Brawl in the Cold - A Cold Con Tournament *RULE UPDATE*

[Solharath]

Rule/Stagelist change, as well as a tentative Mid-Tier tournament. Get Hype.

========================================================

Hey all, it's me again for another bit of West Michigan Smash. After my previous tournament, Smashing the Backstage, I've been brought on to set up and run the next West Michigan tournament at the Cold Con.

Cold Con has been running three or four years now and it's starting to pick up steam in the area. As such, the event has extended to two days and will be featuring up to three Smash tournaments; A Doubles tournament on Saturday Night, and the main Singles tournament starting Sunday Morning. There may be a third tournament, a Mid-Tier tournament, either After Singles or Before Doubles. Make sure to get in early, to either play or get a spot of warm-up in.

This is a big opportunity for the West Coast here and I'd love to see you guys come out and make it. We've scored the Conference Building here at the college, which is perfect for these kind of events. As far as setups go right now, it's a little murky but if you have 'em, bring 'em, but only a couple will actually net you a monetary break, and must be cleared with Nate of Backstage or myself before the event starts. Walking in with one will not net you any breaks.

Please pay special attention to the rules area - after Smashing the Backstage we had a long talk about how we we're going to start cultivating a gaming scene out here, and some sacrifices had to be made.

Location
West Shore Community College
Administration and Conference Building
3000 N. Stiles Rd.
Scottville, MI, 49454
Image 1
Image 2

Time
Doubles
Saturday, February 26th
Registration Starts at 10 AM
Tournament starts at 8 PM (After CoD: Black Ops tournament at 11 AM)
Free play will be in effect if available.

Singles
Sunday, February 27th
Registration starts at 10 AM
Tournament starts at 11 AM
Free play will probably not be looked into until after the tournament.

Cost
Venue Fee - $10
Tournament Fee - $10

Food 'n Drink
We're rather close to a Taco Bell and other fast food restaurants, it should only take 20 minutes there and back.
There will also be food available for purchase on location at Cold Con.

Rules

Ice Climbers chain-grab infinite is still banned - however, that can be overruled before a match upon the agreement of both players.

• Matches will be of a three stock, eight minute time limit variety.
• Double Elimination. All matches will be 2 out of 3, with all finals being 3 out of 5.
• The bracket will be seeded from pools, with the help of any MI TO's to make sure no mishaps happen like at StB.
• You may ban one stage during counterpicks.
• Life stealing is allowed in teams.
• You may not counterpick a stage that you won on.
• Any disputes over ports will be determined by either RPS or G&W Hammers(Finals will use Hammers).
• The Mage's DQ rule is also in effect:

1. 2 Minutes Late: Warning; repeat offense will result in a loss of first stock(or severity)
2. 4 Minutes Late: Loss of first match of set
3. 6 Minutes Late: Loss of set

• Do not fly under the stage repeatedly to avoid your opponent. Doing so three times in a row will result in a match loss due to stalling. To avoid this, land on the main area of the stage before attempting again.
• 45 LGL
• The stage strike system will be used to determine the first stage. Each player, starting with the higher seed or determined by the players with something like rock/paper/scissors, will strike one stage from the neutral list until only one is left, and that will be the stage played on for the first match.
• You are responsible for your own controller and name tag. Any malfunctions or errors that occur are your responsibility, so bring an extra controller if possible and always check to make sure you're using the correct settings BEFORE a match is played. If a match is to be restarted due to controller functions, it must be agreed upon by both parties.
• Any action that can prevent the game from continuing (i.e., freezing, disappearing characters, game reset, etc.) will result in a forfeit of that match for the player that initiated the action. You are responsible for knowing your own character, and must be wary about accidentally triggering one of these effects.

TENTATIVE RULES:

• DeDeDe's Infinites are banned.
• Marth's Infinites on Ness and Lucas are banned.
• I'd like to use the Advanced Slobs during Finals, and possibly as far back as Semi-Finals. As such, the first match is a blind pick of characters, where the competitors will tell their character to a judge(myself, Nate, and those appointed as such), and then proceed. The loser of the first match will then pick the next stage, then the winner may choose his character. After, the loser will choose his character and begin. The same will happen for the third match, if forced.

Housing
I should be able to house almost all the MI smashers who are coming, but remember to GET IN CONTACT WITH ME AT LEAST SEVEN DAYS PRIOR. This will allow me to look at any spacing issues, as well as prepare for housing X number of people. Remember - I have the room, but only one double bed, one air bed(double), and one air bed(single). Tentatively five people with bed sharing, but if you bring your own or don't mind the hard floor, be my guest.

HOWEVER, Cold Con is looking into getting Hotel discounts. These haven't seen fruition yet, but keep your eyes peeled.

Stages
Conforming to the National stagelist, Norfair and Luigi's Mansion are out from StB. Stage striking procedure is 1221 or on mutual agreement.

Furthermore, agreement on normally banned stages can be overruled on player agreement for counterpicks upon approval from a judge.


Starter
Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 1
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)


Counterpick
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Pictochat
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise​

But yeah. Mad Hype, we got a Cold Con tournament.

