Bowser's New U-throw options

[Jack Atlas]

Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but i've found up throw double short hop up air to be guaranteed on greninja at 95%. Tested on a friend who is a decent greninja main.

 

[ShadowsAsgard95]

Didn't read everything, but I found some maybe useful combos.

As usual, everybody knows uthrow connects into utilt/uair/fair/jump-upB/nair (this racks a maximum of 30%, highly rising character % from mid to mid/high, because it works between 40/50%) depending on opponent's %.

With really strict timing you can do uthrow>turnaround>DJ Bair at mid-high%, which results in a killmove from center/edge position (I killed Fox at 77%).
But on fastfallers such as Falcon/Fox/Greni/Roy you can do uthrow into dsmash/upB.

Plus, on too aggressive foes you can do uthrow usmash if they try to combobreak you, because it has invincibility, and on players who don't react fast enough you can do uthrow jump dair (immediately or lately depending on the %) to get a free spike.

But the thing I wanted to share is that, on almost every character, with the right timing, from 0 to mid-low/mid% you can do uthrow>footstool>Dair/DownB, to rack some good damage and create a mixup.

Hope it's not something pointed out earlier, let me know.

 

[Jerodak]

Few things I'm curious about.

Up-throw -> footstool.

Up-throw from under platforms.

 

[ShadowsAsgard95]

I actually tested on people, seems you can't truly footstool, funny mixup tho.

 

[Xandercosm]

Well, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves Bowser's meta. This is crazy. I never thought the day would come.

Speaking of that, I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I was able to get U-throw to Fair on Fox and Mario up until 120%. It becomes a kill combo eventually.

 

[Conn1496]

Didn't read everything, but I found some maybe useful combos.

As usual, everybody knows uthrow connects into utilt/uair/fair/jump-upB/nair (this racks a maximum of 30%, highly rising character % from mid to mid/high, because it works between 40/50%) depending on opponent's %.

With really strict timing you can do uthrow>turnaround>DJ Bair at mid-high%, which results in a killmove from center/edge position (I killed Fox at 77%).
But on fastfallers such as Falcon/Fox/Greni/Roy you can do uthrow into dsmash/upB.

Plus, on too aggressive foes you can do uthrow usmash if they try to combobreak you, because it has invincibility, and on players who don't react fast enough you can do uthrow jump dair (immediately or lately depending on the %) to get a free spike.

But the thing I wanted to share is that, on almost every character, with the right timing, from 0 to mid-low/mid% you can do uthrow>footstool>Dair/DownB, to rack some good damage and create a mixup.

Hope it's not something pointed out earlier, let me know.

Wow, these are some incredible finds! I might have to try the footstool thing out, even if it isn't guaranteed! Haha.
-as for the B-air thing, yeah, I've nailed that atleast once, but I'm not that good with timings so the combo is awful for me. lol

Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but i've found up throw double short hop up air to be guaranteed on greninja at 95%. Tested on a friend who is a decent greninja main.

U-air true combos are guaranteed on everyone at certain %s. It kills a majority of the cast about 100% IIRC as long as you read any DI, which isn't too bad a problem.

Well, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves Bowser's meta. This is crazy. I never thought the day would come.

Speaking of that, I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I was able to get U-throw to Fair on Fox and Mario up until 120%. It becomes a kill combo eventually.

Yeah, it's actually a kill combo slightly after U-air stops being a viable option on some characters. -and before U-air kills it can be a better set-up, so I use it often.

 

[Xandercosm]

If Bowser wasn't a casual destroyer before, he sure is now. And now, he's also got a viable throw combo in competitive play.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I was able to pull off Dthrow RAR Bair on some charas.
It's a true combo, but it might be character specific
This is very on par with Doc's DownThrow -> Fair tbh. The opponent DI-ing in is probably the case where it's harder to get it, and DI Away or no DI makes it easier, you have to react to their DIs and quickly do it

 

[Purge702]

Can anyone get up throw to uair to work on Sonic? I tried vs a CPU on lvl 9 and I couldn't get it. I think I could get fair sometimes.

And basically, up throw -> up tilt for low percentages, up throw -> nair for medium, and up throw -> up air for kills (Depending on character) is that right?

 

[Cronoc]

Barring shielding an aerial and regrabbing, I'm less and less impressed with the low percent combo'ing of uthrow. After that first utilt it's easy to get nothing regardless of what move you try. Though admittedly I'm still not going for fairs after said utilt, that's probably the only aerial followup that could hit someone jumping away. Even in the realm of poor decisions (for glory), most people know not to try and dair back into me after the first utilt, so regrabs are rare.

