Brawl? a downgrade back to Smash 64...

[Espy Rose]

Combo's are not gone >.> We just haven't figured them out yet.

Remember when Melee was released? No one was expecting it to be a thing like it turned out to be, so shut the hell up all this. I swear, I'd rather have all the "leaks" and "prophets" rather than all the flame for the game.

This games winner is...

 

[Traveller]

I personally enjoyed smash64 over melee in the end. Im glad they aimed brawl to be a halfway point between SSB and melee.

 

[Gerkuman]

Okay, so faster characters have the advantage of more useful L-canceling. We take out L-canceling, but faster characters still have the advantage of more useful wavedashing. We take out wavedashing, but faster characters still have the advantage of being faster. Why don't we just make all the characters the same speed?

Because slower characters have heavy characteristics which can counter the speed thing. But in the past, heavy characters always got the short end of the stick.

As for 'advanced techniques', I say good riddence. I never liked them in the first place; all I wanted was to get good at the game but I knew that I needed to learn things to even be competitive. So I didn't bother. Lots of people probably thought the same, so by taking it out, you'll get more people interested in the competitive side.

 

[MrLegend]

I'm sick and tired of this crap. Melee took months to create a meta game, years before it became what it is now. Just stop posting this crap.

 

[veil222]

I'm not posting crap, I'm posting what I believe are pretty good explanations of why things were taken out of brawl, and why I really can't see any techs being found to replace what they did . This isn't a bad topic to discuss, it's just, alot of people are being really negative or irrelevant about it.

 

[Lynkx]

Brawl is too perfect. The Street Fighter games' combo system was a mistake and that's what made it one of the best fighting games ever. Link's Awakening's glitches was clearly a big mistake and I still play it and love it for its glitches. It just wouldn't be Link's Awakening without its glitches.

However, there is bound to be some glitches in Brawl. I'm sure they just focused on removing WDing and other stuff. Sure, we've already found out the mid air dodge thing. WDing wasn't found out till a few years later so don't diss Brawl until you've exploited it.

 

[iluvnintendo1983]

The thing I never liked about Smash 64 was how easy it was to juggle opponents in the air. My friend would do this to me all the time as Fox, and I could never get out of it once he got going. In fact, one of the big reasons he didn't like Melee was because the gameplay was speed up from the original, making it much harder for him to juggle. He says he's looking forward to being able to do it again in Brawl.

 

[joeysmash]

Wavedashing isn't needed, L-cancelling isn't needed anymore because of sheild hit physics and lag time adjustment of alot of moves, characters overall move slower, and float more, but many characters attacks are faster, and have better hit boxes. People are upset because the things that favored fast characters, things that made melee unbalanced, have been removed, or fixed with new physics. What the hell was so great about a tournament scene that made half the roster useless? I'd sacrifice some depth just to not be forced to play broken or overplayed characters to not get trashed at tournaments. Luckily, no depth was taken out, people just fail to see that yet.

Thank you....

people using peach,fox,sheik, and falco always seem to win because of these "advanced techniques" which are all gliches! washdashing is a freaking GLICH!!1

 

[Epsilon52]

You dont see the halo community crying because they lost BXR.

oh no.

Thye simply came to the conclusion that they would play like they did b4, own with nothing but skilll

 

[RedrappeR]

Brawl is too perfect. The Street Fighter games' combo system was a mistake and that's what made it one of the best fighting games ever.

Uh... N-No... No it wasn't.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

and the advertising continues...
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141279

 

[Deleted member]

So I managed to get a copy of the NTSC-J Brawl today and made a copy and played it with my modded wii. Well all i can say is...fell short of what i expected

think about it as a fancy version of smash 64.
-no wave dashing
-no L canceling
-a lot slower paced than melee

if you want to know what its like i can clarify a lot of points, i havent unlocked all the chars though only a few so dont not sure about most of it.

SWU

A fancy version of Smash 64? AWESOME. I hated Melee.

 

[J-man24star]

Hehe, i'm used to 64, since i lost my copy of melee, and have a rom of 64 on my compy. i like how it "lags" in gameplay.

 

[Deleted member]

Hehe, i'm used to 64, since i lost my copy of melee, and have a rom of 64 on my compy. i like how it "lags" in gameplay.

I liked how it froze for a split second with certain moves, made them feel like they had more power. Also the slower gameplay allowed for more thinking.

Plus...N64 controller > GameCube controller.

 

[joepinion]

re:

Sounds like somebody hasn't read this 2005 article:
http://lostgarden.com/2005/09/nintendos-genre-innovation-strategy.html

Make all the arguments you want; adding or even keeping complexities and consolidating the market does not serve Nintendo's strategy, despite the fact that it is other companies' strategies.

