Bowser's New U-throw options

[Conn1496]

So, patch 1.1.3 is here and naturally the first thing I did was go labbing with my mains.

Now, I went straight for Bowser (who is actually one of my secondaries, but IDK, I'm consdering upping him), since his U-throw was changed quite drastically, and I'm pleased to announce - it's pretty great!

It combos now! Bowser has a combo throw!

At low %s I find it combos into U-tilt, and at higher %s it can combo into a few airs. F-air, N-air and U-air have all been airs I can get combos with. -and atleast once, I've killed with U-air(!!).

It's a little unreliable, I'm not gonna lie, but the fact Bowser has a combo throw at all is just amazing!

I was just wondering if anyone else had any more info on this. I'm very simple when it comes to labbing, so more info on this would be very well appreciated!

 

[KingKong_ad]

Uthrow to uair looks legit at higher % and it kills really fast

 

[luckysharm]

Yo. U-throw to U-air is a true combo, even at high percents. Bowser now has a KO confirm.

****ing. Awesome.

Like...Bowser has the largest pivot grab range in the game, and now he can KO from it. This is a huge change.

I'm testing him right now, the endlag on U-throw is practically non-existent. U-throw into B-air and F-air seem to work as well.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

I've been labbing against fox because I hate him.

Uthrow -> Usmash is true at 40-48%
Uthrow -> Uair is true and kills at 85%~

 

[LIQUID12A]

After 95%, uthrow to uair is an easy KO on light characters like DHD. After 100%, it KOs heavier ones like Ike.

Holy ****.

 

[luckysharm]

I was always worried as a Bowser main that I wouldn't get anywhere but holy crap I've never been more excited to play him than ever.

 

[Conn1496]

It's weird, but I find the U-air option super unreliable at kill %s on some characters, but maybe that's just me, but I don't think the kill will be a defining option in how U-throw benefits from being buffed, but it's certainly there, no doubt!

I think it actually benefits more from damage building with N-air and U-tilt. -and the fact you can act out of it super fast.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I said I'd do it.



10 hours.


Non-stop Bowser play.


Where's my music?

 

[Conn1496]

Oh damn, my bad, at higher %s there's enough hitstun to actually double jump into U-air. Well, hell!

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Hey guys! I got right to experimentation and came up with some combos against heavyweights. Tested on Ganon. Ganon may be able to double jump out of these if he is fast, but a reactionary B-Air or F-Air could cover him if he isn't quick to air-dodge.

U-Throw -> U-tilt -> U-tilt -> N-Air
U-Throw -> U-tilt -> U-tilt -> U-Air -> U-Air

Oh damn, my bad, at higher %s there's enough hitstun to actually double jump into U-air. Well, hell!

I can experiment with high percents while I have Mario here. I'll try to find some things that work.

EDIT: Against a level 8 Mario set to Run, at 100%, it is very hard to pull off a U-Air. However, if Bowser can get above Mario and N-Air, he can get at least one hit in and clip them. If Mario does not double jump AND fails to tech, he will be hit for an additional 18%

EDIT 2: The N-Air dodge requires precise timing, it seems. A couple frames too soon and Bowser will still get at least one hit in.

EDIT 3: Against heavyweights like Ganon, they won't be able to dodge a U-Air until at least 120%. If they CAN dodge the U-Air, it will kill them or bring them very close to death.

 

[Conn1496]

I can experiment with high percents while I have Mario here. I'll try to find some things that work.

EDIT: Against a level 8 Mario set to Run, at 100%, it is very hard to pull off a U-Air. However, if Bowser can get above Mario and N-Air, he can get at least one hit in and clip them. If Mario does not double jump AND fails to tech, he will be hit for an additional 18%

EDIT 2: The N-Air dodge requires precise timing, it seems. A couple frames too soon and Bowser will still get at least one hit in.

Yeah, I had some similar findings, at lower %s it's just better to ignore the unlikely kill option and go for N-air or just wait for the game to drop back into neutral.

-U-air works at some very strict %s, but luckily at higher than normal %s, there's a ton of hitstun that you can just abuse the hell right out of, so it's actually better later than earlier. So much so I'd dare say it's not even guaranteed until double-jump u-air combo thresholds, which actually means against some characters there's a gap in the %s you can kill them with that combo.

 

[Cronoc]

Any ability to chain uthrow into klaw?

 

[Jack Atlas]

all in favor of calling up throw up air the BOW WOW?

