Bombs... :/

[meleebrawler]

Brass tax is that Samus is almost universally regarded as mid-tier, and has also had little in the way updates despite the oft-cited facts of her playstyle barely resembling her games, and new tools for characters like Link, Ganondorf, Pikachu, etc. This means she's a fine candidate for changes. New/tweaked bombs are one way to to that—the ideas here are just spit-balling. Feel free to criticize them or to rep the current bomb functionality, but picking things apart like this is just needlessly in-depth. It can also be done for almost any special move real or conceptual if you ignore the context of frame data, hit/hurtboxes, and the general ability of the Smash team and players to balance/explore the game, respectively.

FYI, I'd prefer the power bomb as a revamped d-smash.

You can try to make her more accurate, but I don't see how that'd meaningfully move her up the tier lists without breaking something. She just doesn't have enough versatility in her weaponry like Megaman does.

Some characters are just never going to be top tier unless you change them into something they're not.

 

[Downshift]

It doesn't matter if there's actual counterplay to a move or character that makes them not actually broken, players and Smash devs alike don't like it when something gives too much reward for how easy/safe it is to use. This move almost instantaneously puts an obstacle between Samus and her opponent that they have to respect now that it explodes on contact again. While her other projectiles can be avoided/reflected by more close-range fighters, what can they really do about reliable combo-starting bombs (compared to what we have now that at least requires Samus to take a little risk in getting hit while retaining positioning that would allow her to combo) that have much less lag than missiles and don't require any prep time like Charge Shot, unless they are very mobile (in the air especially) or have strong projectiles of their own?

That bomb-charging mechanic sounds bad too, but for the opposite reason. It gives opponents way more time to react appropriately to the bombs that they otherwise wouldn't have for a comparatively marginal benefit over the normal ones. As for Power Bombs... we've seen Mega Bombs in 4. It's an extremely fine line to balance, either it explodes quick and Samus can cheaply hide in her own explosion, or it's so long that it just gives the opponent an opening to rush in. All assuming they don't explode on contact, which was the much bigger cause for bombs not being respected than low damage ever was.

Still, you're just arguing against buffed bombs just for the sake of arguing. This move is not perfect; not flawless. No move is. I'm not buying that and I don't believe that you do either. There is ALWAYS room for improvement just like there is for any move in this game.
You have a proposed move that takes into account a time period of charge needed and then a variable damage/knockback factor based on the charge time that's also variable. Those factors alone mathematically create an infinite number of options scaling from taking 5 full seconds to charge to only do 1% damage and no knockback, or only 2 frames to charge to do 100% damage and KO Punch knockback. So it's factually false to say that a charged variant of Bombs cannot be balanced. In fact, there would be at least 3 different options for charge time/damage output that could work depending on what functionality you wanted to add to Samus' kit. This is what I'm talking about. There are multiple options, not zero options. Especially when you consider other suggestions from this topic like dropping multiple weak bombs after charging the move instead of one stronger one, or even being able to launch it upwards like she can in Super Metroid.

So... in order for me to understand your POV well enough to continue this, you need to stop ignoring some questions I've asked you so I know where you stand relative to other similar special moves:

What do you think of Snake's specials, like grenades, C4 and Nikita missile?
What do you think of Isabelle's Lloyd rocket that can be buried as a proximity trap?
Safe, spammable disjointed moves like Cloud's Cross Slash?
Huge arsenals of projectiles that wall out approaches from all directions like Simon's Cross/Axe/Water, or Duck Hunt's Can, Gunmen and Clay Pidgeon?

How does these kits compare to Samus' current CS, Missiles and bombs, and how would rank Bombs specifically among these other individual moves? You don't have to slot Bombs into a comprehensive list, just give some type of reference point for where you'd rank Bombs, knowing that I'd rate them below all of the above except maybe the Clay Pigeon. And yet, I don't see any of these moves as "broken" except the Nikita.

And what's an example of a "broken" move on a low tier character?

 

[meleebrawler]

Still, you're just arguing against buffed bombs just for the sake of arguing. This move is not perfect; not flawless. No move is. I'm not buying that and I don't believe that you do either. There is ALWAYS room for improvement just like there is for any move in this game.
You have a proposed move that takes into account a time period of charge needed and then a variable damage/knockback factor based on the charge time that's also variable. Those factors alone mathematically create an infinite number of options scaling from taking 5 full seconds to charge to only do 1% damage and no knockback, or only 2 frames to charge to do 100% damage and KO Punch knockback. So it's factually false to say that a charged variant of Bombs cannot be balanced. In fact, there would be at least 3 different options for charge time/damage output that could work depending on what functionality you wanted to add to Samus' kit. This is what I'm talking about. There are multiple options, not zero options. Especially when you consider other suggestions from this topic like dropping multiple weak bombs after charging the move instead of one stronger one, or even being able to launch it upwards like she can in Super Metroid.

