Bowser v1.0.4 changes

[S_B]

I don't think bowser needs any more armor or anything else really other than what he has. He is really good at doing everything a character needs to even with the scoop changes.

I think that, as Bowser slides down the tier list, this opinion will change.

D-smash is a completely worthless move. You literally should NEVER use it because there's so much greater of a chance that it'll get shielded and punished than fortress. It also has garbage for killing power and you will literally NEVER land it charged against an even partway decent opponent.

I also maintain that his down+B should have SA on the descent. It makes zero sense that anyone can do anything that interrupts this move, including Link tossing bombs, anyone with a sword, hammer, etc. The move already has TONS of risk in terms of the amount of recovery time it takes (unless you bomb to ledge, which can still be interrupted by the aforementioned and you're dead if you miss).

It's piles of stupid easy to avoid and, in a number of cases, it's the only reliable means of making it back to the ledge from the air if you're at the mercy of a good juggler.

I've seen the beginnings of players who know how to properly space against Bowser while heckling him with projectiles and it's only going to get worse as that projectile game develops further...

 

[WwwWario]

Speaking of something else than the Bowserciding, I (might) have found something. I might be completely wrong, but is the ending lag on Fair decreased slightly? I mean, short hop, or full hop, the lag is VERY short on both. I don't remember it being like this in 1.0.3, but I might be fully wrong here.

 

[Kinslayer]

Speaking of something else than the Bowserciding, I (might) have found something. I might be completely wrong, but is the ending lag on Fair decreased slightly? I mean, short hop, or full hop, the lag is VERY short on both. I don't remember it being like this in 1.0.3, but I might be fully wrong here.

No they are exactly the same as last version man.lol

@ S_B

No it shouldn't.. There is literally no reason for that at all other than the fact that you want him to have something absolutely broken. There is no reason bowser bomb should have armor. The move already does it's job effectively to the point where if you don't have a counter or a high reaching move that goes over your head you HAVE TO GET OUT THE WAY. Why should countering his BB be removed as an option By adding in super armor to an already good move? Just because you have issues with projectiles doesn't mean you need extra stuff. You're character has a weakness deal with it. Hell I main Marth and second this character Marth has issues with fast ****ers like sonic and im not saying speed up my tilts or give my jab more hitstun. Just learn to deal with your weaknesses.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I agree with @ Kinslayer 100%. Smash_Brother, you essentially want Bowser to have a broken move. Instead of complaining about your lack of matchup experience against projectile spammers, use that time to get better with said matchups. Hell, I fought a crazy good Pikachu player named Sakryd last night. This Pikachu is a master of zoning and punishing. Out of the 8 matches I fought against him, I managed to win 3 of them, one of them using the Bowser Bomb you complain about so much. Bowser Bomb is fine as is. @ MrEh disagrees with you. @ Kinslayer disagrees with you. @Mr. Bones disagrees with you. I disagree with you. Learn to deal with Bowser's weaknesses, like so many of us here have.

I am telling it as it is, but all I am seeing is a mediocre Bowser player who blames the character rather than his own lack of skill and experience, as well as fail to adapt at a metagame that is rapidly changing and evolving, especially since major changes came about in the recent v1.0.4 patch. No offense.

 

[Anragon]

A good character doesn't mean it makes the controller a good player.

 

[S_B]

The move already does it's job effectively to the point where if you don't have a counter or a high reaching move that goes over your head you HAVE TO GET OUT THE WAY. Why should countering his BB be removed as an option By adding in super armor to an already good move? Just because you have issues with projectiles doesn't mean you need extra stuff. You're character has a weakness deal with it. Hell I main Marth and second this character Marth has issues with fast ****ers like sonic and im not saying speed up my tilts or give my jab more hitstun. Just learn to deal with your weaknesses.

I agree with @ Kinslayer 100%. Smash_Brother, you essentially want Bowser to have a broken move. Instead of complaining about your lack of matchup experience against projectile spammers, use that time to get better with said matchups. Hell, I fought a crazy good Pikachu player named Sakryd last night. This Pikachu is a master of zoning and punishing. Out of the 8 matches I fought against him, I managed to win 3 of them, one of them using the Bowser Bomb you complain about so much. Learn to deal with your weakness, like so many of us here have.

We've already been through this, guys.

When I express an opinion, I'm not saying it based SOLELY my own personal experience but rather my observations of Bowser in tournaments, for glory replay channel, etc., as well as observations of the metagame development in previous SSB games.

