Bombs... :/

Downshift

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#1
Does anyone else think that Samus' bombs are, and always have been underwhelming?

I know they're a very loyal rendition of the bombs from the Metroid series, but they just make for an incredibly weak and situational Down B special move taking up a move slot on a character still fighting to make it past mid-tier after 5 games. They can't be aimed or picked up and thrown like Link's bombs, Snake's grenades, Mega Man's metal blade, or Diddy's bananas, ROB's gyro, etc. I basically only use them to stall or mix up landing with Samus since they can't really be used to recover anymore.
Probably the biggest, and possibly only, shortcoming with her bombs are their low damage and knockback. They only do about as much damage as the weaker missile, but don't have the homing functionality it has to make up for it. This means they are not threatening in and of themselves, unlike literally every other special move she has. Charge Beam is obviously threatening, Screw Attack makes people legit afraid to approach you from directly above, homing missiles can wall off approaches and clutter neutral, and super missiles have good damage and knockback making them a threat from a distance.
Bombs though? Nope.
Never really seen anyone that afraid of them, and I'm never even slightly concerned about them when playing against a Samus. If they were upgraded to the Mega Bomb from Smash4, or someting akin to the Power Bombs from Super Metroid, that'd make this attack actually useful rather than just situational. They'd need to do at least as much damage as Super Missile, or have a sweetspot or something with respectable knockback like Link's new timed bombs. I think it'd also be interesting to double down on their above average shield damage and have them instantly shield-break if they hit directly (= to Bowser's Down B).

So I'm wondering, do you guys think that any buffs to Samus' bombs would make the move OP? Is there a game balance reason this move has been so paltry in every game since 64 that I'm not aware of?
I'm especially curious what non-Samus mains think about this move and if it creates more trouble or deeper mindgames than I'm aware of.
 
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#3
Bombs were never much of a threat offensively, but they are essential to Samus' moveset when they can really buff her recovery, so....
They aren't really good in any game aside from 64 and Melee.
With that in mind, I don't think the move needs an offensive buff, but it needs to provide the great recovery boost it did back then, that's how it can be useful again.
 

BlackCephie

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#4
I love bombs. You can literally drop bombs all the way across the stage as a retreat and stuff rush ins. You can also start charging neutral b, and jump cancel into bomb as a mix up. Not to mention bomb drop off stage into utilt as an edgeguard. They also turn enemies around when hit on stage and can lead into charge shot follow ups. I use bombs throughout entire matches to great effect.
 

Downshift

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#6
It's not like bombs do a lot of damage in Metroid either...
Power Bombs do a TON of damage, and over a large area in every game they appear in.

There should be a way to drop both bombs and power bombs just like there's a way to fire homing missiles and super missiles by either tilting or smashing the stick.
This wouldn't be hard to do, I just don't think Sakurai cares about Metroid in the slightest. Literally the thematic opposite of Kirby and Kid Icarus.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#7
Bombs aren't supposed to be high damaging finishing moves. They are meant for edge guarding, some degree of stage control and potential setups into other attacks.

The Samuses make good use of them to edge guard opponents trying to come back to stage and to stuff anyone attempting to approach you. While it requires practice, you can follow Bombs into other moves depending on the situation. If they guard from a Bomb you can grab them or if you have a fully Charge Shot, you can follow up an explosion into it to break their shield.
Opponents shouldn't be fearing Bombs anyways; they should fear what you can follow up from them.
 

osby

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#8
Power Bombs do a TON of damage, and over a large area in every game they appear in.

There should be a way to drop both bombs and power bombs just like there's a way to fire homing missiles and super missiles by either tilting or smashing the stick.
This wouldn't be hard to do, I just don't think Sakurai cares about Metroid in the slightest. Literally the thematic opposite of Kirby and Kid Icarus.
Yep, there's no way Sakurai cares about Metroid, why would he add :ultridley::ultdarksamus: otherwise? They are obviously Kid Icarus picks. Like how Zero Suit :ultmetaknight: got in as his own character.
 

Downshift

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#9
Bombs aren't supposed to be high damaging finishing moves. They are meant for edge guarding, some degree of stage control and potential setups into other attacks.