So... in order for me to understand your POV well enough to continue this, you need to stop ignoring some questions I've asked you so I know where you stand relative to other similar special moves:

What do you think of Snake's specials, like grenades, C4 and Nikita missile?
What do you think of Isabelle's Lloyd rocket that can be buried as a proximity trap?
Safe, spammable disjointed moves like Cloud's Cross Slash?
Huge arsenals of projectiles that wall out approaches from all directions like Simon's Cross/Axe/Water, or Duck Hunt's Can, Gunmen and Clay Pidgeon?

How does these kits compare to Samus' current CS, Missiles and bombs, and how would rank Bombs specifically among these other individual moves? You don't have to slot Bombs into a comprehensive list, just give some type of reference point for where you'd rank Bombs, knowing that I'd rate them below all of the above except maybe the Clay Pigeon. And yet, I don't see any of these moves as "broken" except the Nikita.

And what's an example of a "broken" move on a low tier character?

Grenades and C4: Risk of self-harm. Nikita: Snake is defenseless when controlling the missile. Lloid Trap: Does absolutely nothing in the air. Cross Slash... why are we comparing a melee attack to a trapping projectile? Anyway, it's punishable if fully shielded and has noticeable lag if whiffed. All of the Belmont projectiles have noticeable startup and Holy Water can be turned against them by shielding or catching the bottle. Most of Duck Hunt's tools can be messed with by attacking them and clay also has lag plus only one being out at a time, along with temporarily losing control of can.

They all have the potential to backfire if misused or a factor that limits their use. Can you really say the same for bombs? Low damage is their limiting factor.

 

[Downshift]

So then...

1. Samus Chargeable Bomb - 10% damage
2. Infinite Final Smash Attacks
3. Current Weak Samus Bombs - 5% damage
4. Nikita Missile
5. Grenades x2
6. Lloyd Trap
7. Belmont Cross/Axe
8. Holy Water
9. Duck Hunt Can
10. Clay Pigeon

Is this your list? You think Samus' bombs are already better than all other examples?


You also still skipped another vital inquiry:

And what's an example of a "broken" move on a low tier character?

Doesn't even have to be a projectile or special move. Just any attack in the game that will, as you put it, "make [the character] very unfun to fight for inexperienced players".
Because I can probably name at least 20, and depending on how inexperienced we're talking, one for every character in the game.
If you're talking about the move becoming insurmountable for high level play, something that would be banned in tournaments, you're gonna need to make a much stronger case against a bomb move with no range or kinetic deployment that increases in power the longer it's charged.

They all have the potential to backfire if misused or a factor that limits their use. Can you really say the same for bombs? Low damage is their limiting factor.

Yes. Every example I gave has range away from the user. They can either be thrown or controlled to unleash a hitbox where and when the user wants. They can be placed out in the field to control a portion of the stage for at few seconds or so like Zelda's Phantom, Robin's Arcfire or multiple grenades, or often longer in the case of C4, Link's Remote Bombs, Lloyd Trap or Duck Hunt Can.
Like it's been said before, you have to trick your opponent into running into bombs. Any characteristic of a move that requires the user to employ higher levels of skill in order to be effective is by definition a limiting factor.

Bombs have multiple limitations, not just the low damage:

• They lack any kinetic energy at deployment. They fall and stay exactly where they were when Samus dropped them.
• They have a short timer, meaning they cannot be used as stage hazards like Lloyd Rocket
• They are the weakest move of any other examples given

Then if you introduce a charging mechanic with the flashing visual cue, that's yet another limitation on the move.
The low endlag relative to moves like PK Thunder and Holy Cross is already balanced give the fact that you can't even threaten your opponent with bombs unless you're already within a character length of them where most of them are close enough to punish with a simple SH Fair, while ranged moves can threaten from 1/2 a stage away - making their 10+ frames of endlag a non-factor. Then yeah, the other limiting factor is that they're weaker than everything else listed as well.

 

[aozf05]

I don't really disagree with the points about bombs themselves, but you're basically making a case for the various tech and setups off of homing missile and then using that as an argument for why Super Missile shouldn't exist.

No I'm not. Homing Missiles and Super Missiles have very different functions and situations for which they are useful. Bombs also have specific uses and techs but a more powerful version of them would essentially be almost exactly the same as regular bombs - just more powerful - and I don't see the point in that. In fact, I think they'd be less useful. If you have to take some time to charge them before release, you're making yourself immobile to release a bomb that presumably would take a further extra second to detonate anyway. Such a move just takes too long and is too telegraphed to be useful. And the extra knockback makes it even more useless since it doesn't have any setup potential and as a spacing tool, Super Missiles do the same job but better since they can travel across the stage. Power Bombs would just be redundant.