 

[Deleted member]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssssss

 

[Ori_bro]

Posting for future reference.
Also If I do go to this, I can try and get some housing again So post if you wanna come with me
NO ICE CLIMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this makes me sad , o well I'll just go Marth, Falco, Snake, DK, and Sonic

 

[Solharath]

Icies aren't banned, but the guys running it(Outvoting me 3-1) were going to outright ban them if I didn't put some sort of limitation on. What I'm doing here is basically going 'Um. No.' to the guys who are basically letting me use their space and resources, so don't be hatin'.

 

[DRDN]

what is cold con?

 

[Kaffei]

Banning ICs/MK LOOOOOOOOOL.

 

[Boxxy]

no way i'm going to spend 2+ hours in a car ride to go to a tourney being run by dumb people :D (not including you superTH).

 

[lordhelmet]

While what I think Roller and a few others did to the locals was slightly humorous, it was also the exact opposite of the impression we want to give about the competitive Brawl scene.

May or may not attend this :|

Going to an ICs/MK banned tourney and placing well won't make me look any better. Depends on ride situation and who is all going.

 

[Solharath]

I don't think I was entirely clear, but I am the one running it, with more say in it all than Nate or any of the guys who are actually hosting Cold Con, and will be picking the rules and such, it's just I had to conform to a couple of their rules to get the the tournament the thumbs up.

So just to be clear, the only thing that has a soft ban is abusing the Ice Climber's Chaingrab to take a free stock.

No one is actually banned.

So the only ******** thing that's going to happen is that people shouldn't IC infinite. And maybe Luigi's Mansion. Haaaaaaaaa.

EDIT: Cold Con is a gaming convention held out west here. It's got a large following among tabletop gamers but this is it's first foray into fighting games, as only shooters like Halo 3 and Call of Duty have been around before, to my knowledge. I didn't go last year, so I can't be sure.

S'far as I know the only Smash tournaments held this far west have been run by me.

 

[Kaffei]

If you don't want to lose to ICs play super safe aka "gay" and play smart.

How many ICs are winning nationals? How many ICs mains actually exist? How many ICs mains don't drop grabs? The timing for ICs chain grab is different for each character. ICs are really hard to master. To ban the chain grab for the few IC mains that work so hard is really unfair.

 

[Solharath]

You know what else is really unfair? Paying $10 to get into a tournament expecting to fight and spend the next two sets stuck in an infinite chaingrab combo because you don't even know a tactic like that existed in the game. And you didn't even think a place like this exists. And those who don't walk out of that completely salted from ever playing again are going to go home and train their chaingrabs against their friends. If no other high level players come around to beat their sorry faces in despite their 'awesome chaingrab skills', all they'll end up doing is ruining the game for their group of friends.

That's the local view as was told to me by one of the very salted guys from Smashing the Backstage, and the guy who is letting me run the tournament heard him and the other locals complaints(This does NOT include Robjoe, albeit HellFyre was initially very salty - but now he's training for the tournament). I didn't want to ban the IC's chaingrab, and I completely understand your point of view Kaffei and I somewhat agree with you. But I want this tournament to happen and I had to let them win something so I could keep the ICies and MK. I'm sorry something like this had to happen, but we don't want to harm the local players, and then come back and sever any interest.

Honestly, I don't care if AA/East Lansing and out of state guys chaingrab other East Lansing/AA and out of state, you guys are a high enough level that you know how to combat it. But the locals don't, and it's the local's money you'll be paying your trip with.

Really the rule is just in place so you humiliate the locals with your better skills in straight up combat instead of infinite chaingrabs and the like. I myself was never caught in an IC infinite(never played Lain in friendlies, ha), but I've seen it done and know to avoid it like the plague.

 

[Sumer]

Timing out IC is fun. :3 But yeah, the good people can just agree before hand to play like normal, unless you play some random local that you can beat with a secondary. lol No big deal. This is a while from now, but I might come. o.e

 

[DRDN]

Ill see if i can get Van to drive to this so I can go

 

[Solharath]

It'd be great to Brawl with ya again DRDN, hope you can make it.

 

[DRDN]

my rides pretty much always depend on Van and Ill want to mario ditto you because yours was better then mine at youmacon

 

[Tewx2]

You know what else is really unfair? Paying $10 to get into a tournament expecting to fight and spend the next two sets stuck in an infinite chaingrab combo because you don't even know a tactic like that existed in the game. And you didn't even think a place like this exists.

There's nothing "unfair" about a player who took the time to learn a technique and then took the time learning how to apply it. I hate ICs with a passion, but even I wouldn't go so far as to call them unfair. If you don't know a tactic exists in a game, it's your own fault.

And those who don't walk out of that completely salted from ever playing again are going to go home and train their chaingrabs against their friends. If no other high level players come around to beat their sorry faces in despite their 'awesome chaingrab skills', all they'll end up doing is ruining the game for their group of friends.

IC's have been able to chaingrab since 2008. There has not been a drastic increase of ICs mains. In fact IC's are most likely the least represented top/high tier character in the current metagame. So 1. there's no evidence to your claim, and 2. Suppose it was true, all that does is promote competition. Banning a technique is doing the locals more harm than good, it's allowing them to be content with being horrible at this game.

