Brawl+ General Tier Discussion

[Mr.-0]

I've decided to change the name of the thread. I"d like to start of by saying no more do we want a full tier list. Such a thing is impossible at this point in time. We are looking for generally agreed upon outlooks on who's good and who's bad. In other words, the thread is now a place to discuss the most rough and general idea of a tier list that could possibly be allowed at this point in time.


I figured that since Brawl+ was way more popular now, and since it's further towards gold version than it was a while back, and that since none of the other threads like this were recent and stuff, I decided to make this. Though, it may still be to early, and people may flame me, and it may get locked, and it probably has already been done before, but I decided to do it anyway.


Okay, redoing this whole paragraph, the point of this thread is to get a generally agreed upon outlook on who's good and who's not, and then make changes to it as B+ develops. this is by no means any longer a thread to make a completely clear or legit tier list, at BEST we hope to make a rough list divided into four or five tiers, and when B+ goes gold well have a head start on the tier list. Heck, if it goes poorly, it might even turn into a list with only three tiers. Like I said, this is no longer a thread attempting to make a 100% completely legit and clear tier list, but just a thread trying to make a VERY rough idea on what it'll look like and a generally agreed outlook on where the characters stand. Because it is no longer a clear tier list, we can roughly change the list once b+ updates, and when it goes gold we can finalize it. Also, I want ABSOLUTELY NO DISCUSSION ON TO WHAT EXTENT CHARACTERS SHOULD BE BUFFED/NERFED AND WHAT NOT. THERE IS ALREADY THREE/FOUR PAGES HERE LIKE THAT AND ANY SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY REPORTED!!!

So, without further ado, please begin and discuss!

 

[Mr.-0]

So, each week we will discuss and debate onto what characters should belong in each tier and what not. This week/several weeks, we will be discussing High Tier. This should include approximently 12 characters.

So, in no order

1. MK
2.Fox
3.Squirtle
4.Marth
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.

This are the generally agreed upon characters for high tier. Unfortunately, it is not yet complete. So throughout the next week or so, we will discuss the blank spots in this list, and then move on to Mid tier. Than once we have finished, we will update the list to match B+'s updates. Hopefully we will not fall behind and will be able to quickly adapt to the new updates. Yes, I know it is too early for tiers, but I don't see anything wrong with three EXTREMELY rough tiers. This is more of a general discussion thread than an obsolete tier list thread, hence the name. So, plz discuss and stuff.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

The game is not finished yet. Until Brawl+ is finished, tehre shall be no tier list. This is way too early. Lock this.

 

[Roxas215]

While i do think it is still too early for a tier list i don't think this should be locked. I think the game is far enough to have a clear vision on who is better then who.

I think the general opinion on top 5 is(in no order)

fox,marth,squirtle,mk,kirby

IMO again in no order(Pika,Zss,Snake,Luigi,Falco) makes up top 10

After that i have no idea. Although im sure ivy and yoshi are bottom 5.

But yea if you wanted a clear tier list then this should be locked since the game isn't done yet.

 

[Strong Badam]

captain falcon is a beast in B+ <_<
but yeah... the game is constantly undergoing changes and the metagame doesn't have time to truly evolve, and probably won't until B+ is "finished," and has a lot of tournament exposure.

 

[Mr.-0]

I hope it doesn't get locked. Maybe we SHOULD start with top tier first.

 

[Roxas215]

captain falcon is a beast in B+ <_<

No he's not. Even with his buffs he still lacks priority and his weight just screams (combo me to hell)

Falcon is playable and can definitely hold his own in brawl+ but he's nothing to brag about.

Although i have this feeling u was being sarcastic lol.

 

[Mr.-0]

See, it's to early for a tier list, but not a genral agreement on who's good and who's not. I should have changed the title, though. I also nominate MK, Squirtle, Marth, and Fok in no particular order for top tier.

 

[ph00tbag]

I once laid out a list of the characters in terms of how I would rank them, but it was just for fun, and I deleted it soon after. I don't remember what it looked like, either.

The list looked a lot like Phillyrider's though. I don't think I put Luigi quite that high, but that's probably mostly regional differences. I'm exposed to different characters than he is.

