Brawl+ General Tier Discussion

[Roxas215]

Good god...


Okay. Ness was better than (IMO):
Falcon, Ganon, Sheik, Bowser, Yoshi, Ivy, Jiggs, Samus, Mario, Link and Sonic.

I may be wrong about a few (plus I may got flamed/shot down/owned) but saying Ness was bottom ten without any proof is just wrong.

Gimping? You've got to ******** be kidding me. You name gimping his recovery his main weakness? You play some pretty bad Ness. Ness weakness in vBrawl was his godawful grab release, subpar ground game and okay aerial game. He had next to no defensive game, and was mostly an offensive character.

asl?

I gimped ness with peach and ivy almost every stock before simna's ridiculous build.

Also there is no way in hell ness is better then shiek,link,or ivy. Other chars are debatable.

asl=auto sweetspot ledge.

Also i said ness weakness in b+ not his weakness in vbrawl. In b+ his recovery is very big weakness to ness(of course like i stated i was talking before the recent changes)

 

[PKNintendo]

I gimped ness with peach and ivy almost every stock before simna's ridiculous build.

Also there is no way in hell ness is better then shiek,link,or ivy. Other chars are debatable.

asl=auto sweetspot ledge.

Also i said ness weakness in b+ not his weakness in vbrawl. In b+ his recovery is very big weakness to ness(of course like i stated i was talking before the recent changes)

Who though!
Who did you face!

No **** you gimped Ness with Peach

Ivy? (you have got to be kidding me)
How did Ness NOT gimp Ivy? Honestly now, his recovery is beyond bad.

 

[Roxas215]

Who though!
Who did you face!

No **** you gimped Ness with Peach

Ivy? (you have got to be kidding me)
How did Ness NOT gimp Ivy? Honestly now, his recovery is beyond bad.

I do think ness has the tools to **** ivy recovery. Maybe i just played a bad ness player. But ivy isn't gimped THAT badly. You can stall in the air with dair to save your double jump ans if u time her leaves you can knock people off the ledge


Also ivy's ground game is just better then ness. Have u seen a ivy on ww?

 

[PKNintendo]

I do think ness has the tools to **** ivy recovery. Maybe i just played a bad ness player. But ivy isn't gimped THAT badly. You can stall in the air with dair to save your double jump ans if u time her leaves you can knock people off the ledge


Also ivy's ground game is just better then ness. Have u seen a ivy on ww?

True.

But Ness options for recovery outweigh Ivy's.
Brawl + doesn't stale so, Ness tossing some backthrows at mid-high% isn't stupid and screws Ivy over.

Ness may seem bad when you use Peach to **** him. (float=****)
but Ivy doesn't seem to bad.

 

[B3Brawler]

THERE NEEDS TO BE A TIER LIST FOOLS!
I hate it when people say that there shouldn't be. One of the main objectives of the project is to create a BALANCED GAME. As of now it is UNBALANCED. How is the community supposed to balance a game when they can't even reach a consensus on which characters are better and which are worse. The Tier list should act as an indicator of how well the game is balanced. As it stands (IMO) the tiers are somthing like this

S: Fox, Falco, Squirtle
A: Marth, MK
B: Toon Link, Shiek, Sonic
C: CF, Ganondorf, DK,

Other people who i need to add.

Hey what's that? Fox and Falco are top tier, what does that remind me of? MELEE.
I seriously think fox has been over buffed, mainly because he was so nerfed in brawl but so good in melee. This also true to a lesser extent with link. Where as Lucas has pretty much stayed the same. And by the same i mean meh.

In Summary: We need low tier characters. So they can be identified as characters who need to be buffed. as opposed to characters who got nerfed from melee.

kthxbai

 

[Roxas215]

THERE NEEDS TO BE A TIER LIST FOOLS!
I hate it when people say that there shouldn't be. One of the main objectives of the project is to create a BALANCED GAME. As of now it is UNBALANCED. How is the community supposed to balance a game when they can't even reach a consensus on which characters are better and which are worse. The Tier list should act as an indicator of how well the game is balanced. As it stands (IMO) the tiers are somthing like this

S: Fox, Falco, Squirtle
A: Marth, MK
B: Toon Link, Shiek, Sonic
C: CF, Ganondorf, DK,

Other people who i need to add.