That's the local view as was told to me by one of the very salted guys from Smashing the Backstage, and the guy who is letting me run the tournament heard him and the other locals complaints(This does NOT include Robjoe, albeit HellFyre was initially very salty - but now he's training for the tournament).

Robjoe and HellFyre are your only local's with competitive spirit. I applaud them.

I didn't want to ban the IC's chaingrab, and I completely understand your point of view Kaffei and I somewhat agree with you. But I want this tournament to happen and I had to let them win something so I could keep the ICies and MK. I'm sorry something like this had to happen, but we don't want to harm the local players, and then come back and sever any interest.

The job of a T.O and the purpose of a tournament are not to baby the community. It's our responsibility to provide a competitive environment where players are able to compete under a competitive rule set and grow as competitive players.

Honestly, I don't care if AA/East Lansing and out of state guys chaingrab other East Lansing/AA and out of state, you guys are a high enough level that you know how to combat it. But the locals don't, and it's the local's money you'll be paying your trip with.

I'll refrase this for you: "Honestly I don't care if my local community grows in ability, they aren't ready for a high level of play and I'll continue to keep exposure to high levels of play to a minimum to avoid them feeling bad about themselves. Meanwhile I'll let the rest of MI continue getting better so that when the time comes my local community won't stand a chance. But it's okay because the locals will be happier this way."

Really the rule is just in place so you humiliate the locals with your better skills in straight up combat instead of infinite chaingrabs and the like. I myself was never caught in an IC infinite(never played Lain in friendlies, ha), but I've seen it done and know to avoid it like the plague.

There are two types of skill in video gaming. Technical skill and skill in mindgames.(positive theres an actual word for this, but I don't know it off the top of my head). Chaingrabs, infinites, combo's, wavedashing, L_Canceling, Auto Canceling, and the like are the former. The latter revolves around using your technical skill in the most efficient way possible in order to win the game. It also includes knowing which technical skills your opponent may or may not have and then putting them in situations where they are unable to utilize their technical ability(i.e you can't get chain grabbed if you don't get grabbed) or use their technical ability against them (i.e IC's mains have a bad habit of telegraphing their grabs) and then punish accordingly.

My overall point is that you're babying your community and preventing them from growing.

Also idc that the venue isn't allowing you to run chaingrabs, because it seems you yourself(unless someone else posted on your account) find chaingrabs to be "unfair." Because unless your venue host is an irrational person, it shouldn't be hard to convince him not to ban ICs. And if that's the case, find another venue (Which I suggest you do anyway since you have such a small area anyway.)

 

[Roller]

Woooooooooow. I feel like this is my fault. =/

I mean, I obviously agree with Kaffei. There is a reason that nowhere else even thinks about banning ICs. Ignorant players should not be able to change the rules to suit them. That is complete crap. The player who has spent time researching the game and PRACTICED THE CHAINGRABS FOR HOURS AND HOURS. SHOULD be the one with the advantage. Why should people who put no effort in be able to adjust the rules to suit them? I don't get it. And my problem isn't even about the locals not being able to be cg'd. But if I can't do it to other players who know what they're doing... WTF? Why not?

If I were to go to this for some reason anyway you can be 100% sure I am going to gay the **** out of every single one of the locals with pikachu over and over. I will chaingrab them to hell and back with pika (pika can 0-death a ton of chars, especially if they can't DI well.) and run away the entire game from those few that pika can't cg. I guarantee you they wont have fun. Because I wont have fun with these rules.

EDIT: Tutu with the **** post.

Actually, could you show the shop owner these posts? And tell us his thoughts on them. I would be open to having a civil debate with him.

 

[DRDN]

If banning ICs CHAINGRABS is a way to grow the community that sounds good to me yes its not showing them the whole competitive scene at once it eases them into it its also BORING to watch ICs matches thats only fun when they lose.

If we get 2-4 people intrested in playing brawl after this tourney it was worth it they can later go to tourneys with full rules and see that they have to step up their game but noone wants to start out with facing 2 ics in a row and leaving thinking thats all there is

 

[DRDN]

Woooooooooow. I feel like this is my fault. =/

I mean, I obviously agree with Kaffei. There is a reason that nowhere else even thinks about banning ICs. Ignorant players should not be able to change the rules to suit them. That is complete crap. The player who has spent time researching the game and PRACTICED THE CHAINGRABS FOR HOURS AND HOURS. SHOULD be the one with the advantage. Why should people who put no effort in be able to adjust the rules to suit them? I don't get it. And my problem isn't even about the locals not being able to be cg'd. But if I can't do it to other players who know what they're doing... WTF? Why not?

If I were to go to this for some reason anyway you can be 100% sure I am going to gay the **** out of every single one of the locals with pikachu over and over. I will chaingrab them to hell and back with pika (pika can 0-death a ton of chars, especially if they can't DI well.) and run away the entire game from those few that pika can't cg. I guarantee you they wont have fun. Because I wont have fun with these rules.

EDIT: Tutu with the **** post.

Actually, could you show the shop owner these posts? And tell us his thoughts on them. I would be open to having a civil debate with him.

