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Bowser's Most Needed Buff?

Jerodak

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In regards to fortress, I'd much rather just get the start-up iframes back if nothing else.

A better fast fall and 0 walk start up would be great too. As far as side b goes, might as well put brawl range back on it in the air, or reduce the aerial start up. It takes around 25 frames just to do a rising short hop klaw, which whiffs on almost the entire cast if they are just standing.

Adjusting as best as possible for hitbox inconsistencies for other moves, like down b , would be great too. If it were always consistent, down b could be a way more threatening option in neutral, because then you could use it for whiff punishing. The risk when you miss would still be there, but now you wouldn't need to wait for your opponent to be stuck in an obvious cooldown for it to be viable.

Certain changes would need to be global, like lower shield regen rates, perhaps coupled with better base shield hp for slower characters. Along with possibly changes to how clashing works. Just a few things here and there which would more strongly favor the big guys. Speed is already naturally favored in virtually every situation, so a bit of careful bias here and there could help to balance things out. Unfortunately, changes like those may be outside of the scope of the game.

However, even with no changes at all from this point onwards, I am incredibly grateful for all of the changes Bowser did receive. He's debatably the nost changed character so far between Brawl and Smash 4, including being the only one with a changed victory theme between titles if I'm not mistaken, as well as the model changes and so on.

At this point there are other characters who could use adjustment quite a bit more than Bowser does, so if the team did forego further changes on Bowser to focus more energy on another character that needed it more, I would completely understand.

It's certainly still fun to envision the "ideal" Bowser though, and what kind of tools he might have.
 

kesterstudios

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Bowser could use some more range on his flying slam, but Bowser is probably fine as is. Besides there are other characters the devs need to focus on like Marth, Zelda, Marth, Samus, Marth, King Dedede, Marth, Jigglypuff, and others.

A Bowser made it pretty far yesterday at the Xanadu yesterday until getting ***** by ZSS in loser's semis. That's a huge improvement.
 

S_B

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Bowser could use some more range on his flying slam, but Bowser is probably fine as is. Besides there are other characters the devs need to focus on like Marth, Zelda, Marth, Samus, Marth, King Dedede, Marth, Jigglypuff, and others.

A Bowser made it pretty far yesterday at the Xanadu yesterday until getting ***** by ZSS in loser's semis. That's a huge improvement.
Sadly, we had Bowsers who were doing that pre-buff.

The Shell Shock definitely helps, but Bowser's most problematic matchups are still insanely problematic (Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosa).

At this point there are other characters who could use adjustment quite a bit more than Bowser does, so if the team did forego further changes on Bowser to focus more energy on another character that needed it more, I would completely understand.
If you include nerfs under the "adjustment" category, then yes, definitely.

The biggest buff to Bowser right now would be a nerf to top tiers.
 
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kesterstudios

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Sadly, we had Bowsers who were doing that pre-buff.

The Shell Shock definitely helps, but Bowser's most problematic matchups are still insanely problematic (Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosa).



If you include nerfs under the "adjustment" category, then yes, definitely.

The biggest buff to Bowser right now would be a nerf to top tiers.
its different this time. dk got the cargo up throw buff and he still does better in tournaments. I mean average joe who played dk made it to losers finals, but of course ZSS at the Xanadu yesterday.
 
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S_B

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its different this time. dk got the cargo up throw buff and he still does better in tournaments. I mean average joe who played dk made it to losers finals, but of course ZSS.
I know it's better, but LeTroof had made it to grand finals at least once with Bowser pre-buff. It wasn't impossible.

But yeah, the real problem is that the top tiers still destroy most everyone and until that changes, no amount of buffing the lower tiers is going to help.
 

kesterstudios

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I know it's better, but LeTroof had made it to grand finals at least once with Bowser pre-buff. It wasn't impossible.

But yeah, the real problem is that the top tiers still destroy most everyone and until that changes, no amount of buffing the lower tiers is going to help.
I was talking about Ash and that's the farthest hes ever gotten at a Xanadu. Le troof wasn't there.
 
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Xandercosm

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Basically nerf Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Pikachu, and maybe Sonic. Buff Jiggs, Zelda, Samus, Ganondorf, Dedede, etc. I think if they do that, Smash 4 will feel genuinely balanced and be much more fun for competitive players.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Basically nerf Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Pikachu, and maybe Sonic. Buff Jiggs, Zelda, Samus, Ganondorf, Dedede, etc. I think if they do that, Smash 4 will feel genuinely balanced and be much more fun for competitive players.
In Sheik's case, a "nerf" would turn into a "buff" because she could combo more reliably at higher percents...but have more trouble killing.
 

Xandercosm

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In Sheik's case, a "nerf" would turn into a "buff" because she could combo more reliably at higher percents...but have more trouble killing.
I never said a nerf to kill power, Mr. Assumption. Here's my list of the things that need to be nerfed about her:
  • Significantly nerf power of needles (more charge time, more endlag, less hitstun).
  • Make D-throw have a much higher KBG so it can only combo into U-air at lower percents.
  • Make F-throw have a bit higher KBG so that she cant do F-throw to bouncing fish as consistently.
Those are all the changes I would make, really. Those wouldn't kill her, they would just take away her brokenness.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I never said a nerf to kill power, Mr. Assumption. Here's my list of the things that need to be nerfed about her:
  • Significantly nerf power of needles (more charge time, more endlag, less hitstun).
  • Make D-throw have a much higher KBG so it can only combo into U-air at lower percents.
  • Make F-throw have a bit higher KBG so that she cant do F-throw to bouncing fish as consistently.
Those are all the changes I would make, really. Those wouldn't kill her, they would just take away her brokenness.
Those would be great, actually. She'd probably still be the best character, but people would have more of a chance against her.
 
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S_B

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I think the "Tinder Combo" needs to go, first and foremost.

Sheik has an easy enough time confirming without being able to Fair string people from one end of the stage to the other.

ZSS also badly needs to be toned down...
 

kesterstudios

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I think the "Tinder Combo" needs to go, first and foremost.

Sheik has an easy enough time confirming without being able to Fair string people from one end of the stage to the other.

ZSS also badly needs to be toned down...
I think the only that needs to be nerfed to ZSS is her up b, it needs a knockback growth decrease. I mean being able to kill bowser at like 40% from an up b by the ceiling is really unfair and that was from watching the last Xanadu losers semis with Vabengals ZSS and Ash's Bowser.
 

S_B

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I think the only that needs to be nerfed to ZSS is her up b, it needs a knockback growth decrease. I mean being able to kill bowser at like 40% from an up b by the ceiling is really unfair and that was from watching the last Xanadu losers semis with Vabengals ZSS and Ash's Bowser.
Yeah, her up+B is also nowhere near punishable enough to justify how much KB it has. She can drift left or right by a fair margin while she lands, thus ensuring that you have only a 50/50 chance of charging an Fsmash in the right direction.

It's not like Bowser's up+B landing on stage where you basically have time to stop beside him and hit him with nearly any smash attack before he can shield (and aerial fortress doesn't kill at all).
 

Xandercosm

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Actually, I would venture to say that ZSS is more overtly OP than Sheik is. The only reasons Sheik is the best, is that she has a more oppressive game overall, as well as ZSS having a bad grab. If ZSS had a better grab, she would surely be #1. Honestly, her U-special is one of the weirdest moves in the game. Why does it go farther than Mario's and KO at 40%? Just think about that for a second. It's one of the reasons why I think Sakurai and his team are absolutely clueless at times...
 
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