PLEASE stop insulting my intelligence by implying that I just need to "work on my matchups" when I'm not even TALKING about my own matchups...

Yes, being juggled by good players is going to be a problem for Bowser. In fact, Bowser is generally weak in the air since his approach options are all predictable. I SAW THIS HAPPEN in the Xanadu tournament, and for those of you saying "But Bowser won!", yeah, he did, and he played AMAZINGLY well, but the metagame is still very much in its infancy and it's not hard to spot the weaknesses that opponents are going to get better and better at exploiting.

That said, I still have hope that Bowser will remain mid to high-mid tier, making me NOT the most negative person on this forum so kindly don't start whining about THAT again...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

@ S_B

The rest of us: Working on our own Bowser skills so we can adapt to a rapidly changing metagame, and sharing our experiences with each other.

You: Oh no, Bowser is weak against projectiles. He is dropping in tier. Give him a broken Bowser Bomb.

You have a right to your opinion. However, you are completely unconstructive, and this is the EXACT REASON why so many people are on your case here. You're on the Bowser board. Help the rest of us develop his metagame instead of just focusing on Bowser's weaknesses.

but rather my observations of Bowser in tournaments, for glory replay channel, etc., as well as observations of the metagame development in previous SSB games.

Whenever I see any of those things, I look at what the other players do and say to myself, "Hey! That player did something I did not know about! Maybe I can use this for my own and/or share it with other Bowser players."

 

[S_B]

@ S_B

The rest of us: Working on our own Bowser skills so we can adapt to a rapidly changing metagame, and sharing our experiences with each other.

You: Oh no, Bowser is weak against projectiles. He is dropping in tier. Give him a broken Bowser Bomb.

You have a right to your opinion. however, you are completely unconstructive. You're on the Bowser board. Help the rest of us develop his metagame instead of just focusing on Bowser's weaknesses.

Focusing on a character's weakness IS how you develop the metagame.

I'm surprised no one else posted this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgA6xWbMusM&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=74

HOMEWORK: everyone study every last second of this match and watch for the weaknesses as well as strengths.

There were some things I would've done differently. For example, there were a LOT of opportunities for Rend to fortress OOS that he didn't take when Duck was RIGHT on top of him and usually wound up getting punished or grabbed a moment later.

He also got KOed a number of times for trying to Bowser bomb or Dair back to the stage.

That said, I really love his walk-off game (which ultimately won him the tournament). Duck was a beast, but I can still spot areas where he could've put a bit more pressure on the projectile game, like hitting the can one more time when Rend is trying to airdodge past it so it'll hit him when the dodge finishes.

And on the subject of the bomb, I have no expectations that they're going to add SA to it, but the move is already HUGELY telegraphed and UNBELIEVABLY punishable. No one should be getting hit by it anyway, all SA would so is ensure that no one is going to interrupt Bowser as he tries to bomb to ledge (which is the ONLY safe place to be using the move anyway). And for the record, I DON'T mean it should have SA as Bowser rises with it, only once he's falling.

As for D-smash, SA would turn the move into a tool for punishing certain attacks against Bowser, but I'd honestly rather see its range extended or something. It's still too hard of a read to land reliably, especially when the opponent has to be RIGHT on top of Bowser to get hit by it already and fortress OOS is instantaneous.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Then please do less of the just listing of the character's weakness and more of how to cover those weaknesses, like you just did there.

I do agree Down Smash is a totally risky move to use, but Super Armor is totally unnecessary. Perhaps increase its range, or even give it a vacuum effect to suck players in. Why should I use a move that sacrifices mobility for a few extra % of damage over the grounded Fortress?

I would like it if Tough Guy was revised so that Bowser does NOT slow down too much when hit with attacks that do not make him flinch. It's annoying when Tough Guy is in effect against a jabby Little Mac and Bowser looks like he is moving through molasses in winter. Of course, Bowser should be slowed down, but not as much as it is currently in the game.

 

[S_B]

I do agree Down Smash is a totally risky move to use, but Super Armor is totally unnecessary. Perhaps increase its range, or even give it a vacuum effect to suck players in. Why should I use a move that sacrifices mobility for a few extra % of damage over the grounded Fortress?

Oh, I hadn't even thought about a vacuum effect.

Here's an idea: what if the front of his shell pulled enemies in while the back pushed players away? Thus, depending on which direction Bowser is facing, he could use it to push foes away from the ledge if he so chose.

