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Brawl Has to be Competitve.

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Hey everybody.
I was just at a tournament, with some good people like Zhu and Hydro Kirby, and I spoke to Zhu about Brawl. Like him, there are a lot of people who don't really like it, due to it's "Slow." Nature. A lot of people are anticipating retiring due to the fact that maybe they can't be as technical as they would like to be. Well... I was about ready to retire from the competitive scene too, [Pfft, Like I'm good or anything. XD], But then some ideas dawned on me. I'ld like to share them with you guys. :]

The Problem at Hand.
I'm pretty sure that the biggest problem among players, is the fact that the engine of Brawl has been all changed up. Nothing is the same, and the characters seem to be a bit slower, I also believe that is how this game got the title for being a completely different game. Many people think that this game will not be pushed to any limit, if it even has one like Melee and SSB did. In addition, many people are shocked at how a little change, like taking out wavedashing, has "Shattered" Their careers as players. Furthermore, people think that Combos are only done automatically, there are no creative combos like a good ol' Ken combo anymore. The base statement, "We just can't push this game to the limits as we did Melee."


The contradictions.
Well, I've been doing a lot of research, a lot of interviewing, and a lot of Video watching, and it got my brain thinking. Here is the first point I'd like to make.

Push it to the Limit.
The fact of the matter is, SSB was pushed to it's limit, Melee was pushed to a same, if not even greater limit, and Brawl will be no different. When we first took a look at Melee, I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Smash community felt it as more of a party game, as it was intended to be. However, things changed, when Wavedashing was figured out. Now, I don't have dates, but I can tell you that Smash entered the competitive scene early of 2004. Ever since then, people have been ripping melee apart to find every glitch, every trick, everything that we know now as Advanced Techniques, until there wasn't much more to find. Then we decided that we needed to create Metagames for each character, as to push each character to their limits. I submit to you, why can we not push Brawl to it's Limit?

The common mindset.
There has been too much Negative rep, way to much. Many people indict that Brawl is "Never going to be that of what Melee is now." And with that statement, there has been assumptions floating around, everywhere. People have been taking that statement, the extra mile. Like a rumor, it has been spread, and manipulated, into "Brawl is not going to be competitive, and it is going to suck." Why do we assume that? Because we have Scrubs, like the ones on Game Faq's posting bad reviews to get attention, and we have people who are just trying to bash the hype in their minds to get over their undying anticipation.

A competitive Gamers Subconscious mission
When SSB came out, people subtly pushed it to the limit, however, when Melee arrived, nobody was near the Limit for SSB. It took the will of Isai to really push it to the limit, after Melee was already on the scene. Hype died out for SSB, and attention pulled to SSBM. Players began to install fear in hearts of others by showing them their skill of wavedashing, SHFFLing, Etc. It was so big, that noobs around the globe began to practice, and practice and practice. There must be over 100,000 People who know about this games methods, whether or not they can perform it, is a different subject in it self. Now, Lets remind ourselves, Smash came out December of 01. It took us virtually 3 years to get it out on the competitive scene. We've had such an exponential growth of people who know about the Advanced techniques in this game, that I have no doubt in my mind, that Brawl will be Pushed to SOME limit in less than a Year. You and I both know, reader, that you are going to unpack this game, and SHFFL, that is the first thing you are going to do, or maybe some cute little Double Fairs, or maybe some Pillaring if that is possible. Already, you are going to rip this game apart. It is that gull that is going to be the underlying factor in pushing this game to the limit. Maybe one day, little Jimmy will accidentally cancel an Auto smash combo, and them BOOM, Advanced technique number one, Smash canceling. That is an example, but you get what I mean. People are going to be all over this game, like nothing.

