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Brawl and Tekken4: A Small Read

DFat2

Smash Journeyman
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So I take it you play melee then? You do? Then why are you discussing whether or not MK warrants a ban? If you dont, why are you suggesting melee in the first place?

then again where are the actually statistics of brawl tournaments and how many people quit do you know?
So, you mean to tell me that, if I take the time to survey everyone that has played and quit brawl within a reasonable playing career, you can honestly say that you're mind will change completely and you'll be pro ban?

I could bring you a Personal live recorded interview with every player that quit brawl within a reasonable tourney playing time, and still, someone would bring up another random fact that would be impossible to document and the discussion would find a new place to go to.

Like where is the proof the game is dying slowly
^^^ Reply is Above^^^

i see some possibilties everyone right now is butthurt over pound4 "omg so much MK"
You'd be butthurt too if you'd paid $600.00 usdollaz to get Geyed. (nothing personal metagey's). Don't try to imagine how people would feel unless you'd walked in their shoes...and be geyed like they did.

well you guys obviously haven't seen some SF tournaments then or some tekken
Kasht said:
I know my s***
He does, and even more when it comes to REAL fighting games, anyway's. When he gave examples about Tekken 4, 5, 5: DR and 6 (if you actually bothered to read anything and didn't just started to quote what the last person of the thread suggested), he was actually speaking from experience when it came to it.

where high tier is mostly supreme
I don't think you're at a position to say what does and doesn't go on in SF. It has more history than Brawl and Melee combined.

thats one problem alot people in brawl have is they aren't using tournament effienent characters and pick zelda who has a 20-80 MU against MK and wonder why they can't place high
If that was a Hypothetical example, it was terrible. No one in Pound used Zelda to My knowledge's extent. They did Pick K DDD, Wario, Falco, Kirby and others. The Fact that neither of them placed top 10 is a whole different story.

thats why i knew if i was going to advance in the tournament scene i made some research and got a smart counterpick character of snake.
Ur not D only 1. Every one's found a counterpick for most characters that give theirs bad match ups: MK. That's part of the main problem. He's a solution for most problems, but that's questionable because, he doesn't have a counter or bad match up as is. When realizing that is when the thought of "why not just main him" kicks in and there's another MK on the bandwagon.

As far as beating MK the only problem i see it for is the mediocore wifi players or whatever first tournament attenders that really have trouble with that matchup but its not even that matchup how much you wanna bet you put them against some advance falcos and Warios the same outcome might come its a very matchup intensive game by what i feel and i'm sure players are going to get frusterated (i sure as hell did you prolly even have seen me walk outside get something to drink to cool off whatever) but thats me learning right there i'm not going to blood cross it and give up on it (inb4 bloodcross<3)
You're talking about early stages of playing; the learning stages; WI FI (lolwut?). Pound and many other OoS tournaments are more serious tha those examples, because there's more at state/there are more sacrifices involved to able to attend them. Try and multiply your previous frustrations x10 and the result might be what the metaplanked pound victims might feel lol.

but people gotta put in that dedication to reach that top status and also thats in part where we as a community definitally let him know yeah well we can help you out and show you to a good time at the tournament venue and help that person overall have a better time at the tournament environment which is why i try to be very social (or going to try to be especially more) to new people and definitally let em know that yeah you know we all were there frusterated and learning but theres way around it.
Many people dedicated and practiced and tried and lost. Not just PR players, but many US players as well (for the most part).

by the by, it's real easy to ask for concrete evidence for our arguments and demand the counting of heads to found YOUR arguments, which are that he doesn't warrant a ban beacause he hasn't won a certain amount of tournaments or because he's actually beatable, but how about the anti banners show evidence as well. This isn't a one way street.
CommonAntibanLudocrismz said:
Pics or it didn't happen
That's all where getting. Crockpot Theories and scrubish thoughts. Which leads me to believe that most antibaners do it for the lulz.