The Samuses make good use of them to edge guard opponents trying to come back to stage and to stuff anyone attempting to approach you. While it requires practice, you can follow Bombs into other moves depending on the situation. If they guard from a Bomb you can grab them or if you have a fully Charge Shot, you can follow up an explosion into it to break their shield.
Opponents shouldn't be fearing Bombs anyways; they should fear what you can follow up from them.
I mean sure, I get that a really, really good, experienced, seasoned player can find a way to make use of a comparatively weak Down Special move. That type of player could make any move work in their favor.
Take Link's bombs that aren't really broken. If we took his bombs and removed the remote detonation, made them heavier so he could only throw them 1/4 as far, reduced the damage to 5% and the knockback so that it caused flinching at every percent but never a trip or knockdown.... Link mains would still lab it out and grind out a situational setup to lead into something one of his actual good moves could capitalize on.
Now if we took those same remote bombs and increased the thrown range to the full length of FD, the damage to 20% and knockback to kill at 90% at the edge of the stage, you could argue that they are now broken.

I feel like Samus bombs are the equivalent of weakened Link bombs I described, not the current bombs or the killer bombs I mentioned.
So really, if the bombs were buffed to break shields, kill at high percents, or we could choose to drop either normal bombs or the Mega Bomb custom move from Smash4 (tilt vs tap like how we choose missiles), do you think that would be OP? Unbalanced?
I just don't get why they're afraid to buff this move but kept adding new special moves like Snake's grenades or Simon's Holy Water. Is Charge Beam really so powerful that any strong supporting attack would push her over the top?
 
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Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik

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#10
. Like how Zero Suit :ultmetaknight: got in as his own character.
Oh god, why did you put this image into my head?
I mean sure, I get that a really, really good, experienced, seasoned player can find a way to make use of a comparatively weak Down Special move. That type of player could make any move work in their favor.
Bruh, what?

You really think that Samus bomb are that weak?

Bombs can be used for stalling in the air to recover (which, in a game where loads of recoveries were made worse - even some who were already bad -, air dodge were made worse and edguarding was made better in general, is a great thing to have) or mix your landing, setup your opponent into doing predictable decision (such as shielding the bomb, only to get, say, a full charge shot that deal big shield damages, followed by the bomb breaking said shield, which is BIG), edguarding since a well placed bombs can disrupt a opponent recovery and make them eat a free aerial (especially if you 2-frames them) or limit their option since bombs now explode on contact while charging your most powerful tool, Charge Shot. (seriously, this move is the one thing that keep Samus a threat at all time, especially now since you can charge it in the air and B-Reverse it)

That's alot of use for one move imo ,especially if you combine with Samus other tools, such as her missiles or, again, her charge shot. (Charge Shot is the name of the game)

Frankly, bombs are fine for what they are, if anything, I like other moves need getting some changes (such as F-Smash, her jab and her up Smash and probably a few other moves). As someone who have played all smash games and tried every character atleast once, you don't know what a weak special is until you played Puff and used her up B in all games that isn't named Ultimate, or Rollout too, or Bowser Jr Neutral B in Smash 4, good luck make those moves work in any way, casually or competivly.

That's not to say I would be against getting any buff for bombs, but I don't get why you underplay them like this, it's confusing is what I'm saying.
 
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#11
It'd be cool if Samus could charge Bomb so that she could drop five bombs at once. Originally, I thought maybe having a full Charge Shot and dropping Bomb could cause five to drop out, but then that wouldn't be such a good idea. Instead, perhaps Samus could charge Bomb to drop five. I know, I know, Metroid: Other M let her charge Bomb to use Power Bomb. It wouldn't be ridiculous if that happened. Just look at Link's Remote Bomb.
 

etano

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#12
I think that they could add a lot of improvements on Samus right now. But her bomb's are definitely underwhelming compared to other's. That is probably the area they could most improve on.
 
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#13
I think that they could add a lot of improvements on Samus right now. But her bomb's are definitely underwhelming compared to other's. That is probably the area they could most improve on.
That's because Samus can never, ever hurt herself with her own bombs. Their standalone reward has to be low to balance out their risk.

Power Bombs would also be very cheap with this in mind. Just look at what you can do with the Smart Bomb in this game.
 

Downshift

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#14
You really think that Samus bomb are that weak?

Bombs can be used for stalling in the air to recover (which, in a game where loads of recoveries were made worse - even some who were already bad -, air dodge were made worse and edguarding was made better in general, is a great thing to have) or mix your landing, setup your opponent into doing predictable decision (such as shielding the bomb, only to get, say, a full charge shot that deal big shield damages, followed by the bomb breaking said shield, which is BIG), edguarding since a well placed bombs can disrupt a opponent recovery and make them eat a free aerial (especially if you 2-frames them) or limit their option since bombs now explode on contact while charging your most powerful tool, Charge Shot. (seriously, this move is the one thing that keep Samus a threat at all time, especially now since you can charge it in the air and B-Reverse it)

That's alot of use for one move imo ,especially if you combine with Samus other tools, such as her missiles or, again, her charge shot. (Charge Shot is the name of the game)

Frankly, bombs are fine for what they are, if anything, I like other moves need getting some changes (such as F-Smash, her jab and her up Smash and probably a few other moves). As someone who have played all smash games and tried every character atleast once, you don't know what a weak special is until you played Puff and used her up B in all games that isn't named Ultimate, or Rollout too, or Bowser Jr Neutral B in Smash 4, good luck make those moves work in any way, casually or competitively.