 

[Mr.-0]

I think that luigi should be in the top 5. Maybe not in top tier, but definitely up there. UpB comboes are AMAZING. See, this thread's moving nicely.

 

[kr3wman]

I played Elef's yoshi and Yoshi is mad legit LOL.

EDIT : Basically what will happen here.

'omg I think X character is top'

'omg y is better'

'omg Z is better than both X and Y combined'

'omg omg omg'

 

[Mr.-0]

Edit: NvM.

 

[BRLNK88]

Fox has a **** defensive game, and bad recovery that asks to be gimped, and is bad at edgeguarding, I don't see him as top tier.

 

[Mr.-0]

... I guess that's true, but his his comboability is way too good to be anything less than high tier or top tier imo.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I don't understand why everybody wants to make tier list.
We don't need one at the moment. Nothing's done. Your top/high tiers might as well just get down to middle tier -_-...

' I h4z teh t1er leest !'
' I h4z teh p0w3rz0mg !!'

 

[Mr.-0]

What's wrong with making a general and not super and clear accurate community B+ tier list? As of what i'm hoping for it to turn out, it should be a general agreement on several tiers in the game. It
'll change as Brawl+ progresses. It's pretty clear as to what characters are good and what not. So, why not make a general tier list?

 

[Roxas215]

Fox has a **** defensive game, and bad recovery that asks to be gimped, and is bad at edgeguarding, I don't see him as top tier.

I personally don't think he's top 5 either. I said that was the general opinion on the boards though. I feel any char with a little speed can **** fox as long as they space correctly due to how fast he falls. Also the fact that i main peach where dthrow to sweetspotted usmash actually works. I've 2 stocked foxes with ivy lol. Also you can easily cp fox on say frigate and let the **** commence. Also fox's camp game really isn't nothing to be scared of since the lasers don't stun or anything unlike falco. As long as u watch out for dair-upsmash(which kills pretty early) Your good

Although im hearing they giving fox a jc shine which should really change up his metagame. This is a reason a b+ tier list cant be made yet. One little change like this will completely change the way people play a char.

 

[Mr.-0]

But you can't forgot that his comboes are amazing. His nair is also amazing. But then again, his recovery does suck hard. But how is he bad at edgeguarding?

 

[codfish92]

haven't like ten threads like this come up and have all been locked cuz brawl+ isn't 100%
there should be a sticky discouraging this.

 

[Mr.-0]

Well, yeah, but what's so wrong about a general tier list thread that would change with B+? Like say, we suddenly come to the conclusion that Luigi and Mk are the best, and then if they take away the sweetspot on luigi's upb ( I think it' called a sweetspot ) and remove MK"s lagless attacks and put a bunch of lag on them, than we would bump them down and rearrange the list.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

What's wrong with making a general and not super and clear accurate community B+ tier list? As of what i'm hoping for it to turn out, it should be a general agreement on several tiers in the game. It
'll change as Brawl+ progresses. It's pretty clear as to what characters are good and what not. So, why not make a general tier list?

Because changes won't only be on low and middle tier characters. Tops might get nerfed again and all that kinda stuff.

No use making a tierlist now, it might get changed completely.
People will have the tendencies to try keeping the top tiers where they are. Some characters really get overrated after a while. Look at C.Falcon, many claim that he's worthy of Top Tier because of his buffs. Is that the case? Not at all. Which will lead to t3h d3b4te 0f h41llz!... Resulting in making a new thread because this one will have been way too full. Locking that new thread until Brawl+ goes gold because discussions will go on endlessly.

 

[codfish92]

because there isn't enough data/agreement to make a tier list for b+. until it's 100% no data is viable. and again, nobody is in agreement for the tier list.

 

[Mr.-0]

Because changes won't only be on low and middle tier characters. Tops might get nerfed again and all that kinda stuff.

No use making a tierlist now, it might get changed completely.
People will have the tendencies to try keeping the top tiers where they are. Some characters really get overrated after a while. Look at C.Falcon, many claim that he's worthy of Top Tier because of his buffs. Is that the case? Not at all. Which will lead to t3h d3b4te 0f h41llz!... Resulting in making a new thread because this one will have been way too full. Locking that new thread until Brawl+ goes gold because discussions will go on endlessly.

