Brawl+ Character Balance: Character 4: King DeDeDe

[goodoldganon]

Hello fellow Brawl+ players! Before we begin, those of us in the Backroom would like to thank all of you for you patience in updates, your vigor in testing the codesets, and your overall love of the project. The coders knowing that you guys are getting full enjoyment out of these codesets makes all the hard work the put into this project worthwhile.

Now, the Backroom would like to try a little experiment that should help us wrap up the last pieces of this project. With most of the actual new physics of Brawl+ in place and finalized we can finally sit down and work out the character balance.

This will be a thread used to discuss the characters that the community truly doesn't have much experience with as well as the characters we don't hear much about. In order to have a post that will be taken seriously, try and provide us with reasons why your buff will help that character. Here is an example.

WARIO

Let's speed up his D-tilt a little to give him more options on the approach, or at least a good ground one. The Stinky Finger poke has good range (for Wario), pokes low, and sets up to combos pretty well. Add that with dash dancing and canceling and we can give Wario a usable ground approach. Something he severely lacks.

We can debate whether Wario needs this buff or not at a later time, but hopefully you can see what kind of suggestions we are looking for.

Now it's time for our fourth character, the hammer wielding penguin, King DeDeDe. King DeDeDe is the tyrant king of Dream Land and the third character to be added from the Kirby series. King DeDeDe was a popular character in original Brawl thanks to his chaingrabs, infinites, and shieldgrab game. The infinites and chaingrabs have been removed in Brawl+, but sadly those were the crutches of DeDeDe's games.

DeDeDe, like all heavyweights, is easy to juggle and though the Waddle Dees do a mediocre job at stopping projectiles, he can still be easy to spam on. Though he lost the chaingrabs and infinites and he is now juggle-able, DeDeDe has received buffs from the physics changes in Brawl+. Momentum has given DeDeDe some aerial combo options and it has given him a decent Wall of Pain game. Also, he still has the longest shield grab in the game. Overall though, the mighty Penguin King of Dream Land has fallen from his placement in original Brawl.

So what do you, the community, think of King DeDeDe? Please keep the ideas constructive and the posts intelligent. We thank you for all your work and hope you guys can continue to support the project through these last few steps.

Stop by the IRC to test out any new Beta codesets! We love seeing you guys in the IRC chatting it up and offering feedback. Sadly, we have no tentative release date for Beta 4, but get pumped because it's gonna be big!

 

[CT Chia]

Even though DDD has lost a lot, he has gained a lot essentially from one new useful move: His up throw. His up throw is a great combo starter leading into strong aerial attacks. His up throw can even chain grab some characters at low percents. DDD definitely is no joke in Brawl+

Even though DDD isn't one of the best characters in the game anymore, there isn't too much that can be buffed about him to make him better in terms of his moves. Most of his moves are still fast strong hitters. The problem is how easily he gets combo'd being the big target he is, and I feel that he needs better options at sort of setting up a wall making it harder for his opponents to get through.

One idea I just had of how to do this would be to make his Over B throw faster. This limits other characters ground approaches more (and when they try to approach in the air DDD can still shut them down with his supreme aerials). While the waddle toss will never be an AMAZING move, it will be much better if it was quicker. However with making it faster is one main problem - Gordos. Besides the fact they are random and some people already hate them, making the overB even faster could make this pretty destructive. What if we sped up the OverB a lot (almost twice as fast maybe overall?), get rid of his ability to throw Gordos, then to compensate for the loss of Gordos, allow three waddles on the screen instead of two, and even out the ratio of waddle dees and waddle doos from whatever it is now to like 7:3 (out of every 10 throws he should throw approximately 7 dees and 3 doos)

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

my suggestions for DDD:

-increase the speed of his jab by a lot
-make it so that DDD doesn't auto grab a waddle with the A button
-allow 3 waddles on the screen
-make his neutral B have less wind down

 

[IC3R]

I'm gonna have to watch several videos before I can suggest anything, but I'll have something soon ~_~

EDIT :: Okay, maybe not, there is only one Beta3.3 video, and it's of DDD getting comboed to hell by Peach; that doen't really show much ~_~

It seems that the main suggestions will revolve around the Minion Toss...