 

[Purge702]

IDK man, I usually ALWAYS get up tilt 2 times at least. Like I said, if you can't do up tilt, you CAN do nair, and nair does a lot of damage. And you can almost chain grab at low percentages, I mean its more of reading the opponent but some people get stuck a bit. If there is platforms though they can shield on it right away sometimes.

 

[Cronoc]

I almost never get 2 utilts, my opponent always jumps and airdodges away. Nair doesn't have enough horizontal movement to catch them after the first utilt. After 40%, even 35% it gets different. But until that point I've had issues maximizing damage.

 

[Conn1496]

Can anyone get up throw to uair to work on Sonic? I tried vs a CPU on lvl 9 and I couldn't get it. I think I could get fair sometimes.

And basically, up throw -> up tilt for low percentages, up throw -> nair for medium, and up throw -> up air for kills (Depending on character) is that right?

Starting to seem that way. N-air is pretty good, but it can be unsafe, so I tend to go for F-airs, against some. U-air definately works on Sonic though, the timing might just be awkward for you. You tend to have to full hop double jump at kill %s and then you have to read DI, etc... It's kind of a pain - Sonic dies at 95% without DI as far as I know, but I wouldn't know with DI.

IDK man, I usually ALWAYS get up tilt 2 times at least. Like I said, if you can't do up tilt, you CAN do nair, and nair does a lot of damage. And you can almost chain grab at low percentages, I mean its more of reading the opponent but some people get stuck a bit. If there is platforms though they can shield on it right away sometimes.

U-tilt is only ever guaranteed once. I'd recommend a second as it tends to cover you from most attacks, but don't rely on it, I've been hit by Mario's N-air, etc. trying for a second before.

Barring shielding an aerial and regrabbing, I'm less and less impressed with the low percent combo'ing of uthrow. After that first utilt it's easy to get nothing regardless of what move you try. Though admittedly I'm still not going for fairs after said utilt, that's probably the only aerial followup that could hit someone jumping away. Even in the realm of poor decisions (for glory), most people know not to try and dair back into me after the first utilt, so regrabs are rare.

I almost never get 2 utilts, my opponent always jumps and airdodges away. Nair doesn't have enough horizontal movement to catch them after the first utilt. After 40%, even 35% it gets different. But until that point I've had issues maximizing damage.

If you're really bothered about getting better damage for the follow-up you probably just want to F-throw/B-throw. U-throw will get you 15% guaranteed, but F-throw and B-throw have a better early follow-up IMO and do 12% each. It totally depends. I just wouldn't try and follow-up U-throw > U-tilt, but rather just capitalise on the position since they'll be above you and likely retreating.

 

[Purge702]

can someone post a video of them getting it on a lvl 9 CPU Sonic that is set to attack? I tried for a while and couldn't get it. I can get it on tons of others.

 

[Cronoc]

can someone post a video of them getting it on a lvl 9 CPU Sonic that is set to attack? I tried for a while and couldn't get it. I can get it on tons of others.

Uthrow to uair? At what percent?

 

[Purge702]

I mean, an up throw to up air and it kills. On lets say battlefield or final D. I didn't try every stage, I just couldn't kill with it in practice.

 

[Hitman JT]

Do we have a list yet of what percentage our hoo-hah KOs the entire cast at? So far I just have Jiggs at 70% and Dedede at 113%, in training with no DI and no rage.

 

[S_B]

Do we have a list yet of what percentage our hoo-hah KOs the entire cast at? So far I just have Jiggs at 70% and Dedede at 113%, in training with no DI and no rage.

I was actually planning to make a video of this exact information and upload it (with a bit of a humorous twist) but I lack a video capture device beyond youtube uploads and you can't upload videos of training sessions...

 

[pitfall356]

Gosh, it would be nuts if uthrow -> footstool was a thing. That would guarantee a Bomb, 26% for the combo... That's more than what you usually get from uthrow nair. It would be way OP. That said, has anyone found a way to true combo bomb, or at least make it so close that the opponent has a frame or so reaction time? I've yet to find anything, and uthrow -> grounded bomb never even connects, for either one of the hits.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves Bowser's meta. This is crazy. I never thought the day would come.

Speaking of that, I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I was able to get U-throw to Fair on Fox and Mario up until 120%. It becomes a kill combo eventually.