Mk is beatable
Pics or it didn't happen (how is he beatable[not who beat who, but how])

and the tournament attendance so far is pretty **** good unless you can prove me otherwise wrong with real data
Don't be lazy and search for it yourself. Why do we have to show you real concrete cyber data to show you where right, but you can barge in sayin whatever you want not expecting to be asked to do the same? wtf? Give us Data on how atendance is pretty **** good why don't you?

i just go by tournament results i see every week i may be like 4-5 months behind but so far we started the new year straight ma doo
You'd be surprised on what 4-5 months can do. As far as I'm concerned, 2009 didn't end in August.

its only been 2 years so far we still got some time to see something happen
Honestly, this point was valid into, I don't know, like 5 or 6 months brawl in. Maaaybe at One year Old. But it's been 2 Complete Years and He's STILL questionable for a ban. There hasn't been a counter character or Tech Found; He still dominates every one in the game by a reasonable margin. What does he need, a personal wavedash to convince every one?

With brawls mechanics, I highly doubt that anything game-changing would be found that would make him less Powerful. Whether it be 5 months or 5 years, it wouldn't make much of a difference to be frank. The difference would be the minds of the players at best, but not the game or the character itself.

Yo bro Melee's been out way more than many competitive fighters and its STILL changing now we can enjoy all the fun of puff dittos in the grand finals but i'd love to see your stand point 2 years in melee
Yo Bro, Street Fighter franchise has been out way more than Melee and other competitive fighters and its STILL changing now we can enjoy all the fun of Ryu Dittos in the grand finals but I'd love to see your stand point 2 years in SF.

I can use SF to counter ur game too? No. Why? Because they're different games.

And correct me if I'm mistaken, but Wavedash was discovered 2 years in if my memory does not serve me wrong. But the point is, stop trying to compare Melee standards with brawl standards because they are obviously very different games. If you love it so much, go and play it and don't participate in the discussion at all lol

We have proven Snake can beat MK, Diddy
First, we have proven nothing. Ally and ADHD have. Second, what they've proven is that they can beat out everyone; not Snake or Diddy. If that where the case, you'd see more snakes, or at least, more Diddy's top 10 in Pound (which is the tourny example you're using since you metioned Diddy). We can however prove that MK is the obvious majority when it comes to top placings seeing as not just 1 player got top 10 with him: 8 did.
 
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What other arguments do people have for "not banning MK" other than him being beatable? I really want a coherent and complete list of arguments so I can answer them in my own way. Sicne you and AvaricePanda are the only ones in this thread arguing against the point I'm trying to make, it'd only be fair if one of you both were the ones who would bring up the main arguments.
I added a small detail in bold. We already know that MK is beatable. That's not my argument, and most likely not Kewkky's either.

EDIT: Actually no, scratch that. I kind of want to hear all the arguments again.
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
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1. Ban MK in local tourneys
2. Notice larger? smaller? turnouts
3. ????
4. Profit!



MK v Diddy is even in the current metagame (you know, when MK players don't learn match-ups and just rely on a superior moveset to win matches,) but within a year (or sooner) MK will have the advantage 60:40, at least.
 

Kewkky

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1. Ban MK in local tourneys
2. Notice larger? smaller? turnouts
3. ????
4. Profit!



MK v Diddy is even in the current metagame (you know, when MK players don't learn match-ups and just rely on a superior moveset to win matches,) but within a year (or sooner) MK will have the advantage 60:40, at least.
I completely agree. I'm not saying this because I want MK to look even gayer than he is now, I'm merely comparing ADHD to how Ally was back in summer 2009, where everyone used him as a shield and called the MU even (apparently M2K learned how to beat Ally consistently, so much for M2K:Ally being 50:50).

And if only TOs and players would comply with that simple request... But everyone's so hardheaded, they'll only take action once the SBR-B declares that MK is banned. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen, as we've seen in the past attempts (only exclusion is Xyro's tourneys, which all had larger attendance while MK was banned according to him).
 

Kewkky

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By the way, I remember some people said that "MK isn't the only one capable of planking/scrooging/dair camping/whatever"....

