Bowser's Most Needed Buff?

[L1N3R1D3R]

It's common knowledge that Bowser isn't exactly high tier, and there are some pretty obvious flaws he has. But out of all his weaknesses, which one buff do you think would improve him the most?

In my opinion he should have a combo throw. Every other heavy character has a combo throw, but the closest Bowser has is his up throw, and it only strings at low percentages. I think his up throw should be changed to be a reliable combo throw like Ike's, so that he could combo up throw into up, back, or forward air to build damage more quickly.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

While the thought of Bowser getting a combo throw is a great one, his throws deal more than enough damage and knockback to compensate the lack of combos.

If anything, he should simply have a knockback and damage nerf on the up throw to allow better follow-ups, which may already make it broken, considering that his very damaging nair could be a follow-up.

But the buffs I think Bowser deserves the most are the ability to go off the ledge with a grounded Fortress, fix the knockback of the Bomb's rising hit to always combo into the second hit and better grabboxes for his Slam.

 

[Tri10]

And Bowsercide. Just that. Please.

Being serious, a combo throw could become overpowered with his damage output, so they need to watch for that. I wouldn't mind a knock back and damage nerf to U-Throw. Zard's D-Throw does 6% and isn't overpowered in the slightest. A 7% U-Throw that combos sounds pretty fair if it only does so once or twice.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And Bowsercide. Just that. Please.

Oh right! I forgot about that!

But honestly, considering that the opponent has a lot of control in its direction, bringing Bowsercide back could give Flying Slam the reward it deserves...

 

[Tri10]

Oh yeah, here's hoping, but I'm not going to be surprised if it's not fixed, since it hasn't been since it was taken out.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Oh yeah, here's hoping, but I'm not going to be surprised if it's not fixed, since it hasn't been since it was taken out.

Besides, let's be honest, it was seriously broken at that time.

Although something that prevented characters to recover would be very appreaciated, since there are some characters who can recover from Bowsercide.

 

[Tri10]

It was never broken, it was basically Ganon's side B, just grounded and a "reliable" command grab. It wasn't overpowered in the slightest.

 

[S_B]

Being serious, a combo throw could become overpowered with his damage output, so they need to watch for that. I wouldn't mind a knock back and damage nerf to U-Throw. Zard's D-Throw does 6% and isn't overpowered in the slightest. A 7% U-Throw that combos sounds pretty fair if it only does so once or twice.

I'd say the time to worry about Bowser becoming overpowered is if Bowser players are regularly getting into top 16 in national tournaments and we're discussing what it would take to get Bowser from top 16 to top 8.

I know a lot of people don't necessarily like hoo-haas, but the sad truth is that they're the easiest and safest way to buff a character in the competitive scene with little to no risk of overpowering them in casual play (which is still 90% of all SSB4 play).

It's extremely unlikely that, even if characters like Sheik and ZSS were nerfed, they'd come down to a level where Bowser found them manageable matchups with his current toolset.

Meanwhile, with DK's ding-dong, he has quite literally jumped up several tiers because of his ability to turn a match around so quickly.

I'm not saying a buff HAS to be a hoo-haa of some form, but having a kill confirm off of a grab would be HUGE for Bowser since one of his biggest issues is still getting the read to land that killing blow (especially on stupidly fast characters).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He already has some mighty throws.

Maybe just make them stronger for more kill?

 

[S_B]

He already has some mighty throws.

Maybe just make them stronger for more kill?

I dunno, even his back throw doesn't kill unless he's standing at the edge and the opponent is somewhere around 100-150% (depending on the weight of the opponent).

But while a kill throw COULD work, I'd be hesitant to give him one for the sake of casual play. DK and Bowser both hit harder than Zard does, so it makes more sense for him to have a kill throw.

Heck, even a true 50/50 would still be fine for Bowser. He just needs something to make use of all that killing power...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You forgot his Flying Slam.

Technically speaking, it IS a grab

 

[S_B]

You forgot his Flying Slam.

Technically speaking, it IS a grab

True, but it's the amazing grab game Bowser has that would benefit the most from a throw followup. If klaw had the same range and speed as his pivot grab, I don't think Bowser could ever be anything lower than high tier.

 

[Cassius.]

You REALLY do not want to give Bowser consistent throw combos. He will do too much damage.