Hey what's that? Fox and Falco are top tier, what does that remind me of? MELEE.
I seriously think fox has been over buffed, mainly because he was so nerfed in brawl but so good in melee. This also true to a lesser extent with link. Where as Lucas has pretty much stayed the same. And by the same i mean meh.

In Summary: We need low tier characters. So they can be identified as characters who need to be buffed. as opposed to characters who got nerfed from melee.

kthxbai

Putting chars like sonic in b tier shows u have no idea what your talking about.

Falco isn't in the same rank as fox,squirtle and marth. And falco is definitely not better then mk.

Where is zss and pika? Where is luigi? Where is kirby? Also dk is way better then ganon and cf. I dont think people understand how good dk is in this game. Uthrow to uair works. It's crazy


Also lucas is **** good now.

 

[B3Brawler]

Putting chars like sonic in b tier shows u have no idea what your talking about.

Falco isn't in the same rank as fox,squirtle and marth. And falco is definitely not better then mk.

Where is zss and pika? Where is luigi? Where is kirby? Also dk is way better then ganon and cf. I dont think people understand how good dk is in this game. Uthrow to uair works. It's crazy


Also lucas is **** good now.

Falco's SHDL is too good. Against slow characcters such as DK and Ganon he can pretty much spam that to take away all of their approach options except for full jump and eat laser. And then when they do approach he can short hop a single lasaer into a side B, or a dash into Usmash. Against another good projectile charachter he can single laser into his down B. Furthermore, his down throw and Utilt both come out really fast and lead into several combo options at several percentages. Then there's his Dair which not only spikes, but can be used as an approach similar to ganon's Dair but much harder to dodge away from. My falco can match skilleed foxes and MKs anyday,

As for MK, without his super priority whorenado he is easily out spaced by characters such as marth and his approach can be easily hindered by projectiles. (cough cough Falco's SHDL cough cough) Still a great character, but he has some legitimate counters now.

And I've played alot of good sonic's but they all have the same meta games pretty much.
As long as you keep moving you can avoid all of his hit and run attacks, and with proper DI none of his aerial chases are that good. Did I mention that his approach can be ***** by falco's SHDL?

As for all those other character's you mentioned i chose not to include them because i don't have much experience against them. And I decided that I would not be able to make a fair judgment on their ranking. Unlike you and falco.

And no, lucas is not good. he's super gimpable, has crappy range on his attacks and a mediocre aerial game. Ness is the one who's been getting all the attention

 

[ToxiCrow]

Also lucas is **** good now.

And no, lucas is not good. he's super gimpable, has crappy range on his attacks and a mediocre aerial game.

Lucas has Zap Jump, Wave Zap, Magnet Pull, Tether; not just PKT2.

but i agree, lucas is still not good. i've been using him since the release of vbrawl and while he got a few buffs in +, he still sucks.
Characters like Marth, MK and GW still tear his butthole open.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wrong. Lucas is a great character inB+. Even better than Ness I might add. He was heavily buffed because of the new physics/no grab release.

Lucas has the nair of the gods. Fmash kills early, fair isnt screwed over from stale moveset.

Lucas doesnt suck.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Umm.... Brawl+ isn't finished yet. When will it be finished? In September?

 

[ToxiCrow]

Wrong. Lucas is a great character inB+. Even better than Ness I might add. He was heavily buffed because of the new physics/no grab release.

Just wait till the game if finished and you'll see Lucas is still not that great compared to everyone els (even with no grab release because thats not the only thing wrong with him).
you can do a bunch of things out of Nair, but it's priority is meh.
and if he does become a great character then i will happily take back what i said. i'd even like it if he becomes a great character. but i dont see that happening.

 

[Plum]

Characters like Marth, MK and GW still tear his butthole open.

That's a lovely thing we like to call bad matchups in the omnipresent counterpick system that will loom over B+ potentially to a higher degree than any other Smash game.

Of course when you mention only the characters who can abuse Lucas's weakness (lack of range) he is going to sound bad. I can say G&W is absolute trash by using that same logic; Marth, MK, Snake and Diddy can run right over the poor 2D man. Does that mean G&W is bad? Of course not. Those are just his bad matchups and a reason for me to get a secondary.

Lucas does well in some aspects, and poor in others. He has good matchups and bad matchups. It just means you need a secondary to cover yourself.