 

[CT Chia]

-make it so that DDD doesn't auto grab a waddle with the A button

yes, this is also a great suggestions. make it so only the overB throws them (since itl rethrow them from the ground if im not mistaken like the a button)

 

[Roxas215]

. What if we sped up the OverB a lot (almost twice as fast maybe overall?), get rid of his ability to throw Gordos, then to compensate for the loss of Gordos, allow three waddles on the screen instead of two, and even out the ratio of waddle dees and waddle doos from whatever it is now to like 7:3 (out of every 10 throws he should throw approximately 7 dees and 3 doos)

The hell? Getting rid of Dedede's Gordo's is like getting rid of peach's bombs. It should never happen.


From the little playtime i had against dedede he did indeed get nerfed from how he is in normal brawl. However he still have good aerials. Although he is very suspect to combos. Especially against fast chars like peach and zss. Only thing i could think of to make dedede better is increase his jab.

 

[CT Chia]

The ratio for dee-doo-gordo is currently 35:10:4
Considerign there have already been plenty of sets in vBrawl decided with random Gordos, speeding the overB up twice as much would amount for even more Gordos. Maybe instead of taking them out, making the ratio like 30:10:1?

 

[Revven]

I think DDD needs a faster GTFO move. His Ftilt doesn't send far enough, his Bair is alright for it, and his Dtilt is pretty okay... I'd like to see its endlag sped up or make it come out faster. This way, he'd have a better GTFO move so he could then use his Waddle Dee toss right after or something.

Thoughts?

 

[GHNeko]

He could EASILY use more momentum. The way the guy moves on stage compared to in air is silly when his usefulness is in air and not on ground.

Also. Moar ALR.

 

[maticMan94]

I like the idea of giving him a faster jab. Something that I enjoyed with the older momentum codes was the rocket hammer. Increasing his air momentum would make that move more useful again. Overall I still think he's a pretty good character as he is.

 

[1048576]

Homogenizing is bad, IMO. He doesn't need aerial momentum. Stronger bthrow, perhaps. More waddle dees on screen at once if itspossible. After that, I don't think he needs additional buffs.

 

[GHNeko]

Homogenizing is bad, IMO. He doesn't need aerial momentum. Stronger bthrow, perhaps. More waddle dees on screen at once if itspossible. After that, I don't think he needs additional buffs.

Considering all characters have momentum, he'd be getting more momentum then standard. The momentum he has suuuckks.

I also vote for stronger b/fthrow.

 

[Team Giza]

make it so that DDD doesn't auto grab a waddle with the A button
allow 3 waddles on the screen

These would really help him out a lot!

Perhaps make Dedede's down+B have a bit less winddown.

If we can mess around with throws eventually I would suggest buffing the knockback on the forward throw as well as increasing the vertical knockback on the downthrow (slightly). A slight increased knockback on the downthrow would make follow ups better and even have the possibility of chainthrowing again (also they would be able to DI). The chainthrow could also be put back in by weakening the knockback of the downthrow but chaining its angle (so that he wouldn't have infinites on Samus and the other) but then wall infinities would still exist.

 

[luvs2pluck]

we can change the KB of throws now Im pretty sure, but can we change the trajectories yet? I think a great buff would be to increase the KB of Bthrow and chagne the trajectory to a almost semi-spike.

This would allow DDD to get kills easier (since Utilt was nerfed a slight bit through gravity) by shield grabbing with his back to the edge and Bthrowing. If the throw didnt kill the opponent, then he would still have a great challenge making it back to the stage with the walls of Bairs coming at him.

 

[Ulevo]

my suggestions for DDD:

-increase the speed of his jab by a lot
-make it so that DDD doesn't auto grab a waddle with the A button
-allow 3 waddles on the screen
-make his neutral B have less wind down

Jiang so far has had the best suggestions.

