Brawl-: 1.5-1.6 thread archive. 2.0 is stickied

[Ulevo]

EDIT: I found how shield is useful guys! Powershielding! Lrn2!

Power shielding only is useful on single strike moves. Believe me when I say I've been abusing it as much as possible, but the stun is still too much.

 

[Rkey]

You should be able to conscecutively PS, that would be really awesome. Anyone know if this is possible to do in some way? Make shield drop on perfect shield instant/one frame long?

 

[Nelo Vergil]

Ive never had Shield issues, but Ive only fought Falcon, Snake, Wolf, Marth, and Sonic. Wolf can give some stupid shield pressure, but if I PS'd, I was usually able to escape, Falcon andf Snake dont have great shield pressure (infact, because of the stun effect of Snake's moves, I find him way to easy to shield, even if I just shield normally). The other 2 my friend (the Wolf main) didnt really know how too use that well, so not sure how that would go (but considering how much **** Sonic can be on Shields, I have an idea). Maybe it should be lowered a little, but until I fight more people (which, for a while will sadly be fail-fi) I wont be able to comment on the issue well for every character.

As for MK's jab, with data like that, Id think a nerf would be obvious

 

[Sharky]

mediafire won't download the file for me =(

 

[Pierce7d]

Hmmm . . .

Yeah, the shield stun is just a wee bit too much.

As you might have read a few pages back, I initially played the minus characters with vBrawl physics. I felt that game was more competative, but I greatly enjoy the challenges of this old school hitstun. I will say that I was able to 0 to death, and do absurd combos with just the speed boosts and reduced lag, WITHOUT hitstun mods, so you can imagine how I felt like easy mode was turned on with the years of hitstun. My complaint is similar to Ulevos, in that you can just keep sneezing out attacks, and once you have a base strategy, it doesn't really matter, because you can drop combos and pick them back up.

I do think that a lot of the complainers are unskilled at combo DI, and proper tech-escaping, because I frequently escape combos, but against some opponents, things still get silly.

More of a complain is the dumb amount of shield stun. Remember, I played the game with both minus and vBrawl physics.

The shield was not overpowered for minus characters in vBrawl. Most attacks were safe on block, especially if spaced correctly. Additionally, the shield is a limited resource. Attacks overall do more shield damage, push it farther, and characters were faster with more range and mobility. Dash in shield was NOT overcentralizing, as it was in vBrawl, even when using it's physics with minus characters.

Consider now, that many minus players have not played, or were not good at Brawl's predecessors. You can crouch out of a dash now. For some characters with small trots, this further serves to increase shield pressure. I have yet to find an aerial that can be spammed on shield and lock the opponent to break it, but I heavily suspect that there is a move that can lock you in shield and break it if executed well.

Now, this isn't necessarily a horrible calamity, just an example of how severe the new shield stun is. The TRUE problem with shield stun, is that coupled with the buffering system, the game is UNCOMFORTABLE to play, because you attempt to act out of shield, and the delay is so massive, it merely results in you getting hit, because your shield action comes out at a time you clearly did not want it to. Dodging becomes an extremely powerful resource, which isn't bad, but the blocking system is horribly underbalanced and uncomfortable.

At the very least, decrease the shield hitstun on projectiles. I understand that they are designed to give some level of frame advantage, which is fine, and I am aware that you can powershield, which I'm skilled at. I don't mind normal attacks doing good shield stun, because I still find uses for my shield, and as I explained to my opponents, you are granted additional mobility which you can use to avoid attacks. However, let us consider some of the more broken characters in this game. If you fail to powershield even ONE tjolt from a Pika who knows what he's doing, you're AT LEAST at 80%, and Pika's new Usmash is silly. You don't have to get hit, you can block it, and you're still screwed. Normally, a good move like Pikachu's Bair isn't something I'd consider over-powered, because I could just block it and resume combat, but NOT with this shielding system.

Luigi is an AMAZING character, in that Fair-Fair can kill everyone off the side, and well placed combo into UpB can kill anyone off the top. Luigi also has a high priority aerial and massive aerial mobility. Normally, I'd shield a stupidly reckless approach like Nair from across the screen. Not in this game.

Seriously, the shield lag is just TOO much. I was already able to shield pressure in vBrawl! Now, characters can cross-up, but this skill never needs to be learned or exercised, because shields are pretty bad. Cross-ups were generally a staple technique in fighters.