He starts looking to close out stocks at 85% via Bowser Bomb or a horrid mistake leading into a Smash/BAir (USmash is easiest for this because antiair blah etc); worst case scenario we just jab or tilt 1-2 more times and then play the command grab game to kill at 115.

At 0% on large characters, UThrow to NAir does 25-29%. UThrow to FAir/UAir isn't far behind that. If that happens consistently, it will become an issue. That's anywhere between 2-3 grabs, and that's assuming you're not getting damage from playing neutral.

Obviously throw combos are cool, but the more important thing is how you remove the stock. So even throw combos won't help Bowser out *that* much, but they would have to reduce his damage output entirely for that to even be considered a change to make.

If anything I would just say fix dead zones, inconsistencies like side b or frame issues. I don't like the fact that odds are I'm probably getting hit by a move before I actually leave the ground. 8f jump squat among other things essentially forces bowser to remain grounded at all times...which isn't that big of a deal, but it is something to consider.

 

[Sensane]

All these people are saying that giving Bowser a more reliable combo throw would make Bowser "overpowered". Um, DK has a combo throw, Charizard has a combo throw, and they aren't overpowered. How would this make Bowser any different? You just do up throw to an aerial and that's it. Not even remotely threatening since nearly every character can do this.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

All these people are saying that giving Bowser a more reliable combo throw would make Bowser "overpowered". Um, DK has a combo throw, Charizard has a combo throw, and they aren't overpowered. How would this make Bowser any different? You just do up throw to an aerial and that's it. Not even remotely threatening since nearly every character can do this.

True, but if Bowser got himself a combo throw, he could stack up about 30+ damage consistently with Jab 1 -> Dash Grab -> Pummels -> Combo Throw -> Neutral Air.

If we were talking about Sheik, it would've been acceptable since that character can have trouble killing until very high percents, but we're talking about Bowser here!

 

[Sensane]

True, but if Bowser got himself a combo throw, he could stack up about 30+ damage consistently with Jab 1 -> Dash Grab -> Pummels -> Combo Throw -> Neutral Air.

If we were talking about Sheik, it would've been acceptable since that character can have trouble killing until very high percents, but we're talking about Bowser here!

I think that jab 1 into down b is a little much tbh.

And the thing with Bowser is that unlike DK Bowser's combo throw wouldn't kill very well unless if maybe a Bowsercide would connect, which even then, remember that Bowser dies first.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think that jab 1 into down b is a little much tbh.

It's not easy to land though...

And the thing with Bowser is that unlike DK Bowser's combo throw wouldn't kill very well unless if maybe a Bowsercide would connect, which even then, remember that Bowser dies first.

You forgot the uair

 

[Mega-Xander]

I think a small buff to the growth of Browser's up air could be useful. Bowsercides can kill off the top, but up air has suprisingly low knock back (for one of Browser's aerials mind you)

It's not a move used too often, but if you could get more kills with it it would be a lot better. Also if you could angle his fire a little faster. Or make the stun hitbox a little bigger...

I haven't played Bowser for long enough to know some of his biggest weaknesses (other than his huge hurtbox, lack of mobility/landing options and no kill confirm setups... Is that it?) But those would be some nice tools to have

 

[Cronoc]

True, but if Bowser got himself a combo throw, he could stack up about 30+ damage consistently with Jab 1 -> Dash Grab -> Pummels -> Combo Throw -> Neutral Air.

If we were talking about Sheik, it would've been acceptable since that character can have trouble killing until very high percents, but we're talking about Bowser here!

The existence of Ike makes these concerns moot, he already can do what you're talking about. He gets ridiculous damage off throws, and we're talking about a character with a killing dash attack. He's still not top 10, and Bowser wouldn't be either.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The existence of Ike makes these concerns moot, he already can do what you're talking about. He gets ridiculous damage off throws, and we're talking about a character with a killing dash attack. He's still not top 10, and Bowser wouldn't be either.

I forgot about Ike (then again, 56 characters when you count Cloud, so forgetting is expected)

 

[MagiusNecros]

You REALLY do not want to give Bowser consistent throw combos. He will do too much damage.

He starts looking to close out stocks at 85%

So like 80% of the roster?

 

[Cassius.]

That's a really vague statement. I wouldn't say that 80% of the cast does too much damage or that 80% of the cast kills sub 100. What game are you playing?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Many characters that start their combo's at that range under the right conditions can easily take the stock.