His jab needs to be sped up simply because the new mechanics have dismantled its previous uses. It needs to be fixed. The waddles hamper his ability on the ground, and that alone should be considered to be removed for that reason alone. Three waddles on screen would help him out against projectile spam, something he isn't overly strong against. Less cool down on the Inhale is a random buff, but it is a good suggestion.

Another decent idea would be to decrease the start up of his Dsmash. Currently it acts as a combo move, however it can be difficult to land. Decreasing the start up and cool down of his Jet Hammer is another option to consider.

 

[CloneHat]

Just want to point out, the Bowser fsmash buff lets him kill at 0% fully charged.
Dedede's hammer is slower, riskier, and weaker.

 

[Adetque]

Make his d-tilt have more hitstun and knock characters strait up.

 

[:034:]

- More ALR
- Faster jabs
- More knockback on fthrow (bthrow already does a crazy 16%, seriously what?)
- More momentum
- NO AUTOGRABBING WADDLES
- Faster ftilt
- Faster pummel, or a more damaging one
- If possible, change dthrow's trajectory so that the opponents go up

DDD isn't as good as he once was, since his whole game resolved mostly around chaingrabs... He still has a really high-range grab, and I think we should keep it. Making his fthrow more damaging and changing the trajectory of dthrow should do the trick as for throws, and giving him a faster pummel helps him lay on a bit more damage. He really is a character that uses grabs A LOT so why change that...

Another gripe is that DDD's aerial options are a bit low. Bair is good, but the rest is just sub-par. Giving him less lag on landing lag should definitely help him (and maybe combo it up a little). More momentum will help a little with aerial approaches as well.

Erm, I don't play Triple Dee that much... He's always felt very awkward for me (and a character almost completely relying on chaingrabs is just **** gay).

Oh, I don't think he needs more than two Waddles. Instead, I think giving him the option of throwing them farther would be a lot better.

 

[Teronist09]

I think ftilt should get more knockback (and possibly a speedup if it needed, I don't think it would be necessary), it seems like it should be his gtfo move, but it doesn't really do much for him that I could tell.
Making Jet Hammer faster or stronger would also be nice, as well.

 

[goodoldganon]

Why should D3 be the only heavy weight that is tougher to spam on? The Waddle Dees do a decent job at stopping projectiles. I'd imagine a 3rd Waddle Dee could make a wall that most projectiles couldn't get through. What are D3s strengths that separate him from the other heavy weights?

1. The ability to WoP.
2. His shield grab game.
3. Multiple jumps

Since affecting the jumps would probably be an impossibility I'd concentrate on 1 and 2. The ability to combo out of his throws and set-up a WoP would keep him unique from the heavyweights. I'm no D3 main, but I think he is decent. He could use some work, but lets try and keep him unique.

 

[ph00tbag]

The ratio for dee-doo-gordo is currently 35:10:4
Considerign there have already been plenty of sets in vBrawl decided with random Gordos, speeding the overB up twice as much would amount for even more Gordos. Maybe instead of taking them out, making the ratio like 30:10:1?

Getting rid of Gordos should be out of the question. My stance in this has always been to preserve the character's unique qualities above all else, and the Gordos, as gay as they are, are ultimately unique and rather comical. I'd prefer just to drop the ratio for Gordos, and maybe raise the ratio for doos.

 

[Swordplay]

I completly agree with jiangs analysis and have therefore come up with my own suggestions.

I think D3 should be ALL ABOUT THE MINIONS. and play a defensive and gimp game.

1. D3 should not throw them when you press A.
2. Allow 3-4 minions on screen.
3. I'd argue to take out waddle dees. You should have to fight his minions I'd argue for a (9:1 or 8:2) waddle doo gordo ratio. Waddle Dee's just take up space and cause little interference.
4. IF not 3 then reduce the ratio Dee's come out to something like (5:4:1) or (4:4:2)
5. D3 has always been about the grab game with his grab range but sheild stun hurt his shield grab. I would suggest lowering D3's shield stun.
6. Make a few of his A moves including jab a little bit faster

Edit: Ya, I understand they me be a little excessive but I think I'm heading in the right direction. Ultimately its the Broom decision to decide what to improve. I'm just posting the suggestions

 

[Cowbox]

Although I think Swordplay's suggestions about his minions may be a little excessive, I would love to try it out and see how he works that way.