Live with it.

Also, remember the tiers, advanced techniques, etc., are the most useful to 1 on 1 no-item matches (the tournament scene) and Nintendo has no interest in catering to that crowd.

If you think it WOULD be good business to cater to the competitive scene, read that article I linked above (it's a rather famous article).

 

[Epsilon52]

the tournament scene only puts a trinkle in the lake of the smash consumers

 

[Rhubarbo]

Wavedashing was an un-intended tech that literally broke characters and made them better than others. It also removed strategy. Now, l-cancelling is gone, and that's kind of a shame!

The speed thing bothers me most. On the Dojo, when it was taking suggestions, some ******** noobs sent in they want the game slower and he does it! Melee had perfect speed!

 

[Doggalina]

I hope Brawl is like 64. I love F-throwing to PWNCH.

In many ways, I like 64 more than Melee. I don't play it as much, but it seems more methodical and deliberate (and less frantic [Melee]).

 

[Xenesis]

Since when was Smash 64 a bad game anyhow?

 

[Epsilon52]

Since when was Smash 64 a bad game anyhow?

since people ran out of things to complain about...

 

[iron blade]

Combo's are not gone >.> We just haven't figured them out yet.

Remember when Melee was released? No one was expecting it to be a thing like it turned out to be, so shut the hell up all this. I swear, I'd rather have all the "leaks" and "prophets" rather than all the flame for the game.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but I agree. I'd rather have the stupid 'prophets' making up things than have this 'no advanced techs' crap going around. Grow up. This is an entirely new game, and 64 was better than Melee in terms of gameplay.

 

[Zankoku]

Every character having a combo that resulted in instant death because there was no hope of escaping it as long as the player doing the combo was competent is better than Melee's gameplay? Well, it still sounds better than Brawl's gameplay.

 

[Purgatory]

i liked 64 and loved melee, its ok for it to go back to 64 style. And besides, we'll all get use to the speed. when 64 went to melee and it got faster, many people were complaining that its too fast but everyone got used to it and loved it, so well all get use to brawl too.

 

[shinnok-fan64]

I'm glad this game will require more skill than Melee, as SSBM you'd just use some advanced techniques and use one attack over and over and you could win.

Gameplay-wise, SSB is better, and i'm really glad they're slowing the gameplay down; it was TOO fast in Melee imo.

 

[Swu]

We really need to clarify this up. Advanced tech were not cheap and it didnt make infinite combos in melee. Sure we had ICs wobble exploit but that is one thing and even in Brawl currently if you pin a character against a wall and keep shining him with Fox you have a infinite combo right there. (no you can roll out of it or tech because you never hit the ground in time)

L-canceling and Wave dashing didnt make infinite combos-

L-canceling made all chars faster. Yes you had Falco and Shuffling in Melee but that was hardly an infinite combo. If it was so inifinite why has the tournament scene always involved characters other than falco? supposing the infinite combo critics logic all tournament matches would have been Falco vs Falco shuffle fests which is by fact totally not true.

Wave-dashing- the purpose of wave dashing was to set up for moves and use it as mind games. It was all a timing based adv. tech. If any of you people who say it led to infinite combo please give me one inifinite combo that came out of wave dashing.

And if you think that because wave dashing and l-canceling giving people an edge is cheap. then please stop dodging, there are people in the smash community who cant dodge so if you play them, i say by you dodging that is cheap. adv tech was just the next step in being better and better at the game.

And advanced tech doesnt mean faster chars always would have a better chance of winning. Ive seen my share of Jigglypuffs, Ganondorfs, DK, G&W, and other not High tier, super fast, wave dashing, l-canceling, characters from which people are infering.

Seriously for the people who are talking about a balanced game. Seriously fast characters are fast and do less damage but combo better. I mean if you were good with ganondorf you can get a few hits in after a big falco combo and totally **** him. It is all about timing, if you L-canceled with ganandorf you could get a one or two more hard hitting moves. in essence it benefited all chars. Im sry people are argry because they were so awestruck by some really fast char doing even faster things cus they L-canceled and wavedash they couldnt do anything. If you were equally good with a slower but stronger char and used L-canceling you would still be even. Its was all about timing.

Also about good chars being even better with adv tech then bad chars. Well lets take away the l-canceling from the good and the bad chars. Ok....good chars still better than bad chars. Christ can anyone not say Bowser has been and continues to be a bad character? Thereby can you say that Brawl is balanced?

Also about the speed. Sure fine some people liek the slower pace but seriously think about it this way. Its like driving a Lambo for 5 years and then having to suddenly start riding a electric scooter.