You shouldn't need to wait until then. Lord Mix and I were discussing this last night. UThrow has a hitstun modifier where there's more hitstun on an opponent that has received more damage. You can kill Fox with UThrow > UAir if you GRAB him at 90%. You can also kill Sheik at 85% with this same thing, rage not taken into account. Rosalina needs to be at 90%

I'd say that fast falling characters need 5% more to be killed than their "floatier" counterparts of the same weight, but I'd need to check weight lists.

Anyway, I don't want to go too much into it. Lord Mix has a video in the works, and I don't want to take credit for what's going to be a MASSIVE contribution.

 

[Xandercosm]

You shouldn't need to wait until then. Lord Mix and I were discussing this last night. UThrow has a hitstun modifier where there's more hitstun on an opponent that has received more damage. You can kill Fox with UThrow > UAir if you GRAB him at 90%. You can also kill Sheik at 85% with this same thing, rage not taken into account. Rosalina needs to be at 90%

I'd say that fast falling characters need 5% more to be killed than their "floatier" counterparts of the same weight, but I'd need to check weight lists.

Anyway, I don't want to go too much into it. Lord Mix has a video in the works, and I don't want to take credit for what's going to be a MASSIVE contribution.

I'd better watch said video when it comes out then.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd better watch said video when it comes out then.

You should see what it can do with heavies. You won't kill as early as with Sheik, but you can rack up the damage like a ************. NAir is super important against heavies.

 

[Dagon97]

Sheik gets hit by Dthrow > Utilt from 0% - 51% and it catches Sheik's jump from 0% - 3% (Was tested on human opponent)

 

[TJTheRager]

I appreciate this buff, but Bowser still can sometime be combo food. This was an awesome update for him, and I'm not even MAD!

 

[King_of_Hearts]

I cannot do an air klaw after uthrow after many attempts. It seems like it should be possible, and it looks like I should be grabbing them, but they pass through the klaw without being grabbed. Perhaps uthrow now puts them into some sort of special state in which klaw doesn't work? Very strange.

Sorry if this has been answered but it's the properties of grabs in sm4sh. You can't re-grab for a tiny bit & command grabs count. I may be wrong on this so i'd double check

 

[WwwWario]

I'm just stepping by from some Online matches to say that this Up Throw buff was the most stupid thing Sakurai has done in a long time. Same with DK's Cargo Up Throw. I had a clear lead on him every match, then he just got a few up Throw combos which I tried everything I could with DI, but nothing worked. A few grabs and I was dead. And the worst part is: This player sucked. He was the typical Bowser noob who always used Down Air above me. Yet, he got a few grabs and I was dead....

This patch made Bowser into a cheap, stupid character honestly. It's no fun to play against him anymore. This player used 2 attacks to finish me off several of these matches. TWO ATTACKS. And that was Up Throw and Up Air. Anyone can pick him up and win by simply getting a few grabs to Up Airs.

Out of EVERYTHING Sakurai could have buffed Bowser in, he chose to give him the most cheap buff ever,,,

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

WwwWario Sorry to hear that, buddy. Bowser can't thrive off of just the grab. He gets wrecked for being predictable like that. Bowser isn't DK; his neutral is pretty average and he doesn't have a good enough aerial game to compensate for getting caught. I'm sure with time you'll be fine.

 

[Xandercosm]

I'm just stepping by from some Online matches to say that this Up Throw buff was the most stupid thing Sakurai has done in a long time. Same with DK's Cargo Up Throw. I had a clear lead on him every match, then he just got a few up Throw combos which I tried everything I could with DI, but nothing worked. A few grabs and I was dead. And the worst part is: This player sucked. He was the typical Bowser noob who always used Down Air above me. Yet, he got a few grabs and I was dead....

This patch made Bowser into a cheap, stupid character honestly. It's no fun to play against him anymore. This player used 2 attacks to finish me off several of these matches. TWO ATTACKS. And that was Up Throw and Up Air. Anyone can pick him up and win by simply getting a few grabs to Up Airs.

Out of EVERYTHING Sakurai could have buffed Bowser in, he chose to give him the most cheap buff ever,,,

If you're playing as Ganondorf, I can understand why you're having trouble. Ganondorf, to be frank, is complete and utter garbage. Plus, Bowser still has the same crippling weaknesses. He's a giant, walking hurtbox with laggy*** moves. This was really the least Sakurai could have done. Honestly, this whole post is just dripping with saltwater.

