Jack Atlas
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2015
- Messages
- 4
Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but i've found up throw double short hop up air to be guaranteed on greninja at 95%. Tested on a friend who is a decent greninja main.
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Wow, these are some incredible finds! I might have to try the footstool thing out, even if it isn't guaranteed! Haha.Didn't read everything, but I found some maybe useful combos.
As usual, everybody knows uthrow connects into utilt/uair/fair/jump-upB/nair (this racks a maximum of 30%, highly rising character % from mid to mid/high, because it works between 40/50%) depending on opponent's %.
With really strict timing you can do uthrow>turnaround>DJ Bair at mid-high%, which results in a killmove from center/edge position (I killed Fox at 77%).
But on fastfallers such as Falcon/Fox/Greni/Roy you can do uthrow into dsmash/upB.
Plus, on too aggressive foes you can do uthrow usmash if they try to combobreak you, because it has invincibility, and on players who don't react fast enough you can do uthrow jump dair (immediately or lately depending on the %) to get a free spike.
But the thing I wanted to share is that, on almost every character, with the right timing, from 0 to mid-low/mid% you can do uthrow>footstool>Dair/DownB, to rack some good damage and create a mixup.
Hope it's not something pointed out earlier, let me know.
U-air true combos are guaranteed on everyone at certain %s. It kills a majority of the cast about 100% IIRC as long as you read any DI, which isn't too bad a problem.Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but i've found up throw double short hop up air to be guaranteed on greninja at 95%. Tested on a friend who is a decent greninja main.
Yeah, it's actually a kill combo slightly after U-air stops being a viable option on some characters. -and before U-air kills it can be a better set-up, so I use it often.Well, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves Bowser's meta. This is crazy. I never thought the day would come.
Speaking of that, I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I was able to get U-throw to Fair on Fox and Mario up until 120%. It becomes a kill combo eventually.
Starting to seem that way. N-air is pretty good, but it can be unsafe, so I tend to go for F-airs, against some. U-air definately works on Sonic though, the timing might just be awkward for you. You tend to have to full hop double jump at kill %s and then you have to read DI, etc... It's kind of a pain - Sonic dies at 95% without DI as far as I know, but I wouldn't know with DI.Can anyone get up throw to uair to work on Sonic? I tried vs a CPU on lvl 9 and I couldn't get it. I think I could get fair sometimes.
And basically, up throw -> up tilt for low percentages, up throw -> nair for medium, and up throw -> up air for kills (Depending on character) is that right?
U-tilt is only ever guaranteed once. I'd recommend a second as it tends to cover you from most attacks, but don't rely on it, I've been hit by Mario's N-air, etc. trying for a second before.IDK man, I usually ALWAYS get up tilt 2 times at least. Like I said, if you can't do up tilt, you CAN do nair, and nair does a lot of damage. And you can almost chain grab at low percentages, I mean its more of reading the opponent but some people get stuck a bit. If there is platforms though they can shield on it right away sometimes.
Barring shielding an aerial and regrabbing, I'm less and less impressed with the low percent combo'ing of uthrow. After that first utilt it's easy to get nothing regardless of what move you try. Though admittedly I'm still not going for fairs after said utilt, that's probably the only aerial followup that could hit someone jumping away. Even in the realm of poor decisions (for glory), most people know not to try and dair back into me after the first utilt, so regrabs are rare.
If you're really bothered about getting better damage for the follow-up you probably just want to F-throw/B-throw. U-throw will get you 15% guaranteed, but F-throw and B-throw have a better early follow-up IMO and do 12% each. It totally depends. I just wouldn't try and follow-up U-throw > U-tilt, but rather just capitalise on the position since they'll be above you and likely retreating.I almost never get 2 utilts, my opponent always jumps and airdodges away. Nair doesn't have enough horizontal movement to catch them after the first utilt. After 40%, even 35% it gets different. But until that point I've had issues maximizing damage.
Uthrow to uair? At what percent?can someone post a video of them getting it on a lvl 9 CPU Sonic that is set to attack? I tried for a while and couldn't get it. I can get it on tons of others.