I would like it if Tough Guy was revised so that Bowser does NOT slow down too much when hit with attacks that do not make him flinch. It's annoying when Tough Guy is in effect against a jabby Little Mac and Bowser looks like he is moving through molasses in winter. Of course, Bowser should be slowed down, but not as much as it is currently in the game.

NOW who's complaining?

But yeah, tough guy winds up being a liability by making Bowser enter "Matrix mode" so that even more hits can land on him while he slowly reaches out to grab whoever is hitting him. :\

 

[Raiden mk-II]

NOW who's complaining?

At least I am not saying it knocks him to low tier and Bowser Bomb should have Super Armor

 

[S_B]

At least I am not saying it knocks him to low tier and Bowser Bomb should have Super Armor

For the record, I don't think anyone is suggesting lack of SA is going to F-tier Bowser.

It's other characters REALLY figuring out their projectile games that's going to be the most problematic.

But hey, I still think Bowser has a chance of NOT going down the tier slide, especially after that tournament video.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

(he has never displayed this much speed even in a mario game)

Mario Galaxy, Mario Galaxy 2 Super Paper Mario, Mario Party series, New Mario Wii & Wii U, Mario 3D Land, Mario 3D World

 

[B!squick]

I can't wait until the next patch that makes meteors and spikes kill the user off the top. Makes as much sense as Bowser magically dying first during a Bowsercide.

 

[Shök]

Mario Galaxy, Mario Galaxy 2 Super Paper Mario, Mario Party series, New Mario Wii & Wii U, Mario 3D Land, Mario 3D World

Damn, you beat me to it. Haha.

Super Mario 64 (Fire Sea and Sky), etc.

 

[MagiusNecros]

This Bowser also takes a few notes from Bowser's Inside Story and he is pretty awesome there too. But yeah the old Bowser days are over. He is bigger, faster, and stronger.

 

[Hitman JT]

But yeah the old Bowser days are over. He is bigger, faster, and stronger too.

He's the first member, of the Koopa Krew.

.........couldn't resist :/

 

[MagiusNecros]

He's the first member, of the Koopa Krew.

.........couldn't resist :/

His Fire Breath fires in spurts! If he cooks ya...it's gonna hurt!

Yeah I'll shut up now.

 

[Karsticles]

I can't believe some people think Bowser Bomb would be OP with SA. The change would be a minor boon at best.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I can't believe some people think Bowser Bomb would be OP with SA. The change would be a minor boon at best.

Depends on when the super armor activates. Grounded, if it's on startup, it significantly increases the number of attacks that become unsafe against Bowser. Same logic behind nuking the invincibility on fortress startup, since it becomes an option against 1 frame jabs.

 

[Vysetron]

 

[MrEh]

Bowser Bomb should never have super armor ever. Removing counterplay from an otherwise balanced move is silly.

 

[Karsticles]

Depends on when the super armor activates. Grounded, if it's on startup, it significantly increases the number of attacks that become unsafe against Bowser. Same logic behind nuking the invincibility on fortress startup, since it becomes an option against 1 frame jabs.

Oh sure, but on the way down if would be fine.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Oh sure, but on the way down if would be fine.

What, so it can beat Rosalina? So you can sit on Villager and ZSS? I'm with MrEh. There's no way that buff should fly when the bomb already has spectacular priority and shield damage for the start-up and KO power that it has. It doesn't need to be a universal mega mixup on top of that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm hungry for buffs because I love Bowser, however the only glaring things that should be addressed are Bowser's dsmash (I'd prefer brawl's reduced end lag) and Koopinasia inconsistencies.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'd like Tough Guy to be buffed actually to extend activating to small projectiles. Or make Shellguard to stuff always active on the shell portion of Bowser. Would make approaching easier. As for Bowser Bomb I think Super Armor would be great only on the way down but startup(which is fast anyway) and the end of the move obviously have no super armor. Because in situations where someone attacks him on the way down from underneath either he gets hit out of the move or both characters get hit.

Doesn't DeDeDe have Armor on his Super Jump?

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I can confirm the 1% damage increase on the Forward Smash, specifically the 34% sweet spot fully charged hit. I fought against a Sheik in a local Smash match, and I landed a fully-charged sweet-spotted non-rage-mode Fsmash on Sheik, bringing her from 18% damage to 52% damage and a KO. This is the lowest KO percentage I've had yet. Now I know why people are afraid of a good Bowser in For Glory. I thought getting kills at 65% to 75% was low, but 52%?!

