of this calibur. Melee had roughly 7 years to evolve into the fast-paced exhilarating game we all loved and knew about. Brawl hasn't been given that chance yet and most of the old-schoolers dont want to give it that chance. Nobody knows what AT's, strategies, glitches, are still in this game to make it faster/better/more balanced.

Yes, it is still too early. I agreed on this a long time ago.

So some characters have no shot of winning. It's very few.
Melee was pretty much the same case. Except very fewer. But in ratio there were also less characters.

More characters = More factors = Harder to balance

I have to agree with dojo on practically every point. In hindsight, this thread is completely pointless. Look out though, your statements about the game not being developed yet may get replied to by Yuna with "blah blah blah", since when I made this point that's the exact response I get. He'll then go on to justify it saying that "blah blah blah" trumps your statement. Don't worry though, the people in the back room that he continues to worship all disagree with him anyways. No wonder so many people think he's some sort of smashboards god!

1) It wasn't very pointless when the thread was first created (months ago) when every other thread would have people spamming "We should drop Melee, Brawl is obviously more balanced!" or "We should keep Melee, Melee is obviously more balanced!", which is why I created a thread to determine which one was true. It was also decided months ago that it's... too... soon... to... tell. The fact that new users have missed this and keep carrying on a now moot argument isn't my or anyone else's who was around then's fault.
2) Dojo said what he said in a very intelligent way. As such, I would never reply to him in a stupid way. You, however, replied in an inflammatory and pretty stupid way.
3) I never said "Blah blah blah" trumphs your argument. The rest of that post did. "Blah blah blah" was just because the paragraph being replied to was without substance and no real reply was necessary. But I couldn't just ignore it because then you might ask why I ignored it. In other words, it was a paragraph that was so unnecessary no reply was required.
4) What AlphaZealot meant was that a lot of people disagree with me on Melee being more balanced than Brawl because he jumped into the conversation without reading the posts that came before, at least I'm pretty sure this is what he meant. He was one of the people who disagreed with me originally and made me realize that it's still too soon to make a definite judgment.

 

[Yuna]

Wario was considered low tier by most until the california tournaments. melee pros had about 3 characters (all in high tier) that they used. I'm talking about that on a much larger level because of the way counterpicks seem to work. I'm saying that the metagame will be different than melee. The low tier placing high were to show snake isnt as "god tier" as everyone is saying. Maybe its just coincidence but ppl seem to be like "this game isnt balanced because only snake or metaknight wins"

Then those people didn't really know what they were talking about. The minute I faced my friend's Wario, I knew he (Wario) was good because of some of the crap he could pull off. His attacks are deceptively fast and has huge priority (often out-prioritizing Marth), he's got super-armor moves on some Smashes... that are fast. His smashes have huge shieldknockback, letting him knock you back off the edge, he can KO well and early. His motorcycle is fast and can KO.

Anyone who claimed him to be Low Tier had just not explored him enough or played anyone who has. And what Low Tiers are placing high, anyway? Are you saying that because some people thought Wario was Low Tier and then he magically placed high and people reconsidered, this means the game is balanced?

When Melee first came out, a lot of the characters were misplaced. A lot of eventual Top-, High- and Mid Tiers were very low down on the tierlist. Why? Because the Meta-game hadn't get been developed. We didn't know everything there was to know. People were just plain wrong in their assesments.

Peach, Marth, Fox, Falco, ICs, those were only some of the characters who were ranked as Low Tier (IIRC). Marth was ranked below Roy whom people thought was better... 'til Ken stepped it up. Peach was ranked low 'til Mike G. appeared and showed everyone just what Float Canceling could do. Fox and Falco were low 'til people discovered the uses of jumpcanceling the shine, ICs were low 'til Chu Dat and others showed them what beasts they can be.

People being wrong when the game is first released regarding tiers =/= Balance. It's just people being wrong.

I'm not saying there isnt a tier list and characters in top tier arent better. I'm saying that in this game, counterpicking will be greater than tiers.

This is this and that is that. As Lavos (I think) said, that doesn't equate to balance, especially not if the characters who counter each other are from pretty much the same tiers/top echelon. Also, there were plenty of Low Tier characters who were counters or just plain good matchups against the Tops and Highs in Melee. People just didn't play as them.