I was actually planning to make a video of this exact information and upload it (with a bit of a humorous twist) but I lack a video capture device beyond youtube uploads and you can't upload videos of training sessions...Do we have a list yet of what percentage our hoo-hah KOs the entire cast at? So far I just have Jiggs at 70% and Dedede at 113%, in training with no DI and no rage.
You shouldn't need to wait until then. Lord Mix and I were discussing this last night. UThrow has a hitstun modifier where there's more hitstun on an opponent that has received more damage. You can kill Fox with UThrow > UAir if you GRAB him at 90%. You can also kill Sheik at 85% with this same thing, rage not taken into account. Rosalina needs to be at 90%Well, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves Bowser's meta. This is crazy. I never thought the day would come.
Speaking of that, I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I was able to get U-throw to Fair on Fox and Mario up until 120%. It becomes a kill combo eventually.
I'd better watch said video when it comes out then.You shouldn't need to wait until then. Lord Mix and I were discussing this last night. UThrow has a hitstun modifier where there's more hitstun on an opponent that has received more damage. You can kill Fox with UThrow > UAir if you GRAB him at 90%. You can also kill Sheik at 85% with this same thing, rage not taken into account. Rosalina needs to be at 90%
I'd say that fast falling characters need 5% more to be killed than their "floatier" counterparts of the same weight, but I'd need to check weight lists.
Anyway, I don't want to go too much into it. Lord Mix has a video in the works, and I don't want to take credit for what's going to be a MASSIVE contribution.
You should see what it can do with heavies. You won't kill as early as with Sheik, but you can rack up the damage like a ************. NAir is super important against heavies.I'd better watch said video when it comes out then.
Sorry if this has been answered but it's the properties of grabs in sm4sh. You can't re-grab for a tiny bit & command grabs count. I may be wrong on this so i'd double checkI cannot do an air klaw after uthrow after many attempts. It seems like it should be possible, and it looks like I should be grabbing them, but they pass through the klaw without being grabbed. Perhaps uthrow now puts them into some sort of special state in which klaw doesn't work? Very strange.
If you're playing as Ganondorf, I can understand why you're having trouble. Ganondorf, to be frank, is complete and utter garbage. Plus, Bowser still has the same crippling weaknesses. He's a giant, walking hurtbox with laggy*** moves. This was really the least Sakurai could have done. Honestly, this whole post is just dripping with saltwater.I'm just stepping by from some Online matches to say that this Up Throw buff was the most stupid thing Sakurai has done in a long time. Same with DK's Cargo Up Throw. I had a clear lead on him every match, then he just got a few up Throw combos which I tried everything I could with DI, but nothing worked. A few grabs and I was dead. And the worst part is: This player sucked. He was the typical Bowser noob who always used Down Air above me. Yet, he got a few grabs and I was dead....
This patch made Bowser into a cheap, stupid character honestly. It's no fun to play against him anymore. This player used 2 attacks to finish me off several of these matches. TWO ATTACKS. And that was Up Throw and Up Air. Anyone can pick him up and win by simply getting a few grabs to Up Airs.
Out of EVERYTHING Sakurai could have buffed Bowser in, he chose to give him the most cheap buff ever,,,
It kinda corroborates what I said earlier in worrying that this buff might be polarizing in that Bowser will now be too good for the low/mid tiers but still generally crap against the high tiers.If you're playing as Ganondorf, I can understand why you're having trouble. Ganondorf, to be frank, is complete and utter garbage. Plus, Bowser still has the same crippling weaknesses. He's a giant, walking hurtbox with laggy*** moves. This was really the least Sakurai could have done. Honestly, this whole post is just dripping with saltwater.
Well, let's just hope he doesn't get nerfed.It kinda corroborates what I said earlier in worrying that this buff might be polarizing in that Bowser will now be too good for the low/mid tiers but still generally crap against the high tiers.
Gdorf should absolutely have a kill throw, though. Kinda astonished that he doesn't yet...
I'm afraid that Sakurai is going to nerf Bowser after this because he doesn't seem to understand that what's really holding Bowser and a slew of other characters back is the overpowering nature of the high tiers, mainly Sheik, ZSS and Rosa.
