Bowser v1.0.4 changes

[Raiden mk-II]

A list of changes found by pBowser players (Sakurai/Nintendo/whoever refuses to provide a patch changelog) for v1.0.4, made live this week:

*Bowsercide is gone, of course. However, it is glitchy since certain stages result in either a Sudden Death situation or a death for Bowser.
*Forward Smash has actually been BUFFED in power by 1%. Fully charged 24% (sourspot) and 34% (sweet spot). Yes. Make the most powerful smash in the game even more powerful since it is indeed hard to land.
*Fortress cancelling is gone.

 

[BSL]

I just don't understand the bowsercide change

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I just don't understand the bowsercide change

I think it's to do away with cheese wins on final stock situations. They should have removed control of Bowsercide from BOTH players and just let Bowser jump straight up to slam his opponent straight down to the ground. There. No more Bowsercide. The move's hard to land enough as it is already.

 

[Zigsta]

Didn't play at all yesterday so haven't tested anything yet.

Don't get the Bowserside patch at ALL. If you're honestly dumb enough to play close to the ledge against a Bowser on your last life and you roll or hold shield, you made a dumb move and deserve to be punished. I'd have understood more if Ganoncide got nerfed but it didn't...just Bowser. Yeah, that's great balancing, Sakurai.

Has anyone tested if jumping out of Bowserside is still in/still insanely easy? If so, this nerf only means that noobs can't Bowserside.

 

[Hitman JT]

Didn't play at all yesterday so haven't tested anything yet.

Don't get the Bowserside patch at ALL. If you're honestly dumb enough to play close to the ledge against a Bowser on your last life and you roll or hold shield, you made a dumb move and deserve to be punished. I'd have understood more if Ganoncide got nerfed but it didn't...just Bowser. Yeah, that's great balancing, Sakurai.

Has anyone tested if jumping out of Bowserside is still in/still insanely easy? If so, this nerf only means that noobs can't Bowserside.

According to someone else, THE OPPONENT can actually jump out of the Bowsercide. If they're Villager or something, they can make it back and only Bowser dies. Let that sink in for a moment...

 

[Zigsta]

LMAOOOOO that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[kro_]

Didn't play at all yesterday so haven't tested anything yet.

Don't get the Bowserside patch at ALL. If you're honestly dumb enough to play close to the ledge against a Bowser on your last life and you roll or hold shield, you made a dumb move and deserve to be punished. I'd have understood more if Ganoncide got nerfed but it didn't...just Bowser. Yeah, that's great balancing, Sakurai.

Has anyone tested if jumping out of Bowserside is still in/still insanely easy? If so, this nerf only means that noobs can't Bowserside.

You can Bowsercide someone from the middle of the stage

I cancelled Bowser's F-smash with Ike's first hit of his jab, so it has lost either a lot or all of its armor

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I cancelled Bowser's F-smash with Ike's first hit of his jab, so it has lost either a lot or all of its armor

Bowser's F-Smash never had armor. It has disjointed hurtboxes that his feet are intangible. The rest of his body is still vulnerable. It seems they made his feet tangible this time around. At least F-Smash's damage and extreme knockback and low % KO potential is left untouched.

Now if they removed the shellguard from his Up-Smash, I will be disappointed...

 

[Zigsta]

You can Bowsercide someone from the middle of the stage

I cancelled Bowser's F-smash with Ike's first hit of his jab, so it has lost either a lot or all of its armor

If you can legitimately take your opponent offstage from the MIDDLE of the stage with Klaw then either Bowser has a MASSIVE lead or your opponent doesn't know how to control Klaw in midair and deserves to die.

 

[-Kagato-]

I'm glad f-smash is unchanged, but as I said in the Bowsercide topic, this is the most ridiculous BS I have ever seen. Villager and Rob can both just casually kill Bowser with his own move and float back to the ledge. Possibly even Luigi as well.

Yeah, until this atrocity is fixed, I suggest we start getting ourselves used to Koopa Claw.