That's not to say I would be against getting any buff for bombs, but I don't get why you underplay them like this, it's confusing is what I'm saying.
Yeah I think they're weak, but I said comparatively weak. Among all DownB specials in the game, I'd rank them a 3/10.
What I mean by that is that I think they've been deliberately nerfed out of fear that they'd be too powerful or something, and that's the part I just don't get. They obviously decided to buff them in Ultimate and what did they do? Gave them a proximity trigger to they explode on contact. That's something, but it just feels like a bare minimum placation buff.
They have their niche uses like any move, but they're just needlessly underwhelming and making this move do even twice as much damage would only serve to round out her kit and not come anywhere near making the move as broken.

When I'm playing against a Samus and they're trying to land by dropping bombs, it doesn't deter me in the slightest. She moves laterally maybe two character lengths, stalls predictably, and I can even get hit with a falling bomb, slightly flinch from the paltry knockback, and still hit her. In that appliation they're like an annoyance that only delay the inevitable. Granted Samus just isn't good at landing in general, the point is the bombs could be helping in that department if they had disruptive knockback, threatening damage or a larger hitbox, and they're just not.
As of right now (and basically how it's always been), you have to pull off things like you mentioned. "Well placed bomb + 2-frame", land a vertical attack and horizontal attack on the same shield (bomb + CS) to break it, and other difficult and situational tech that is easily avoided and therefore not reliable.

It'd be cool if Samus could charge Bomb so that she could drop five bombs at once. Originally, I thought maybe having a full Charge Shot and dropping Bomb could cause five to drop out, but then that wouldn't be such a good idea. Instead, perhaps Samus could charge Bomb to drop five. I know, I know, Metroid: Other M let her charge Bomb to use Power Bomb. It wouldn't be ridiculous if that happened. Just look at Link's Remote Bomb.
Yeah this would be cool also. Just hold DownB to charge it, release to either drop one, three or five bombs that roll and spread out like Super Metroid. Otherwise a single DownB input like we do now would yield the same single weak bomb.
It would be balanced by having long start up while charging but you could possibly drop three bombs off the ledge to edgeguard, or use them to land under the cover of a small carpet bombing. This would be good if all the bombs did the same minimal damage as the current bombs.
You could even do something like hold a direction while charging it to do something like this:
https://imgur.com/8PIRffW


Power Bombs would also be very cheap with this in mind. Just look at what you can do with the Smart Bomb in this game.
I imagine they'd just be as strong as the Mega Bomb from Samsh4's custom moves, or any of the Links' bombs.
 
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#15
I've been thinking of a Down-B revamp that involves the Morph Ball significantly.

Actually it consists of :ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus: to turn into Morph Ball, which allows bombs to become this form's standard attacks.
In this form both Samus have a much smaller hurtbox and better mobility, but in exchange is much more weak to knockback.
 
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Wiley

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#16
Bombs are great- Figure them out.

Ledge trapping (one of the best imo), recovery, small profile and more zone control.

Next time you face pichu only bomb and get back to me on how much you hate that m/u lol think of it like snake grenading nonstop.
 

Scottfrankd

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#18
Admittedly, bombs are something I forget to use, but they have plenty of utility and I've seen opponents use them very well against me. They prevent rush ins, have some recovery potential, they're an unexpected annoyance that may lead into some combos, or even give an opening for a charge shot.

I haven't tried it in Ultimate, but I remember breaking a Corrin's shield in Smash 4, moving them to the edge, bomb jumping over them and spiking with a Dair.

Just have to remember to use them...
 
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Downshift

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#20
The match will be boring and toxic- But yes. I mean... please mix up here and there for both your sanity.
I mean, I don't envision that working since Pichu pretty much only attacks from the air, but next time I'm getting batted around by that BS baby Hello Kitty, I might as well try it out...
 

Porygon2

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#21
I've been thinking of a Down-B revamp that involves the Morph Ball significantly.