This is the OPPOSITE of trying to grow the community. The point is to reach out to those who arent fully intrested in the game and spark some interest and draw them in what your doing is saying that if you cant play the way you want your going to try and turn everyone away pushing away any potential that could come from this

 

[Tewx2]

If banning ICs CHAINGRABS is a way to grow the community that sounds good to me yes its not showing them the whole competitive scene at once it eases them into it its also BORING to watch ICs matches thats only fun when they lose.
If we get 2-4 people intrested in playing brawl after this tourney it was worth it they can later go to tourneys with full rules and see that they have to step up their game but noone wants to start out with facing 2 ics in a row and leaving thinking thats all there is

I struck out the part that's not an argument. And once again banning any technique is detrimental to growth. "easing into it" provides the same outcome as allowing cg's from the start, only the people who have been eased into it aren't prepared and thus more likely to stick to their "ease" tournies, and two it allows people to perpetually say "oh we'll do it next time" or "I don't think the community is ready for this yet." And if they are going to come to the realization that they have to step it up anyway all you're doing is wasting their time be allowing them to take the "easy" way around the competitive scene.

This is the OPPOSITE of trying to grow the community. The point is to reach out to those who arent fully intrested in the game and spark some interest and draw them in what your doing is saying that if you cant play the way you want your going to try and turn everyone away pushing away any potential that could come from this

First off, I'll say this right now. I would love to ban ICs chaingrabs,and ICs, and MK too. I hate those ****ers soo **** much that im getting mad even thinking about them. But to do so is UNCOMPETITIVE. The point of tournaments is to grow a competitive scene not a whiny "we don't like being forced to improve in the face of new techniques" scene. We don't need players like that, I'll take 1 truly competitive player over 10 whiny scrubs that have no desire to improve any day. It's better for the scene as a whole, to get quality players over pot monsters.

I would like to say however that I forgot a key part in the roles of the experienced players. We have to take our time and help those that are getting into the game, I did a little of this at Ludington, but not very much, and not near enough for it to really matter. Nobody here just got good without the help of somebody in the smash community, and while most of us are really focused on our own improvement and want to take the time to play really good players so that we improve we have to remember that the players worse than us need our help as well.

 

[Solharath]

There's nothing "unfair" about a player who took the time to learn a technique and then took the time learning how to apply it. I hate ICs with a passion, but even I wouldn't go so far as to call them unfair. If you don't know a tactic exists in a game, it's your own fault.

IC's have been able to chaingrab since 2008. There has not been a drastic increase of ICs mains. In fact IC's are most likely the least represented top/high tier character in the current metagame. So 1. there's no evidence to your claim, and 2. Suppose it was true, all that does is promote competition. Banning a technique is doing the locals more harm than good, it's allowing them to be content with being horrible at this game.

You're literally missing the point here. Number one: not my words, but merely a paraphrase. They're words were a bit more angry. However it's easy to take your stand Tutu, you've been at this for years. You found the community and started playing in an area where it was easier to grow in. The same can't be said here. They don't know any of these moves and outside of one person who found me on this website (who quickly gave the hell up) in my area.

But again, these aren't my feelings on the matter.

Robjoe and HellFyre are your only local's with competitive spirit. I applaud them.

As do I.

The job of a T.O and the purpose of a tournament are not to baby the community. It's our responsibility to provide a competitive environment where players are able to compete under a competitive rule set and grow as competitive players.

That's very nice of you to explain something I already know, but you're talking to the wrong person - you know, the guy who set out to keep ICies and MK from being banned. What you're entire post has missed is that you're talking to me like - well -

I'll refrase this for you: "Honestly I don't care if my local community grows in ability,

I'll admit this pissed me off, and I'd rather like if you decided to take my views into actual consideration instead of debasing who I am as a person.

they aren't ready for a high level of play

You're quite right.

and I'll continue to keep exposure to high levels of play to a minimum to avoid them feeling bad about themselves.

This... is actually a little bit true, yes. However, it's something that came into being simply because I had to adopt that stance to give a little to make sure all wasn't lost. This is a big opportunity for the West Coast of Michigan and I don't want to keep players from being shafted from a good game because they couldn't move.

Further tournaments after the fact will, after this tournament, hopefully drop this stupid stipulation and go back to the ruleset used before.

Meanwhile I'll let the rest of MI continue getting better so that when the time comes my local community won't stand a chance. But it's okay because the locals will be happier this way."

Useless filler to debase my stance and generally piss me off, because you honestly couldn't expect me to look at that and have some eureka moment. "Surely this man speaks the word of truth!" Now I'm doing it. Gorramit Tutu, I don't want to fight.

There are two types of skill in video gaming. Technical skill and skill in mindgames.(positive theres an actual word for this, but I don't know it off the top of my head). Chaingrabs, infinites, combo's, wavedashing, L_Canceling, Auto Canceling, and the like are the former. The latter revolves around using your technical skill in the most efficient way possible in order to win the game. It also includes knowing which technical skills your opponent may or may not have and then putting them in situations where they are unable to utilize their technical ability(i.e you can't get chain grabbed if you don't get grabbed) or use their technical ability against them (i.e IC's mains have a bad habit of telegraphing their grabs) and then punish accordingly.

Man, I know this stuff already.

My overall point is that you're babying your community and preventing them from growing.

And you couldn't of just said this...?