 

[MagiusNecros]

How the new Bowsercide works is that it killed the opponent and left you still alive at the bottom where you could jump and attempt to recover. Now what these dweebs did was reverse this scenario where Bowser automatically dies(despite Bowser being ON TOP of the opponent) and the opponent can jump and attempt to recover. Which in the case of Kirby, DDD, and Meta Knight if you spam your jumps and use your recovery then they will basically always survive. Also the amount of control the opponent has is still the same. So basically it is a huge risk move for your 18% damage and endgame kill move.

So you basically only use the Bowsercide tactic when you are a stock above and winning, but if you are winning you don't need to resort to that at all.

So basically super nerf.

 

[Mr. Bones]

If they nerfed F-smash's damage or knockback and left it at that atrocious speed...

I would boycott Nintendo forever. If you get hit by F-smash, you deserve to die.

Bowsercide nerf disappoints me, but I didn't use it that much in all honesty. I guess I can understand leaving Ganoncide alone since he's pretty awful anyway.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

No, about fsmash. Everyone just go test it. I tested it in friendlies and it does 24% vs. the old 23%. Full charge does 34% vs. the old 33%. It's a 1% buff to fsmash.

Besides, the real killer, Bowser Bomb, is untouched.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I am fine with the F-smash damage reduction. I do not want F-smash's knockback to be nerfed. EDIT: just noticed @ UltimaLuminaire 's post right after I posted this. Even with the damage BUFF to F-smash, the move pretty much requires a hard read to land anyway, especially fully charged. An example of what I can do with F-smash against opponents:

 

[energonkid]

Bowsercide neff sucks. I guess I'll have to live with it, though. At least WFT got some minor buffs.

 

[Flayl]

CPU Sheik just jumped out of my Bowsercide. LOL

 

[Kinslayer]

Didn't play at all yesterday so haven't tested anything yet.

Don't get the Bowserside patch at ALL. If you're honestly dumb enough to play close to the ledge against a Bowser on your last life and you roll or hold shield, you made a dumb move and deserve to be punished. I'd have understood more if Ganoncide got nerfed but it didn't...just Bowser. Yeah, that's great balancing, Sakurai.

Has anyone tested if jumping out of Bowserside is still in/still insanely easy? If so, this nerf only means that noobs can't Bowserside.

Gannon side is harder to hit than bowerscide. What's up with all the bichin? Bowerscide wasn't really all that fair to melee based characters who had to fight bowser inside that range on a consistent basis.... You calling someone stupid for fighting bowser near an edge on their last stock shows how much it needed to Be hit. While corners of stages aren't some where you wants to be anyway, bowser made it impossible to be there without a huge risk of dying from a move you can't block, can be semi option selected, or punished with. Any get up attack results in immediate death if read right and that is stupid as hell. Especially considering how fast everyone can act out of shield

 

[Flayl]

The range on (default) klaw is really small. Staying "inside that range" needs millimetric precision.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Custom Dash Klaw is just as bugged as Klaw (Kagato can also confirm). Sometimes will die first, sometimes sudden death.

@ Kinslayer Chill. Zigsta wasn't being serious about calling other people stupid. He's talking about a competitive level. We're not particularly salty about the loss of Bowsercide, at least not those of us that know all of Bowser's tools.

@ Flayl It has about the same range as Bowser's standing grab, it's just that Bowser's dash grab slides him forward and makes the range seem awesome (and we're not even talking about pivot grab). Oh, and the Klaw can also wiff someone within kissing range because the hit box doesn't start at Bowser's chest at all. Then again, dash grab can send you past the opponent you intend to grab, so learning the ins and outs is what it's all about.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Bowser Bomb with all its shield-breaking glory is untouched? Wise decision, considering it is a very laggy move.

 

[Kinslayer]

Custom Dash Klaw is just as bugged as Klaw (Kagato can also confirm). Sometimes will die first, sometimes sudden death.

@ Kinslayer Chill. Zigsta wasn't being serious about calling other people stupid. He's talking about a competitive level. We're not particularly salty about the loss of Bowsercide, at least not those of us that know all of Bowser's tools.