Actually it consists of :ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus: to turn into Morph Ball, which allows bombs to become this form's standard attacks.
In this form both Samus have a much smaller hurtbox and better mobility, but in exchange is much more weak to knockback.
Had thoughts about this myself, but struggled to think how it would be balanced. The extra knockback is a good idea - Prime Pinball vibes.

I've also thought about a less extreme Morph Ball "stalling" mechanic. Tap down-b for normal bomb, hold it to stall in Morph Ball indefinitely without a bomb, or release b while keeping down held to drop a bomb and stay in Morph Ball afterward. While in ball form, attacking drops a(nother) bomb, and left/right inputs do a Boost Ball move with high chance to trip. Either action automatically pops Samus out of Morph Ball.

Bomb at shield > ball stall > boost backward > Charged Shot would be a reliable shield breaking string, and the ability to mix up standard bombs with ball stall in the air might open up some better bomb jumping options.
 
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#22
Bomb's combo just as well, if not better, than seeker missiles. If you aren't using bombs, you're handicapping Samus' potential.

seeker missile/bomb drop in neutral game to combo into an easy charge shot, grab, aerial.

drop a bomb as soon as the opponent grabs ledge= easy edgeguard/charge shot.

bomb+chargeshot is a guaranteed shield break, and the shield stun from bomb stops the charge shot from being able to be parried (I've tested this about 50 times and wasn't able to manage a single parry, if this is false let me know)
 

Dsull

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#23
ive been abusing bombs like crazy. I'd say theyre surprisingly good.
Theyre *** against people w/o any damage raked up (20ish) because the stun is small enough where they can just keep going usually. But shorthop bomb tilt away bomb again tilt away is a surprisingly good escape maneuver, ive rarely come across someone that can get through that if theyre damaged even a little. If they full jump or double jump over i have more than enough time to meet them with a Fair or Uair, which im finding have much better approach than before.

Awesome edgeguard too. If they are gonna get the ledge before you can go over it and drop one down, just jump above where they'd be if they climbed up and drop a bomb. If they jump, bomb in the face. If they climb up, bomb on the head. If they roll, you should already be there dropping yet another bomb anyway.
 

YSoSalty?

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#24
Bombs are great- Figure them out.

Ledge trapping (one of the best imo), recovery, small profile and more zone control.

Next time you face pichu only bomb and get back to me on how much you hate that m/u lol think of it like snake grenading nonstop.
Jigglypuff as well. I beat high GSP Jigglypuffs and Pichus and even DKs by spamming bombs. The movement buff and hurtbox size reduction while in the Morph Ball allow Samus to avoid getting hit while tricking the opponent into colliding with the bombs. By paying attention to how they try to avoid the bombs, it becomes easier to predict and counter them or to surprise them with a sudden charge shot that Samus has been holding for a while.
 

Downshift

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#25
You guys are starting to make me come around...
These are good techniques, but I still think they'd be even better if they yielded Super Missile damage and knockback, or if you could lay five or even three at once.
This most recent buff to the endlag in the patch helps with the combo follow up potential at least.
 
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#26
You guys are starting to make me come around...
These are good techniques, but I still think they'd be even better if they yielded Super Missile damage and knockback, or if you could lay five or even three at once.
This most recent buff to the endlag in the patch helps with the combo follow up potential at least.
Jab sure would be better if it killed people at 80%, no?
 

Downshift

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#27
Oh, you're making a comparison?

Since no jabs kill at 80%, we shouldn't expect Samus' jab to kill at 80%?
Sure, OK.

Therefore, since no DownB moves can kill at 80%, we shouldn't expect Samus' DownB to kill at 80%?
Is that the logic I'm supposed to follow here?
 

Urgoz

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#28
Bombs are better than ever, even better than melee ones, because now the explode on contact. Great defense against rush in characters and they let you combo off of them with almost any attack.

Bomb to grab
Bomb to Missile
Bomb to dair
Bomb to nair
Bomb to dtilt
Bomb to ftilt
Bomb to utilt
Bomb to fsmash
Bomb to charge shot
Bomb to dash attack
etc.

Not to mention that they give you superb horizontal aerial speed, with which you can juke out people edgeguarding you. A good zoning samus is always spamming bombs and making the opponent hard to reach her. Literally nobody uses them, go check any Samus tourney vids and all they do is spam nairs or bairs like they're some kind of Ike or Cloud. Naturally, they get wrecked.
 
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#29
Oh, you're making a comparison?

Since no jabs kill at 80%, we shouldn't expect Samus' jab to kill at 80%?
Sure, OK.