Also, I like Marth in this game a lot, but I think we can all agree that he takes a heavy degree of skill to compete (not that he's unable to, but as usual, he has a high learning curve). This is fine, but projectiles are really silly in this game, especially with the shield mechanic. Marth may be able to break a shield with dtilts into breaker, or breaker into breaker, but projectiles remain ever silly. Might Marth be able to reflect a projectile if he tippers it, OR even just give his jab reflection like Ness/Lucas' fsmash? Or if possible, perhaps let Marth's powershield reflect stuff (bring back the tradition of powershield approaches through lasers as was in Melee)

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can't shieldgrab anything in Brawl-, even if it is ridiculously badly spaced.

That ironically makes Brawl- extremely defensive, as the game devolves into tight spacing wars where nobody wants to be at risk of needing to shield a move. Instead of using the shield to defend, I feel that instead you have characters with broken mobility who will do everything they can to run away from a threat until the opponent messes up.

Now shieldstun should be high enough so that characters can't just randomly shieldgrab between hits of multihitters and Jab combos, but I do believe that pressuring a shield is much too mindless as things are now.

 

[Sharky]

hm, got it onto my sd card and all, but now as soon as I go to the stage select screen my wii freezes on me. =/

edit: fixed

 

[Rkey]

But when powershielding you get a lot less shieldlag, right?

 

[Pierce7d]

You can't shieldgrab anything in Brawl-, even if it is ridiculously badly spaced.

That ironically makes Brawl- extremely defensive, as the game devolves into tight spacing wars where nobody wants to be at risk of needing to shield a move. Instead of using the shield to defend, I feel that instead you have characters with broken mobility who will do everything they can to run away from a threat until the opponent messes up.

Now shieldstun should be high enough so that characters can't just randomly shieldgrab between hits of multihitters and Jab combos, but I do believe that pressuring a shield is much too mindless as things are now.

This!!!! Like seriously, did you consider that perhaps Falco's Usmash or Luigi's Nair SHOULDN'T be safe on block? (as an example)

EDIT: Let me ask you designers a question: What is the purpose of shielding in B-? If the purpose is really to reward you for powershield, and punish you for messing up powershielding, then I'm going to openly say that your shield system is bad, stupid, and doesn't even fit in with theme of the game, because now it's one player having fun instead of both.

Now, based on your previous answers, I can see that you are extremely reluctant to change Shield Hitstun. We can still compromise. If the purpose of shielding is truly, Powershield or Bust, then make it easier to powershield by increasing the window. THIS would be good, because then we wouldn't have to take huge risks by blocking in an overly aggressive, risk free game. It also introduces a USABLE parrying system which helps shift momentum in a momentum based game. Now we have a system going on here. Also, due to the insane rate of attacks, and speed at which you can be attacked, having a superior shield is not really bad at all.

I don't understand how you can break Brawl without adding a minus quality to the shield! LOL!

Right now, the best option out of shield is reshield and hope you powershield because you **** sure aren't punishing anything OOS.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

As I was told, Marth is being changed kinda significantly, though no idea how he (or a lot of the major character changes, like Zard or Olimar) will turn out. As Pierce said, theres no real issue with the hitstun too much, all depends how you DI, and how you tech usually, now obviously in a game like Minus with higher hitstun, thats not always true, but generally, if your smart, there is usually an escape point.

As I said earlier, I never thought the Shield Stun was too bad for some characters, I mean most can shield pressure, cross-up, w/e and can get through not terribly difficult, if of course they dont PS or get hit by a weird multi hit move, but I decided to try some of the pure shield stun destroyers, and there are definetly certain characters that can abuse it horribly, making normal shielding (and even PSing in some cases) almost as bad an option as standing there. I do think most people make a huge deal out of it, but I definetly agree now it should be tampered with a little, some MU's its probably the most unsafe option you have besides just standing there and letting them hit you and start a combo

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That... is actually a really good idea. It would require a little look at how much advantage powershielding effectively gives you, but hmm... I'll bring it up.

EDIT: @Marth: He's getting wavedash fsmash. :V

 

[Nelo Vergil]

So PSing is going to be broken while using your Normal shield will just get you killed. Awesome! (Seriously, a broken rapid fire PS would be great, my friend SuperBoom can do a thing like that in vBrawl , it can be stupid beyond belief, but really really cool)

 

[bleyva]

yea so why does snake have ridiculous hitlag on all of his attacks? it really makes him a sitting duck in alot of situations

 

[Revven]

It kind of balances him out, his moves in vBrawl were really safe on shield (some anyway, like Ftilt) where now his moves are still good when they don't hit a shield but when you do shield his attacks you actually get a chance to punish him if he didn't space it. I think Snake is actually a pretty good example as to when to use the shield but, he's only one character...