 

[kesterstudios]

this is exactly what bowser needed. a combo throw. I called it too.

 

[Cronoc]

I cannot do an air klaw after uthrow after many attempts. It seems like it should be possible, and it looks like I should be grabbing them, but they pass through the klaw without being grabbed. Perhaps uthrow now puts them into some sort of special state in which klaw doesn't work? Very strange.

 

[Conn1496]

So you can actually knock them out of BowWow % completely (Thanks, Jack Atlas for the name. lmao.), but it is still a totally viable option. That being said, when they're out of % range, chances are you can bloody tickle them to death as Bowser, so no biggie.

Also, you really have to watch for DI when you're going for it, foes can DI far from where you think they'll end up, so it's kind of a read(?) if they DI away... Someone will have to look more into it, TBH. I have no-one to test DI escapes with.

Any ability to chain uthrow into klaw?

Not that I know of. I think any hitbox that isn't above Bowser is just ambitious at best. Plus, I think that in certain states characters can't be grabbed and I think hitstun is one of them.

 

[Cronoc]

So you can actually knock them out of BowWow % completely (Thanks, Jack Atlas for the name. lmao.), but it is still a totally viable option. That being said, when they're out of % range, chances are you can bloody tickle them to death as Bowser, so no biggie.

Also, you really have to watch for DI when you're going for it, foes can DI far from where you think they'll end up, so it's kind of a read(?) if they DI away... Someone will have to look more into it, TBH. I have no-one to test DI escapes with.

Not that I know of. I think any hitbox that isn't above Bowser is just ambitious at best. Plus, I think that in certain states characters can't be grabbed and I think hitstun is one of them.

Uthrow still true combos at very high percents, though with rage I imagine that'll go down a little. DI makes things a 50/50 is all. I think you're right about hitstun, you must be. I never knew that, I suppose knowing that wasn't much use to me until now...

 

[KingKong_ad]

Klaw is a grab klaw cant connect after uthrow since the opponnent cant be gtabbed again after beeing grabbed

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Yeah, I had some similar findings, at lower %s it's just better to ignore the unlikely kill option and go for N-air or just wait for the game to drop back into neutral.

-U-air works at some very strict %s, but luckily at higher than normal %s, there's a ton of hitstun that you can just abuse the hell right out of, so it's actually better later than earlier. So much so I'd dare say it's not even guaranteed until double-jump u-air combo thresholds, which actually means against some characters there's a gap in the %s you can kill them with that combo.

I have found that, against heavier characters, if Bowser is very fast, he can get the U-Air kill before they dodge it.I will test it on mid-weight chars like ZSS and Mario, but I doubt it would work against light characters like Kirby.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

So I was trying Uthrow Klaw like a scrub and when I hit the grounded version I swear it had intangibility frames whilst being faster overall. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Cronoc]

Klaw is a grab klaw cant connect after uthrow since the opponnent cant be gtabbed again after beeing grabbed

Yeah I feel silly now, klaw occupies a different place in my head than throws. Whoops.

So I was trying Uthrow Klaw like a scrub and when I hit the grounded version I swear it had intangibility frames whilst being faster overall. Can anyone confirm?

In the patch discussion someone claimed it has invincibility, but they just mean invincibility after the person is grabbed, and who knows for how long...

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Heavyweight general information - Tested on Ganon, Charizard, DK, on Boxing Ring, Training Mode (no rage)


From U-Throw, you can get one guaranteed U-tilt, coming up to 15%. Spamming it will miss the second time, but that's not a problem - if they air dodge, no heavyweight* character can fall fast enough to avoid it. From an air dodge, you can spam for 2 more U-tilts which will bring them to 33%. U-Throw into U-tilt again, and that will bring you to about 49%.

From here, U-Throw into U-Air is virtually guaranteed until about 100-120%. A successful U-Throw to U-Air above 120% will kill even the likes of DK, who I think is tied for vertically heaviest character alongside DDD (Don't get me wrong, Bowser is heaviest overall, but looking at the respective dimensions only, he's the heaviest horizontally and second or third heaviest vertically. He's still flipping heavy)

Edit: Just did the U-Throw to U-Air case with a Bowser bot, just in case of Bowser dittos. We'll just call the Bowser doing the combo A-Bowser and the victim B-Bowser. B-Bowser cannot be hit by A-Bowser's U-Air combo at 120%. However, this is provided A-Bowser is only using one jump to commit to the move. If A-Bowser jumps, and then quickly double jumps again, he can pull off the maneuver and kill B-Bowser.

