Bowser's Most Needed Buff?

[conTAgi0n]

Interesting question. It's hard to choose just one buff that Bowser needs most, since what he really needs is a package of buffs. That being said I do think a single buff could benefit Bowser tremendously if chosen well.

In my experience Bowser has three obvious problems in competitive play:

1. Trouble killing reliably (kind of ironic given that he is built around insane killing power)

2. A really bad disadvantage state

3. A lack of safe options in the neutral

Number 3 is the real problem in my opinion. If Bowser had good tools for the neutral, he would be able to create a lot more opportunities to get reads for the kill, and the fact that he is super heavy would better offset his bad disadvantage state (since he wouldn't be forced into it as often). His strengths, weaknesses, and character concept would all make loads more sense if he had a good neutral game.

So what exactly is wrong with Bowser's neutral? He has good dash speed, his tilts are actually pretty decent, he has an awesome out of shield option in up b, and the range on his grab, especially his pivot grab, is also pretty great. One thing I don't like about his neutral on the ground is that his walk speed is so terrible, but that's not the end of the world either.

The real problems all start when Bowser leaves the ground. He doesn't have any options to safely threaten his opponent from the air. Considered individually, all of his aerials (with the arguable exception of nair) are pretty decent, at least for certain purposes. The problem is that none of them have the right combination of range and frame data for applying pressure in the neutral against a grounded opponent, especially given Bowser's relatively poor aerial movement.

I can think of three ways they could fix this:

1. Buff nair, fair, or both to the point of being safe moves to throw out in the neutral.

Because nair doesn't have a ton of range, you would have to give it extremely low landing lag to make it safe to toss out in neutral. Fair is more a more promising candidate for turning into an effective poke in neutral. If they extended fair's range and reduced its landing lag, and preferably also its faf and starting lag, all of a sudden we would have a great aerial for tossing out in the neutral. If that sounds excessive, look at Ike's fair. That move has a huge disjoint hitbox, and yet it still has very similar damage output and frame data to Bowser's (it even has 6 frames less landing lag). Mind you Ike's fair is pretty godly, but Bowser needs a godly fair a lot more than Ike does.​

2. Greatly increase the range on klaw, so that the grab box extends much further both in front of and below Bowser.

I'm not sure which would actually be more useful, but klaw is a move that that cries out for improvement a lot more than Bowser's fair. As it currently stands, an alert opponent can usually wait to see which option an airborne Bowser chooses and then punish accordingly. Klaw with better reach in front and below would force the opponent to anticipate more whether you were going for an aerial or a command grab, and being able to threaten that 50/50 from the air would force opponents to respect you a lot more. Plus you could throw out klaw at a greater range, and since it auto-cancels landing lag you would be a lot safer on whiff.​

3. As MagiusNecros and others have suggested, improve tough guy a lot, at least against projectiles, so that he can shrug off needles and other things that force him into the air in the first place.

As much as I would find it immensely satisfying to charge straight through an opponent's projectile game and smack them in the face, I don't think that buffing tough guy is really the right option. It would be hard to get this to work just right, and doesn't feel like a proper solution anyway. Making Bowser essentially immune to annoying projectiles is like admitting that you can't figure how to give him a real way to deal with them. Mind you, I do think that it should be improved somewhat - after all, why even have it in the game when it does so little? But I think looking to the tough guy gimmick to solve our problems in neutral is ignoring the real problem with Bowser. Plus it would be absurdly broken among casual players.​

Bowser's most needed buff would therefore either be a buff to fair's range and frame data, or a big buff to klaw's range. It's hard for me to say which of those would be better. Fair is not a move that feels deficient, but rather a move that could be adapted to solve one of Bowser's big problems. Klaw on the other hand is a move that feels more lackluster than it should right now. So if I had to choose one of those improvements, I might lean very slightly towards giving klaw some crazy range.


I feel really strongly that giving Bowser back the Bowsercide is NOT the right solution. If I wanted to play a bad character who relied on one match-breaking gimmick to stay relevant, I'd be a Wario main.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Pivot grab range on pivot klaw then.

Tough Guy should just negate needles because needles are dumb. They only do 1% each and they never kill or reasonably have any knockback at all.

