Brawl Back Room Updates

[_Kain_]

@ Zigsta, I'm not unhappy with the numbers and its not that i disagree with how you all feel about the matchups. I could agree with every number on that chart and I would still feel that chart is useful to anyone already part of the community.

BBR: Fox vs MK is -1
me:why?
BBR:thats classified
me: ><

Here is a good project for the BBR that all of the members can get involved in.

Take the application you use to judge people outside the BBR and fill it out yourself. How about all of you telling us why you would be in the BBR. Then we can tell you how you measure up. I'd love to see your resumes.

Except the next version is going to have write ups for most MU's if I recall correctly so you won't have anything to complain about for the next one

And what? That makes no sense??? You should walk into a job and ask your employer for his resume. Hope he fires your ***

 

[Stealth Raptor]

not really the place for this

 

[Alacion]

Matchup writeups even for somebody like Zelda!?

 

[Deleted member]

Take the application you use to judge people outside the BBR and fill it out yourself. How about all of you telling us why you would be in the BBR. Then we can tell you how you measure up. I'd love to see your resumes.

Were you at least satisfied that this application let people say what they thought about the BBR?

Better yet, what would your criteria be to join the BBR? Anything different?

 

[the melon!!!!!]

Just so you guys know, your new representative M@v is not just gonna be speaking for himself now that he's in the BBR. His role as the Advertising/PR Representative of Global Enterprises will continue on into the BBR, and on several occasions his opinion may be that of the entire company and that of our glorious leader. There may also be the opinions of a drunken grandpa named Umbra, but those are mainly for comic relief. We are happy that you have accepted our offer to expand in your territory, and hope for further infiltration of your fine group in the future! :D


Sincerely,

Melon, crew grunt/low tier *****.

 

[_Kain_]

Matchup writeups even for somebody like Zelda!?

She had players that were discussing for her, I would assume so. Even so the other character on the other side of the MU would be able to make a writeup.

The only problem I could see with this chart is probably bias in some sorts, like the posts before are stating, but I think it's alot more accurate then it's previous one.

 

[Alacion]

Hey that's really cool. Looking forward to it!

 

[DeLux]

DeLux: It should go without saying that you should try to look good in your application, without it being explicitly mentioned. If you're in a job interview you're not going to troll whomever is in front of you, even if you know you're qualified. When I first saw it I honestly didn't know what to make of it and it rubbed several people the wrong way. It basically gave off the message that you're supposedly too good to go through the process like everyone else and it just doesn't work that way.

I understand what you're saying Marc, but that was exactly the point of the application. It's more or less proven that the process is at some level politically based and isn't truly measured in terms of objective values (which is what the principles are their to promote). When doing applications for the Smash Lab, there have been people that I've positively HATED from interacting with them on the boards, yet if they merit consideration, they get into the group. When we've done URC voting on admittance, there have been instances where I've subordinated my opinions on people for the sake of the guiding principles of the URC as a way to depoliticize things. I guess I can be satisfied that I was unable to meet criteria seven of the principles (being willing to follow), which disqualifies me from the BBR. But given my personality, that is unlikely to change at any point in time and ultimately means I will never get into the BBR.


I'll be honest, infractions by in large should only be an issue dealt with by staff. Using them as a criteria of weighing "positive reflection" is a poor litmus test. Plenty of people that reflect positively on the community receive infractions. Plenty of people that reflect negatively don't. Infractions are a staff issue and I would think revealing that information about a person's infraction history is against site policy even if advances quelling public objections. In the absence of a site specific scale of keeping order in check, certain members are overwhelmingly qualified based on the principles outlined as being supported. So while I agree I don't deserve membership, Player-1 and Illmatic should have been admitted.

 

[_umbra_]

Good job mav, now stop banning everything I love

 

[Tesh]

I mean... fair enough lol. That's why we're trying to get some write-ups done for matchups that are being rediscussed, but honestly there aren't many coming out because people are busy and maybe a lack of motivation for some, idk. Not the best of answers, but it's the truth. Releasing the discussion threads would be... better in theory than in practice imo, unfortunately :/ On those that have been doing great things for the community, I don't think their BBR membership would effect their contributions to the Smash scene. If they're let in, it'll help out the BBR as an organization overall, but we're still making more of an effort to communicate with those outside the group imo, idk.

On the MU panels and all, I'll talk more about that once it's actually released, but... easier said than done, by a long shot. :/ serious props to Marc for sticking with all of this. I agree that everything should come with a write-up, but there are activity issues hardcore.