 

[snipeshow]

I don't know if you could even do this (probably not) but i think making the waddles more aggressive, attacking the enemy more, would be really cool.

 

[Blank Mauser]

After playing with D3 a lot in B+ the two moves whose purposes I definitely do not want changed are Ftilt and Dthrow. Ftilt has set up for some decent things before, wouldn't want it to be his gtfo move. If anything I would rather have his jab be that. I also would rather keep Dthrow setting up for techchases rather than sending people up.

If you did want to buff Ftilt, I would say a good way would be to either make it setup for techchases at more percents, or lower the cooldown lag on it so D3 can have more follow-ups to it. Its extremely useful when DC'ed for techchasing, but its range doesn't cover him much so it wouldn't be spammable with less lag.

Seeing as a lot of vertical kill moves are being buffed to compensate for gravity, I'd say Utilt would be pretty deserving. It comes out fast, but has very situational uses considering its range.

I kind of wish his Nair had less lag. Its not a very useful aerial.

It'd be cool if waddle dees hitboxes had cape-like effects or something lol. Flower or stun even maybe? They're really hard to hit with and were really only co-operative with his Dthrow chaingrab allowing him to move people into it before.

Edit: I would also like Dtilt to stay as a decent kill move rather than combo'er also.

 

[Shell]

Seeing as a lot of vertical kill moves are being buffed to compensate for gravity, I'd say Utilt would be pretty deserving. It comes out fast, but has very situational uses considering its range.

Edit: I would also like Dtilt to stay as a decent kill move rather than combo'er also.

First, I was talking to Shanus and he kindly pointed out that the differences in vertical kill percents is only 3-5% against most characters, less for some, more for Falcon. This is not a terribly significant number (mostly Placebo Effect) but if that difference is hurting Dedede and/or he's bad enough and it would be a good fix, then we could take a look at this.

Also, through the magic of low initial KB and high growth the D-tilt could be both a set-up at low-mid percents and a kill move at killin' percents, if that's what we really wanted.

I don't play much DDD at all, but I like the idea of giving him lots of grab options to expand on his lost chaingrab and metagame. This would make vanilla DDDs a little more comfortable at switching, I think.

 

[Shiken]

I see alot of good suggestions here and there, I really think having 3 minions, possibly lowering the dee ratio to allow more doo's and gordos would eb great, but ONLY if we can take out the auto throw by A, otherwise more minions will only hurt dedede.
In addition, if we could take out the ability to inhale them, that would also be great, altho probably impossible. Rather, if we CAN inhale them, how about they heal d3 for a small 2 or 3%? alternately, let us star shot using the minions! i know both of those are probably impossible but itd be great if you could.
more knockback on fthrow is pretty needed, as its not a great throw, i only use it when i know my opponent is gonna DI expecting a bthrow, but due to its strength, it really doesnt make much difference even if they DI wrong. As for uthrow, i think it should toss them up just a bit lower than it currently does, at mid or high %, i can reach most characters barely with an uair but usually not the kb hit.
any and all buffs to jet hammer would be great, i love an excuse to use that move. Maybe we could speed up his fsmash a bit? at least as fast as ike's? even if it reaches the same speed, it's less useful overall since you need to hit with the hammer, not the shaft or the shockwave to really do anything, as well as it needing to be in the later part of the attack animation, hitting them at the top of the swing doesnt do much either. I also agree with a faster dsmash, or maybe extending the hitbox range on it just a bit horizontally. utilt range could use a bit of horizontal boost too.