Lol at your ignorance, I played good people such as silent wolf, eggz, ka-master, bladewise, jumpfreak, etc. All the good ppl in washington. Not only that but i was a powerranked player in melee. And yes it did feel like there was a set way to be killed that never failed from a grab. *cough up throw up air w/ fox*

DI away from him. You'll end up behind him. Works with a lot of characters, like Peach. DI:ing like that will prevent a full jump Up-air from connecting.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

"Choknater": 1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
5: Darc (Snake)

 

[Browny]

thats what happens when people dont play pikachu, snakes time will come soon enough...

 

[SuperRacoon]

With Brawl general character knowledges is more important than it was in Melee. It's probably the main reason why Ike is gonna end up low tier, everyone used Ike, everyone knows he strengths, weaknesses, and style. So really, if your have trouble beating a character first play as that until you are sick. Then chose what ever character else and see what he can do that trumps the "top tier" material.

 

[Ace55]

D@mnit Yuna, stop posting these well written, only on the subject, well thought out responses. How am I gonna disagree with you this way?

 

[Corigames]

By being a n00b?

Seriously. Everyone here isn't going to change their mind on anything. I propose that we just all agree that melee was more balanced. End of discussion. /thread

 

[Shök]

IMHO

TOP
-Marth
-Meta Knight
-Toon Link
-Snake
-Falco
-Olimar

It's not too balanced.
These guys completely dominate everyone save each other.

BOTTOM
-Shiek (No Kill Potential)
-Samus
-Yoshi
-Bowser
-Ganon
-CF

These guys suck, they get owned by everybody

 

[NoVaLombardia]

Easy Chaingrabs

Easy Infinites

All countering another character

nuff said

 

[GA Peach]

well, after playing the game extensively, even though i disagreed with Yuna in the past, i am agreeing with him now in saying that Brawl has a major balance problem. For example, i like the changes made to Peach's moves, and it makes a lot of them more viable, but they took away any killing power she had in Melee. Usmash is he only reliable kill move, but on some characters, (i.e. Lucario or anyone with a decent dair) landing that move is nigh impossible. Then, there are characters like Marth. Even though his range was decreased, his speed was increased, and tipper strength was given to all of his moves, even jabs. He can also KO very well, and can combo into his KO moves. His moves at the tip also aren't affected heavily by the Stale Moves system. A lot of characters in Brawl just don't have any shot of winning against anyone, of course assuming both people are of similar skill level. This game is just a travesty, IMO. If you are gonna play Smash in a competitive enviroment, just keep playing Melee...

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

Reading this thread makes me wonder how much Melee's meta game could still evolve if Brawl had never existed. I mean, it seems like Mango's Jigg power was only discovered days before Brawl was released (metaphorically)

It's obviously hard to make any long term predictions about the balance of Brawl. However, I don't remember any character dominating with as much ease as Snake does in Brawl. Even the top tiers of Melee's pseudo early tiers didn't dominate relentlessly, they just had a slightly better chance, which led to more people playing them in small tournies, and thus a higher placing on the tier list (looking at you Link).

Assuming Snake/Meta continue their reign of dominance, that an automatic apparent imbalance, unique in that it developed so early in the metagame. For the rest of the cast, I'll watch/participate in/review a years worth of tournies before I ultimately decide. But things arent fairing too well.

 

[Shark Week]

well, after playing the game extensively, even though i disagreed with Yuna in the past, i am agreeing with him now in saying that Brawl has a major balance problem. For example, i like the changes made to Peach's moves, and it makes a lot of them more viable, but they took away any killing power she had in Melee. Usmash is he only reliable kill move, but on some characters, (i.e. Lucario or anyone with a decent dair) landing that move is nigh impossible. Then, there are characters like Marth. Even though his range was decreased, his speed was increased, and tipper strength was given to all of his moves, even jabs. He can also KO very well, and can combo into his KO moves. His moves at the tip also aren't affected heavily by the Stale Moves system. A lot of characters in Brawl just don't have any shot of winning against anyone, of course assuming both people are of similar skill level. This game is just a travesty, IMO. If you are gonna play Smash in a competitive enviroment, just keep playing Melee...

that's incredibly exaggerated...