 

[S_B]

I want to give credit to all of the players who are pushing Bowser to his limit, BTW. We no doubt have a ton of great Bowser players out there, but there's only so much you can realistically do when you have an inadequate toolset at your disposal. :\

And when I say "inadequate", what I really mean is that there are just too many characters with toolsets that are OVERLY adequate...

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Honestly, I'd fix the wonky hitboxes and all of Bowser's blind spots first before anything else.

But if I had to comment on a design change... (And this has already been said)
Bowser seems to fit the grappler archetype. He's the Zangief of Smash, almost. It's a tie between him and DK.
These two have massive grab range and powerful throws.
DK has his ding dong combo which heavily rewards him at mid-high %s, so I think Bowser should also be heavily rewarded for landing his grab as well.i
If Uthrow or Dthrow was modified so Bowser could act earlier out of them like Ike, that would not break the game, but would give Bowser the ability to dish out the heavy punishes he should be known for. People should be more afraid of Bowser's grab than ZSS's or Ness' or Luigi's grabs. It would be heavily exaggerated, but it would stay true to Bowser's form as a scary opponent who deals in extremes, whether he's dealing or taking damage.

If even that is too much, I think higher KBG on Bthrow and Fthrow would really help in killing.
I mean, for some reason, Villager, Toon Link, and Ness have stronger Bthrows... WHY? HOW can these stupid children have a stronger throw than the Koopa King himself? WHY do these zoners have better killing throws (and better combo throws) than a grappler?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah I really feel as Bowser you don't want the biggest character with essentially the biggest muscles and well built body throw like a sissy in comparison to as you said children who can throw anything like a ragdoll.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Just from a casual perspective, I think some other helpful buffs would be a higher damage resistance when getting hit in the back - Bowser Jr has this mechanic so it wouldn't hurt Bowser at all - greater ranges and frame data on specific moves, fixing his whole "characters phasing in and out of him" and, most importantly, where his opponents fly when hit. Almost all of his stronger moves hit opponents out and up quite far. So much do that even characters with poor recovery like Ganondorf could potentially come back from a well timed F-Smash punish. Just my two cents, though.

 

[S_B]

If even that is too much, I think higher KBG on Bthrow and Fthrow would really help in killing.
I mean, for some reason, Villager, Toon Link, and Ness have stronger Bthrows... WHY? HOW can these stupid children have a stronger throw than the Koopa King himself? WHY do these zoners have better killing throws (and better combo throws) than a grappler?

This has never made sense to me, either.

If Sakurai feels like Bowser is too powerful for an outright kill throw, a throw with a followup would be fine, too, but a character with no approach, no poke and consequently needs to get a read in order to get ANY damage done needs some help.

 

[MrEh]

Or just make Dthrow do 20%. I'd be cool with that too. LOL

 

[MagiusNecros]

Make all Bowser throws do 18% damage so I can not have an excuse to think about using Klaw ever again.

 

[kesterstudios]

It was never broken, it was basically Ganon's side B, just grounded and a "reliable" command grab. It wasn't overpowered in the slightest.

but the difference is that ganondorf's side b makes him go helpless, making it difficult to land. so its a very high risk but very high reward move. bowsers side b doesn't make him helpless and its easier to land, so I don't think its fair for the opponent to lose a stock first. with that said, I think it was overpowered.

 

[MagiusNecros]

but the difference is that ganondorf's side b makes him go helpless, making it difficult to land. so its a very high risk but very high reward move. bowsers side b doesn't make him helpless and its easier to land, so I don't think its fair for the opponent to lose a stock first. with that said, I think it was overpowered.

But you're fine with Klaw missing at point blank range and Bowser being on TOP of his opponent and Bowser dies first while characters making up 60% of the roster have stellar recoveries and can make it back up just fine?

 

[kesterstudios]

But you're fine with Klaw missing at point blank range and Bowser being on TOP of his opponent and Bowser dies first while characters making up 60% of the roster have stellar recoveries and can make it back up just fine?

don't get me wrong, I still think flying slams grab needs more range, but its still much easier to land than ganondorf's side b

 

[MagiusNecros]

don't get me wrong, I still think flying slams grab needs more range, but its still much easier to land than ganondorf's side b

Actually I find it's easier to land Ganon's side B because it has a rather large high priority hitbox as a command grab. It doesn't have the 2 centimeter range that Bowser's Flying Slam has and won't accidentally whiff point blank.