Also idc that the venue isn't allowing you to run chaingrabs, because it seems you yourself(unless someone else posted on your account) find chaingrabs to be "unfair." Because unless your venue host is an irrational person, it shouldn't be hard to convince him not to ban ICs. And if that's the case, find another venue (Which I suggest you do anyway since you have such a small area anyway.)

I have been in full control of my account thus far(Although when logging into Smash Boards from Robjoe's computer, we found we were logged into Ori's account - this should be fixed so don't worry man). I find chaingrabs to be annoying as hell, but viable.

And the venue host isn't so much irrational as he doesn't want the locals to piss off this time around, and he DOES LISTEN TO WHAT YOU GUYS SAY. This post has been here less than 12 hours and it's gotten an explosion of feedback that, surely, will at least bring the chaingrab back up for discussion.

But all they, and I guess me too, am asking is that instead of going out of your way to basically insult our competence, you instead try to guide, using logical arguments that aren't laced with negative feedback, to get the rules sorted out.

Also, Roller, your post made me laugh despite everything, even if you didn't mean for me to.

Anyway, I'll relate your actual points to the venue hosts and work on getting the rules changed(which do mention that everything is not set in stone yet). I don't want anyone getting pissed and creating animosity - which I suppose is ironic.

 

[DRDN]

I would like to say however that I forgot a key part in the roles of the experienced players. We have to take our time and help those that are getting into the game, I did a little of this at Ludington, but not very much, and not near enough for it to really matter. Nobody here just got good without the help of somebody in the smash community, and while most of us are really focused on our own improvement and want to take the time to play really good players so that we improve we have to remember that the players worse than us need our help as well.

This is why i made my second post entirely I want MI Smash to Grow and apperantly you guys scared everyone away at Ludington

 

[Solharath]

This is why i made my second post entirely I want MI Smash to Grow and apperantly you guys scared everyone away at Ludington

They scared three dudes off in Doubles and in between tournaments, yes, but to be fair turnout was opposite what was expected and those who did stay were, thus far, highly regarded for sticking it out.

Although one of the locals mucked things up with his big mouth, but that's neither here nor there. Some didn't go simply due to work/sleep johns.

Although in my rebuttul I missed a number of posts, I will say that one of Tutu's later posts was well thought out and he is a scholar. But seriously,

I would like to say however that I forgot a key part in the roles of the experienced players. We have to take our time and help those that are getting into the game, I did a little of this at Ludington, but not very much, and not near enough for it to really matter. Nobody here just got good without the help of somebody in the smash community, and while most of us are really focused on our own improvement and want to take the time to play really good players so that we improve we have to remember that the players worse than us need our help as well.

This is smart and should be quoted constantly.

 

[Roller]

Also, Roller, your post made me laugh despite everything, even if you didn't mean for me to.

Don't get me wrong, there was an element of lulzy trolling in there, but I will actually troll with pika irl to the point where the owners want to ban pika as well.

I just brought this up with Lain though, he thinks it's funny and if he goes he plans to get meta knight banned at the next tournament. looool

 

[DRDN]

I just brought this up with Lain though, he thinks it's funny and if he goes he plans to get meta knight banned at the next tournament. looool

Why Lains ICs arent banned he always drops the grabs around 30%

 

[Kaffei]

You know what else is really unfair? Paying $10 to get into a tournament expecting to fight and spend the next two sets stuck in an infinite chaingrab combo because you don't even know a tactic like that existed in the game. And you didn't even think a place like this exists. And those who don't walk out of that completely salted from ever playing again are going to go home and train their chaingrabs against their friends. If no other high level players come around to beat their sorry faces in despite their 'awesome chaingrab skills', all they'll end up doing is ruining the game for their group of friends.

That's the local view as was told to me by one of the very salted guys from Smashing the Backstage, and the guy who is letting me run the tournament heard him and the other locals complaints(This does NOT include Robjoe, albeit HellFyre was initially very salty - but now he's training for the tournament). I didn't want to ban the IC's chaingrab, and I completely understand your point of view Kaffei and I somewhat agree with you. But I want this tournament to happen and I had to let them win something so I could keep the ICies and MK. I'm sorry something like this had to happen, but we don't want to harm the local players, and then come back and sever any interest.

Honestly, I don't care if AA/East Lansing and out of state guys chaingrab other East Lansing/AA and out of state, you guys are a high enough level that you know how to combat it. But the locals don't, and it's the local's money you'll be paying your trip with.

Really the rule is just in place so you humiliate the locals with your better skills in straight up combat instead of infinite chaingrabs and the like. I myself was never caught in an IC infinite(never played Lain in friendlies, ha), but I've seen it done and know to avoid it like the plague.

You know what else is unfair? Paying $20 for a tournament, then having to fight ADHD round one, then a power ranked player round 2 at my first tournament.

If these locals enter a TOURNAMENT, aka COMPETITION they shouldn't expect to win walking in not knowing anything about the game. Then there is always the argument that tournaments should be fun. Well you know what, it was not fun placing dead last after paying $20 then barely getting in any friendlies. Did that stop me? No. I wanted to improve and be a part of the competition. If those locals are salty, let them be. People who don't ***** about things and have some incentive will actually enter your tournament and continue to enter more tournaments.