... Okay, I guess that does make sense. But I doubt it'll get changed too completely, though, So I thought this might be a good idea.

 

[codfish92]

ok here's a list

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10.?
11.?
12.?
13.?
14.?
15.?
16.?
...

it's not that people don't want a list, it's just not gonna happen yet. if any list exists, i'm positive that 90% of the b+ community will disagree with it

 

[RyuReiatsu]

... Okay, I guess that does make sense. But I doubt it'll get changed too completely, though, So I thought this might be a good idea.

We can use vBrawl's if it doesn't. (Not like that it will be the case...).
You totally get what I'm getting at. It will get changed.

 

[Mr.-0]

Yes, I do, but what's wrong with changing it as B+ changes, or are you saying that if any major changes occur than i'll have to redo the list entirely?

 

[matt4300]

/not a rant,just an observation
If its so clear cut and easy to tell even at this stage who the best are( MK, Marth, Fox,Kirby,Luigi,Squirtle,Diddy,ZZS,Snake,Falco,Pika,Rob,shiek... ) and that everyone eles is in a big blurry mash... Don't these chars that are obviously better than the blurry mash need to be nerfed into the blur? Isnet that what balance is? I have personally heard no plans of nerfing diddy,zzs,falco or pika at all. I know for a fact that all the chars i mentioned will have more good matchups then the big blur. Looks like before this goes gold the plussery is gonna need to **** those chars or there will still only be 15 or so chars that are played at all. (don't kill me Shannus,cape,falco ect...)

 

[codfish92]

changes occur too fast to make a list for each one. it's easier to just wait for the final version to come out then make a actual list.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

changes occur too fast to make a list for each one. it's easier to just wait for the final version to come out then make a actual list.

This.


If you know where your prey is usually hiding at. Get there there directly and stop running after it.
And these are already pretty much placed in vBrawl's tier list. Use that one for the time being?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Falco for top 3

 

[Mr.-0]

changes occur too fast to make a list for each one. it's easier to just wait for the final version to come out then make a actual list.

... Now I get it. IF a new brawl+ comes out in a week, and if it takes 2 months to make a crystal clear tier list, than we'll be behind 20 times.

Okay mods, lock thread.

 

[Roxas215]

/not a rant,just an observation
If its so clear cut and easy to tell even at this stage who the best are( MK, Marth, Fox,Kirby,Luigi,Squirtle,Diddy,ZZS,Snake,Falco,Pika,Rob,shiek... ) and that everyone eles is in a big blurry mash... Don't these chars that are obviously better than the blurry mash need to be nerfed into the blur? Isnet that what balance is? I have personally heard no plans of nerfing diddy,zzs,falco or pika at all. I know for a fact that all the chars i mentioned will have more good matchups then the big blur. Looks like before this goes gold the plussery is gonna need to **** those chars or there will still only be 15 or so chars that are played at all. (don't kill me Shannus,cape,falco ect...)

That makes no sense. Every single char u listed has obvious flaws. Smash has and will always be a game of matchups.

When a char is leaps and bounds ahead of other chars(mk in vbrawl) then yes something is wrong. This is not the case in brawl+ However tiers have an will always exist. Anyone that thinks perfect balance is even possible let alone will happen is lying to themselves.

 

[Plum]

Fox has a **** defensive game, and bad recovery that asks to be gimped, and is bad at edgeguarding, I don't see him as top tier.

Yeah his defensive game kinda sucks (a lot of why he sucked in vBrawl) but his offensive game WAY more than makes up for it. He has a plethora of combos, reliable kill options, effective camping, and amazing speed that offset his weaknesses by a long shot. Personally I would put him in the top 5.