Another very small suggestion, can we boost the power of his star shot some? it seems silly that him and kirby deal the exact same damage by using starshot when d3 only has that option, instead of choosing a power or shot. on the subject of inhale, d3's inhale should NOT lose to wario's bite, just look at the difference in mouth size! xD

 

[Deleted member]

Suggestions on his minion throw:
Make the chance of Waddle Dees to appear 0, change doo:gordo ratio to something like turnip:bob-omb, allow three minions on-screen.

Make the chance of Gordos to appear 0, Minion throw always follows a pattern, like Waddle Dee, Waddle Doo, Waddle Dee, Waddle Dee, etc. and allow for two Doos and two Dees on screen.

Make the chance of Waddle Doos and Gordos to appear 0, Allow 5 or 6 Dees on screen.

Of course, if any of these suggestions are taken, no inhaling (or heal inhaling) and no grabbing with attack button are a must.

 

[CT Chia]

why do ppl want dees out? theyr good for being on stage to make a wall and stop projectiles. i still think making his overB faster, allowing 3 minions on screen, and making the ratio something like 30:10:1 would be awesome

 

[supersonicridley]

I know what to do.

Make his Down B Always charged whenever you use it, and speed it up 8 times as fast.

but seriously, speeding up over B and making 3 out at once and reducing the humber of gordos would do the trick

 

[Arcade]

why do ppl want dees out? theyr good for being on stage to make a wall and stop projectiles. i still think making his overB faster, allowing 3 minions on screen, and making the ratio something like 30:10:1 would be awesome

I agree with this.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

ALR

Slight momentum increase

Decrease the KB of dthrow for better tech chasing, and decrease the KB of upthrow to actually allow combos.

That's all I think he needs right now. More Waddle Dees in stage seems sort of... too much in my mind.

 

[Zelc]

What about giving DDD a faster grab release recovery? This could preserve his grab-happy game as well as give him some interesting mind games (dash attacks to punish spotdodges).

 

[Swordplay]

why do ppl want dees out? theyr good for being on stage to make a wall and stop projectiles. i still think making his overB faster, allowing 3 minions on screen, and making the ratio something like 30:10:1 would be awesome

Doos do the exact same thing plus they pose a onstage threat. If D3 only threw doos and gordos I think it would really help him.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Doos do the exact same thing plus they pose a onstage threat. If D3 only threw doos and gordos I think it would really help him.

Of course it would, it would also make his projectile game extremely broken, I don't want gordos that can kill at 80% and doos that can easily zap you for 20% and get you into DDD's awaiting hands.

Dees are necessary.

 

[Shiken]

yeah uthrow and dthrow kb should be lowered, and perhaps raise bthrow and fthrow, or at least fthrow

 

[Swordplay]

Of course it would, it would also make his projectile game extremely broken, I don't want gordos that can kill at 80% and doos that can easily zap you for 20% and get you into DDD's awaiting hands.

Dees are necessary.

Exactly, Doos are useful and Dee's are not. D3 was so reliable on his grabs that you have to buff something. All doos and gordos (9:1) present an awesome defensive game and doos give the opportunity with stun to go on offense at the right time. They can either stun opponents or put them in a bad position as they avoid them. With Dees. I can just walk threw them at my pleasure and **** D3.

And it would not make him broken. You want to see broken projectiles go see Sir camp-o-lot Toon Link. I bet you Toon Link possibly Link, and a few other characters like ROB Samus maybe can still outspam D3. They all got plenty of projectiles and zair while ROB has a laser that goes threw anything and a crazy gyro with glide toss.

 

[Ulevo]

yeah uthrow and dthrow kb should be lowered, and perhaps raise bthrow and fthrow, or at least fthrow

No. Dthrow is necessary for tech chases at the moment, and lowering Uthrow would give him another CG.

 

[Problem2]

So everyone is cool with Waddle Doos everyone taking up field space with their decent sized hitboxes? I'm all for changing the ratio, but I think that Dees should still show up and be the most common Waddle. 30:10:1 is perfect.

 

[GHNeko]

Dees should be more aggresive. They should pounce every chance possible. Same for the Doos.

Speed up the Dee's animation. Give more KB to their attacks as well.


Rather than take out the Dees. Make them actually useful.