And just because you need a secondary doesn't mean a character isn't viable; especially considering that one of the goals is to have at least one solid counter for each character. If nobody can make it with just one character alone without simply outplaying everyone of their bad matchups then B+ will have done its job very well.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Plum i never said he wasnt viable. he's not that great when you compare him to the majority of the cast.
those 3 are not the only characters who abuse Lucas' lack of range/priority (Peach, Sheik, Snake, Falco, Ness, Wario*, Kirby* . . .should i keep going??)

Of course bad match ups will always be present, but when a character has more bad matchups then good ones he will be considered a "Bad Character".

I'd like to hear what you think makes Lucas good. And i'm really not being sarcastic. (<3 the sig by the way)

 

[WheelOfFish]

Isn't it sort of hard to make a tier list for a constantly changing game with the intentions of balancing the characters?

 

[ToxiCrow]

Isn't it sort of hard to make a tier list for a constantly changing game with the intentions of balancing the characters?

balance=/= no tier list.
balance means most/all characters are viable.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I never said anything about the existence of a tier. I said the game is constantly changing.

 

[GHNeko]

I've got a pretty solid tier list guys.

SS Tier : :V
S - C Tier : The Roster

Can't beat that guys.

Rather than discussion tiers of any fashion whether it be specific or general, I think you guys need to go to your character threads and discuss matchups.

:V

 

[PKNintendo]

Just wait till the game if finished and you'll see Lucas is still not that great compared to everyone els (even with no grab release because thats not the only thing wrong with him).
you can do a bunch of things out of Nair, but it's priority is meh.
and if he does become a great character then i will happily take back what i said. i'd even like it if he becomes a great character. but i dont see that happening.

Yeah just like vbrawl... But this time Lucas is already on higher ground.
Without the grab releases, he isn't ****** over already. With PKF speed increase, he can keep

Lucas aerial's are combo machines. Chain Fair after fair and so on.
Nair is incredibly well, dair is just plain amazing, (new shield stun helps it)

ALR is GODSEND for Lucas. Fsmash (without staling is just amazing KO wise)
Recovery is great and his jumps are amazing.

Lucas IS good.

 

[GHNeko]

Lucas is GOOD but is he good in comparison to the REST of the cast?

:V


In a balanced fighter after metagame is developed, what affects tier placement the most is indeed matchups.

 

[B3Brawler]

jeez, what a huge deal over lucas. That wasn't even the point of my original post.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Without the grab releases, he isn't ****** over already.
Uh, what? I said the grab release wasn't the only thing wrong with him. i really dont understand what you just said

With PKF speed increase, he can keep
That was removed

Lucas aerial's are combo machines.
Chain Fair after fair and so on.
i can somewhat agree

Nair is incredibly well
Again, you can do a bunch of stuff out of it but so many moves out prioritize his Nair

dair is just plain amazing,
now this i can agree with

Fsmash (without staling is just amazing KO wise)
Recovery is great
Ok.

Lucas IS good.
I think you missed the point of my previous post. You may think Lucas is good, but so many characters are better and thats something you cant deny. Look at the characters i listed before. If you attend Brawl+ tournies, you will most likely see Kirby, Peach, Marth, Wario, MK, etc. These characters beat Lucas. If Lucas beats mid-tier characters but doesnt do well against High/Top tier characters, then he's probably not that good.

Lucas is GOOD but is he good in comparison to the REST of the cast?
:V
In a balanced fighter after metagame is developed, what affects tier placement the most is indeed matchups.

Gen gar

 

[PKNintendo]

Lucas is GOOD but is he good in comparison to the REST of the cast?

:V


In a balanced fighter after metagame is developed, what affects tier placement the most is indeed matchups.

I'm not sure... Guess thats something we'll find out soon. :V


I did not know it was removed.

I think you missed the point of my previous post. You may think Lucas is good, but so many characters are better and thats something you cant deny. Look at the characters i listed before. If you attend Brawl+ tournies, you will most likely see Kirby, Peach, Marth, Wario, MK, etc. These characters beat Lucas. If Lucas beats mid-tier characters but doesnt do well against High/Top tier characters, then he's probably not that good.

I wouldn't count Lucas out yet. This is Brawl + in it's infancy stage. We haven't finalized the matchups.