Therefore, since no DownB moves can kill at 80%, we shouldn't expect Samus' DownB to kill at 80%?
Is that the logic I'm supposed to follow here?
The point is it's easy to make moves better if you ignore balance.
 

Downshift

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#30
The point is it's easy to make moves better if you ignore balance.
*sigh* That's what I asked way back in the beginning...
So I'm wondering, do you guys think that any buffs to Samus' bombs would make the move OP?
So you think that even adding a 2nd bomb option activated by "smashing" DownB to get a Power Bomb, just like you get a Super Missile, that is also has the damage and knockback of a Super Missile would suddenly make Samus broken? Upgrading a move that does 5% and causes slight hitstun to a move that does 10% and causes tumble is ignoring balance?
Moreso than if we made them like Link's throwable bombs? Snake's C4? Bowser's Bomb? Villager's Tree? Inkling Splat Bomb? Simon's Holy Water? Pika Thunder?
How would this even kill at 80% unless you perfectly time it to cause a stage spike?

It's fine if you think so, but why?
 
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#31
*sigh* That's what I asked way back in the beginning...

So you think that even adding a 2nd bomb option activated by "smashing" DownB to get a Power Bomb, just like you get a Super Missile, that is also has the damage and knockback of a Super Missile would suddenly make Samus broken? Upgrading a move that does 5% and causes slight hitstun to a move that does 10% and causes tumble is ignoring balance?
Moreso than if we made them like Link's throwable bombs? Snake's C4? Bowser's Bomb? Villager's Tree? Inkling Splat Bomb? Simon's Holy Water? Pika Thunder?
How would this even kill at 80% unless you perfectly time it to cause a stage spike?

It's fine if you think so, but why?
These are explosives that don't harm Samus and can be spammed at a rate much faster than any of your examples. The ones in Ultimate do a good enough job deterring approaches as it is, giving them more damage is overkill. And if you give it a smash input, how do you differentiate the visual cues so that it doesn't become a braindead mindgame that doesn't even require prep time like Charge Shot does?
 

Downshift

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#32
These are explosives that don't harm Samus and can be spammed at a rate much faster than any of your examples. The ones in Ultimate do a good enough job deterring approaches as it is, giving them more damage is overkill.
Would you then say that Snake's grenades are overkill? He can also have two of those out at a time so he can spam them, can place them nearly anywhere he wants on stage, he can cook them to explode in midair, and they do twice as much damage as Samus' bombs - even being capable of KO'ing.
Or is the balancing factor still that Snake's grenades can be used against him (he doesn't cook them)?

And if you give it a smash input, how do you differentiate the visual cues so that it doesn't become a braindead mindgame that doesn't even require prep time like Charge Shot does?
In her games, Samus flashes before she releases the five-bomb drop, so a visual cue like that would be easy to implement since she already flashes like that with a fully charged shot. It probably would be better to have it be a "charged" version instead of a "smash" version though, for the reason you mentioned.
Hold DownB, stay in morph ball mode for X amount of frames until you start flashing, then drop a Power Bomb. Then of course, you just press and release DownB before X number of frames like we currently do to get the standard weak Bomb that retains its combo, trap and anti-rushdown properties.
 
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aozf05

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#33
A power bomb alt sure would be cool for Metroid fans but indeed would break the balance of Samus's moveset.

Look, you and a lot of people underestimate her bombs but they have a lot of uses for what they are. There doesnt need to be a beefed up version of them just because the base version does a measly 5%. The point of the bombs is not damage or knockback. It's designed for mindgames and recovery. If you want a powerful special, Samus already has other options. Obviously charge beam is her bread and butter. Missiles are also good for spacing with a more damaging alternative that is definitely more useful than a more powerful bomb. And screw attack is also insanely good for protecting yourself from above as well as a great recovery. Her bombs dont need to be any stronger.

Edit: And if people arent afraid of her bombs, then youre not doing a good enough job making them afraid. Like someone mentioned earlier, the bombs are not the threat in and of themselves. The threat is the follow-up. That is what her bombs are designed for in a fight. They're a tool for spacing and setups. If they're not afraid and they tank a bomb, you use that opportunity to charge shot them or combo or grab. Thats what makes them afraid of bombs.
 
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Porygon2

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#34
A power bomb alt sure would be cool for Metroid fans but indeed would break the balance of Samus's moveset.