So...you have people in the BBR that don't care? Kick them out!
People aren't active? Kick them out!

I guarantee you releasing some sort of summary or high level discussion is better than releasing a number and leaving it at that. Even for people that will disagree with the result no matter what, it lets them see your perspective. Even if they think its flawed. Secrecy only lets the BBR pretend they know things we don't. If you want to actually help the community, then teach the community.

Were you at least satisfied that this application let people say what they thought about the BBR?

Better yet, what would your criteria be to join the BBR? Anything different?

I don't really care what their criteria is, but they should be held to the same standard they ask of new applicants. If all 75 of those people filled out the application and showed it to us, I doubt all of them would look more impressive than Delux, Illmatic, Auspher or P-1.

 

[Zigsta]

@ Zigsta, I'm not unhappy with the numbers and its not that i disagree with how you all feel about the matchups. I could agree with every number on that chart and I would still feel that chart is useful to anyone already part of the community.

BBR: Fox vs MK is -1
me:why?
BBR:thats classified
me: ><

Totally agree with you. This has been brought up right when this new version began.

Here is a good project for the BBR that all of the members can get involved in.

Take the application you use to judge people outside the BBR and fill it out yourself. How about all of you telling us why you would be in the BBR. Then we can tell you how you measure up. I'd love to see your resumes.

This sounds good in theory, but the hardest part would be actually getting people to DO this in the first place. If members in question aren't productive or helpful in your mind, then why would they sit down and type up a Smash resume to prove their worth?

In my mind, that would be an unnecessary step backwards. Like you said earlier, members are judged by the community by how helpful they are to the community--so they should put their time in to helping the community via projects, not proving why they should help when they're already in the group to begin with.

Before I joined the BBR, there were a handful of names I didn't recognize, and I questioned why they were in the BBR, even when talented, known yet inactive players like Fiction and Cyphus were booted due to inactivity. I can assure you, though, that these guys are quite active and are GREAT debaters to boot. Other times people will honestly just be too busy with their personal lives to help much if at all with certain projects. I for example had one busy summer and hardly contributed at all to the stage project. Keeping track of who's helped out with what project and then releasing those lists doesn't help anyone, though. Players who are inactive yet still want to help the community will either find a way or explain their reasonings for inactivity, while players who are simply inactive and don't care to help get booted in time.

That all said and done, we definitely appreciate your input on new projects. It's something we've been discussing, especially after the creation of the URC.

 

[Tesh]

They won't do it? Even if some authority in the BBR says "fill out this form or gtfo"? Well kick em out.

I'm asking you all to run for re-election here. You can't just get in once and start slacking off.

I'm asking every individual in the BBR "What have you done lately?".

 

[Zigsta]

In my opinion, there's no need to force every player to prove why they're in the BBR. Regardless of how the public as a whole feels about our organization, I feel everyone back here at the moment is plenty qualified and deserving. Forcing them to fill out forms is frankly a waste of time and potentially insulting.

 

[Tesh]

In my opinion, there's no need to force every player to prove why they're in the BBR. Regardless of how the public as a whole feels about our organization, I feel everyone back here at the moment is plenty qualified and deserving. Forcing them to fill out forms is frankly a waste of time and potentially insulting.

Thats a good one. I'm gonna e-mail this post to Barack Obama and his re-election campaign next year can be based around "I got elected once, what more proof do you need?"

 

[Zigsta]

The difference between Barack Obama and the BBR is the President has a term limit.

 

[_Kain_]

Thats a good one. I'm gonna e-mail this post to Barack Obama and his re-election campaign next year can be based around "I got elected once, what more proof do you need?"

This isn't the government.

Plus nothing satisfies you, even if they did that I bet you would find another reason to complain.

 

[Deleted member]

While I disagree that everyone in the BBR needs to fill out an application again, I do think that after members have been inactive for an extended period of time, they should be booted. Why keep those around who don't contribute?

That period of time should be noted in the BBR's policy.

 

[Tesh]

The difference between Barack Obama and the BBR is the President has a term limit.

Term limits are a good thing. Thats why the non-******** parts of the world don't have emperors or kings that get to run **** for the rest of their lives.

This isn't the government.

Plus nothing satisfies you, even if they did that I bet you would find another reason to complain.

I guess the BBR will never know how people react to a job well done...

...unless.

 

[z00ted]

Xyro has been admitted into the BBR before and he is FAR worse when it comes to infraction points / trolling than I am. He had the same amount of permanent infraction points as I currently have, yet he still was admitted.

Back then, it didn't seem like behavior was that big of an issue as long as you were active in the group.