 

[sagemoon]

Then those people didn't really know what they were talking about. The minute I faced my friend's Wario, I knew he (Wario) was good because of some of the crap he could pull off. His attacks are deceptively fast and has huge priority (often out-prioritizing Marth), he's got super-armor moves on some Smashes... that are fast. His smashes have huge shieldknockback, letting him knock you back off the edge, he can KO well and early. His motorcycle is fast and can KO.

Anyone who claimed him to be Low Tier had just not explored him enough or played anyone who has. And what Low Tiers are placing high, anyway? Are you saying that because some people thought Wario was Low Tier and then he magically placed high and people reconsidered, this means the game is balanced?

When Melee first came out, a lot of the characters were misplaced. A lot of eventual Top-, High- and Mid Tiers were very low down on the tierlist. Why? Because the Meta-game hadn't get been developed. We didn't know everything there was to know. People were just plain wrong in their assesments.

Peach, Marth, Fox, Falco, ICs, those were only some of the characters who were ranked as Low Tier (IIRC). Marth was ranked below Roy whom people thought was better... 'til Ken stepped it up. Peach was ranked low 'til Mike G. appeared and showed everyone just what Float Canceling could do. Fox and Falco were low 'til people discovered the uses of jumpcanceling the shine, ICs were low 'til Chu Dat and others showed them what beasts they can be.

People being wrong when the game is first released regarding tiers =/= Balance. It's just people being wrong.

I get what you're saying here, and i agree. The tier list is flawed in the early game. But how this relates to balance i dont understand. I was pointing out snake was being beaten, therefor hes starting to become less "invincible". And when a variety of characters start winning tournaments, doesnt that mean there is a balace?

Snake dominated tournaments in the beginning because good players picked him up and figured out how to play good with him, setting an example to the rest. However, the strategy of snake is being figured out and his placements are starting to fall. Also one could argue this point even more by looking at Azen, one of the more successful brawlers. He plays a variety of characters and wins tournaments.

This is this and that is that. As Lavos (I think) said, that doesn't equate to balance, especially not if the characters who counter each other are from pretty much the same tiers/top echelon. Also, there were plenty of Low Tier characters who were counters or just plain good matchups against the Tops and Highs in Melee. People just didn't play as them.

Like you said earlier, the tier list doesnt say who's gonna win, it just gives a general idea. That's exactly my point. Counterpicking wont say "Character A will win against Character B" but it still gives a general idea. There's always ways to work around counterpicking. It all comes down to styles in the end.

DI away from him. You'll end up behind him. Works with a lot of characters, like Peach. DI:ing like that will prevent a full jump Up-air from connecting.

First off, I know how to DI but thanks. Fox can chase the DI very easily. The only way to get out of the up throw up air is to DI behind, then smash DI the first hit of up air, but of course you know that.

I've been playing Cunning Kitsune, Njzfinest and Kirkq on a regular basis, so we can stop trying to take pot shots at the other's pro experience. I also got to play HoChiMhin Trail, but I don't think he was playing his hardest.

I said nothing about your skill, sorry if you took it that way. I was just saying you were ignorant of mine.

 

[Corigames]

that's incredibly exaggerated...

that's incredibly exaggerated...

 

[Recognize]

Lies. 10chars

 

[Yuna]

I get what you're saying here, and i agree. The tier list is flawed in the early game. But how this relates to balance i dont understand. I was pointing out snake was being beaten, therefor hes starting to become less "invincible". And when a variety of characters start winning tournaments, doesnt that mean there is a balace?

It means more people are getting better with more characters. It's still way too early to say anything.

Snake dominated tournaments in the beginning because good players picked him up and figured out how to play good with him, setting an example to the rest. However, the strategy of snake is being figured out and his placements are starting to fall. Also one could argue this point even more by looking at Azen, one of the more successful brawlers. He plays a variety of characters and wins tournaments.

Azen is Azen. Also, people are just figuring out the metagames of many other characters. Give it some time the balance will be more fleshed out.

Like you said earlier, the tier list doesnt say who's gonna win, it just gives a general idea. That's exactly my point. Counterpicking wont say "Character A will win against Character B" but it still gives a general idea. There's always ways to work around counterpicking. It all comes down to styles in the end.

Why did you repeat what I just said? We're talking about what balance means to the people who don't seem to know that.