I'm not angry so I don't need to chill. I'm just saying it's still an 18% move and it kills! That auto win if scooped stuff was a pain. Fun but a pain

 

[-Kagato-]

Custom Dash Klaw is just as bugged as Klaw (Kagato can also confirm). Sometimes will die first, sometimes sudden death.

@ Kinslayer Chill. Zigsta wasn't being serious about calling other people stupid. He's talking about a competitive level. We're not particularly salty about the loss of Bowsercide, at least not those of us that know all of Bowser's tools.

I'm salty about it. I wanna use my side-b on the last stock, bowsercide or not.

Still, this'll probably give me the opportunity to learn other methods so that when they fix Bowsercide (and they will considering how buggy it is now), I'll be that much better of a player. Down-b especially is proving to be quite the useful punishing tool as many of you can attest to.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Down-b especially is proving to be quite the useful punishing tool as many of you can attest to.

Especially grounded Bowser Bomb. I am training myself to use that as much as I use Fortress out of shield. The best part about it is that if it hits right, you can break your opponent's shield with it, resulting in a free major attack.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Raiden mk-II Yup. MrEh was talking about its merits over punishing with side b, or anything else for that matter. I started practicing punishment with grounded bomb in earnest after that. I wouldn't count on the shield break happening that often, though. Also, keep in mind that you can't cancel your initial dash frames into the down b. You may just want to dash grab or dash -> klaw in that situation, depending on enemy %. If they're at high %, just grab + pummel + throw. It'll deal as much if not more damage than klaw and it'll refresh your moves.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Speaking of changes you want to see in future patches for our favorite Koopa, what changes would you like to see that are reasonable?

Personally, I would like it if the priority of some of Bowser's laggier moves are near the top or at top. I am indifferent about Bowser Bomb being outprioritized by certain moves, since I don't use Bowser Bomb often while I am in the air over my opponents. Moves I would like to see made top priority are F-smash and D-smash.

I also would like it if Fortress had the invincibility frames that it had in Melee, but that may make the move broken with this new buffed-up Bowser.

What do you think of there being autoguard on Bowser's F-smash? While that will have the chance to make that move overpowered, it is to offset the annoying property on some characters' counter moves. That property is the ability of those counter moves to reflect the damage AND the knockback of the countered move back to the attacker. I find that mechanic to be rather broken and annoying, since it encourages people to spam counters like crazy. At least counter-happy people are easily baited and punished, but this is something about Smash 4's new mechanics I cannot stand.

Would Bowser benefit by having autoguard on more of his moves?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser should have any part of his shell negate all small projectiles IMO. I would love permanent super armor on the shell period but that ain't gonna happen.

I really wish Tough Guy was a lot more prevalent. Not many attacks on Bowser make use of it. It says he doesn't flinch but he obviously slows down when Tough Guy activates.

 

[S_B]

Gannon side is harder to hit than bowerscide. What's up with all the bichin? Bowerscide wasn't really all that fair to melee based characters who had to fight bowser inside that range on a consistent basis.... You calling someone stupid for fighting bowser near an edge on their last stock shows how much it needed to Be hit. While corners of stages aren't some where you wants to be anyway, bowser made it impossible to be there without a huge risk of dying from a move you can't block, can be semi option selected, or punished with. Any get up attack results in immediate death if read right and that is stupid as hell. Especially considering how fast everyone can act out of shield

I definitely agree that Ganon deserves his win when he does it.

Problem with this situation, though, is that it's SO easy to avoid being Bowsercided that this nerf seems more than a bit heavy handed.

1. The move has decreased range from Brawl, meaning it's even harder to land it, especially in the air where it has the most potential to Bowsercide.

2. Grabs no longer get super armor on connect, meaning that, if someone aerials a Bowser player just as the klaw connects, they'll be released from it.

3. Both players can steer the move as it rises to determine where it lands, with the person who has less damage being the one primarily in control (though the other player can still influence it). This gives a LOT of control to the victim, who can now choose to use this move to KILL BOWSER if he uses it against an enemy while he's at a high %.