For me, the top tier (going with a general top 10 type of thing) consists of

MK
Fox
Squirtle
Marth
Diddy Kong
Wario
Luigi
Snake
Kirby
PrOlimar

So this can actually be a discussion thread (which even though its WAY too early for a tier list I don't see it being too early for discussion) let's get some reasoning:

MK
This is an obvious character. No doubt about it. Any reliable kill option is now killing MUCH later and many of his best moves have lost a degree of effectiveness; Fair lost range, Dtilt is slower, Tornado is very easy to punish and etc. He lacks the effective combos of other potential top tier characters and he can't kill; but he has the best recovery in the game bar none, the best gimp game in the game bar none, and a spectacular pressure game to keep the momentum in his favor. The transcendent priority makes his weak fast attacks just cut through the enemy like butter plus he already has disjointed range to work with too. To put it simply, he is great no matter what you do to him.

Fox
Yeah, his defensive game sucks and his recovery sucks. So what? Fox lives on the offense and has potentially the best offensive game in B+. Combos everywhere, practically guaranteed kills, short hop double pew pew, one of the fastest characters in the game... he just overwhelms other characters through his shear speed and effectiveness. To put it simply his strengths outweigh the cons and then some.

Squirtle
Combo, combo, combo, combo, combo, get off stage, gimp. Sounds a lot like Charizard to me, but the key difference is that he takes punishment VERY hard where as Squirtle is a small, floaty target and difficult to combo. And talk about movement options: dash dancing, dash canceling and the small crawldash he is given thanks to dash canceling, shell shifting, hydroplaning, etc. He is quick and unpredictable, powerful feints, and to top it all off he has the Raphael texture. 'Nuff said.

Marth
Disjointed range... So much disjointed range. A well spaced Marth just shuts you down. Marth can be a bit of a touchy subject as his best options always seem to be nerfed a little too well. Plenty of overnerfs, and he still manages to be amazing despite his very poor recovery. Is he as good as he has been in previous builds? Far from it, and it might have actually gone too far in nerfing his best options but he is still a very dominant character.

Diddy Kong
So we all know what makes Diddy great in vBrawl. Bananas allow him to completely control the flow of the match for as long as he can keep them under his hands. Forced trips give him guaranteed combos, kills, and the ability to shut down any character on the ground. Even worse is the fact that B+ gives him the ability to function well even without bananas. In vBrawl he was just an average character without his bananas while in B+ he can still run circles around some characters with his amazing combo game. He can combo even without bananas up into the most ridiculous percents, and when he has bananas he can combo indefinitely until he is ready to kill you. Just be thankful that his kill options don't start killing until towards 150%.

Wario
He basically has everything a character could ever need to do well. He's very heavy, so with DI he isn't hitting the blastzone for a good while. He also has a great recovery so he isn't going to be in a situation where he can't make it back anytime soon. He is also very floaty so he isn't going to be combo'd heavily, or into finishers like the other characters in his weight class. He also has an amazing aerial game, above average ground game, and the ability to land some of the earliest kills in the game without relying on gimps. He even has a nice combo game to work with as well, and the ability to combo into finishers. He is heavily underplayed, heavily underrated, but extremely good.

Luigi
Weegee is very floaty, has a 3 frame Nair with freakish priority, and a great combo game to round it off. His Nair is great... it breaks combos, starts combos, combos into kill moves, and is a kill move itself. It's like an all purpose move and the only thing it's missing is range. His grab game is deadly being able to consistently combo even into high percents, and he has early kill potential. Though his early kills aren't reliable they will happen the moment the opponent slips. Another character that is often left forgotten, but maybe that's because not enough people have been ***** by Boss.

Snake
I honestly don't see why people don't put Snake up here. I don't think he is as good as he was in vBrawl but that doesn't do anything to stop him from excelling. He is hurt by combos but so is somebody like Fox (and even worse than Snake). The thing about Snake is that he (imo) has the best defensive game in B+, and a powerful offensive game as well. Grenades basically stop everything except red Pikmin, he has so many traps to tun the stage against you, and the best tilts in the game. It's even scarier to think that he even has combos. I think the best way to describe Snake is a defensive Fox. He just constantly keeps you from getting to him. Just wait until B+ gets its very own Ally.

Kirby
Land a grab at low percents, and just lay on some heavy damage. He won't combo for too long after that, so at that point he just gets you offstage and gimps you hard. Multiple jumps, Bair and Dair basically lets him shut down most characters except those who have recoveries as good as his. Unless you can just completely outrange Kirby expect him to give you a very hard time.