First off, I know how to DI but thanks. Fox can chase the DI very easily. The only way to get out of the up throw up air is to DI behind, then smash DI the first hit of up air, but of course you know that.

Not on Peach or, say, Jiggz he can't. DI behind him, 2nd jump/airdodge = Uair whiffs.

I said nothing about your skill, sorry if you took it that way. I was just saying you were ignorant of mine.

I did not say that. I don't know who you were quoting there but I suggest you edit it. Mind who you quote.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Snake dominated tournaments in the beginning because good players picked him up and figured out how to play good with him, setting an example to the rest. However, the strategy of snake is being figured out and his placements are starting to fall.

Let me reiterate.

1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
5: Darc (Snake)

 

[Mr.C]

Snake dominated tournaments in the beginning because good players picked him up and figured out how to play good with him, setting an example to the rest. However, the strategy of snake is being figured out and his placements are starting to fall.

Ummmmm no. Snake has been dominating the top spots at every tournament with people worth talking about. Most tournaments out of the top 6-7 there are AT LEAST 3-4 Snake players. You people just have to realize Snake ***** very hard.

The real problem is that people fail to mention or realize that Icy's can infinite pretty much every character in the game EXTREMELY easy. I have a feeling this will be a problem in the future if more people start picking Ice Climbers.

 

[HulkingRage]

brawl is one of the most balanced games ever, tiers are not nearly as defining as they used to be, people just don't play certain characters

 

[Mr.C]

brawl is one of the most balanced games ever, tiers are not nearly as defining as they used to be, people just don't play certain characters

I actually laughed IRL at this post.

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

brawl is one of the most balanced games ever, tiers are not nearly as defining as they used to be, people just don't play certain characters

This

Let me reiterate.

1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
5: Darc (Snake)

and this

 

[Shark Week]

that's incredibly exaggerated...

what is this i don't even

 

[Fletch]

brawl is one of the most balanced games ever, tiers are not nearly as defining as they used to be, people just don't play certain characters

You should be banned for this kind of idiocy.

 

[sagemoon]

It means more people are getting better with more characters. It's still way too early to say anything.

If you keep saying its too early to say anything why are you suggesting that brawl is so imba?

people are just figuring out the metagames of many other characters.

so therefor ppl are starting to learn how to play the game and its becoming more balanced as they do so....

Not on Peach or, say, Jiggz he can't. DI behind him, 2nd jump/airdodge = Uair whiffs.

I played marth. But your arguement is invalid thats like saying "Well DDD cant chaingrab falco". Point is they could easily get off 2 up airs or even 3 at times just by grabbing. Which normally followed up after a shine to jab.

I did not say that. I don't know who you were quoting there but I suggest you edit it. Mind who you quote.

Sorry you're right, I meant to quote lavos.

Let me reiterate.

1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
5: Darc (Snake)

Okay so you're telling me that cort and pc chris won using snake. They are good players. I dont know who else entered the tournament but cort and PC coming up on top seems to be a predicted result.

Ummmmm no. Snake has been dominating the top spots at every tournament with people worth talking about. Most tournaments out of the top 6-7 there are AT LEAST 3-4 Snake players. You people just have to realize Snake ***** very hard.

The real problem is that people fail to mention or realize that Icy's can infinite pretty much every character in the game EXTREMELY easy. I have a feeling this will be a problem in the future if more people start picking Ice Climbers.

Ice climbers can chain throw yes. But nana is also very easy to kill. Last tournament I went to. (with all of Washingtons finest, including east washington, minus chip) went like this
1st Kamaji (Snake)
2nd Me (Pit)
3rd Zel (ROB)
4th Bladewize (Marth)
5th Brady (metaknight)
5th deva (Link)

It was no noob tournament. The same ppl in WA that normally attend these attended, including skypal this time. I also heard Chip beat kamaji more than once in tournament over in east washington w/ toon link. Btw Kamaji was the only snake in the top 8. Kamaji is just a good player. He didnt win just because he used snake. Also not to mention I did take the first set off him.

 

[Zankoku]

Ice climbers can chain throw yes. But nana is also very easy to kill. Last tournament I went to. (with all of Washingtons finest, including east washington, minus chip) went like this
1st Kamaji (Snake)
2nd Me (Pit)
3rd Zel (ROB)
4th Bladewize (Marth)
5th Brady (metaknight)
5th deva (Link)

Kind of off topic, but can you link me to this tournament on Smashboards? It's part of a little project.