MK might not be the only one... But he IS the best offensive character in the game, so gaining the lead, maintaining it and regaining it is no sweat for him, while it IS pretty hard for the rest of the characters to do so. The addition of the planking/etc options only make matches even more one-sided.


EDIT: Whoops, didn't notice I was the last one to talk... My bad. *goes to sleep cuz it's 5:00am here*
 

xDD-Master

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Yes MK is one of the best maybe even the best offensive character. Other characters can also plank/scrooge/air camp/spam whatever, but the thing about MK is, that he combines all of these things lol. Gaw can Plank, but can he spam and camp well? Falco can spam and camp pretty well, but is he able to plank that well? OK, Pit can do planking (worse than MK), spamming (OK maybe even to MKs spamming), scrooge and in same way he can camp well (Camp = Planking / Spamming for Pit), what he misses now is the perfect offensive MK has. Snake can camp very nice, he can spam those nades and he has a 'better' offensive than a lot of characters. But what about air camping, scrooging or even planking?

^just something to go into Detail of Kewkky's last post :p
 

Boku wa Kami

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After reading the original post and it's proceeds, it seems to me that Brawl just isn't really a 1-character-main game. For example, a character which has a great match-up against another is balanced by being poor against another. MK just has more points when you add those all together. So, everyone is forced to main several characters if they expect to win.
 

AvaricePanda

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Brawl is just a campy game. Starting off, you really have to like it or find a character you like to even want to continue playing just because of its nature. Honestly, if Diddy Kong didn't exist in it I wouldn't keep playing. Banning MK won't suddenly make Brawl a more appealing game. Yes, a few less people will quit, but there's still going to be just as many people fed up with its mechanics and quit for Melee/other fighter/not playing fighters, like what a lot of Melee players did initially.

...and now that I think about it, what I just said is an example of one of those crappy, baseless, opinionated arguments that I'm so tired of seeing for one and a half years, but it's pretty much how I feel.

So, you mean to tell me that, if I take the time to survey everyone that has played and quit brawl within a reasonable playing career, you can honestly say that you're mind will change completely and you'll be pro ban?

I could bring you a Personal live recorded interview with every player that quit brawl within a reasonable tourney playing time, and still, someone would bring up another random fact that would be impossible to document and the discussion would find a new place to go to.
If you honestly cared about the future of Brawl and that banning MK is the right thing, you'd do this.

Why does it matter where this discussion goes? 90% of people here have no authority or say in anything, so why does it matter if you change their opinions? If you really cared enough, you'd actually do this survey, finally bring up something new which the pro-ban side hasn't done for one and a half years, and at least if the topic here is derailed you could PM it to influential TOs or SBR members.

But if you're too lazy to do that, why should you have a say in whether or not MK gets banned or stays, a decision that will affect hundreds of Brawl players who do care enough for months if not years?
 

DFat2

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If you honestly cared about the future of Brawl and that banning MK is the right thing, you'd do this.

Why does it matter where this discussion goes? 90% of people here have no authority or say in anything, so why does it matter if you change their opinions? If you really cared enough, you'd actually do this survey, finally bring up something new which the pro-ban side hasn't done for one and a half years, and at least if the topic here is derailed you could PM it to influential TOs or SBR members.

But if you're too lazy to do that, why should you have a say in whether or not MK gets banned or stays, a decision that will affect hundreds of Brawl players who do care enough for months if not years?
It is impossible to document. There are TOO many Local tourneys which don't get posted anywhere. The anti ban side might suggest that if you cant document them all, they shouldn't be included at all. So that might leave OoS tournaments like HOBO's and Apexes and Pounds and whatnot starting from the first one up to the last one.

That in turn might be plausible, but time consuming at best.

Either way, as much as the pro ban (which have given examples of MK's overpowered properties [i think CRASHiC posted some things fiction said]) "don't" have sufficient facts to back why he should be banned, the anti ban has not even tried to prove that he doesn't deserve it. The closest thing is ADHD's thread which just states his track record on Beating MK's and the fact that he has the experience versing him. He could have easily given thoughts or ideas on how to verse him, which in turns might have shut up all of us pro banners, but we got.