*Forgot to add that only heavyweights can't fall fast enough to avoid this, since Mario and Rosalina were able to do it repeatedly, much to my chagrin...

 

[Conn1496]

The more I test this, the more it just seems all in all simply reliable if you read the DI...

There's a very weird/strict timing window on it that feels very reminiscent of DK's Cargo Combos. -apt, really, considering they're both heavies with combo throws now.

All in all it just requires that you not get the opponent into a % where they can't be reached in time before hitstun fades, which is ususally super late. I find that the hardest characters to get are generally the more extremely weighted, regardless of which side they tip to. For example, Bowser is often tricky to kill with the combo because by the time he's killable the distance is too much. -and Jiggly is so light that it makes it tricky to catch up to her fast enough when the combo is possible.

All in all, I think it works on all characters, but just the timing is much stricter dependant on the foe's Gravity:Weight ratio. -and yes Jiggs still dies the earliest to it, but there's a much smaller window on it than say, ZSS or Fox's death %s and timings, so the DI might be able to save Jiggs at %s where ZSS and Fox can't, for example, which is something I have yet to test...

 

[Cronoc]

Somewhere after 109% uthrow -> uair stops being a true combo. I couldn't make it happen at 113%, but I'm not inclined to be too exact, I'm not a big labbing guy. Timing for the double jump is strict, have to learn it.

Edit: wrong, see post a few down.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The knockback angle change is a big factor too. With the old angle, DIing away from Bowser would be an easy way to avoid the Uair which has low horizontal range. But it doesn't seem like we have to worry too much about that.

 

[NickRiddle]

Did some basic training-mode testing, FD with the computer set to not move.
Sheik gets uthrow > uair and dies from 84 > 133%
Mario gets uthrow > uair and dies from 95 > 130%

Saw that Bowser got the new uthrow and I just wanted to do a little preliminary stuff before I have to go out of town for a few days

 

[Conn1496]

Somewhere after 109% uthrow -> uair stops being a true combo. I couldn't make it happen at 113%, but I'm not inclined to be too exact, I'm not a big labbing guy. Timing for the double jump is strict, have to learn it.

It totally depends on if they DI or not and what character it is... Kinda testing it's reliability in player vs. player games and I've already had it DI'd out of twice at kill %, so...

 

[Cronoc]

Somewhere after 109% uthrow -> uair stops being a true combo. I couldn't make it happen at 113%, but I'm not inclined to be too exact, I'm not a big labbing guy. Timing for the double jump is strict, have to learn it.

So I was wrong, I refined my double jump timing a little. Specifically testing on Mario, I could true combo uthrow to uair up to 133%. That is, 133% percent when I grabbed Mario. At 134% I could not. This isn't taking DI into account. The only reason it wasn't a true combo at 134%, far as I can tell, is just that Bowser can't jump high enough to hit Mario with a uair in time.

It totally depends on if they DI or not and what character it is... Kinda testing it's reliability in player vs. player games and I've already had it DI'd out of twice at kill %, so...

Yeah with DI I'm sure it gets weirder. But uthrow seems to always lead to a possible true combo as long as DI is read and percents don't get too high. I'm going to go into for glory later tonight to test against random people's terrible DI and see what happens.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

So I was wrong, I refined my double jump timing a little. Specifically testing on Mario, I could true combo uthrow to uair up to 133%. That is, 133% percent when I grabbed Mario. At 134% I could not. This isn't taking DI into account. The only reason it wasn't a true combo at 134%, far as I can tell, is just that Bowser can't jump high enough to hit Mario with a uair in time.



Yeah with DI I'm sure it gets weirder. But uthrow seems to always lead to a possible true combo as long as DI is read and percents don't get too high. I'm going to go into for glory later tonight to test against random people's terrible DI and see what happens.

I will have to try this out myself. DI shouldn't be too large of a problem, I would think.

On a side note, I think it's important to remember Bowser is not totally reliable on this combo throw and we still need to remember Bowser techs from 1.1.2 to deal with characters that have much kess troubke with this combo. Rosalina, for example. No matter how hard I try, she is able to dodge the U-Air or N-Air very well.

 

[MrEh]

Uthrow to Utilt at 0-20% to get some quick damage and to get your opponent in a bad spot. If you think they'll mash airdodge, pivot grab. If you think they're mashing something else, Utilt again. Regardless, if they jump out after the Utilt hits, you're in a very good spot. Chase the landing and capitalize.