 

[DarkKnight077]

That WA (I assume is Washington) Didn't have Ka-Master, Eggz, Gimpy nor Slient Wolf there it is a noob tourney.

 

[sagemoon]

Kind of off topic, but can you link me to this tournament on Smashboards? It's part of a little project.

I believe I already did, for your character rankings list right?

That WA (I assume is Washington) Didn't have Ka-Master, Eggz, Gimpy nor Slient Wolf there it is a noob tourney.

Gimpy moved to califonia. It had eggz and silent wolf. Ka-master did not attend for some unknown reason.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Gimpy moved to califonia. It had eggz and silent wolf. Ka-master did not attend for some unknown reason.

I know. :3 I hope I get to face him soon when I come back. Really how they do? Ka-master was probably out. o.o;

Mkie then, gosh you must be good with Pit.

 

[sagemoon]

Eggz got 9th and silent wolf got something below that. It wasnt their best tournament. Sastopher also attended, if you know who that is.

 

[Lavos]

If you keep saying its too early to say anything why are you suggesting that brawl is so imba?

You realize that this same logic works backwards, right? Why do you think Brawl is so balanced when it's too early to tell? Or do you think we've reached a point where we can tell?

so therefor ppl are starting to learn how to play the game and its becoming more balanced as they do so....

I'm not seeing where this assumption is coming from. The game is becoming more balanced because people are learning a variety of characters? Games don't "become" balanced or unbalanced, they either are or are not. It's not somethings that players can effect. We can only figure it out.

As far as I can see, the beginning of Brawl is just like the beginning of Melee. No one knows for sure who's good and who isn't so they try to become good with whoever they want. Eventually, some characters continued to develop and others became somewhat stagnant due to shortcomings of the character. Tiers become apparent!

Why do you believe that things will be different this time around? Especially when there is nothing universal like L canceling, wavedashing, or dash dancing to alleviate the shortcomings of the characters.


Yeah, I think we just had a misunderstanding as to why you were throwing your experience out there. It's irrelevant to the discussion though so let's not worry about it.

 

[sagemoon]

Balance is a matter of what is known currently. For example, there are stuff like wavedashing in melee that was discovered much later in the game. This changed the game and made certain characters a lot better than other characters when they used to be the same. Because of wavedashing, l canceling and various other ATs, it made certain characters top tier and others not so much. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It also seperated good players from bad players, a good player could beat a bad player with any character. The same still applies to brawl.

I dont think its too early to discuss balance. But so far Yunas counter arguement was that it is, completely throwing off his own statement saying its imbalanced.

Again, balance is something players can affect. Just because theres some glitch in physics that can be used. If its not known, then players dont use it making it pointless, and assuming the game was already balanced, it would continue to be balanced until that glitch is exploited.

As of right now, I think the game is pretty balanced. In the metagame. Well I dont know, because I'm not thinking outside the box enough to see if there is a revolutionary AT that we can all use.

 

[zzzzzzzzzz]

^

i think he meant play skill and character selection don't affect balance.

the way i see it, once every character has been played or we have information for ever character match-up, tier and balance discussions can be started. as i said before these discussions and not final and are subject to change after new discoveries. in many games i have seen new techniques being found right down to the end.

i may be bias on the topic of balance between the two games, because i liked melee play style alot more than brawl. i am happy to see crouch cancelling gone and i am happy to be able to grab the edge no matter what direction i am facing. but tripping i can do without and the whole user friendly feel to brawl i can do without. in brawl its alot harder to play offensively successfully as air dodge and the lack of shield stun/drop shield to any attack seem too favor defensive players, hell even tripping, as of now i see melee as being more versatile and more competitive than brawl.

 

[Lavos]

Balance is a matter of what is known currently. For example, there are stuff like wavedashing in melee that was discovered much later in the game. This changed the game and made certain characters a lot better than other characters when they used to be the same. Because of wavedashing, l canceling and various other ATs, it made certain characters top tier and others not so much. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It also seperated good players from bad players, a good player could beat a bad player with any character. The same still applies to brawl.

?