 

[MagiusNecros]

I can confirm the 1% damage increase on the Forward Smash, specifically the 34% sweet spot fully charged hit. I fought against a Sheik in a local Smash match, and I landed a fully-charged sweet-spotted Fsmash on Sheik, bringing her from 18% damage to 52% damage and a KO. This is the lowest KO percentage I've had yet. Now I know why people are afraid of a good Bowser in For Glory....

Play your cards right and Bowser can destroy people.

 

[S_B]

Depends on when the super armor activates. Grounded, if it's on startup, it significantly increases the number of attacks that become unsafe against Bowser. Same logic behind nuking the invincibility on fortress startup, since it becomes an option against 1 frame jabs.

Whenever I've advocated SA on the bomb, it's been when Bowser is actually descending with it.

And SA isn't overpowering when it's on a move that no one should ever be getting hit with anyway. Seriously, for the startup in the air, Bowser may as well send a text to the opponent saying "imma fall now, kk?".

As for the ground, no one is going to be hitting Bowser out of it if he lands the first hit anyway. All this would be is a guaranteed way for Bowser to get back to the stage.

I'd be happier with it if it had a bigger shockwave (like D3's stars) on landing to protect Bowser from ground attacks while recovering. As it stands, it's good for bombing to the ledge and not a whole lot else... Using it got Rend KOed a NUMBER of times.

It also suffers from the same issue as D-smash in that it's basically redundant, since Dair now does nearly the same thing faster with better recovery after landing and is safer to use if you get a hard read.

However, I expect they'll nerf bomb in the next patch to not break shields because too many scrubs were getting killed by it...

I'd like Tough Guy to be buffed actually to extend activating to small projectiles. Or make Shellguard to stuff always active on the shell portion of Bowser. Would make approaching easier.

I would love to see a Bowser that leaps backwards at projectile spammers to approach...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

If Bowser Bomb had half the windbox that Wind Bomb has, it'll be great.

I really hope that Bowser Bomb's ability to break shields will not be patched out. By that logic, they should remove the shield break on the Fire Emblem characters charged neutral B attack.

 

[S_B]

If Bowser Bomb had half the windbox that Wind Bomb has, it'll be great.

I really hope that Bowser Bomb's ability to break shields will not be patched out. By that logic, they should remove the shield break on the Fire Emblem characters charged neutral B attack.

We all hoped that Bowercide wouldn't be removed. By that logic, they should've removed it from Ganondorf, Kirby and D3 as well...

But yeah, a windbox would be great too, just anything to keep the move from being the most vulnerable pile of punishable garbage...

 

[-Kagato-]

Other than Bowsercide's nerf, I feel Bowser is perfectly fine and quite balanced enough already. He doesn't need to be touched anymore.

He's not overly good or bad. He's juuuuust right. To me, at least. Would love Melee fortress frames or Brawl's Flying Slam, but I'm happy enough with what I've got.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dedede and Kirby always would die first if you purposely chose to die to ensure most characters died too. Unlike Bowsercide when Dedede is a stock ahead and gets a Inhale on a foe off the ledge they generally can't react fast enough to survive. With Bowsercide 90% of the roster can make it back if just off to the ledge with wall jumps and recovery moves.

With Ganoncide there isn't any chance you are coming back from that. It's already over as Ganondorf has full control of where he goes.

Still the fact Bowser dies first while being on top of the opponent is criminal. Ganondorf is also on top.

I suspect the very first conquest with Bowser and whoever was to see what changes they were going to pull is what we have now.

As of the new Side B change it doesn't give us that intimidation we Bowser's needed for opponents to stay away from the edge. Which gives other characters free reign to be wherever they want. And Projectile characters love being at the edge.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

It also suffers from the same issue as D-smash in that it's basically redundant, since Dair now does nearly the same thing faster with better recovery after landing and is safer to use if you get a hard read.