What's the difference of being banned (for a short period of time) to being inactive?

Marc as well as the others, why would you not let someone in to the Back Room who has strong credentials because of their behavior (which realistically would at worst keep them inactive to the discussion for a very brief period of time), but allow an inactive member stay in if they rarely contribute at all?

Very hypocritical, in my opinion.

I would rather have a resource with it's flaws compared to no resource at all.
And that's exactly why you KEEP in the inactive players, you value them as a resource.

 

[Nike.]

Ironically, he was purged from the BBR for that exact reason.

 

[Tesh]

Xyro has been admitted into the BBR before and he is FAR worse when it comes to infraction points / trolling than I am. He had the same amount of permanent infraction points as I currently have, yet he still was admitted.

Back then, it didn't seem like behavior was that big of an issue as long as you were active in the group.

What's the difference of being banned (for a short period of time) to being inactive?

Marc as well as the others, why would you not let someone in to the Back Room who has strong credentials because of their behavior (which realistically would at worst keep them inactive to the discussion for a very brief period of time), but allow an inactive member stay in if they rarely contribute at all?

Very hypocritical, in my opinion.

Being well behaved is all they have left. Xyro isn't in the BBR anymore but...

Ironically, he was purged from from the BBR for that exact reason.

...now he is part of a group that actually does something for the community.

 

[_Kain_]

Term limits are a good thing. Thats why the non-******** parts of the world don't have emperors or kings that get to run **** for the rest of their lives.

I guess the BBR will never know how people react to a job well done...

...unless.

Your kind of arguing a moot point, since you have a tendency and history to only complain and be negative about most things, in essence, why should we be trying to accomodate to one person over a group? BBR still does useful stuff believe it or not, and it's members are also known for having contributed somehow to the community also.

Illmatic and Player-1 on the otherhand have a case for arguing.

 

[Nike.]

But they aren't affiliated with the BBR.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

Being well behaved is all they have left. Xyro isn't in the BBR anymore but...


...now he is part of a group that actually does something for the community.

Girl Scouts??

 

[Deleted member]

...now he is part of a group that actually does something for the community.

If you truly feel that way, then why not work to become a part of that group instead of this one? If you make it, put in a good word for Norfair. :3

 

[z00ted]

Ironically, he was purged from the BBR for that exact reason.

It's not only Xyro, and that's not main point I was really trying to get across...

 

[BPx]

yo, can i b in the bbr br0s?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Being well behaved is all they have left. Xyro isn't in the BBR anymore but...


...now he is part of a group that actually does something for the community.

forcing people to conform to bad rules that cater to bad players who wont learm matchups? yeah its really doing a lot for our community right now

 

[Tesh]

Your kind of arguing a moot point, since you have a tendency and history to only complain and be negative about most things, in essence, why should we be trying to accomodate to one person over a group? BBR still does useful stuff believe it or not, and it's members are also known for having contributed somehow to the community also.

Illmatic and Player-1 on the otherhand have a case for arguing.

You don't have to accommodate me. I think I have a valid point regardless of my history or tendency. You can say I'm negative or point out my trolling, but in my opinion its just a cheap way to discredit concerns you can't answer.

Again, I'll let Obama know that all he has to is call his voters a bunch of whiners that won't ever be satisfied. You say I'm one person, but how much feedback do you even get? Am I really outnumbered by people that are impressed or even satisfied with the accomplishments of the BBR.

How about some examples of useful stuff the BBR does? And don't give me things that single members have done. I wanna know what this GROUP does.

 

[Nike.]

I thought Marc answered everything here quite nicely already

Illmatic: You have 12 pages of infractions, of which 3 as recent as last month. Altogether it is a lot and if you keep it up you will run into a situation where you have so many permanent points that every new infraction will get you at least temp banned. That's neither practical nor desirable for someone in an elevated user group. This doesn't mean you can never make it in, but you absolutely have to stop getting infracted, it's that simple. Apparently your fun on the boards consistently breaks website rules, so you'll have to make a choice at some point. You have several good qualities, but it's not going to work if you need to be moderated that much in public.

Tesh: If talking is useless, why are you even on the boards and why do you have more than 5000 posts after a mere 3 years? X_X I see a lot of *****ing, but no solutions or criticism that is actually constructive.

DeLux: It should go without saying that you should try to look good in your application, without it being explicitly mentioned. If you're in a job interview you're not going to troll whomever is in front of you, even if you know you're qualified. When I first saw it I honestly didn't know what to make of it and it rubbed several people the wrong way. It basically gave off the message that you're supposedly too good to go through the process like everyone else and it just doesn't work that way.