My inspiration.
As I was chatting on Gaiaonline.com, An angel sent me some videos of Marth playing multiple characters. At first I was skeptical in watching. Inside, I was thinking, "Well, it does not matter, Melee is better and blah blah blah." But then I actually took a closer look.
See if you can point it out, before I even tell you,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5142fHYDdBc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPO02OOtMFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60WWR1by7Qo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX7h....com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=5137&p=94836

I want to bring special attention to the first one. Hehe.
Now, I never expected this game to move that quickly. Marth clearly shows how he can move just as fast as he did in Melee. It's with that point alone that I submit the following. Is it not possible for all characters to do the same? Pikachu in that video sucked, but the base idea of what I'm getting at isn't reflected in the skill of the Pikachu. Those Double Fairs, chain throws, Ken Combo's, with in the first week of getting the game in Japan, people are already adapting to how they used to play in Melee. And that's not the best part. We are going to try and play our characters how we would in Melee. For now, that will suffice, But what happens when we try and find new metagames for every character? I guess we are going to have to wait to find out. Hehe.

Conclusion
I'm sorry if this has already been said, but I really wanted to just express my opinion to the smash community, and get some of your opinions back to me. I guess all in all, we can't really say that Brawl is going to be like melee, but I can say that we competitive players are going to push this game to some limit, and make it competitive, We've waited too long for a game to just fall short of that aspect, right?

Thanks for reading guys. ^-^​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

Best101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
983
Location
Atlanta, GA
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Hey everybody.
I was just at a tournament, with some good people like Zhu and Hydro Kirby, and I spoke to Zhu about Brawl. Like him, there are a lot of people who don't really like it, due to it's "Slow." Nature. A lot of people are anticipating retiring due to the fact that maybe they can't be as technical as they would like to be. Well... I was about ready to retire from the competitive scene too, [Pfft, Like I'm good or anything. XD], But then some ideas dawned on me. I'ld like to share them with you guys. :]
You haven't even played Brawl yet. How do you know that Brawl doesn't have a competitive seen. In my opinion from what I saw I can see a lot of potential for a competitive seen in Brawl

The Problem at Hand.
I'm pretty sure that the biggest problem among players, is the fact that the engine of Brawl has been all changed up. Nothing is the same, and the characters seem to be a bit slower, I also believe that is how this game got the title for being a completely different game. Many people think that this game will not be pushed to any limit, if it even has one like Melee and SSB did. In addition, many people are shocked at how a little change, like taking out wavedashing, has "Shattered" Their careers as players. Furthermore, people think that Combos are only done automatically, there are no creative combos like a good ol' Ken combo anymore. The base statement, "We just can't push this game to the limits as we did Melee."
March 9 is all I got to say about this game. Also if you can't accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee then maybe you aren't a true Smash Bros fan. (Not directed towards you :))


The contradictions.
Well, I've been doing a lot of research, a lot of interviewing, and a lot of Video watching, and it got my brain thinking. Here is the first point I'd like to make.

Push it to the Limit.
The fact of the matter is, SSB was pushed to it's limit, Melee was pushed to a same, if not even greater limit, and Brawl will be no different. When we first took a look at Melee, I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Smash community felt it as more of a party game, as it was intended to be. However, things changed, when Wavedashing was figured out. Now, I don't have dates, but I can tell you that Smash entered the competitive scene early of 2004. Ever since then, people have been ripping melee apart to find every glitch, every trick, everything that we know now as Advanced Techniques, until there wasn't much more to find. Then we decided that we needed to create Metagames for each character, as to push each character to their limits. I submit to you, why can we not push Brawl to it's Limit?

Let's wait and see :)

The common mindset.
There has been too much Negative rep, way to much. Many people indict that Brawl is "Never going to be that of what Melee is now." And with that statement, there has been assumptions floating around, everywhere. People have been taking that statement, the extra mile. Like a rumor, it has been spread, and manipulated, into "Brawl is not going to be competitive, and it is going to suck." Why do we assume that? Because we have Scrubs, like the ones on Game Faq's posting bad reviews to get attention, and we have people who are just trying to bash the hype in their minds to get over their undying anticipation.