 

[S_B]

If you're playing as Ganondorf, I can understand why you're having trouble. Ganondorf, to be frank, is complete and utter garbage. Plus, Bowser still has the same crippling weaknesses. He's a giant, walking hurtbox with laggy*** moves. This was really the least Sakurai could have done. Honestly, this whole post is just dripping with saltwater.

It kinda corroborates what I said earlier in worrying that this buff might be polarizing in that Bowser will now be too good for the low/mid tiers but still generally crap against the high tiers.

Gdorf should absolutely have a kill throw, though. Kinda astonished that he doesn't yet...

I'm afraid that Sakurai is going to nerf Bowser after this because he doesn't seem to understand that what's really holding Bowser and a slew of other characters back is the overpowering nature of the high tiers, mainly Sheik, ZSS and Rosa.

Also, he's probably balancing around FG where Bowser was previously getting whomped on but is now probably the one doing the whomping...

 

[Xandercosm]

It kinda corroborates what I said earlier in worrying that this buff might be polarizing in that Bowser will now be too good for the low/mid tiers but still generally crap against the high tiers.

Gdorf should absolutely have a kill throw, though. Kinda astonished that he doesn't yet...

I'm afraid that Sakurai is going to nerf Bowser after this because he doesn't seem to understand that what's really holding Bowser and a slew of other characters back is the overpowering nature of the high tiers, mainly Sheik, ZSS and Rosa.

Also, he's probably balancing around FG where Bowser was previously getting whomped on but is now probably the one doing the whomping...

Well, let's just hope he doesn't get nerfed.

 

[Cronoc]

I'm just stepping by from some Online matches to say that this Up Throw buff was the most stupid thing Sakurai has done in a long time. Same with DK's Cargo Up Throw. I had a clear lead on him every match, then he just got a few up Throw combos which I tried everything I could with DI, but nothing worked. A few grabs and I was dead. And the worst part is: This player sucked. He was the typical Bowser noob who always used Down Air above me. Yet, he got a few grabs and I was dead....

This patch made Bowser into a cheap, stupid character honestly. It's no fun to play against him anymore. This player used 2 attacks to finish me off several of these matches. TWO ATTACKS. And that was Up Throw and Up Air. Anyone can pick him up and win by simply getting a few grabs to Up Airs.

Out of EVERYTHING Sakurai could have buffed Bowser in, he chose to give him the most cheap buff ever,,,

I feel your frustration from a slightly different angle, salty Bowser dittos on for glory are now much more dangerous if I let myself be caught by grabs. Yes, it does suck to get grabbed and/or killed by a player who's clearly worse than you. I wish there was less bread and butter, I wish the character wasn't designed with crippling flaws (since Melee!) resulting in this patch giving Bowser the best bandaid Sakurai can think of - a throw combo. But in lieu of giving Bowser a way to land (via movement option or less punishable aerials), a way to avoid combos, or better frame data, this is how it is, and wanting Bowser to be made worse again doesn't fix the problem for anyone.

In the meantime, just keep in mind that every time Bowser whiffs a grab attempt it's pretty much similar to any other characters whiffing a smash attack - very punishable. But it means you'll have to be careful. I'm alright with people having to be careful around Bowser. Now when a high level player tries to style on Bowser or overextends their strings they're not just going to catch one of the various 10-12% punishes Bowser could throw out without a hard read, they're going to get properly spanked, as they should.

Sorry if this has been answered but it's the properties of grabs in sm4sh. You can't re-grab for a tiny bit & command grabs count. I may be wrong on this so i'd double check

No, you're right.

 

[S_B]

I wish the character wasn't designed with crippling flaws (since Melee!) resulting in this patch giving Bowser the best bandaid Sakurai can think of - a throw combo. But in lieu of giving Bowser a way to land (via movement option or less punishable aerials), a way to avoid combos, or better frame data, this is how it is, and wanting Bowser to be made worse again doesn't fix the problem for anyone.

Exactly.

At this point, it's basically time to start flying the "Properly Balanced Heavies for SSB5!" flag because it just ain't gonna happen in SSB4.

Though, TBH, I have hope because it's clear they tried balancing characters for competitive play AFTER the fact this time around, so next time they may very well wind up balancing characters with both casual and competitive play in mind right from the get go.

I think a lot of the DLC characters were designed with a more competitive mindset. Ryu, Cloud and I'm guessing Corin and Bayonetta all have some deeper quirks to them that are kind of above the realm of the casual player.