I didn't go home and cry after the best Diddy Kong ***** me then pick up Diddy Kong. I continued to work with my character, I studied what he can do, and I kept practicing my technical skill. If people are motivated to even enter a tournament ONCE, then they shouldn't expect everything to go smoothly.

If you want to cater to scrubby baby *****es, be my guest.

 

[Tewx2]

You're literally missing the point here. Number one: not my words, but merely a paraphrase. They're words were a bit more angry. However it's easy to take your stand Tutu, you've been at this for years. You found the community and started playing in an area where it was easier to grow in. The same can't be said here. They don't know any of these moves and outside of one person who found me on this website (who quickly gave the hell up) in my area.

My first offline tournament was in Spring. My growth as a player is almost entirely all wifi, though I had one offline friend who I played a bunch with, I started seriously playing offline around the time he quit. But even since I started playing offline, and live in an area where smash happens often.(although until roller moved back to MI for college smashfests happened rarely, like one every two weeks or so.) I'm telling you this, because these are the times that I improved as a player. I actually went to Apex(New Jersey), MLG Colombus(Ohio), Don't Blink 5(Chicago) over the summer, these aren't area's that are nearby like you're implying. But hell area doesn't even matter. L_Cancel, SpartaKick, and Flame are 3of the best player's in the state and they live nowhere near active smash scenes, they put in the time on wifi and in the training room to improve. Same can be said of Notra, who is now inactive but during the time he played he was tied for 4th place on the PR with L_Cancel and Coco, and he pretty much only played other people at tournies, because for the most part he was practicing tech skill in the training room and theory crafting ways to use it.

And unless the majority of your locals don't have access to a computer, there's no reason for them not to be able to find this website, because you know of it's existence. I'll admit this site is daunting for newcomer's to join. But if you start out in just the social boards, and the character boards you'll find plenty of people who are willing to help you provided you have a good attitude.

But again, these aren't my feelings on the matter.

I apologize, however from the way you posted, it sounded much like you were voicing your own opinion when I read it. My harsh tone likewise was not meant to be directed at you, rather the argument's themselves.

That's very nice of you to explain something I already know, but you're talking to the wrong person - you know, the guy who set out to keep ICies and MK from being banned. What you're entire post has missed is that you're talking to me like - well -

I posted it because once again from the tone of your posts on the issue it sounded, at least to me, that you didn't know, or perhaps that you simply didn't understand the difference between fairness and competitiveness. And even if you do, it's apparent your community doesn't.

I'll admit this pissed me off, and I'd rather like if you decided to take my views into actual consideration instead of debasing who I am as a person.

That's the attitude that I feel like you were taking, and if I misjudged you I'm sorry. However I don't believe I'm in the wrong about this. But I also believe that you missed my point, I was posting what I believed you to be saying when I read that part of your post.

You're quite right.

This is in regards to the line that I read as you saying "they aren't ready for competitive play"

As a T.O are you really saying that your community isn't ready to play the game competitively? I know they aren't ready to place well in a competitive setting, but just playing competitively? All that's needed to do that is a mature mindset. If your community is too immature to handle a game at a competitive level then disregard all my posts and read them when your community is ready for competitive play. But I for one believe that any community is ready to play a competitive game.

This... is actually a little bit true, yes. However, it's something that came into being simply because I had to adopt that stance to give a little to make sure all wasn't lost. This is a big opportunity for the West Coast of Michigan and I don't want to keep players from being shafted from a good game because they couldn't move.

Once again I'll say that Catering to bad players rules that allow them to be bad promotes their perpetual badness at this game. And while I understand that you are doing what you can to make sure you are able to run a tournament, I also feel like you are passively agreeing with the notion of IC's chaingrab being banned. Btw by saying"because they couldn't move" do you mean like because they live in west Michigan, or because they are getting cg'd? Either way I've covered both of those points.

Further tournaments after the fact will, after this tournament, hopefully drop this stupid stipulation and go back to the ruleset used before.

Hopefully? You're the T.O it's your ruleset, it's not "I hope that I get to use the rule set of my choosing" it's "These are the rules I believe create the best environment for competitive play, and either we'll use them, or we won't have a tournament" although you should always be open to rational arguments about any select rule that you choose to enforce or not enforce.

Useless filler to debase my stance and generally piss me off, because you honestly couldn't expect me to look at that and have some eureka moment. "Surely this man speaks the word of truth!" Now I'm doing it. Gorramit Tutu, I don't want to fight.

I'm trying to point out how you actually aren't helping the local's by conceding to a rule set that allows them to not improve. It's not useless filler, once again I'm pointing out what I believe to be your attitude about your community, and the consequences that I believe your beliefs will have.

Man, I know this stuff already.

1. I don't belive you know this stuff as well as you think you do, or at the very least you don't understand it as well as you think you do.
2. Your community doesn't understand these things, and what good does it do your community if you know these things, but don't tell them?

And you couldn't of just said this...?

If I had made a post saying you were babying your community you would have asked me how or disregarded my post and I would have had to go through and make this long post anyway.

I have been in full control of my account thus far(Although when logging into Smash Boards from Robjoe's computer, we found we were logged into Ori's account - this should be fixed so don't worry man). I find chaingrabs to be annoying as hell, but viable.