Would any antibaner would be kind enough to give facts as well?
 

AvaricePanda

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I'll work on it later tonight or tomorrow. Honestly, I'm just curious to see. I know that since the release of Brawl, the MW seems to have grown quite a bit in skill, tournament attendance, and tournaments existing in general, but I can't say the same for other regions.

Also, I'm not concerned about local 15-20 person tournaments. I'm concerned about 50-100 person in general, where there's a large amount of mid-level borderline top-level skill, but it's not the nation's best and you can generally expect who places where. I want to see how MK influences specific regions, or just how regions fare with MK.

For example, I know that the eastern Midwest doesn't seem affected much by it. A ban on MK would make like 50% of people who play in NY/NJ have to switch mains, and apparently MK has negatively influenced regions like New Mexico (what I heard from Dekar a while ago), the GtaN region, and Puerto Rico.

Sorry if my initial post seemed harsh, it's just that ban discussion was getting absolutely nowhere because everything that could have been said has been said over the past year. Honestly I don't think he warrants a ban and I don't think the results of what I find will change my mind; I'm just curious.
 

MarKO X

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I love how everyone is a Street Fighter expert.

Edit: I also love how everyone's a savior.
 

Karcist

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I completely agree. I'm not saying this because I want MK to look even gayer than he is now, I'm merely comparing ADHD to how Ally was back in summer 2009, where everyone used him as a shield and called the MU even (apparently M2K learned how to beat Ally consistently, so much for M2K:Ally being 50:50).

And if only TOs and players would comply with that simple request... But everyone's so hardheaded, they'll only take action once the SBR-B declares that MK is banned. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen, as we've seen in the past attempts (only exclusion is Xyro's tourneys, which all had larger attendance while MK was banned according to him).
I think it would take a little time before there would be increased turnouts. At the very beginning of the ban it might not be taken so well by some people.
 

Wolfey Kong

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If Meta Knight can be beaten with the right characters and tacts, how in the world is he overpowered?
I don't get it.

If he's a hard char to beat, and uses cheap tacts, then it just motivates me to even improve with those characters I really love. Then to get my revenge against him in the end of the day.

More over I can say that the developers of Brawl probably have been playing this game more than any of us... So it would be a shame if any of the characters were that overpowered. Especially if the tacts really are that cheap.
 

bleyva

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If he's a hard char to beat, and uses cheap tacts, then it just motivates me to even improve with those characters I really love. Then to get my revenge against him in the end of the day.

More over I can say that the developers of Brawl probably have been playing this game more than any of us... So it would be a shame if any of the characters were that overpowered. Especially if the tacts really are that cheap.
saying that youll get better and beat him is irrelevant to this sort of discussion, as any MK main you play could just as easily have the same response to you in retaliation, and suddenly youre back at square one, fighting an uphill battle once again. its all about equal skill on both sides, and looking at the character for who he is.

btw, the developers of this game could give a rats *** about competitive balance, looking at MK's stats and tools makes that fairly evident.
 

DFat2

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MK cannot be banned. He may be overpowered, but that's it. He's top tier at worst. Tornado can be broken by some characters, although not all; he can be out spaced by some characters; he can be Killed fairly easy by some characters.

In all, he is basically a very balanced character that has a really Powerful Move - Which can be stopped by certain moves (DDD's Dtilt, Marths FSmash, DD's Naners {if i'm not mistaken}). If MK gets banned by Tornado, Snake will HAVE to get banned because of FTilt and U tilt which if spaced are equally safe, then Diddy For his ability to pull Items, then DDD for his Superior Grab range and Chain grab, then Falco for is superior Spamming Capability, then Pit for his superior planking.

Even though there isn't a even a near idea as to when they might be suggested after MK gets banned (hypothetically), they might as well ban them as well since they banned the first one for his superior tactic.