Also, he's probably balancing around FG where Bowser was previously getting whomped on but is now probably the one doing the whomping...
I feel your frustration from a slightly different angle, salty Bowser dittos on for glory are now much more dangerous if I let myself be caught by grabs. Yes, it does suck to get grabbed and/or killed by a player who's clearly worse than you. I wish there was less bread and butter, I wish the character wasn't designed with crippling flaws (since Melee!) resulting in this patch giving Bowser the best bandaid Sakurai can think of - a throw combo. But in lieu of giving Bowser a way to land (via movement option or less punishable aerials), a way to avoid combos, or better frame data, this is how it is, and wanting Bowser to be made worse again doesn't fix the problem for anyone.I'm just stepping by from some Online matches to say that this Up Throw buff was the most stupid thing Sakurai has done in a long time. Same with DK's Cargo Up Throw. I had a clear lead on him every match, then he just got a few up Throw combos which I tried everything I could with DI, but nothing worked. A few grabs and I was dead. And the worst part is: This player sucked. He was the typical Bowser noob who always used Down Air above me. Yet, he got a few grabs and I was dead....
This patch made Bowser into a cheap, stupid character honestly. It's no fun to play against him anymore. This player used 2 attacks to finish me off several of these matches. TWO ATTACKS. And that was Up Throw and Up Air. Anyone can pick him up and win by simply getting a few grabs to Up Airs.
Out of EVERYTHING Sakurai could have buffed Bowser in, he chose to give him the most cheap buff ever,,,
No, you're right.Sorry if this has been answered but it's the properties of grabs in sm4sh. You can't re-grab for a tiny bit & command grabs count. I may be wrong on this so i'd double check
Exactly.I wish the character wasn't designed with crippling flaws (since Melee!) resulting in this patch giving Bowser the best bandaid Sakurai can think of - a throw combo. But in lieu of giving Bowser a way to land (via movement option or less punishable aerials), a way to avoid combos, or better frame data, this is how it is, and wanting Bowser to be made worse again doesn't fix the problem for anyone.
Make Luma be a significantly less effective shield.You guys are forgetting about necessary flaws for balance. The thing with Bowser and other heavies is that they can deal big damage while taking the same amount. UThrow is what Bowser needed for his design. Same with Donkey Kong. Ganondorf has his tech traps which have high risk, high reward. Dedede... he has gordos and disjoints. Ike is the closest to a more neutral based heavy.
The issue, even after this patch, is that the higher tiered characters get away with way too much, especially Sheik, though I think that MU got better for us. The thing with her, Zamus, and Rosa is that they each have get out of jail cards. Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Luma. Unfortuantely, there's not a whole lot you can do with Luma without making Rosalina trash.
Well, more on topic, does Bowser's U-throw knock Luma away if it's at a normal distance from Rosalina?That'd be rather difficult. The most realistic would be dropping their HP to 45 or even 40. Any more after that is a disaster waiting to happen. However, I fear we are derailing the thread.
Yeah, but when you grab Rosa, Luma jumps behind her after a moment so you need to do it very quickly if you want to hit Luma (like immediately).Well, more on topic, does Bowser's U-throw knock Luma away if it's at a normal distance from Rosalina?
Yeah. Hopefully they wise up. It's so dumb that most other fighting games have devs that are completely on top of balancing, but Smash 4's devs don't pay much attention.Yeah, but when you grab Rosa, Luma jumps behind her after a moment so you need to do it very quickly if you want to hit Luma (like immediately).
My only real concern about Bowser's followup is that FG players unfortunately seem to have picked it up VERY quickly, which means we're probably going to hear many complaints about Bowser players on FG and Sakurai might listen to that whining and nerf him.
Again, the biggest buff to heavies would be a nerf to the top tiers.
But as for making heavies competitive in SSB5, I think there's definitely hope. Sakurai has acknowledged the existence of a competitive scene this time around and I think they're at least TRYING to balance the game. Maybe the "combo armor" mechanic where the more times a character is hit in succession, the less hitstun they get until they can Nair out of any combo would be a good place for them to start.
That would ensure that a heavy's weight isn't completely negated by combos in the first 30 seconds of the match...