Since when was wavedashing was discovered late in the Melee metagame? People had it figured out and were using it within a year of the game's release. And it really didn't have a massive effect on the game's balance. The top tier characters would still be top tier without it. L canceling too. The biggest effects these ATs had were on low/mid tier characters. Ganon would be horrible without ATs, but Marth would still be fantastic.

I dont think its too early to discuss balance. But so far Yunas counter arguement was that it is, completely throwing off his own statement saying its imbalanced.

Again, balance is something players can affect. Just because theres some glitch in physics that can be used. If its not known, then players dont use it making it pointless, and assuming the game was already balanced, it would continue to be balanced until that glitch is exploited.

As of right now, I think the game is pretty balanced. In the metagame. Well I dont know, because I'm not thinking outside the box enough to see if there is a revolutionary AT that we can all use.

Here's where we differ. I see balance as what is in the game, regardless of whether a player knows it or not. You see it as what is known about the game at this point in time. Am I correct?

If this is true then the idea that Brawl is more balanced than Melee makes no sense at all because you've got a 7 year time gap in your logic! Why would you compare the fully developed Melee metagame balance to the initial Brawl balance. Initial Melee balance was pretty **** good! I'd say it was just as good as the tentative equilibrium we have right now in Brawl. But no one gauges Melee's balance on what it was like in the beginning, that's why people are saying it's too soon to tell. The two things being compared are completely disproportional to each other.

 

[Kilut]

In my mind, there are solid arguments on either side.
I am NOT an expert on melee, just to make that clear.
I just believe that while Brawl is balanced on the fact that more people can do better and can come out of nowhere, because Brawl is LESS technical than Melee. But the balancing in terms of characters is just.....bad. Snake= the gay baby of God and Chuck Norris (which is technically impossible, but go with me here) metaknight= the gay baby of Chuck Norris and somebody not as awesome as God but still pretty awesome and everyone else= not able to win.

And since probably some of this is untrue because it is very late for me, just tell me and I'll edit it.

 

[Yuna]

If you keep saying its too early to say anything why are you suggesting that brawl is so imba?

I've merely challenged people's notion of Brawl being so balanced to pointing out the flaws in the logic they use to come to this conclusion.

so therefor ppl are starting to learn how to play the game and its becoming more balanced as they do so....

The game does not become more balanced if people learn how to play with more characters. Game balance is something programmed into the game. Short of banning characters, stages and techniques, the game balance will stay the same no matter what.

People learning how to play with more than just 5 characters means just that: People learning how to play with more than just 5 characters.

I played marth. But your arguement is invalid thats like saying "Well DDD cant chaingrab falco". Point is they could easily get off 2 up airs or even 3 at times just by grabbing. Which normally followed up after a shine to jab.

I'm sorry, what part of my original post, which clearly said: "Works with a lot of characters, like Peach." and not "Works with all characters." was too Korean for you to grasp? The floatier characters can do this.

Okay so you're telling me that cort and pc chris won using snake. They are good players. I dont know who else entered the tournament but cort and PC coming up on top seems to be a predicted result.

Stuff

Wow, your tournament was not dominated by Snake! Must mean he's not that good! Oh, come on. What if there just weren't that many good Snake players there? Your logic can work in reverse as well.

Snake is just **** good if you take a look at his metagame.

I dont think its too early to discuss balance. But so far Yunas counter arguement was that it is, completely throwing off his own statement saying its imbalanced.

Try reading someone's posts once in a while. It's been months since I've clearly said "This game is imbalanced". All I'm doing nowadays is challenging people's claims.

Again, balance is something players can affect. Just because theres some glitch in physics that can be used. If its not known, then players dont use it making it pointless, and assuming the game was already balanced, it would continue to be balanced until that glitch is exploited.

Balance is not something players can affect. Balance is programmed into the game.

As of right now, I think the game is pretty balanced. In the metagame. Well I dont know, because I'm not thinking outside the box enough to see if there is a revolutionary AT that we can all use.

Or maybe you just don't know enough about the game if you can't see all the ways in which Snake can just outright own the majority of the characters in Brawl.

 

[sagemoon]

Yuna you're obviously trying to just troll ppl now. You're not as good as you claim to be, and I'm better than you give me credit for. Stop pretending that you know everything. I'm done posting here for it is pointless.

@lavos
A year is a long time. But yeah i get your point.