Now you're talking :laugh:

A competitive Gamers Subconscious mission
When SSB came out, people subtly pushed it to the limit, however, when Melee arrived, nobody was near the Limit for SSB. It took the will of Isai to really push it to the limit, after Melee was already on the scene. Hype died out for SSB, and attention pulled to SSBM. Players began to install fear in hearts of others by showing them their skill of wavedashing, SHFFLing, Etc. It was so big, that noobs around the globe began to practice, and practice and practice. There must be over 100,000 People who know about this games methods, whether or not they can perform it, is a different subject in it self. Now, Lets remind ourselves, Smash came out December of 01. It took us virtually 3 years to get it out on the competitive scene. We've had such an exponential growth of people who know about the Advanced techniques in this game, that I have no doubt in my mind, that Brawl will be Pushed to SOME limit in less than a Year. You and I both know, reader, that you are going to unpack this game, and SHFFL, that is the first thing you are going to do, or maybe some cute little Double Fairs, or maybe some Pillaring if that is possible. Already, you are going to rip this game apart. It is that gull that is going to be the underlying factor in pushing this game to the limit. Maybe one day, little Jimmy will accidentally cancel an Auto smash combo, and them BOOM, Advanced technique number one, Smash canceling. That is an example, but you get what I mean. People are going to be all over this game, like nothing.

My view on the situation exactly

My inspiration.
As I was chatting on Gaiaonline.com, An angel sent me some videos of Marth playing multiple characters. At first I was skeptical in watching. Inside, I was thinking, "Well, it does not matter, Melee is better and blah blah blah." But then I actually took a closer look.
See if you can point it out, before I even tell you,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5142fHYDdBc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPO02OOtMFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60WWR1by7Qo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX7h....com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=5137&p=94836

I want to bring special attention to the first one. Hehe.
Now, I never expected this game to move that quickly. Marth clearly shows how he can move just as fast as he did in Melee. It's with that point alone that I submit the following. Is it not possible for all characters to do the same? Pikachu in that video sucked, but the base idea of what I'm getting at isn't reflected in the skill of the Pikachu. Those Double Fairs, chain throws, Ken Combo's, with in the first week of getting the game in Japan, people are already adapting to how they used to play in Melee. And that's not the best part. We are going to try and play our characters how we would in Melee. For now, that will suffice, But what happens when we try and find new metagames for every character? I guess we are going to have to wait to find out. Hehe.

Yeah this game is pretty fast, not that much of a speed difference between Brawl and Melee. Just watch a lot more videos on Brawl (I've seen plenty already)

Conclusion
I'm sorry if this has already been said, but I really wanted to just express my opinion to the smash community, and get some of your opinions back to me. I guess all in all, we can't really say that Brawl is going to be like melee, but I can say that we competitive players are going to push this game to some limit, and make it competitive, We've waited too long for a game to just fall short of that aspect, right?

The transition to SSB64 to SSBM was a pretty big difference. SSBM to SSBB looks like it will be no different, except the fact that Brawl will be the best game you'll play in gaming history

Thanks for reading guys. ^-^​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
Quoted for resize
Edit: I think people got spoiled with the competitive scene in SSBM and expect every Smash Bros game afterwards to be just like it and if the game wasn't the same then the game would suck (I'm guilty of this too =p)
 

cynar

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
112
Location
Ontario, Canada
I didn't read your post, but only an idiot would say it's not competitive. Boy do we have a ton of them here. ;)
 

Sariku

Smash Master
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
4,384
Location
Biloxi, Mississippi
I've been thinking these things for awhile as well, but some people on this forum is too stubborn to think that way. I say if they had some Global Release so that we could play it at the same time as the Japanese things would be different opinion wise.
 

hotgarbage

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
1,028
Location
PA
Good read.
We are going to try and play our characters how we would in Melee. For now, that will suffice, But what happens when we try and find new metagames for every character?
I like this point especially. People are playing Brawl like they played Melee at this point (which makes sense...the games only been out a few days)... but that doesn't really work because Brawl is a completely different game than Melee. It's going to be exciting to see what develops when people begin ease into Brawl's playstyle. Heh, I really just repeated what you just said :p. But yea, anyways good points.
 