Look, you and a lot of people underestimate her bombs but they have a lot of uses for what they are. There doesnt need to be a beefed up version of them just because the base version does a measly 5%. The point of the bombs is not damage or knockback. It's designed for mindgames and recovery. If you want a powerful special, Samus already has other options. Obviously charge beam is her bread and butter. Missiles are also good for spacing with a more damaging alternative that is definitely more useful than a more powerful bomb. And screw attack is also insanely good for protecting yourself from above as well as a great recovery. Her bombs dont need to be any stronger.

Edit: And if people arent afraid of her bombs, then youre not doing a good enough job making them afraid. Like someone mentioned earlier, the bombs are not the threat in and of themselves. The threat is the follow-up. That is what her bombs are designed for in a fight. They're a tool for spacing and setups. If they're not afraid and they tank a bomb, you use that opportunity to charge shot them or combo or grab. Thats what makes them afraid of bombs.
This is all spot-on, and truest at ledge, imo. Follow up a ledge jump bomb with charge shot, missile, fair, or just regrab ledge and pop back up with zair or fair. Condition rolls, and adapt with grabs.

KayJay KayJay has some great examples of this in their videos: https://youtu.be/1KBDrVivnZg?t=332
 
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#35
I honestly feel like Samus can be broken if the right player picks her up and dedicates to her. I think bombs exploding on contact is now a big deal. Good bomb play in neutral shuts off the opponent from running directly at you as well as hard to react side B's like Inkling roller or Ridley grab as examples. It then forces opponent to also alter their aerial approaches which leads right into you game plan of reacting to what they are doing. This then slows the game down to a point where you can start to outplay them, rather than being rushed down for free against aggro with better frame data. It's less about damage/kill and more about strategy.
 
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Downshift

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#36
A power bomb alt sure would be cool for Metroid fans but indeed would break the balance of Samus's moveset.

Look, you and a lot of people underestimate her bombs but they have a lot of uses for what they are. There doesnt need to be a beefed up version of them just because the base version does a measly 5%. The point of the bombs is not damage or knockback. It's designed for mindgames and recovery. If you want a powerful special, Samus already has other options. Obviously charge beam is her bread and butter. Missiles are also good for spacing with a more damaging alternative that is definitely more useful than a more powerful bomb. And screw attack is also insanely good for protecting yourself from above as well as a great recovery. Her bombs dont need to be any stronger.
I don't really disagree with the points about bombs themselves, but you're basically making a case for the various tech and setups off of homing missile and then using that as an argument for why Super Missile shouldn't exist.

Even in my OP I acknowledged that bombs have their situational uses which is what you've all been describing. There have been a lot of good suggestions on high level bomb play and tech, but the other part that I'm still not getting is how a stronger variation of her bomb would make her "broken".
Maybe I just have a different definition of that phrase than you all do, but I consider a move to be broken when it can be spammed thoughtlessly to win neutral, net KOs or edge-guards with no skill. These are usually the moves that cause people to call for nerfs to certain characters. See: Inkling Roller.
I don't think any of Samus' moves are at risk of ever being broken, except maybe charge shot if it did like 60%. Her kit is just too technical to be spammed against good players.

BTW, what I meant by "people aren't afraid of bombs" is that they don't force people into shield or to retreat/evade like Missiles and especially CS do. Even just enough knockback to pop opponents up at the perfect angle for Uair or Fair combos would do the trick; it doesn't have to be a KO threat. Maybe the people I play are just ******* and don't respect them or can't see the setups even when they're caught in the subsequent combos, but bombs just aren't respected in general.

I mean, I can quote them again, but I don't see any of these versions of Bombs instantly catapulting Samus into S Tier:
It'd be cool if Samus could charge Bomb so that she could drop five bombs at once. Originally, I thought maybe having a full Charge Shot and dropping Bomb could cause five to drop out, but then that wouldn't be such a good idea. Instead, perhaps Samus could charge Bomb to drop five. I know, I know, Metroid: Other M let her charge Bomb to use Power Bomb. It wouldn't be ridiculous if that happened. Just look at Link's Remote Bomb.
I've also thought about a less extreme Morph Ball "stalling" mechanic. Tap down-b for normal bomb, hold it to stall in Morph Ball indefinitely without a bomb, or release b while keeping down held to drop a bomb and stay in Morph Ball afterward. While in ball form, attacking drops a(nother) bomb, and left/right inputs do a Boost Ball move with high chance to trip. Either action automatically pops Samus out of Morph Ball.