Banning him because hes merely strong is just scrub talk, tbh. All of this is my own conclusion after looking for info and doing re-search. Tournament results are mostly irrelevant for a ban because it's mostly player dependent. The ban-able aspect is the character itself, which is strong, but "not unbeatable". If he has Equal match ups, they're equal. If he has 55:45 match ups, yes, the player has to put in more effort, but he can win. If all Ounce fails MK could be picked as well, even though 2 or 3 more could win the match.
 

Nanaki

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As an avid Tekken fan (placed in several regional TTT tournies) and casual smash fan, I greatly approve of this thread and its creator.

Jin in T4 was the reason I quit playing Tekken. T5 Devil Jin and Steve had similar problems, but not nearly as bad as T4 Jin. T6 would've died completely and quickly had it not been for the release of T6:BR (Bob was absurd).

T6:BR is actually somewhat (kinda) balanced, and is flourishing. There are several 'good' characters, but they're not unbeatable. The best player in the world plays Lee, who is considered by most to be a middle tier character.

The funniest part is, despite Jin in T4 and Bob in T6 being incredibly overpowered, there was still a huge split among players about whether or not they should be banned. When they nerfed the living piss out of Bob in T6:BR, Bob players cried endless rivers while everyone else agreed it was the right thing to do - he was viable in his nerfed form, and the game was much more competitive.

It's not difficult to see why these bans never take place. People cling to their characters (usually the 'best' or very near 'best' character) and will throw giant tantrums claiming unfairness if their character is banned or nerfed. The fact that the character is the best in the first place leads to huge numbers of people playing them, because quite simply, people like to win.

This makes the whiney tantrums all the louder and more impossible to ignore. The common response from these whiners, to defend their quite obviously overpowered and competitively unfair character, is 'learn2play' or 'get better, my character's not unbeatable'. Even when presented with clear statistical results giving proof of the character's dominance, the response becomes 'the people who play my character are better than everyone else' or 'my character's metagame has advanced faster'.

We all know what's fair and what's not, it's easy to spot. The idiocy and biased nature of the masses makes progress impossible. Welcome to competitive fighting games, I hope you enjoy the ride.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I don't see why any of you care what pros from other games say about Smash. Unless they actually play the game competitively, their opinion doesn't mean **** to me. And even then, you have to take some things that top Smash players say with a grain of salt.
 

BlackSmoke

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I don't see why any of you care what pros from other games say about Smash. Unless they actually play the game competitively, their opinion doesn't mean **** to me. And even then, you have to take some things that top Smash players say with a grain of salt.

Expert opinion in a competitive fighting scene can be applied here, even though the games differ. I don't see any major issues in that...Relax.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Expert opinion in a competitive fighting scene can be applied here, even though the games differ. I don't see any major issues in that...Relax.
Except that Brawl is not a typical fighting game, and these "experts" do not play Brawl competitively. Imagine your math teacher coming to teach you english. Sure, they're both teachers, but the subject (or in the case of smash, the gameplay) is completely different.
 

DFat2

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Except that Brawl is not a typical fighting game, and these "experts" do not play Brawl competitively. Imagine your math teacher coming to teach you english. Sure, they're both teachers, but the subject (or in the case of smash, the gameplay) is completely different.
You're saying that other fighting games standards shouldn't be compared to smash games, yet you explain why by using teaching as a simile, which goes WAY off topic. At least tekken is a fighting game or in the fighting genre.
 

Karcist

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MK cannot be banned. He may be overpowered, but that's it. He's top tier at worst. Tornado can be broken by some characters, although not all; he can be out spaced by some characters; he can be Killed fairly easy by some characters.

In all, he is basically a very balanced character that has a really Powerful Move - Which can be stopped by certain moves (DDD's Dtilt, Marths FSmash, DD's Naners {if i'm not mistaken}). If MK gets banned by Tornado, Snake will HAVE to get banned because of FTilt and U tilt which if spaced are equally safe, then Diddy For his ability to pull Items, then DDD for his Superior Grab range and Chain grab, then Falco for is superior Spamming Capability, then Pit for his superior planking.