After all when a character with combo's gets going at 85% range they are going to reach that kill percent for their killing move.

 

[Cronoc]

Around 85% (±15) is a key time for many throw combo characters, it's on the edge of where their throws will no longer combo reliably. It's usually around this percent (or lower for some) that one last good combo throw can set up to take a stock if well executed. Sometimes this is stage or positioning dependent, but while 80% of the cast might be an exaggeration I agree with the general assertion.

As long as Bowser has trouble landing, no way to combo-break with a frame 3-4 nair or a movement option, and a frame 4 spot/airdodge, he's in no danger of being overpowered. Besides, though it won't happen, I'd be happy for him to be overpowered. I don't play Bowser because I crave being a low tier hero. I just like playing Bowser. Plenty of people played pre-patch Diddy with no remorse whatsoever, I have confidence I could do the same if Bowser somehow was made S tier. Which he won't be.

 

[Splebel]

Now I don't play Bowser competitively, only for fun, but what if they buffed Bowser's tough guy attribute because it only works on a small number of moves and only at real low percentages. It wouldn't solve his killing issues but would that be an appropriate buff?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Now I don't play Bowser competitively, only for fun, but what if they buffed Bowser's tough guy attribute because it only works on a small number of moves and only at real low percentages. It wouldn't solve his killing issues but would that be an appropriate buff?

>_>

<_<

What I've been saying for a long time.

Tough Guy buffs. Tough Guy buffs out the ass.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah! Buff the Tough Guy!

It's not tough enough!

 

[Splebel]

>_>

<_<

What I've been saying for a long time.

Tough Guy buffs. Tough Guy buffs out the ***.

I think it's because Sakurai doesn't want Bowser barreling through everything to get to his opponent like everything was Fox's laser. Although now that I typed that out it sounds pretty cool.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think it's because Sakurai doesn't want Bowser barreling through everything to get to his opponent like everything was Fox's laser. Although now that I typed that out it sounds pretty cool.

Doesn't need to be like that. Needs to be percentage based. Or stop making Sheik's needles pick up the heaviest character off the ground.

As it stands Tough Guy barely helps in like 3 matchups.

I want tough guy to either say no to every small projectile or at least double it's current knockback mitigation threshold.

Negating hitstun on pissy moves 4% or below or make us essentially a walking gordo would be preferable.

Only time I feel tough is when I am Giga Bowser. That frame data.

 

[Splebel]

Doesn't need to be like that. Needs to be percentage based. Or stop making Sheik's needles pick up the heaviest character off the ground.

As it stands Tough Guy barely helps in like 3 matchups.

I want tough guy to either say no to every small projectile or at least double it's current knockback mitigation threshold.

Negating hitstun on pissy moves 4% or below or make us essentially a walking gordo would be preferable.

Only time I feel tough is when I am Giga Bowser. That frame data.

True, it was an exaggeration on my part. I was thinking either have more moves be affected by it or having tough guy last longer on moves that are affected by it. Although something that would be interesting is it negates hitstun on moves that do up to 20% when bowser is at zero damage and then it scales down and stops at like 50% where you will only block hitstun on moves doing 5% or less.

 

[S_B]

Sometimes this is stage or positioning dependent, but while 80% of the cast might be an exaggeration I agree with the general assertion

I assumed he was exaggerating for comedic effect, personally.

As long as Bowser has trouble landing, no way to combo-break with a frame 3-4 nair or a movement option, and a frame 4 spot/airdodge, he's in no danger of being overpowered. Besides, though it won't happen, I'd be happy for him to be overpowered. I don't play Bowser because I crave being a low tier hero. I just like playing Bowser. Plenty of people played pre-patch Diddy with no remorse whatsoever, I have confidence I could do the same if Bowser somehow was made S tier. Which he won't be.

This.

Again, Bowser is in no danger of being overpowered, barring Sakurai doing something unprecedented like deciding to bake all of his customs into his existing B moves by holding vs. tapping vs. double tapping the button or something.

If a combo throw would be too much damage, then give him a killing throw outright. Zard has both a killing throw AND a combo throw and he still hasn't taken S-tier yet or anything.

I just suggest combo throws first because they're just THAT much further out of reach of casual players than a killing throw, and I want Bowser to be competitive, but not braindead...

And let's remember something else: for all the hype around the ding-dong, how often to we see DKs (even like M2K) taking tournaments?