Well, for one, you can't use DAir to punish off the ground, and the bomb practically IS a guaranteed method to reach the ledge unless you're fighting 2 or 3 characters out of the entire cast, not counting ourselves or FFA. That's the very definition of "fine as is." DAir redundancy is non-existent when it contains a draw-back animation and spike functionality that's situational but godly. Having the DSmash perform more damage as a reward for a hard read is okay, but it has the vulnerability of Megaman's DSmash without the KB scaling or range. Bowser spends the majority of the animation spinning uselessly. Compare that to the risk-reward of the bomb and the fact that a grounded bomb can still punish most openings on the ground without a hard read, to the point MrEh had recommended bombing instead of klawing if you would have been able to punish with klaw well before patch 1.0.4.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

And to do something no one expects, you can use grounded Bomb to edgeguard. I won a match against a Palutena who continually recovered low because of my edgeguarding. I waited for her to try to do a ledge attack. Once I baited her into doing so, I made her whiff by doing a grounded Bowser Bomb and landing right on top of her to take the stock and win the match.

 

[Hitman JT]

And to do something no one expects, you can use grounded Bomb to edgeguard. I won a match against a Palutena who continually recovered low because of my edgeguarding. I waited for her to try to do a ledge attack. Once I baited her into doing so, I made her whiff by doing a grounded Bowser Bomb and landing right on top of her to take the stock and win the match.

I've been doing this since release day. Thank you, new ledge mechanics

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Regarding Bowser differences in v1.0.4, I cannot find anything else. So, the summary thus far:

*RIP Bowsercide (2014-2014)
*The most powerful Smash attack in the game just got more powerfuller.
*Fortress cancelling is gone

Anyone else notice any key differences in v1.0.4 Bowser?

 

[S_B]

Well, for one, you can't use DAir to punish off the ground, and the bomb practically IS a guaranteed method to reach the ledge unless you're fighting 2 or 3 characters out of the entire cast, not counting ourselves or FFA. That's the very definition of "fine as is." DAir redundancy is non-existent when it contains a draw-back animation and spike functionality that's situational but godly. Having the DSmash perform more damage as a reward for a hard read is okay, but it has the vulnerability of Megaman's DSmash without the KB scaling or range. Bowser spends the majority of the animation spinning uselessly. Compare that to the risk-reward of the bomb and the fact that a grounded bomb can still punish most openings on the ground without a hard read, to the point MrEh had recommended bombing instead of klawing if you would have been able to punish with klaw well before patch 1.0.4.

The grounded bomb is a different story, but the aerial bomb is just an unbelievably punishable, laggier version of Dair.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE what grounded bomb can do, but aerial bomb gets beaten by both Links (sword AND bombs), Ike, Marth, Shulk, Lucina, Greninja, Little Mac (both of whom can counter it and destroy Bowser with it) and I'm pretty sure Rosalina can too.

I may also be forgetting some characters, but basically any disjointed hitbox will be able to juggle Bowser if he tries to use it.

I actually LOVE it when people try to counter my Usmash. They try to counter and Bowser's like "Yeah, that's cute...", usually allowing me to follow up with a grab. :D

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Since I know Bowser can take punishment, I sometimes spam Bomb in the air mostly to get back on the stage. I've found more success landing aerial Bomb to, oddly enough, cover my landings. This only works against hyperaggressive opponents who love to attack you where they think you'll land. Also, if you use aerial Bomb while you're in a magnifying glass, that will catch some opponents offguard. As long as there's a way to mitigate the highly telegraphed aerial bomb due to opponent mistakes, you'll have more success landing it.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Marth, Ike, and Lucina also suffer greatly if they counter and you use a grounded bomb. The initial hit box triggers the attack, but by the time it comes out, you're already above them and coming down. Was like this in Brawl, too.

 

[S_B]

Since I know Bowser can take punishment, I sometimes spam Bomb in the air mostly to get back on the stage. I've found more success landing aerial Bomb to, oddly enough, cover my landings. This only works against hyperaggressive opponents who love to attack you where they think you'll land. Also, if you use aerial Bomb while you're in a magnifying glass, that will catch some opponents offguard. As long as there's a way to mitigate the highly telegraphed aerial bomb due to opponent mistakes, you'll have more success landing it.

Yeah, the only real advantage Bowser has here is that he can generally take the punishment (depends on the character he's fighting, though).

Also, yeah, you can sometimes catch opponents with it if they're VERY aggressive and trying to chase you into the air, though one air dodge can avoid it and they can punish on the ground.

Marth, Ike, and Lucina also suffer greatly if they counter and you use a grounded bomb. The initial hit box triggers the attack, but by the time it comes out, you're already above them and coming down. Was like this in Brawl, too.

This is actually one of the reasons I love grounded bomb.