What they should've done is just had it rise and come down in the same place, or better yet, give us back the melee klaw...

Also, I'd like for his D-smash to either have extended range or super armor. RIght now, it's the definition of completely useless because fortress OOS is a superior move in every way (unless there's been a recent discovery I'm not aware of)...

Okay, so it does 5% more damage if EVERY hitbox lands, but the fact that it has startup time AND Bowser can't move while doing it makes it a poor choice in nearly any situation. Plus, you have so many BETTER choices to punish with...

 

[Karsticles]

They need to fix Flying Slam pronto. This is not okay.

Also, fix his up taunt by returning it to Brawl status.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Yeah, they really need to give us a reason to use Dsmash for something more than a hard read with a little extra damage.

 

[Kinslayer]

I definitely agree that Ganon deserves his win when he does it.

Problem with this situation, though, is that it's SO easy to avoid being Bowsercided that this nerf seems more than a bit heavy handed.

1. The move has decreased range from Brawl, meaning it's even harder to land it, especially in the air where it has the most potential to Bowsercide.

2. Grabs no longer get super armor on connect, meaning that, if someone aerials a Bowser player just as the klaw connects, they'll be released from it.

3. Both players can steer the move as it rises to determine where it lands, with the person who has less damage being the one primarily in control (though the other player can still influence it). This gives a LOT of control to the victim, who can now choose to use this move to KILL BOWSER if he uses it against an enemy while he's at a high %.

What they should've done is just had it rise and come down in the same place, or better yet, give us back the melee klaw...

Also, I'd like for his D-smash to either have extended range or super armor. RIght now, it's the definition of completely useless because fortress OOS is a superior move in every way (unless there's been a recent discovery I'm not aware of)...

Okay, so it does 5% more damage if EVERY hitbox lands, but the fact that it has startup time AND Bowser can't move while doing it makes it a poor choice in nearly any situation. Plus, you have so many BETTER choices to punish with...

I don't think bowser needs any more armor or anything else really other than what he has. He is really good at doing everything a character needs to even with the scoop changes.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Fortress cancel is gone. I'm gonna miss having free neutral state in mid stage.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Fortress cancel is gone. I'm gonna miss having free neutral state in mid stage.

If it's the one where you need to land on a specific frame then it's not much we lost since timing was super strict.

 

[Asdfchris]

Hello, i've made a list of characters that can survive the new bowser's side b. I already posted this on reddit but i can't link because i don't have enough posts, so i will copy paste it here in spoiler.

Spoiler

The testing was done on Gerudo Valley's omega form, and when customs were necessary we tried using the one that went highest. We also used walljumps for the characters that have that ability.

• Luigi with custom Down B (doesn't need walljump)
• Wario with custom Up B (or with the fart i suppose)
• Game&Watch with custom Up B
• Sheik without customs (with walljump)
• Toon link with custom Up B (very close without, must use a walljump)
• Pit&DPit without customs
• Kirby without customs
• Dedede without customs
• Falco without customs (with walljump)
• Pikachu without customs
• Lucario without customs, walljump needed only if less than 10% damage, if higher walljump not required
• Greninja without customs
• Duck Hunt without customs (with walljump)
• ROB without customs
• Captain Falcon without customs (with walljump)
• Villager without customs
• Olimar without customs, even with 3 pikmins (we tested even 3 purple pikmin to be sure there wasn't some hidden weight stat)
• Wii Fit Trainer without customs, albeit it requires heavy smashing and a walljump. Hurricane hoop can do it without walljump.
• Shulk without customs, but needs the jump art and is still hard to do.
• Pacman without custom
• Megaman witouth custom (with walljump), with customs there is no need to walljump
• Sonic without custom (with walljump)

Characters that got very close but didn't grab the ledge even using their best custom. This may be because we couldn't mash enough or got just very unlucky:

• Rosalina
• Bowser (even though people could grab it before the patch, we couldn't get it off)
• Zelda
• Ness may be able to do it by doing the second recovery trick by hitting the wall, but we were not able to
• Diddy kong
• Fox

 

[Anragon]

The nerfs are negligible to be honest

 

[MagiusNecros]

Other then Flying Slam not having any intimidation on last stock anymore and Fsmash being buffed by 1% in damage nothing about Bowser has changed. He is still a solid character. Only real flaw he has is having a harder time dealing with projectiles. Other then that he is pretty solid.