So let's wait and see, and who knows? There will still be more balance patches released before the final one so maybe we'll see more heavy buffs and maybe some badly needed top tier nerfs in there as well...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think the dev teams thought process was Bowser sucks in general if he can't get close so they gave him a borderline OP grab attack if he ever GOT CLOSE.

Which as of now much like ZSS you can be a scrublord and fish for grabs and get a crapton off of them.

 

[Xandercosm]

Honestly, I doubt heavies will ever be competitive in a Smash game. Don't waste your time trying to get them to be changed in Smash 5. They're always gonna be the same fat***, laggy, combo feasts they've always been. It's cause Sakurai and his team don't know **** about competitive play. It's never gonna change. Not to mention, it's hard to balance heavies. Even Project M did an awful job. I think heavy mains just need to settle for the fact that their characters will always be lopsided and/or garbage or main different characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

You guys are forgetting about necessary flaws for balance. The thing with Bowser and other heavies is that they can deal big damage while taking the same amount. UThrow is what Bowser needed for his design. Same with Donkey Kong. Ganondorf has his tech traps which have high risk, high reward. Dedede... he has gordos and disjoints. Ike is the closest to a more neutral based heavy.

The issue, even after this patch, is that the higher tiered characters get away with way too much, especially Sheik, though I think that MU got better for us. The thing with her, Zamus, and Rosa is that they each have get out of jail cards. Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Luma. Unfortuantely, there's not a whole lot you can do with Luma without making Rosalina trash.

 

[Xandercosm]

You guys are forgetting about necessary flaws for balance. The thing with Bowser and other heavies is that they can deal big damage while taking the same amount. UThrow is what Bowser needed for his design. Same with Donkey Kong. Ganondorf has his tech traps which have high risk, high reward. Dedede... he has gordos and disjoints. Ike is the closest to a more neutral based heavy.

The issue, even after this patch, is that the higher tiered characters get away with way too much, especially Sheik, though I think that MU got better for us. The thing with her, Zamus, and Rosa is that they each have get out of jail cards. Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Luma. Unfortuantely, there's not a whole lot you can do with Luma without making Rosalina trash.

Make Luma be a significantly less effective shield.

 

[Big-Cat]

That'd be rather difficult. The most realistic would be dropping their HP to 45 or even 40. Any more after that is a disaster waiting to happen. However, I fear we are derailing the thread.

 

[Xandercosm]

That'd be rather difficult. The most realistic would be dropping their HP to 45 or even 40. Any more after that is a disaster waiting to happen. However, I fear we are derailing the thread.

Well, more on topic, does Bowser's U-throw knock Luma away if it's at a normal distance from Rosalina?

 

[S_B]

Well, more on topic, does Bowser's U-throw knock Luma away if it's at a normal distance from Rosalina?

Yeah, but when you grab Rosa, Luma jumps behind her after a moment so you need to do it very quickly if you want to hit Luma (like immediately).

My only real concern about Bowser's followup is that FG players unfortunately seem to have picked it up VERY quickly, which means we're probably going to hear many complaints about Bowser players on FG and Sakurai might listen to that whining and nerf him.

Again, the biggest buff to heavies would be a nerf to the top tiers.

But as for making heavies competitive in SSB5, I think there's definitely hope. Sakurai has acknowledged the existence of a competitive scene this time around and I think they're at least TRYING to balance the game. Maybe the "combo armor" mechanic where the more times a character is hit in succession, the less hitstun they get until they can Nair out of any combo would be a good place for them to start.

That would ensure that a heavy's weight isn't completely negated by combos in the first 30 seconds of the match...

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah, but when you grab Rosa, Luma jumps behind her after a moment so you need to do it very quickly if you want to hit Luma (like immediately).

My only real concern about Bowser's followup is that FG players unfortunately seem to have picked it up VERY quickly, which means we're probably going to hear many complaints about Bowser players on FG and Sakurai might listen to that whining and nerf him.

Again, the biggest buff to heavies would be a nerf to the top tiers.

But as for making heavies competitive in SSB5, I think there's definitely hope. Sakurai has acknowledged the existence of a competitive scene this time around and I think they're at least TRYING to balance the game. Maybe the "combo armor" mechanic where the more times a character is hit in succession, the less hitstun they get until they can Nair out of any combo would be a good place for them to start.

That would ensure that a heavy's weight isn't completely negated by combos in the first 30 seconds of the match...

Yeah. Hopefully they wise up. It's so dumb that most other fighting games have devs that are completely on top of balancing, but Smash 4's devs don't pay much attention.