Bomb at shield > ball stall > boost backward > Charged Shot would be a reliable shield breaking string, and the ability to mix up standard bombs with ball stall in the air might open up some better bomb jumping options.
It probably would be better to have it be a "charged" version instead of a "smash" version though, for the reason you mentioned.
Hold DownB, stay in morph ball mode for X amount of frames until you start flashing, then drop a Power Bomb. Then of course, you just press and release DownB before X number of frames like we currently do to get the standard weak Bomb that retains its combo, trap and anti-rushdown properties.
It's not like people are wanting Bombs to do 30% damage or KO Bowser from the center of FD at 110%.

The other thing I'm noticing is that for all the worry about buffs to Bombs making Samus broken, I haven't heard much complaining about the buffs Bomb got between Smash4 and Ultimate (exploding on contact), or the buffs Bombs got in the 2.0.0 patch (less endlag allowing for followups). Obviously the dev team think bombs could be stronger, and the buffs did nothing to break the moveset. So I'd trust them with further such buffs not breaking the character.
Again, Samus is far from Top Tier, so why wouldn't you want one of her other moves to be better?
 
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meleebrawler
#37
I don't really disagree with the points about bombs themselves, but you're basically making a case for the various tech and setups off of homing missile and then using that as an argument for why Super Missile shouldn't exist.

Even in my OP I acknowledged that bombs have their situational uses which is what you've all been describing. There have been a lot of good suggestions on high level bomb play and tech, but the other part that I'm still not getting is how a stronger variation of her bomb would make her "broken".
Maybe I just have a different definition of that phrase than you all do, but I consider a move to be broken when it can be spammed thoughtlessly to win neutral, net KOs or edge-guards with no skill. These are usually the moves that cause people to call for nerfs to certain characters. See: Inkling Roller.
I don't think any of Samus' moves are at risk of ever being broken, except maybe charge shot if it did like 60%. Her kit is just too technical to be spammed against good players.

BTW, what I meant by "people aren't afraid of bombs" is that they don't force people into shield or to retreat/evade like Missiles and especially CS do. Even just enough knockback to pop opponents up at the perfect angle for Uair or Fair combos would do the trick; it doesn't have to be a KO threat. Maybe the people I play are just ******* and don't respect them or can't see the setups even when they're caught in the subsequent combos, but bombs just aren't respected in general.

I mean, I can quote them again, but I don't see any of these versions of Bombs instantly catapulting Samus into S Tier:





It's not like people are wanting Bombs to do 30% damage or KO Bowser from the center of FD at 110%.

The other thing I'm noticing is that for all the worry about buffs to Bombs making Samus broken, I haven't heard much complaining about the buffs Bomb got between Smash4 and Ultimate (exploding on contact), or the buffs Bombs got in the 2.0.0 patch (less endlag allowing for followups). Obviously the dev team think bombs could be stronger, and the buffs did nothing to break the moveset. So I'd trust them with further such buffs not breaking the character.
Again, Samus is far from Top Tier, so why wouldn't you want one of her other moves to be better?
It's not always about being broken at top level, you also have to consider it being potentially abusable at low level. If bombs did good damage on their own in addition to having to all the benefits they provide, what's stopping low-level plyers from just spamming them against others who don't know how to approach well? Why bother using any of her close range moves to set up combos when bombs do it better and with less risk?

The buff they got in this patch leads me to believe the devs feel the same way about bombs as most people here do: low-risk mobility and trapping tool with low reward in of itself that can potentially be higher with the right read. Increasing the latter with more guaranteed setups could likely make Samus very unfun to fight for inexperienced players.
 
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Downshift

Smash Journeyman
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#38
It's not always about being broken at top level, you also have to consider it being potentially abusable at low level. If bombs did good damage on their own in addition to having to all the benefits they provide, what's stopping low-level plyers from just spamming them against others who don't know how to approach well? Why bother using any of her close range moves to set up combos when bombs do it better and with less risk?

The buff they got in this patch leads me to believe the devs feel the same way about bombs as most people here do: low-risk mobility and trapping tool with low reward in of itself that can potentially be higher with the right read. Increasing the latter with more guaranteed setups could likely make Samus very unfun to fight for inexperienced players.
Yeah OK, now you're just exaggerating.

Samus' Charge Shot, two types of missiles and current weak bombs all over the stage are just perfectly fine for noobs to deal with someone spamming them, but buffing the bomb from 5% to 10% damage (after having to take the time to charge it)... that, THAT would be the one thing they just can't deal with? :rolleyes:
At least half the roster has moves that can be shamelessly spammed to completely shut down inexperienced players. That's not a fault of the characters, it's because the opponents are inexperienced. Anyone with two or more projectiles and pretty much all of K Rool's kit, PK Thunder and Nikita Missile, ROB's gyro, Simon's Axe and Cross, Duck Hunt just being Duck Hunt, I could go on...
I already know for a fact that people spamming these things tilts noobs like nothing else. This is nothing new and nothing specific to Samus.