Even if they nerfed the piss out of ZSS and Sheik tomorrow, that still leaves a whole pile of bad matchups for Bowser to contend with...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser has a kill throw. It's called Flying Slam. Except it don't work reliably.

 

[S_B]

Bowser has a kill throw. It's called Flying Slam. Except it don't work reliably.

If klaw had the range and speed of Bowser's pivot grab, then I'd wholeheartedly agree.

His pivot and dash grabs being so amazing are what would make a kill throw/followup so useful him, really.

As I've said in other threads, I'm all for buffing Bowser with something more original than a throw followup, but it also can't buff him in casual play so that badly limits our options.

I mean, even better frame data would be a direct buff to casual play, though most casual players wouldn't realize it consciously (still want a frame 3-4 combo breaker, though...).

 

[MagiusNecros]

I really think Shellguard on all shell attacks, and buffing Tough Guy threshold is what we need the most.

Alongside that B reverse Fortress and can't hit **** Flying Slam nonsense.

But we all know what these patches ever change so rip us.

 

[S_B]

I really think Shellguard on all shell attacks, and buffing Tough Guy threshold is what we need the most.

Alongside that B reverse Fortress and can't hit **** Flying Slam nonsense.

But we all know what these patches ever change so rip us.

I would like to see the general issues fixed (like not snapping to ledge when facing away), but shellguard may not do all that much in competitive but would definitely buff him in casual.

As would tough guy to an extent, but not as much as simply making all of his shell attacks win trades.

Competitive players are already pretty good about either shielding or not challenging Bowser's attacks where he's in his shell.

I mean, how often do you see a comp player attempt to hit Bowser's u-smash from above?

 

[MrEh]

If they're not gonna give Bowser a combo thow, they need to give him a throw that properly sets up into non-guaranteed traps.

That would be awesome.

 

[S_B]

If they're not gonna give Bowser a combo thow, they need to give him a throw that properly sets up into non-guaranteed traps.

That would be awesome.

Yes, a 50/50 would also be just fine, too.

Again, folks, I don't think we should be even remotely worried about an OP Bowser.

Look at everything DK has and he still hasn't climbed into A-tier:
-A spammable B-air with next to no landing lag
-A shield breaking option that is nowhere near as punishable as bomb
-Amazing aerial mobility, allowing him to leap in quickly and catch enemies off guard (especially with that Bair which is also a godsend for ledgeguarding), which also allows him to drift in and out of range of attacks at the ledge for better recovery (if Bowser holds away from the ledge to avoid an attack, he's not going to make it back anyway)
-A cargo throw that allows him to carry someone off the side of the stage and then either attempt to stage spike them or throw them off the side of the screen while being much closer to it
-The ding-dong, or any number of obscenely damaging u-throw followups (he has a 67% combo on Ike that M2K found!)
-A chargeable KO option with super armor on it
-A great poke with Dtilt
-4 moves that spike, none of which require DK to SD in the process
-Friggin' MEW...TWO...KING maining him!

...and he's still not making it into many top 10 lists.

Is Bowser really in danger of being OP with a combo throw?

 

[MagiusNecros]

One spike and Bowser is done. One combo we are already at effectively half health. Outside of a jab we have to rely on punishs.

Bowser Bomb being preferred. Dropkick of Destruction can be grabbed out of, shielded, can miss and leave us vulnerable, is predictable, and has limited use outside of mindgames.

Our Command Grab can be a Command miss.

Fact is though we hit hard it is difficult to get a hit in when the top tiers have speed moderate power or the ability to pile damage up the wazoo, can survive or completely avoid spike attempts, can b reverse, have good hitboxes on all their moves, and have a character defining trait that works and helps them out in many situations unlike Tough Guy(most of the attacks that proc it aren't really used anyway). We are also huge and an easy target for projectiles and a lot of attacks.

So if we got a combo throw? No not OP at all. But I think if they returned our Klaw as it was to us we would complain less since that move was what kept opponents from putting us at the edge. Not only did we have intimidating stage presence but we were really covering a BIG weakness.

 

[S_B]

Also, I forgot (and editied in) that DK has 4 moves that spike without requiring the opponent to recover high in order to use them without SDing.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If we could jump out of Dair that would be pretty nasty.

Because our one spike move either kills 2 people or one person. Usually our death.