My point was more that, your voice varies between that of your opinion and that of the store owner's. And you don't make it clear when you are presenting which side, which made me think that perhaps the store owner was posting for parts of your post.

And the venue host isn't so much irrational as he doesn't want the locals to piss off this time around, and he DOES LISTEN TO WHAT YOU GUYS SAY. This post has been here less than 12 hours and it's gotten an explosion of feedback that, surely, will at least bring the chaingrab back up for discussion.

I'm not saying he's irrational, I'm saying unless he's irrational he'll change his mind when presented with solid evidence that what he's doing is detrimental to his own goal.

But all they, and I guess me too, am asking is that instead of going out of your way to basically insult our competence, you instead try to guide, using logical arguments that aren't laced with negative feedback, to get the rules sorted out.

I'm not insulting your competence, in fact I'm really holding back from doing so. A lot of your posts and arguments I have found to be highly irrational and I have gone about telling you why instead of merely posting "this post is dumb" because that's childish and detrimental to the flow of the conversation. Only it seems you are choosing not to listen, which is neither my problem nor my fault.

Anyway, I'll relate your actual points to the venue hosts and work on getting the rules changed(which do mention that everything is not set in stone yet). I don't want anyone getting pissed and creating animosity - which I suppose is ironic.

It would be much more efficient and relieving if he were to make an account himself. I don't believe that you understand my arguments well enough to fully make a case for them. Mostly because the way I say things comes off worse than I mean it too.

 

[lordhelmet]

The difference between us and the locals is, they're trying to have fun, we're trying to win money.

I see both sides, but I honestly have to side with Miles on this one. All he's trying to do is get a scene established (which we all should be thanking him for). Yes, the CG rule is scrubby. I'm sure we can improvise and agree to allow CGs when the "competetive" players are playing.

It's not like you have to CG the locals to win. Hell, go Ganon on them for all I care. Let them have some fun. Guess what happened after doubles. They all left. Why? They weren't having fun. How does this effect us? Smaller pot.

 

[Kaffei]

If you're so worried about having a smaller pot, go a tournament that doesn't have so many locals.
In addition, as I already stated, this is a tournament. People honestly cannot expect to have fun every single match.

 

[Solharath]

Tutu, let me put it this way, because while you claim I'm not understanding your posts, you are also misunderstanding my own - most of the points you are arguing and defending are coming across as egotistical, despite you not meaning to. This is highly likely due to being unable to understand the what words are stressed and what connotations you have with your words, so let me just go over why I'm being passive about this tournament.

1. It's a large gathering of dedicated gamers - not a large gathering of dedicated smashers. Those who are going to be interested in testing their mettle are going to enter on the sheer basis of how they've fared against their friends. Thusly, it's easier to get them hooked through beating them in a battle than showing them your complicated chaingrab that doesn't allow them to move.

I respect the time it takes to perfect them, I really do. I've seen enough videos to see the alterations the IC's have against different characters for their CG. But these guys are going to want to have a fight.

2. I'm already amassing some Smashers, HellFyre and Robjoe included, to go to this and Nate with Backstage seems generally impressed and will be open to hosting future Brawl tournaments with the ruleset used for Smashing the Backstage. However, Neither Nate nor I are the hosts of Cold Con and are merely invited to run the tournament there. Therefore, we're using this more as an opportunity to gather interest of people who are either on the edge about going to tournaments, seeing as we're looking at a passable turnout, and those who have yet to hear about the tournaments in our area.

A lot of people around here obviously don't go on Smash Boards, and a lot of people around here don't listen to the radio, or at least it's commercials.

I had more points but between checking for new posts and taking out the garbage, I lost a lot the fire behind making my post. The reason I didn't systematically argue against your post is due to sheer laziness, as quote warring is tedious and I tend to get lost. But I will pick one thing out:

You keep saying my community, whereas this is our attempt to establish a community. Right now, my community is Robjoe, his little brother, HellFyre and his friend Brett, and a guy named Chaz who just likes playing Brawl, and I'm the only one to have played any of them outside of their sparring partner. We're trying to cultivate a scene so I know peoples names and can call them up to play Smash - and Cold Con is how I'm going to do that more effectively than Smashing the Backstage. StB let me get to know HellFyre a bit more and start setting up times to fight, but I didn't get to establish any clear links with any of the others because they left while I was busy working on getting the next tournament ready to start. Some of them didn't even stick around to hear the results, if you noticed.

Thing is, I'm going to waive the rule as soon as the quarterfinals hit, if not sooner. By that point I'd expect most of the unskilled locals will have been weeded out, and the competitive locals will get a taste of the techniques you guys have practiced while the others will watch.

And that is assuming I don't get the rule dropped in the first place. Because remember, I don't like the rule.

 

[DRDN]

I see you guys complaining about ICs CG being banned but in almost EVERY tournament isnt D3s standing CG banned?

EDIT: This is also a CON Tourney which as I am to understand is held as a lower tourney in terms of skill. At Youmacon wasnt there less then 10 people from this board involved in the smash tourney

 

[Kaffei]

1) DDD's standing CG grab is 99999x easier to do.
2) DDD's standing CG grab only applies to a FEW characters. You know what this means? Pick up a secondary, and you can escape being stand CGed.