PrOlimar
Another extremely underrated character. His recovery is trash but his onstage game is absolutely AMAZING. His grab is retardedly good, and he has so many options out of his grab. And he camps harder than any other character except Falco (which is debatable). His Pikmin give him plenty of disjointed range, priority, and an excellent combo game. To make things even better is the fact that he is small and floaty making punishing him difficult. It honestly doesn't matter that his recovery is trash because that is the only thing keeping him balanced.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Falco is amazing. Anyone MM my falco

 

[Mr.-0]

I'm not gonna say anything any more. But yes, a general discussion thread sounds good

 

[Roxas215]

Falco is amazing. Anyone MM my falco

Says someone who can't beat kaylo's zelda. lmao.

Also if this is just a general discussion then u need to change the title of the topic before a mod comes in and lock it just off the name.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I can beat you all with Sonic, who is worse then both of your characters.

 

[matt4300]

That makes no sense. Every single char u listed has obvious flaws. Smash has and will always be a game of matchups.

When a char is leaps and bounds ahead of other chars(mk in vbrawl) then yes something is wrong. This is not the case in brawl+ However tiers have an will always exist. Anyone that thinks perfect balance is even possible let alone will happen is lying to themselves.

how does that make no sense? There pros outweigh there cons... thats why everyone agrees there some of the best. Yes, this is a game of matchups. Which means if a char has lots of favorable matchups then he is BETTER than the other chars. This is why nerfs and buffs are made. These chars suposedly have more favorable matchups then the rest of the cast.. sooo they are better. If we know they are better and we want a more balanced game they should be nerfed. I know that teirs will always exist, Ive been through this so many times since + started, but if we know for a fact wich chars are the best there should be something done to put them in with the chars we cant place (mid tier)

 

[Roxas215]

how does that make no sense? There pros outweigh there cons... thats why everyone agrees there some of the best. Yes, this is a game of matchups. Which means if a char has lots of favorable matchups then he is BETTER than the other chars. This is why nerfs and buffs are made. These chars supposedly have more favorable matchups then the rest of the cast.. sooo they are better. If we know they are better and we want a more balanced game they should be nerfed. I know that teirs will always exist, Ive been through this so many times since + started, but if we know for a fact wich chars are the best there should be something done to put them in with the chars we cant place (mid tier)

Your under the opinion that better means broken. So what if one char is better then the other. If the char is still beatable then nothing is wrong. Fact is chars are better then other chars based on their movesets.

MK=top tier based off of moveset alone
Yoshi=Bottom tier based off of moveset alone

See where I'm going with this?? All the buffs and nerf in the world wont change a char's moveset. Take falcon for example. When he was 1st buffed everyone was shouting top tier and the like. Although his buffs made him playable(and fun i might add) He still lacks priority and his weight makes him easily comboed. I honestly think falcon is still low tier. Does this mean we need to nerf other chars? No. This simply means the falcon player has to out play his opponent to win. There is nothing wrong with that.


I main peach. MK COMPLETELY ***** HIM and i don't think she is top 10. This don't mean i think chars who are top 10 should be nerfed.

Every char has flaws. Some more then others. In order for a lowered tiered char to win the player must be better. Thats how it's supposed to be.

 

[goodoldganon]

/not a rant,just an observation
If its so clear cut and easy to tell even at this stage who the best are( MK, Marth, Fox,Kirby,Luigi,Squirtle,Diddy,ZZS,Snake,Falco,Pika,Rob,shiek... ) and that everyone eles is in a big blurry mash... Don't these chars that are obviously better than the blurry mash need to be nerfed into the blur? Isnet that what balance is? I have personally heard no plans of nerfing diddy,zzs,falco or pika at all. I know for a fact that all the chars i mentioned will have more good matchups then the big blur. Looks like before this goes gold the plussery is gonna need to **** those chars or there will still only be 15 or so chars that are played at all. (don't kill me Shannus,cape,falco ect...)

No

There are reasons all around if you think from a more practical stance then a fictional world, no offense man. If you really want I'll check this topic after I brush my teeth and finish getting ready for bed, but the reasons are all already here, just gotta be logical.