S2

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
1,503
Location
Socal 805 (aka Hyrule)
Well some players are going to use Brawl as a way to retire from Smash, not just because they changed a lot of stuff, but because they want to retire.

When a single game dominates a large part of your hobby time, sometimes players just don't want to play anymore. You can't really blame them for losing interest in something. A sequel is a good place for a player to simply retire.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
There will be competitive Brawl. I think everyone just has their panties in a bunch. This is how Melee was suppose to be. With out complicated BS you use to get an edge on your opponent. But learning the finer points of the game and your character. To truly use all at your disposables and fight.

I think you make a valid point. There is some change as noted from the video, but overall, it's Smash.
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
Well some players are going to use Brawl as a way to retire from Smash, not just because they changed a lot of stuff, but because they want to retire.

When a single game dominates a large part of your hobby time, sometimes players just don't want to play anymore. You can't really blame them for losing interest in something. A sequel is a good place for a player to simply retire.
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Right, I agree, However retiring for the reason that Brawl isn't going to be competitive... that's just ignorant. If you retire because you are tired of the game, then thats cool. Some people are retiring for a reason that is based on an uneducated assumption.​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

Crispy4001

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
730
I used to think that I could not go on
And life was nothing but an awful song
But now I know the meaning of true love
I'm leaning on the everlasting arms

If I can see it, then I can do it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it

I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
I believe I can soar
I see me running through that open door
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly

See I was on the verge of breaking down
Sometimes silence can seem so loud
There are miracles in life I must achieve
But first I know it starts inside of me, oh

If I can see it, then I can do it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it

Hey, cuz I believe in me, oh

If I can see it, then I can be it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it

Hey, if I just spread my wings
I can fly
I can fly
I can fly, hey
If I just spread my wings
I can fly
Fly-eye-eye
 

Patinator

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
2,194
Location
Decatur, Tennessee.
Wow. Sir, you are the most respectable person on this sight. I nearly cried as I read your beautiful post. And I completely agree. Brawl will be conpetitive; give it a chance first.
 

Hmaal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
359
Location
Georgia
You make alot of points and then you miss some too.

Great job, though loved it!
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
Wow. Sir, you are the most respectable person on this sight. I nearly cried as I read your beautiful post. And I completely agree. Brawl will be conpetitive; give it a chance first.
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Thanks. :]
And thanks everybody for your comments. ^_^​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

SaxyPlayah

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
112
Location
Cape Girardeau, MO
Heh, nice naruto reference.....

Anyways, i still hope brawl has a competitive edge like in melee....but possibly easier to master, cause i had a lot of hard times trying to SHFFL. That was a nice read though, glad there are others who hope to see the competitive side of brawl.
 

S2

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
1,503
Location
Socal 805 (aka Hyrule)
All Brawl will need to be competitive is a large group of players who simply want to be the best.

It really doesn't matter how deep the game , it could still be heavily competitive even if it lacks depth.

That being said, the depth of Melee is why players love it so much even 6 years later. With so many Brawl players, people will find advanced techs and develop good mindgames. It'll be different than Melee, but we'll find stuff.
 

Dustero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
435
Brawl will probably become as competative as melee. Just give it time. People will learn new ways to play, they don't need their advance techniques.

Even if there are no "advanced techniques" in Brawl, the pros. will still be better then the average smasher because they have more experienced.
 

Kyle29

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
95
I didn't read your post, but only an idiot would say it's not competitive. Boy do we have a ton of them here. ;)
QFT, any game can be competitive, I know because of the roster this game seems like melee 1.1, but its not. THIS IS BRAWL. Stop crying about wavedash, waveblah, and air wave****, if its not in the game who cares, you all "competators" will make up new ones. The better player will be the player that plays the game more, not which one knows more adv. techinques. OK?????
 

180OP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
345
Location
Toronto, Ontario
but will brawl be as fun as melee? all the matches i've seen so far are pretty slow compared to melee gameplay but then again. melee is 7 years old and brawl is 3 days old. But without SHFFLing...I dont see a way it will become any faster.