 

[SoopaDerpcat]

I personally think that Bowser's "tough guy" gimmick ought to be replaced with something which I'll call, for the sake of argument, "anger armor."

Basically, every time Bowser gets hit, it adds one to his "anger" value. It'll go down by one for every 1 second without being hit, but being hit again raises the value and resets the timer. If his "anger" reaches 6, he'll take on a reddish hue and gain flinch-proof armor for 5 seconds. Being hit while in this state will once again reset his timer back to 5 seconds, but can be broken by any attack dealing 10% or more.

If he's in a jab combo that hits more than 6 times, the armor won't activate until he leaves hitstun, so he can't just break out of and punish them automatically. This also applies to throws and pummels.

 

[EleH]

Flying Slam actually having range and being able to grab someone in the air. It'd be nice to actually be rewarded with using the move effectively and not have it whiff.

Oh yeah, fix it so when you SD, the opponent doesn't live.

That crud is annoying.

 

[S_B]

don't get me wrong, I still think flying slams grab needs more range, but its still much easier to land than ganondorf's side b

I'd say it's apple's to oranges, really.

Gdorf's command grab isn't typically used for kills (though it can be), but for racking damage and you can read the followup via tech chase and either do it again or land something MUCH nastier.

Bowser's can kill, but it's also very punishable on whiff and with the removal of grab armor, it can't beat out attacks, making it MUCH harder to use overall.

And then there's the fact that it whiffs at point blank range. Bowser's biggest buff would be fixing all of his broken hitboxes and making his Up+B grab the ledge when reversed.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Just here to say I so called it. :D

 

[Bobert]

How helpful would it be if they reduced the end lag on Neutral B?

 

[pitfall356]

As it is now, that move can be quite punishable on hit... I'd love to see it get reduced endlag. I doubt we'd be able to combo or create a shieldpressure situation with it and a followup, but I can dream.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

As it is now, that move can be quite punishable on hit... I'd love to see it get reduced endlag. I doubt we'd be able to combo or create a shieldpressure situation with it and a followup, but I can dream.

I think I saw mention of a puff of Flame Breath, then using Bowser Bomb to mess with punish attempts from the ground. I don't think Flame Breath is optimal but its not high on Bowser's problem list - not that Bowser has nearly as many problems as he had. 1.1.3 did an excellent job of fixing many glaring issues he had. All thats left really is wonky hitboxes, but something tells me that fixing them is a lot easier said than done.

Typically, if somebody rolls into me or if I am unsure which way to aim tilts or klaw, I almost go straight to Fortress. 8 to 9 times out of 10 I catch them.

 

[S_B]

How helpful would it be if they reduced the end lag on Neutral B?

It would help a LOT.

FB is still a terrible move. You'll get 11-15% on average if you connect it, it can't kill, it can't really gimp, and missing with it means you'll probably eat a very strong punish.

 

[Splebel]

It would help a LOT.

FB is still a terrible move. You'll get 11-15% on average if you connect it, it can't kill, it can't really gimp, and missing with it means you'll probably eat a very strong punish.

Yes but it can stop a lot of projectiles and forces an approach. I don't think you should be able to combo from it though.

 

[S_B]

Yes but it can stop a lot of projectiles and forces an approach. I don't think you should be able to combo from it though.

How can it force an approach?

It stops many projectiles while others go right through it, and if someone is spamming projectiles at you, FB is going to weaken to a trickle of flame long before they've run out of projectiles to throw at you.

Bowser is a character that needs to be relatively close to his enemy to get anything done. If you're using FB, you're NOT closing the distance and you're not really getting anything accomplished (unless you're FBing off the edge to add damage to someone trying to recover).

Also, I don't think it should be able to combo or anything, just that it ending faster would make it safer to throw out in neutral without expecting to get murdered if you miss.

 

[Splebel]

How can it force an approach?

It stops many projectiles while others go right through it, and if someone is spamming projectiles at you, FB is going to weaken to a trickle of flame long before they've run out of projectiles to throw at you.

Bowser is a character that needs to be relatively close to his enemy to get anything done. If you're using FB, you're NOT closing the distance and you're not really getting anything accomplished (unless you're FBing off the edge to add damage to someone trying to recover).