I can follow and agree with just about everyone else's points and arguments in this topic, but not yours. You make no sense. It's like you think Samus is already Top 5 in the game, and that her bombs are far and away the primary reason for that, so even a 5% damage buff to them will break the game.
lolwut
 
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meleebrawler
#39
Yeah OK, now you're just exaggerating.

Samus' Charge Shot, two types of missiles and current weak bombs all over the stage are just perfectly fine for noobs to deal with someone spamming them, but buffing the bomb from 5% to 10% damage (after having to take the time to charge it)... that, THAT would be the one thing they just can't deal with? :rolleyes:
At least half the roster has moves that can be shamelessly spammed to completely shut down inexperienced players. That's not a fault of the characters, it's because the opponents are inexperienced. Anyone with two or more projectiles and pretty much all of K Rool's kit, PK Thunder and Nikita Missile, ROB's gyro, Simon's Axe and Cross, Duck Hunt just being Duck Hunt, I could go on...
I already know for a fact that people spamming these things tilts noobs like nothing else. This is nothing new and nothing specific to Samus.

I can follow and agree with just about everyone else's points and arguments in this topic, but not yours. You make no sense. It's like you think Samus is already Top 5 in the game, and that her bombs are far and away the primary reason for that, so even a 5% damage buff to them will break the game.
lolwut
It doesn't matter if there's actual counterplay to a move or character that makes them not actually broken, players and Smash devs alike don't like it when something gives too much reward for how easy/safe it is to use. This move almost instantaneously puts an obstacle between Samus and her opponent that they have to respect now that it explodes on contact again. While her other projectiles can be avoided/reflected by more close-range fighters, what can they really do about reliable combo-starting bombs (compared to what we have now that at least requires Samus to take a little risk in getting hit while retaining positioning that would allow her to combo) that have much less lag than missiles and don't require any prep time like Charge Shot, unless they are very mobile (in the air especially) or have strong projectiles of their own?

That bomb-charging mechanic sounds bad too, but for the opposite reason. It gives opponents way more time to react appropriately to the bombs that they otherwise wouldn't have for a comparatively marginal benefit over the normal ones. As for Power Bombs... we've seen Mega Bombs in 4. It's an extremely fine line to balance, either it explodes quick and Samus can cheaply hide in her own explosion, or it's so long that it just gives the opponent an opening to rush in. All assuming they don't explode on contact, which was the much bigger cause for bombs not being respected than low damage ever was.
 

Porygon2

Smash Apprentice
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#40
It doesn't matter if there's actual counterplay to a move or character that makes them not actually broken, players and Smash devs alike don't like it when something gives too much reward for how easy/safe it is to use. This move almost instantaneously puts an obstacle between Samus and her opponent that they have to respect now that it explodes on contact again. While her other projectiles can be avoided/reflected by more close-range fighters, what can they really do about reliable combo-starting bombs (compared to what we have now that at least requires Samus to take a little risk in getting hit while retaining positioning that would allow her to combo) that have much less lag than missiles and don't require any prep time like Charge Shot, unless they are very mobile (in the air especially) or have strong projectiles of their own?

That bomb-charging mechanic sounds bad too, but for the opposite reason. It gives opponents way more time to react appropriately to the bombs that they otherwise wouldn't have for a comparatively marginal benefit over the normal ones. As for Power Bombs... we've seen Mega Bombs in 4. It's an extremely fine line to balance, either it explodes quick and Samus can cheaply hide in her own explosion, or it's so long that it just gives the opponent an opening to rush in. All assuming they don't explode on contact, which was the much bigger cause for bombs not being respected than low damage ever was.
Brass tax is that Samus is almost universally regarded as mid-tier, and has also had little in the way updates despite the oft-cited facts of her playstyle barely resembling her games, and new tools for characters like Link, Ganondorf, Pikachu, etc. This means she's a fine candidate for changes. New/tweaked bombs are one way to do that—the ideas here are just spit-balling. Feel free to criticize them or to rep the current bomb functionality, but picking things apart like this is just needlessly in-depth. It can also be done for almost any special move real or conceptual if you ignore the context of frame data, hit/hurtboxes, and the general ability of the Smash team and players to balance/explore the game, respectively.

FYI, I'd prefer the power bomb as a revamped d-smash.
 
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