Sure ill enjoy the new tech. But they didnt have to take out the old tech and give the physics a TOTAL rewrite. I enjoyed the SSB idea because of the essence of SSBM. Update the physics, make it tighter and more responsive but dont make it slower and less responsive.

 

[veil222]

Really, you completely ignored what points I made by saying those things, stated things that contradict the points I made, and ignored my conclusion, then made bad analogies suggesting a slow game isn't as responsive or technical as a fast one, and that the physics weren't updated. Getting really tired of having all my well thought out posts getting steamrolled by people ignoring every last point I try to make. But I guess a lot of people on here know the feeling.

 

[PanzerOceania]

So I managed to get a copy of the NTSC-J Brawl today and made a copy and played it with my modded wii. Well all i can say is...fell short of what i expected

think about it as a fancy version of smash 64.
-no wave dashing
-no L canceling
-a lot slower paced than melee

if you want to know what its like i can clarify a lot of points, i havent unlocked all the chars though only a few so dont not sure about most of it.

SWU

my thought is that the Smash series is not a linear line, therefore it does not go

SSB -- SSBM -- SSBB

in order of goodness

therefore Brawl incorporates some things from both melee, and things that were in 64 and not in melee AND some new things altogether. Take that however you want but I like it when a game is made the whole series (in this case SSB and SSBM) in mind, instead of just the latest game. In that respect you could say you have to have a more comprehension of the entire series rather than just the latest entry, and that the series as a whole has an identity rather than just cloning the last game and piling some new content on top.

 

[NES n00b]

It always seems like the casuals liked 64. No doubt because no only did they not care about the better designed fighting mechanics (of course Luke Groundwalker would say differently because he has no idea what he is talking about) or the new found sense of speed, but because they can actually can control their character with no work. Of course, they don't know why ATs are important or how benefit their characters (lol l cancelling favoring speedier characters more).

Anyways OP, think of this as not as the next installment like most fighting games, think of it more like if it was just a new direction. Instead of thinking of Melee terms, try to get with the flow of the game instead of just trying to Melee style in Brawl.

 

[Zodiac]

Wow, suddenly all of the noobs who were to lazy to learn advanced techs are popping up and saying "Its a good thing brawl dosnt have a advanced techs" But that just fine with me because the more the merrier right?

 

[PanzerOceania]

if you are referring to me, I'm not saying it's good to not have adv techs, in fact I'm a little disappointed about some of the stuff that is gone, but there is no use in yelling into space, it won't change it and already new stuff is being discovered. Just because I just signed up doesn't automatically put me in a group man. I wouldn't take you for the stereotyping kind. I'm just saying that the series is dynamic and always changing, if you were talking about the other guys, then disregard this post.

 

[aruby14]

Idk man melee was broken all these things u listed were like small glitches almost that made melee so unplayable for noobs
i could care less if they took this stuff out
plus i dont want to lose to every experianced Fox player out there

 

[PanzerOceania]

Idk man melee was broken all these things u listed were like small glitches almost that made melee so unplayable for noobs
i could care less if they took this stuff out
plus i dont want to lose to every experianced Fox player out there

hate to break it to you man but that's probably not going to change. Everyone puts so much weight on it but back in the day before my friend and I ever used Adv Techs there was still a ton of stuff that made it very hard to beat him. quick moving, aerial strikes, proper use of shielding, there are so many strategies in a game and someone who plays it down to an art is going to beat someone who doesn't, it's nothing personal, that's just how fighting games pretty much work unless you have poor coordination.

I'm not saying I'm a "pro" by any stretch of the imagination, but multiplayer fighting games are VERY much about competition.

 

[Darkslash]

I really didn't Like Advance Techniques. They were just to Pro and Noob at the same time. I really don't think that was how SSB was meant to be played. If you don;t know what I mean you really didn't play SSB on the Nintendo 64 much then

 

[PanzerOceania]

Sure they aren't necessary, but you do realize there was a lot of that on SSB on the N64 also right?

 

[turbo_ja]

I'm glad that wavedashing is out (yes i can play competitively and yes i know how to wavedash). I really think for external players who just dive right into smash brothers, they'll realize that wavedashing just looks rediculous and unnatural to the game. Seriously, it looks pretty stupid if you ask me, no one bickers for street fighter not having wavedashes. I'm not comparing brawl to street fighter, but I really like the element of just a more straight forward fighting game (which i'm sure will be more advanced as players indulge themselves in it).

 

[Losnar]

I don't care about advanced techs anymore, so long as the tiers are more even.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Losnar has a good point. I mean the part about characters being balanced. Granted there will be imbalances but the closer to all characters being equal in theory the better, that's the way a fighting game generally works, different play-styles but equal opportunity.