Plus, the high hitlag allows easier SDI for his moves and basically, from what I can gather, it was to balance out his ridiculous power and range.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Plus, let's not forget shield damage! Snake's attacks have ridiculous shield damage.

 

[Wiscus]

I'm so excited for a new/updated power shielding! I hope it happens!

ah Awesome power shielding with n64 like hitstun attacks. I love minus~

 

[Ulevo]

I think the hit lag design for Snake is horrible. The enormous hit lag just ensures that anyone familiar with DI can prevent Snake from killing them at earlier percents then he is capable, and yet this same nerf could have been reliably accomplished by just reducing his damage and knock back. So there goes one justification.

He's the only character in this game I feel comfortably shielding against. Even if I don't Perfect Shield, I'm still going to nab a grab or a combo. For the amount of shield stun, as noted by the previous posts, I think that says a lot.

It leaves him open in teams. With the enormous amount of hit lag on his moves, he's going to get picked off by the other parties team member in retaliation hardcore. Smash isn't a single player versus game alone. Teams is still a vital part in tournament and casual play.

Lastly, why did Snake need a nerf in the first place? vBrawl Snake is hardly ridiculous when you consider what Pikachu-, Bowser-, ROB- and Luigi- bring to the table, and I'd be willing to argue he got nerfed harder than Meta Knight did in the transition with the additions he was given.

If you want to change Snake, reduce his hit box sizes/damage/knock back. Just my take.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hmm. Can't find powershielding. Gonna bug Shanus.

 

[bleyva]

Lastly, why did Snake need a nerf in the first place? vBrawl Snake is hardly ridiculous when you consider what Pikachu-, Bowser-, ROB- and Luigi- bring to the table, and I'd be willing to argue he got nerfed harder than Meta Knight did in the transition with the additions he was given.

If you want to change Snake, reduce his hit box sizes/damage/knock back. Just my take.

my thoughts exactly. hitbox/damage/knockback reduction seems like a much more reasonable route if it is indeed necessary to address his power and range from vB.

 

[Rkey]

You guys, pierce is making a lot of sense. Even if we reduce the shield stun a little bit, some moves are still gonna be safe on shields.

 

[[TSON]]

You can't shieldgrab anything in Brawl-, even if it is ridiculously badly spaced.

Idk what you're on. All sourspots can be shieldgrabbed.

I really do not like the idea of shieldgrabbing in the first place. You should never be punished for landing an attack unless you screwed up yourself. Shieldstun may be lowered in the future but it will still remain significantly higher than Brawl+'s. The point of blocking is to protect yourself, not to slap the foe in the face for trying to hit you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In a game where broken mobility and combos are the theme, the LACK of a reliable shielding system makes the game MUCH more defensive than it should be, since shielding an attack is setting yourself up to be owned. Instead of using the shield to defend, people will just camp with mobility and projectiles and tight spacing. When you consider how hard it is to approach past massively disjointed walls and insane projectile barrages with a shielding system that doesn't work, I don't think it would be a stretch to call this game MORE campy than vBrawl.

And I don't know what you're on. Spam more attacks on shield. You can't shieldgrab anything that SHOULD be shieldgrabbed.

 

[comboking]

You guys need me to do anything?

 

[[TSON]]

In a game where broken mobility and combos are the theme, the LACK of a reliable shielding system makes the game MUCH more defensive than it should be, since shielding an attack is setting yourself up to be owned. Instead of using the shield to defend, people will just camp with mobility and projectiles and tight spacing. When you consider how hard it is to approach past massively disjointed walls and insane projectile barrages with a shielding system that doesn't work, I don't think it would be a stretch to call this game MORE campy than vBrawl.

And I don't know what you're on. Spam more attacks on shield. You can't shieldgrab anything that SHOULD be shieldgrabbed.

you can't spam a move that has lag, sir.

 

[En1gmaSPY]

I recently replaced the Snake .pac i had(the one posted on another thread by someone named "Eternal Yoshi",i believe...awesome job by the way) with the official B- one and i must say i like and dislike quite a few things.

First off,his grabs are awesome.I don't know if it does in fact happen every time,but i think that you can pretty much measure up and throw someone into your mine/sensor bomb.That was mad awesome.Overall i liked all of em and the lowered trajectory they have.Throwing people by the edge of the stage=priceless.