Also, I don't think it should be able to combo or anything, just that it ending faster would make it safer to throw out in neutral without expecting to get murdered if you miss.

This applies less to FD as it's all on the same plane and projectiles tend to go horizontally, it also doesn't force an approach the same way Link forces an approach. If you are close where flame breath will almost reach the opponent, that opponent with need to wait it out or try to go around it. Both times you can just use it briefly and it'll give you time to react to the opponent. I do agree it needs some endlag reduction but not enough to combo from it, just enough to give you some more reaction time.

 

[S_B]

This applies less to FD as it's all on the same plane and projectiles tend to go horizontally, it also doesn't force an approach the same way Link forces an approach. If you are close where flame breath will almost reach the opponent, that opponent with need to wait it out or try to go around it. Both times you can just use it briefly and it'll give you time to react to the opponent. I do agree it needs some endlag reduction but not enough to combo from it, just enough to give you some more reaction time.

Yeah, it shouldn't be a combo starter, just not so slow that using it may as well be begging for a punish.

If SSB4 had achievements in game, one of Bowser's would be called "Glutton for Punishment" and you'd get it by using FB in neutral.

 

[pitfall356]

Combos off of FB or into FB would be gnarly. I'd be down for it, although I love the idea of Bowser the combo character. Regardless, I think FB could use some minor tweaks or buffs. It's a fine move, but then again, all of Bowser's moves would be nice with some improvement, eh?

Imagine if we could angle firebreath directly downards as we fell so that it split when it hit the ground to cover our landing lmao

 

[Chyunman98]

I actually have some success firing FB downwards up high to cover a landing. (Still a terrible option)

I don't think Fire Breath is completely useless. In matches against other heavies, it's nice to deal some damage from a greater distance so that you don't risk going close quarters with another hard hitter. I just wish that it could work more like Flamethrower, which is a great tool for Charizard. (That could be nice buff for Bowser, although it's definitely not the most needed one.)

 

[Xandercosm]

While the thought of Bowser getting a combo throw is a great one, his throws deal more than enough damage and knockback to compensate the lack of combos.

This post is a bit ironic now...

 

[Endurrr]

Eh.. He probably needs a reliable combo throw, maybe one that kills.



Oh wait.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Now we need Tough Guy buffs. And shellguard on all shell attacks.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Now we need Tough Guy buffs. And shellguard on all shell attacks.

Shellguard on Fortress would be a little too good, imo.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Shellguard on Fortress would be a little too good, imo.

Which if blocked sets Bowser up for one of the easiest punishs in the game.

I imagine some people believe Bowser Uthrow is "too good".

 

[S_B]

The problem with shellguards is that they DO buff Bowser in casual play as well, so I just don't think we'll see them.

Also, shellguard on dair would mean that it can no longer trade with recoveries to spike people...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Which if blocked sets Bowser up for one of the easiest punishs in the game.

And also, if done in the air, would give Bowser an unspikable recovery.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And also, if done in the air, would give Bowser an unspikable recovery.

I have no problems with this. But I think Shellguard on the first few frames of an attack by his shell should be a thing.

Basing your gameplan against Bowser by spiking him with no chance of recovery is pitiful.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I have no problems with this. But I think Shellguard on the first few frames of an attack by his shell should be a thing.

That would be pretty neat, actually...

Although I don't know about down air having shellguard on the meteor frames because we couldn't trade anymore.

Maybe having shellguard after those frames would be better since we're either gonna die or be punished by the landing lag anyway.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wish list:

• Faster fast fall speed
• Flying Slam blindspot removed

That's all I ask for.

I imagine some people believe Bowser Uthrow is "too good".

To be fair it's the best uthrow in the game.

 

[Big-Cat]

Wish list:

• Faster fast fall speed
• Flying Slam blindspot removed

That's all I ask for.



To be fair it's the best uthrow in the game.

I'm okay with this, but I'm also okay with what we have now.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

To be fair it's the best uthrow in the game.

I would argue 's is better because it does 10 damage instead of 6 or 7, and Ding Dong kills earlier than Koo Pah.

 

[pitfall356]

Yes, but uthrow to nair for Bowser has the potential to deal 30%, and has better followup options in general. It's also much easier to land as far as I can tell.