 

[Deleted member]

Moar Liek An Upgrayedd M I Rite Guyz?!?! LOL

 

[PanzerOceania]

yeah using the world "downgrade" is just a little subjective. There are ups and downs to every game, even in the smash series.

 

[Swu]

Are you serious my post was basically a quote against every one of your points

People are making way too many assumptions here.

The reason they took away L-canceling is because with the new physics it's not needed. L-canceling favored faster characters because it reduces alot of moves lag time to 0, which had special implications such as semi-infinite combos and invunerability to punishment if executed properly. Slower characters could NEVER get to 0 lag with any of their moves, and were always punishable, even MORE SO when face with a fast character that can punish easily.

No combo in tournament meta was infinite other than the wobble. Not even semi-infinite, like i said any pros or even semi pros never got combo to the point of no comeback from the Falco shuffle which is the only thing even close to a 0 lag combo even though it isnt. If you were better you were better. Marths can beat Falcos and Falcos can beat Marths not becase one or the other had super combo but because each one had their own advantages. It was all about timing all chars can punish in combo even in SSB 64. Some combos were slower but did more damage. It was all about catching you oppenent off guard and then starting the combo. and taking adv of situations such as tech rolling out of a combo to counter attack on your own. The semi-infinite combos are only a problem for people who dont understand that if you are competent about it you can get out of it, its the people who play people at a totally differently level and think its cheap because they seem to know some secert tech. Its like people blame pros on CS for aimbotting just because they are good and seem to get headshots and kill in the most rediculous fashion. Seriously what fighting game doesnt have combos. Fine if you think making all moves hit only once and not being able to follow up with any combos is a fun fighter look at the fast 50 years of fighters.

Wave dashing also favored faster characters, because in the rare case a situation came up where they could be punished or coulden't get in to punish something, they could wavedash. Yes, slow characters used it that way too, but they didn't have as many opening to do so as fast characters.

Wave dashing favored all characters. If you couldnt get the combo and your saying the faster char can wavedash in closer and start a combo. well if you were smart a slower can wavedash to and again be outside your said combo. The distance of a wavedash definately influnces the usefulness of a wavedash a lot more than the speed of a char. And duh slower chars have less chance to combo. Hence SLOWER. They take adv of those fewer oppurtunities but did a hell of dmg during them Hence then again my Ganandorf analogy.

Taking these away and adding physics that EVERY CHARACTER can take advantage of EQUALLY TO THE EXTENT OF BALANCE means that any character, with practice, can be as good as any other character.

Yea ok...Show me how in Brawl the physics makes it equal and then even if you manage to show me that, god knows how, show me how Bowser is as good as any other charcter. smash has always been about timing and people getting used to different chars, shiek was once top tier, then marth became top teir, captain falcon was top teir once, ganandorf was top teir once, both space aniamals were once, jiggly was once top tier, mario was, pretty much every chars except the the tremedously slow ones i mean comon taking advantage of slowness is not even ADV Tech based. Just because the fact they are slow means if you can punish. Think about it, before you learned wavedashing and l-canceling Bowser still got punish just as bad. The game isnt balanced to start off with. They made it that way, stop scapegoating ADV TECH.

People also assume slower equals less difficult/technical, this is also not true. Both parties involved have more time to think, to plan and counter plan. If you remove blanket tools like l-canceling that work in every situation, and imply situational physics, players are forced to consider other options, which now are plentiful.

The weird airdodging mechanism in brawl is Blanket Tech, reveresed jump aerials are Blanket Tech. Ok and also we arent playing a turn based fighter its smash, once you click A-A happens, its not like we can suddenly stop A and turn it into B. It just happens and executes slower, Click A-A happens a half second slower. You planned and coutnerplanned in melee but you just learned to do it faster brawl seems slower and after you've learned to think faster well just think about that logic. Melee wasnt about spamming i mean if you were a noob and just Marth Forward smashed, well yea duh, but i guess i have to say it again, its was and always is about timing your combos.

Even if new techs are found, I really do believe they will work to the advantage of any character in the correct situation, and every tech will have a counter for EVERY CHARACTER. This is the insane challenge of having both balance and depth, and don't kid yourself, that's incredibly hard to pull off.

L-canceling worked only after A-based aerials. That is a correct situation so i dont see how in this paragraph you can consider L-canceling blanket tech. and if you do then you would just be contradicting yourself.

yeah using the world "downgrade" is just a little subjective. There are ups and downs to every game, even in the smash series.

Yea my bad, i concede that arguement its more a tangent it will still be a ok game. The ups are all the new features and my downs is the taking away from the melee physics instead of just adding on to it.