His grenades are ****,and so is being able to pull out a motion sensor bomb.Side B is meh,but that's just me,considering i don't really use it at all.Up B is cool,but somehow Snake loses the momentum upwards when he does it,so if you are almost at the bottom of the screen,you are more likely to die because the momentum won't really pull you up.But that's not such a big problem,considering how you shouldn't be down there in the first place when playing Snake.He isn't MK.

Down B should detonate way faster IMO.The C4 sticky changes made for some fun chasing games(lulzy).

His aerials are fine,but neutral air should be waaaay faster and have no landing lag.Sounds too broken,but to balance it out maybe you could reduce damage or knockback? i dunno.Being able to stick a C4 while doing it was awesome,but not too reliable.

Tilts are all fine by me,and the smash attacks too.In fact,one of the reasons i had to change my previous Snake .pac was because of the lulzy broken RPG.

Being able to jump after you do the running attack is cool.It saved me a bunch of times and it makes for some fun mind games.

Now for the hitlag.The hitlag is....well i found it cool at first,but kind of a pain in free for all and teams.Maybe reduce it a little,eh? I don't have too many problems with it 1 on 1,but still.

Overall Snake- is pretty cool,but some of his attacks need a little more speed to make him more "minusey".I think it's obvious which ones.I'm not saying you SHOULD or HAVE to change them,it's just a sugestion and i'm just giving some feedback on a character .pac that's new to me.But yeah like i said,Snake- isn't so bad.I thought he was the same and that he was underpowered at first,but after playing for a while i noticed the changes.Good job overall.

 

[L/A/W]

this has been fun so far guys, im interested to see where you take it
one personal suggestion is that i don't like the aerials that make you rise a little when you use them, like warios nair and uair and ddd dair, uair, and especially fair

 

[thesage]

What does ness do in this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

you can't spam a move that has lag, sir.

You can't spam anything in Brawl- period. Until your opponent has to shield, then go ahead and spam Smashes on your opponent's shield and they really can't do anything about it. Actually scratch that. If you have a projectile, you can spam it all day in Brawl- and it cripples almost everyone who doesn't have a move that specifically counters projectiles. Or Bowser for that matter.

That makes the game stupidly defensive. Nobody wants to actually get hit by the broken walls, projectiles, and spacers which rule this game, and the fact that shielding isn't an option to approach past these makes the game VERY campy.

Shieldstun absolutely should be reduced if the intent of Brawl- was in fact to be a more offensive metagame. Or Pierce's suggestion would work pretty well under skilled players. But as things are, as a whole, I feel the game is at least as, if not more campy than vBrawl. In a different way, but matches in high level play are going to take a long time under players who have good DI.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What does ness do in this.

EVERYTHING.

Spam fair and you'll be all right.

You can't spam anything in Brawl- period. Until your opponent has to shield, then go ahead and spam Smashes on your opponent's shield and they really can't do anything about it. Actually scratch that. If you have a projectile, you can spam it all day in Brawl- and it cripples almost everyone who doesn't have a move that specifically counters projectiles. Or Bowser for that matter.

That makes the game stupidly defensive. Nobody wants to actually get hit by the broken walls, projectiles, and spacers which rule this game, and the fact that shielding isn't an option to approach past these makes the game VERY campy.

Shieldstun absolutely should be reduced if the intent of Brawl- was in fact to be a more offensive metagame. Or Pierce's suggestion would work pretty well under skilled players. But as things are, as a whole, I feel the game is at least as, if not more campy than vBrawl. In a different way, but matches in high level play are going to take a long time under players who have good DI.

I suppose this makes sense? So far though, the only projectiles I've seen that even appear remotely as bad as you claim they are are Samus's homing missiles and Mario's fireballs... and then barely the fireballs. Most of the rest of the projectiles are either the same as in vBrawl, to slow to be useful, or not effectual enough.

this has been fun so far guys, im interested to see where you take it
one personal suggestion is that i don't like the aerials that make you rise a little when you use them, like warios nair and uair and ddd dair, uair, and especially fair

Wario's nair is being nerfed. Uair's momentum we can't get rid of, it breaks the move in half. DDD... yeah, this has been mentioned.

 

[Timotee]

What does ness do in this.

optional djc, psi magnet is melee falco's shine, frame 1/jump cancellable and everything, combos to all aerials, dthrow has set knockback and combos to all aerials, pk fire is jump cancellable, pk flash has random effects and goes off even if you get hit.