Teh game looks very linear at the moment. But i am optimistic.

and if brawl for some reason happens to uber-suck to the point you cant play it and go back to melee. then whatever. back to melee it is. call of duty 4 is pretty hot too.
 

Gerkuman

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
32
From what I can see, it looks like there's going to be more people interested in smash than ever before; which I think is brilliant. However, it looks like there's going to be a split depending on the way you play it. There's the people who look for Advanced Techniques, (Who I will henceforth refer to as the Meta's, because of their focus on Meta-game) and the people who will just practice and practiceto get good (The KISS-ers, short for Keep it simple... you know the rest XD).

Why do I think this? Because the wifi content is going to introduce many more people to smash scene who don't want to have to learn the techniques as well as the people who are already opposed to them. I'm one of them; I've never really seem the point of ATecs. But they want to join a league, so there will be leagues set up to cater for this new group.

I don't see it as a bad thing though; more people play smash competitively, people who want to use ATecs can and the people who don't can face others who don't either. There might even be item leagues! :) So I don't think that competitive smash will die, I think the exact opposite. It'll just change.
 

Help!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
250
Location
Washington
I liked your post The videos of the marth are pretty fast. Compared to other vids ive seen. but i never doubted the competitive nature of ssbb. I don't see why it cant be competitive at all, but theres just too much negative hype from a game we dont have. But nice post and i totally agree with you.
 

hao chi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
32
Location
Copperas Cove, TX
I'm disappointed that L Canceling is out, but I think it will be interesting to see how the Smash community adapts. I think people will gradually accept that this isn't Melee v2 and find other ways to make SSBB very competitive.
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Thanks everybody,
I wonder if anybody has anything contradictory to say.​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Wait, L canceling isn't out, is it?
Edit: Well it isn't as effective, but it is still there.​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

draigaran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
123
I think it's been said that L canceling is out. Of course, it's been less than a week since Brawl has been released. Tactics won't be realized for a while. But even if fewer advanced tactics appear in Brawl than did Melee, who cares? It just means more emphasis on playing smart. If this is the case, techs will STILL be important, just not as important in Brawl. Up to you to decide if you like that change.

Nice post. :b
 

Ojanya

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
593
Location
Ohio
Fighting games are always competitive. Brawl could freaking suck compared to every other fighting game, but if there were people that wanted to be good at it, it would develop a competitive scene, no matter the size.
 

PanzerOceania

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
640
Location
Salem, Oregon USA
yes, I've said it before, and I'll say it again,

the SOLE person in the entire world that can claim that Brawl is too easy, is the world tournament champion, everyone else has not reached their true potential, and even then that person has to defend their title and will likely be beat sooner or later by some new champion.

also, furry marth = scaaaaaaaaaary.
 

Team Giza

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
1,119
Location
San Diego, CA
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?! Stop quoting Naruto. Seriously who the hell quotes from an anime. MY DRILL IS ONE THAT PIERCES THE HEAVENS!
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?! Stop quoting Naruto. Seriously who the hell quotes from an anime. MY DRILL IS ONE THAT PIERCES THE HEAVENS!
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Ehh, when did I quote Naruto? O-o​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

watomsk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
33
Location
Saunderstown, Rhode Island
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?! Stop quoting Naruto. Seriously who the hell quotes from an anime. MY DRILL IS ONE THAT PIERCES THE HEAVENS!
He's not quoting Naruto, he's quoting a song called Wind by Akeboshi, which happens to be an ending for Naruto.

That's my 2 cents... I really have nothing to say about competitive Smash... >,> just wanted to clear that up...
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
Sky... you inspire me to crimbing the moutnain and never farring down...

to Giza: KICK REASON TO THE CURB!!!!!!!
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Hehe, your comments are too nice. =]​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

Sky Hazuki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
177
Location
Gilroy California
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?! Stop quoting Naruto. Seriously who the hell quotes from an anime. MY DRILL IS ONE THAT PIERCES THE HEAVENS!
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


Oh, it's not Naruto, it's A song called Wind, by Akeboshi.​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 
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