 

[B!squick]

Gannon side is harder to hit than bowerscide. What's up with all the bichin? Bowerscide wasn't really all that fair to melee based characters who had to fight bowser inside that range on a consistent basis.... You calling someone stupid for fighting bowser near an edge on their last stock shows how much it needed to Be hit. While corners of stages aren't some where you wants to be anyway, bowser made it impossible to be there without a huge risk of dying from a move you can't block, can be semi option selected, or punished with. Any get up attack results in immediate death if read right and that is stupid as hell. Especially considering how fast everyone can act out of shield

I'm sorry, are you trying to argue that it's more fair now that it's unfair for Bowser? Because Bowser can't afford to use Klaw at all now when he's behind near the edge of the stage and especially if he's on his last stock.


Also, here's another benefit of Nintendo not bothering with something as silly as "patch notes": What we may think are new bugs introduced by the patch COULD be the changes working as intended. We don't know. We can't know. Because Nintendo is secretly run by the children they market towards. I find that more believable than anyone over the age of 13 being this stupid.

If I hadn't already bought Smash 4 WiiU, I'd seriously not buying it. I don't want these lunatics getting my money anymore than the panhandlers in my area.

 

[Kinslayer]

I'm sorry, are you trying to argue that it's more fair now that it's unfair for Bowser? Because Bowser can't afford to use Klaw at all now when he's behind near the edge of the stage and especially if he's on his last stock.


Also, here's another benefit of Nintendo not bothering with something as silly as "patch notes": What we may think are new bugs introduced by the patch COULD be the changes working as intended. We don't know. We can't know. Because Nintendo is secretly run by the children they market towards. I find that more believable than anyone over the age of 13 being this stupid.

If I hadn't already bought Smash 4 WiiU, I'd seriously not buying it. I don't want these lunatics getting my money anymore than the panhandlers in my area.

It's not unfair for bowser... How the hell is an option selectable command grab that pops you for near 20% and can kill you unfair just because you can't auto win a stock near an edge? That's so dumb to say. Especially when you can still use the air to ground whiff cancel to bait moves, still do a ton of damage, and can still put the fear of God into people. You saying that it isn't fair for bowser is stupid becauseit shows you obviously don't comprehend how unfair it was for everyone else. No reason i hell I should be able to lose a stock literally at 0% because you can bomb me off the side. Youre complaining not because bowser can't use it when you're on your last stock. You're complaining because bowser can't throw it out like an idiot and get overly rewarded when it finally hits...

 

[B!squick]

Maybe because it's an auto win for the opponent and they can control it if they have the lead? That might be something. If you were getting Bowsercided at 0% you should probably aim for the stage, bro.

 

[Kinslayer]

Maybe because it's an auto win for the opponent and they can control it if they have the lead? That might be something. If you were getting Bowsercided at 0% you should probably aim for the stage, bro.

You can use it to punish and they don't have all control they have the primary influence. Now you have to be smart about using it to punish.

Also it all depends on where you get hit with the side b at. You aren't guaranteed to keep the stage if you and bowser are both at 0. Like I said man, you aren't interested in what's best for the competetive scene. You're only interested in what's best for you. Bowser already has an obscenely fast run which is faster than he should be (he has never displayed this much speed even in a mario game), a good long reaching projectile, amazing normals, armored normals, armor on his neutral from certain hits, and some of the easiest roll punishes this game has ever seen. It takes next to nothing to punish anything with bowser. So, man solidify your bowser game and maybe you wouldn't see it really isn't such a loss.

 

[B!squick]

Damn. You make it sound like Bowser is unstoppable. How many tournaments did he win pre-patch? I know Rend won recently and probably would have lost if his opponent didn't SD. What others?