Uthrow to Nair at 30%+. Does huge damage. Do this to get your opponents to kill percents.

Some characters require you to fullhop Uair, while other characters require short hop double jump Uair. Depends a lot on percents as well. This is guaranteed. You just need to figure out the percents and which jump to use. (there might be some character it doesn't work on, not like I tested everything)


ALSO, Klaw's animation is stupid fast after you grab someone with it. Makes tricking your opponent much easier. Strange change, but all good.

 

[Cronoc]

Uthrow to Utilt at 0-20% to get some quick damage and to get your opponent in a bad spot. If you think they'll mash airdodge, pivot grab. If you think they're mashing something else, Utilt again. Regardless, if they jump out after the Utilt hits, you're in a very good spot. Chase the landing and capitalize.

Uthrow to Nair at 30%+. Does huge damage. Do this to get your opponents to kill percents.

Some characters require you to fullhop Uair, while other characters require short hop double jump Uair. Depends a lot on percents as well. This is guaranteed. You just need to figure out the percents and which jump to use. (there might be some character it doesn't work on, not like I tested everything)

Anecdotally, it seems like double jump timing changes as percents go up. Not sure about uthrow to nair though, I'm not finding it reliable. I'm getting 2 hits of nair at most. Maybe it's a timing thing but depending on DI midpercents might be fair/uair territory still.

Of course we don't want to stale uair too much... I'll go over nair timings some more later.

 

[Big Sean]

MrEh i'm not sure pivot grab is a good option out of up throw. I don't think it works since you can't regrab in this game.

 

[Karsticles]

Video demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoicS3hkqDo&feature=youtu.be

 

[Conn1496]

Well, I just nailed this twice and killed both times against a ZSS online - even with DI...

Whoops.
KOOPLYF

 

[Zethoro]

UThrow to BAir isn't true, but I believe it still can't be airdodged out of and considering how powerful BAir is, I think it's a pretty good option to throw out as well. At low %s on heavier fastfallers you can actually do UThrow to BAir to regrab to UThrow to whatever you want to use next. Seems like a good mixup if you get a grab at very low %s and would do a clean 40%, at least.

 

[Conn1496]

UThrow to BAir isn't true, but I believe it still can't be airdodged out of and considering how powerful BAir is, I think it's a pretty good option to throw out as well. At low %s on heavier fastfallers you can actually do UThrow to BAir to regrab to UThrow to whatever you want to use next. Seems like a good mixup if you get a grab at very low %s and would do a clean 40%, at least.

When U-air isn't killing and when U-tilt isn't hitting and I wanna get a mix-up done, I usually go for B-air. You can condition them into N-air which is usually a true combo, but TBH if you can B-air bait an air dodge or jump into a second jump, it's totally worth it just because...

Well, it's Bowser's B-air.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

Words can't even....

 

[Ixisnaugus]

When UThrow > Uair stops working, there's a brief period - perhaps for another 10% or so tops, depending on the character - where you can still combo UThrow > Fair. Uair starts whiffing because it's too short, however Fair still works as it starts with more vertical range. It may even KO if you're close enough to the blastzone, and it still works if you read and follow their DI correctly.

 

[anaglyphix]

I was able to pull uthrow>utilt>fire breath for about 20-30%. may not be most powerful option, but it gives ayou a few seconds to breathe.

 

[Conn1496]

When UThrow > Uair stops working, there's a brief period - perhaps for another 10% or so tops, depending on the character - where you can still combo UThrow > Fair. Uair starts whiffing because it's too short, however Fair still works as it starts with more vertical range. It may even KO if you're close enough to the blastzone, and it still works if you read and follow their DI correctly.

Yeah, F-air is a good option too, TBH. If you're out of kill range with U-air, this can sometimes net you some kills just because it can put your opponent in a horrible situation. -they tend to end up with a ton of air-time and far from centerstage, so...

Other than F-air, your alt options are basically just N-air (Which is okay for damage building.), I'd just use F-air and N-air so U-air isn't stale towards kill% (as unlikely as that is).

I was able to pull uthrow>utilt>fire breath for about 20-30%. may not be most powerful option, but it gives ayou a few seconds to breathe.

I have no idea how the logistics of this work. I tried this a couple of times and they either landed on the other side of the fire breath, or they just jumped so far away it didn't matter...