Even though there isn't a even a near idea as to when they might be suggested after MK gets banned (hypothetically), they might as well ban them as well since they banned the first one for his superior tactic.

Banning him because hes merely strong is just scrub talk, tbh. All of this is my own conclusion after looking for info and doing re-search. Tournament results are mostly irrelevant for a ban because it's mostly player dependent. The ban-able aspect is the character itself, which is strong, but "not unbeatable". If he has Equal match ups, they're equal. If he has 55:45 match ups, yes, the player has to put in more effort, but he can win. If all Ounce fails MK could be picked as well, even though 2 or 3 more could win the match.
There is far more that is broken about him than his tornado.
 

DFat2

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There is far more that is broken about him than his tornado.
Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Up/D air, DSmash; Pretty Strong stuff. Broken means that it's game breaking. I repeat, he is strong, yes, but not unbeatable.

Pick a Character that Can beat him or at least has an equal match up (which shows that he can be beaten, he has at least 1 or 2 equal mach ups) or pick him as well. If you want to pick your favorite character and win, you have to work way harder. That's the price of winning.
 

salaboB

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(which shows that he can be beaten, he has at least 1 or 2 equal mach ups)
Arguably even.

There has been some rather serious debate about whether there are actually truly even MUs against MK or if they're slightly tipped in his favor (More tipped as people are actually forced to use his tools creatively rather than just playing the MU the way they play against the rest of the cast)
 

Crow!

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And you know what happened to Tekken 4? The pros enjoyed winning with Jin Kazama so much that the competitive scene for that game died completely because they didn't want to ban Jin Kazama.
Just wanted to call more attention to this part.

For the vast majority of players (even competitive ones,) Brawl is a GAME. Not a job. When a game isn't fun for enough players, it dies (as well it should). If only the top pros remain (i.e. the people for whom Brawl IS a job), there won't be enough money in the pools to justify their effort, either, and then they'll disappear too.


Consider myself. I recently went to my first tournament. Afterward I started looking into how much I'd need to do to compete with the matchups that got me slaughtered. With Diddy, I see all sorts of neat banana related tricks that are quite interactive and make the game really fun (though still hard) as you get used to them. With Sonic I see wierd jukes and jives that, once you read one right, get shut down until you mess up the boxing and Sonic gets away. With MK, I see constant stress while jockeying to score a hit first, where once you do hit him the proper follow up is to not even try to follow up; just set up for a stressful poking game all over again. Studying for the MK matchup, then, would not be a game for me but work.

At this point my plan is to pretend MK doesn't exist and enjoy the games I play vs fun characters (i.e. everyone other than MK and Jiggles, who fortunately sucks too much to show up often). We'll see if the MK thing becomes too much of a sore point over time, though, and if so I'm probably going to spend my time and money on something other than Brawl.
 

Chuee

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The only problem with this is that mk doesn't have one overpowered move like the Tekken guy does.
 

Demp

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lol
He has nothing even comparable to Jin's 0 death.
Chain Uairs + Rising Nado = early Star KO on some chars.

As far as how inescapable it is, I am not sure, but it can be compared to Jin's 0 death.
 

Chuee

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That's not even close. It only works on a few characters and only at low percents.
 

Espy Rose

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lol
He has nothing even comparable to Jin's 0 death.
Funny, the OP never mentioned once, that Jin's combo was a 0-death, did he?
Even if he did, isn't the point to relate the situation in the T4 community to the Brawl community, rather than literally comparing the characters to one another?
 

Chuee

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Location
Kentucky
This character, Jin Kazama, had an unblockable combo that the only way to avoid the whole damage output was to block the starting hits. Son, it would play out like this... Jin would attempt to catch you with a quick jab, then if he did (blocking it still counts), he'd follow up with another quick attack (which you would block), which combo'd into a 3rd unblockable hit (this is where he became "broken" but "not broken enough") that would send you into the air, where he would then juggle you until you fell, then follow you wherever you'd get up and frametrap another quick jab for you to block, re-setting the whole unblockable combo yet again.
Looks like a 0 death to me
 
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