Ish: I can't speak for other people, but regardless of other projects I read every letter of every application.

 

[z00ted]

I thought Marc answered everything here quite nicely already

I'm not questioning why I didn't get in. I already know why, and it's pretty apparent that I have already tried relieving this problem. And if it's not apparent to the leaders of the BBR, I'm going to try to fix the problem for when I apply again.

What I'm questioning is why the rule is in place... especially when considering the so called "activity" in other members.

 

[Nike.]

Wait, your asking: Why is the rule (I guess as far as conduct) in place?

I'm confused by your remark with "activity", because activity and forum conduct are completely different. The BBR purges members for inactivity (you may have noticed some members aren't members anymore, like Dojo).

 

[Ishiey]

So...you have people in the BBR that don't care? Kick them out!
People aren't active? Kick them out!

I guarantee you releasing some sort of summary or high level discussion is better than releasing a number and leaving it at that. Even for people that will disagree with the result no matter what, it lets them see your perspective. Even if they think its flawed. Secrecy only lets the BBR pretend they know things we don't. If you want to actually help the community, then teach the community.

I wouldn't necessarily say they don't care, but if there are members that don't care or have serious inactivity, I agree that they should be removed (and in most cases they are). It's really an issue with the panels though, because it's such a long project that people go into it without realizing the extent of commitment required, then end up dropping out because we all have lives to lead outside of Smash. Some characters also don't have a large base of active and knowledgeable players on SWF, idk, it really is a lot easier said than done :/

I agree with your second point overall, but there are some moderation issues with that imo. Also agreeing with how people shouldn't just get in and have that safety net, but tbh I don't think that's too much of an issue as Zigsta said.

As much as I'd love to stay and attempt to answer questions, I'm too bad at being focused to keep up and have other things I must get to. Guess I've already said everything I really had to say, so not going to repeat myself, but I'll be keeping up with this thread and will consider the feedback to see if the same "issues" can be avoided next round.

 

[DeLux]

I thought educating the community was the job of the Smash Lab...

 

[z00ted]

Wait, your asking: Why is the rule (I guess as far as conduct) in place?

I'm confused by your remark with "activity", because activity and forum conduct are completely different. The BBR purges members for inactivity (you may have noticed some members aren't members anymore, like Dojo).

Most bans are lifted after a week period.
At most a two week period.

Does the BBR kick members who are inactive for a measly two weeks, at most?
Being inactive, is essentially the same thing as being banned. In both cases you do not post in the back room. So why punish one intensively, while leaving the other with more leeway?

Come to think of it, Poltergust has been inactive for a VERY long time.
Why is he still in the BBR?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I didn't know everyone thought i was that big of a troll O.o

 

[Zigsta]

Polt will definitely be kicked out if he continues to prioritize Marvel over his BBR duties.

 

[z00ted]

I'm not trying to get ANYONE kicked out of the BBR.
Like I said, I would rather value having a resource than no resource at all.

I just think the rules regarding inactivity and behavior are pretty silly and unnecessary. As well as the fact that the BBR is hypocritical when it comes to weighing the two.

Like you said Zigsta, the people were admitted in the FIRST place for a reason. When they post as long as it's considerable shouldn't really be an issue.

Furthermore, there is no real rule stating in the BBR application thread that behavior will be taken into consideration. And please don't give me the weak and loosely interpretative "positive reflection on X member's community" claim.

No one has really given me any response to my questions yet either... lol

 

[Espy Rose]

Illmatic, stop treating bans and infractions like minor nuances to SWF membership. They're quite a big deal. The fact that you constantly regain them, while also assuring the BBR members in here that you can micromanage your infraction points, is by itself an indication of your disregard for the procedures on the website.

Having a sense of civility is one of the many traits the panel looks for in new recruits.

 

[Nike.]

While I'm not sure if it's true or not (I guess you can ask Marc/Shaya/AZ), but I heard a year or two ago that banned accounts aren't allowed back in. I think that was why Inui and Xyro weren't able to join again in 2009. SAM can correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Your still trying to compare overall activity and conduct. They are not the same. Becoming banned, no matter the length of time, is a violation of forum policies, a big no-no as far as the BBR. Periods of not posting in the BBR (as long as a typical ban) aren't as bad for obv reasons.

Polt became inactive (ironically after becoming the Mod of the Yoshi boards), yes. He's clearly a perfect example of extreme inactivity. I wouldn't be surprised if he is removed during the next purge.