 

[Sumer]

I just noticed the $10 venue fee. <.< Kinda lame. I personally hate venue fees, which is why I didn't have one when I hosted my tourney. Hoping this gets waived if you bring a full set up. Also, $10 entry fee is for singles and doubles?

 

[DRDN]

) DDD's standing CG grab only applies to a FEW characters. You know what this means? Pick up a secondary, and you can escape being stand CGed.

Thats a good reason the standing grab shouldn't be banned...

 

[Roller]

All I'm going to say, is make sure you choose your exact wording for the rule carefully, because I can (and will) do plenty of tricks that result in death without them being able to get out, that don't technically meet the criteria of "infinite chaingrab."

In fact, with your current wording, I can still 0-death everyone. lol

 

[Sumer]

Well, it says end your cg before 30%, so just grab them for 30% three times, do like 30% in between with ice block/blizzard/other attacks, and kill with the third grab. It's just 3 grabs = a life now instead of 1 grab = a life. lol

 

[Roller]

Nah, there are plenty of ways to kill them in one go without an "infinite chaingrab." One grab still = 1 stock.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't understand why all of you are getting so huffy over this. It's not like you can't beat these locals without the CG and he said that you can use them against the better players.

And about MK...

 

[Roller]

Nice picture, how'd you get Y.b.M. to pose like that for you?

 

[Backstage_Nate]

Alright, figured I'd weigh in here as Miles is getting a lot of unnecessary heat over what amounts to a call by me. I'm Nate, owner of Backstage and the apparent event coordinator for ColdCon.

Here's the thing: for those of you who have been to the shop, you've seen that we are, primarily a tabletop/card game environments. Adding competitive video game play is something new and experimental. We're trying to build the interest and build the community to host bigger events and do more with more titles. Smash was selected as an early title because its generally less intimidating than the military FPS titles and more all-ages appropriate.

As many of you won't know, I AM well versed in the building of a gaming community. On opening, Magic: The Gathering, my primary product line, was all but dead. YuGiOh and a minis game dominated the local tabletop scene and the few Magic players were relatively weak in terms of skill and most any metric that you could mention. In three and a half years, we have built a strong, competitive, but fun and casual, scene. Thanks to said skill and growth of the base Backstage is one of Wizards' top-tier stores for events. As of a month ago, the week of our Smash event in October even, one of our younger players placed second at the state level against nationally ranked, and feared, players.

My take on community building is this: you need to organize play and encourage people to come and play, it just won't happen on its own, and you do need to include experienced players to help bring up the skill level as a whole. Doing so allows new players to see what could be, and learn from their mistakes and the skill of the opponent. You CANNOT do that if the rest of the players are being stomped into the ground without the opportunity to interact. Events need to be inclusive and yes, shock of shocks from my read of earlier posts, fun for as many of the people as possible. Allow as few things as possible to alienate or exclude players. And sometimes that does require the pruning of the game. In Magic, for example, there are several different formats that include banned and restricted cards. Some are expensive and difficult to obtain, and therefore their banning/restriction makes the game cheaper. Some are just plain broken but easily obtained. There are formats that loosen these so that people with the cards, or the desire to play against those builds, can play, and there are formats where the trouble cards are banned or restricted to allow others to have a shot. "Standard", for example, allows only the newest cards. This format is designed for the newer players who just pick up a deck in the shop and want to try their hand at competition. It is a highly competitive format and does draw older and experienced players and at the same time puts them all on relatively even footing by giving them all the same options. This is true across the board for many of the published titles, and cards are often banned or restricted by the publisher themselves with the express intent of keeping the game playable and enjoyable for everyone.

There is absolutely no reason a competition cannot be fun. Will you have fun every round? No, you'll have bad rounds, happens in every game . I have on numerous occasions had to ask players to buck up or step out for expecting that and getting upset when that was not the case. It IS a competition and there will be a winner and there will be a loser, that is unavoidable. But a competition should be about competing and learning and no learning occurs when someone can lock a player out of the game. That's a lot of the reason particular cards in Magic are banned, for example, because its not any fun and you learn nothing when you sit down to play just to lose while starting at the opponent and unable to do anything. And, while it might sound like "tough love" to many of you, much of what I read above comes off as elitist arrogance and in any environment that is sure to scare off potential players.

I personally want a fun event. I want a good competition. I want as many people to get involved as possible. This may mean restricting some options to even out the field; a good player in any game is a good player period and can work within restrictions, I do it and see it all the time in so many other games. If this puts you off the event, I'm sorry to hear. At the same time, pruning the options as such is done to make game more playable at a lower tier. If you want to compete at a higher skill level then this event is automatically not for you, the opposing skill level just isn't there yet; showing up and knowing its a weak community and intending to win through tricks and exploits just smacks of being a bully, cleaning up at a weak con to take the pot. If you want to show up, have fun, and help a budding community find its legs and grow into an actually competitive environment then I welcome you to join us.

As to other remarks about the venue fee, Miles put up a guess; I personally don't recall what it is, its either $5 or $10 and $10 was posted such that if we're wrong its a better break than first thought. That venue fee helps pay for advertising to draw people in, fees associated with hosting the event, and helps ensure that it can be done without the host going broke. Its either a venue fee or a smaller pot, especially for a smaller show in a smaller area.