To summarize: he wins.

 

[thesage]

psi magnet doesn't make sense but I'll take it lol.

 

[Revven]

I suppose this makes sense? So far though, the only projectiles I've seen that even appear remotely as bad as you claim they are are Samus's homing missiles and Mario's fireballs... and then barely the fireballs. Most of the rest of the projectiles are either the same as in vBrawl, to slow to be useful, or not effectual enough.

Disagree, I played a pretty campy Toon Link this past weekend and I really couldn't get inside him at all with Snake (however I will admit I'm an awful Snake player), shielding was pretty much always a bad option against TL except for the rare occasion where he'd Fsmash (which was very rareeee). Yoshi's Eggs are also pretty hard to get around with certain characters, especially when it takes half of your shield away when it hits it.

TL is however pretty crazy with projectile camping at the moment.

 

[Nakihito]

Friends and I are having a good deal of fun with the game so far. It feels a lot like what the Versus series is to Street Fighter.

However, I feel the shield stun is too high. Shield grabbing is a integral part of the Smash Bros. series. Spacing in SSB is what makes attacks and approaches safe. Its one of the elements of the game that sets it apart from other fighters like Street Fighter. Generally, if you miss space and are too close to someone's shield, you get punished for your error. In Brawl- the shield stun mostly prevents this and the end result is characters like ROB flying all over the screen hitting your shield with whatever they want waiting for a hit confirm. You also get very tedious approaches against someone like Pikachu or even Link.

I main Lucario and Marth in vBrawl and I love the new Marth. He feels like a cross between Melee Marth and Roy and Brawl Marth, bringing the best parts of both worlds into one character (except DS OoS due to shield lag). He plays nearly the same as vBrawl Marth, but better! He's almost perfect imo.

Lucario, however, feels awkward and underwhelming. Many of his changes seem rather superfluous and it feels like he lacks the mobility necessary to compete with the other characters. For example, his back throw now sends the opponent in the direction as the way he is facing. His dair loss its momentum canceling property which was very good for punishing air dodges and helpful for escaping juggles. It now spikes on the first hit rendering the second relatively useless. Onstage its difficult to capitalize on potential tech-chases or huge hit stun from being spiking while offstage the second hit probably will not connect as the opponent is rocketed downward by the spike. I also feel the momentum capture effect hinders his ability to zone with his aerials as in vBrawl (This is probably more specific to just myself though). Finally, his fsmash was changed into a multi-hit attack that does a lot of shield damage. I find this one to be the most out of place (second to the dair change). In vBrawl, it was amazing as a kill move and zoning and edge guarding tool. Because its possible to SDI out of the killing hit, it feels awkward and overall less useful.

I think Lucario would be better off with his vBrawl fsmash and giving his ftilt and some other move more shield damage. His dair should be changed from what it is now (I prefer keeping the momentum canceling property and changing the second hit to a semi-spike while the first hit keeps them in place). Finally, rather than momentum capture from running or walking (not entirely sure how it works), he should receive a buff to his maximum horizontal aerial velocity. In my opinion. The project has a ton of potential and with just a nerf to projectiles overall (in spammability) and a decrease in shield stun I think its reasonably well balanced for a beta.

 

[Pierce7d]

I think, by now, the developers are no longer in denial about the shield. The complaints are clear, the suggestions have been made, and I will try to get you videos of the winner of the Brawl- side tourney we had here in NJ (with a lot of top players entered). Camping Pika won the tournament hands down, and the player only switched off of Pikachu when encountering Bowser.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

Im actually really excited for the next version now, with needed character tweaks and changes, and PS becoming legit broken (hopefully), I think it'll help the game get a lot more attention that it deserves

 

[Ulevo]

you can't spam a move that has lag, sir.

Against a shield, yes you can.

 

[Sytilac]

Dunno if this was Mention yet for some reason My ZSsamus's Whip Doesnt hit alot of the times. It just goes through character I dunno if it was ment that way or something

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Sytilac: which attack(s)?

Also, if anyone knows:
-the action that contains the flopping animation that is abused during jab locks
-how to effectively change subactions in fighter.pac

It would be a big help.

 

[[TSON]]

Dunno if this was Mention yet for some reason My ZSsamus's Whip Doesnt hit alot of the times. It just goes through character I dunno if it was ment that way or something

OK I've seen this complaint a bunch of times. What moves are doing this?

 

[JOE!]

so, why is there only a few characters with changes listed on the 1st page?