If you make it chargeable like a charge shot rather than a smash attack, then the move becomes broken because it'd be like you're walking around with a second charge shot that's weaker and stationary but just as threatening.

And if you make them work like her missiles do then the newbs would spam Power Bombs all day while the experienced players would almost never use it because, again, it has no setup potential and Super Missiles would do the exact same job but better.

And if you have the multi bomb drop as an alt then you get too much reward for the risk. It's easily spammable. The move would be too good.

What makes her bombs balanced is that they are weak. There doesn't need to be a better version of them. If we want Samus to be better, buffing her bombs is not the way to go. I'd start with making her jab combo a true combo, give her a decent killing throw or make her down throw a decent setup again, or make her down tilt a killing move again. Maybe even give her back her sex kick.

 

[Downshift]

No I'm not. Homing Missiles and Super Missiles have very different functions and situations for which they are useful. Bombs also have specific uses and techs but a more powerful version of them would essentially be almost exactly the same as regular bombs - just more powerful - and I don't see the point in that.

"Just more powerful" has LOTS of implications in this game engine's landscape of physics and mechanics than just damage racking.
It's the difference between 4 frame hitstun vs actual knockdowns that lead into tech chases. It's the difference between negligible hitstun in the air vs sending someone into airborne tumble giving Samus the chance to follow up with aerial strings. More damage also allows for entirely different mind games since people WILL have to respect the stronger bombs more. A juggled Samus can drop a strong bomb that will cover her landing with an actual threatening hitbox that the opponent will have to respect. They can be used offstage as a proactive edge guarding move that can actually be threatening near the blast zone, therefore actually forcing opponents to airdodge or to recover higher/lower. This is a technique that can then be used to force them into a predicable recovery that can be exploited with a waiting CS or Dair spike.

This is what the meta is.
You can't just say, "giving this move an entirely new angle with new properties and functions does not and will not ever have any use in any situation against any opponent on any stage ever." That's asinine.
How many times do players see a new move or a new character and think a move is utter trash, only to be blown away by clever and creative utility of the move later in the meta?

In fact, I think they'd be less useful. If you have to take some time to charge them before release, you're making yourself immobile to release a bomb that presumably would take a further extra second to detonate anyway. Such a move just takes too long and is too telegraphed to be useful. And the extra knockback makes it even more useless since it doesn't have any setup potential and as a spacing tool, Super Missiles do the same job but better since they can travel across the stage. Power Bombs would just be redundant.

You're making pessimistic assumptions about things I never said, or even things I actually said would be different.
A charged stronger bomb will take longer to detonate? No, they'll still explode on contact. Why wouldn't they? In fact, even if they do have a longer timer if no one touches them, that gives you more AoE stage control for that extra time it's out in the field. See above, it's akin to C4, Link's Bombs or the Lloyd Rocket trap. Except they still explode on contact.
"Takes too long to charge"? How long exactly? I gave a range from 5 seconds all the way down to two frames. TWO FRAMES. That's too long? You don't think you could pick a charge time between 2 frames and 300 frames that would be a good balance? There are tons of moves that already employ this mechanic perfectly.
Also, like I said above, extra knockback can send people at any angle the devs want. It can even be set knockback at the combo angle we lost from her Smash4 Dash Attack. This knockback could even send them straight up and true combo in Uair > Uair > Screw Attack. Is that knockback useless with no setup potential?

If you make it chargeable like a charge shot rather than a smash attack, then the move becomes broken because it'd be like you're walking around with a second charge shot that's weaker and stationary but just as threatening.

Not chargeable like CS. Chargeable like Greninja's water shuriken, or Ike's Quick Draw, or Zelda's Phantom. Chargeable but not store-able.
Press and release Down B like you already do to get the normal weak bombs you worship; those aren't going away. Or Press and hold Down B for up to X-number of frames and then release to drop a variably stronger bomb.
You want a bomb that only knocks them down for a tech chase? Release B sooner. Want a stronger bomb that pops them up for an Utilt follow up? Release B later. The point is, you have more options.
More options is never worse unless the character becomes technical for you. If that's the case, go play Little Mac.

And if you make them work like her missiles do then the newbs would spam Power Bombs all day while the experienced players would almost never use it because, again, it has no setup potential and Super Missiles would do the exact same job but better.

I already described the setup potential in detail with multiple options depending on the variant in the above quote response. Options are options. Pro players don't use a lot of moves characters have, but they're used at lower levels of play. Then visa-versa. Some pro players use moves other pro players don't use. Having more options rather than less options is good, and allows player personalities and styles to show through in their play while also keeping characters themselves from being one or two dimensional.
And noobs spamming good moves is nothing new and nothing specific to Samus. Noobs spam PK Fire, Mega Man's Leaf Blade, Fox Illusion, Kirby's Sword Cutter, etc, etc. You can't stop that, and good players always find a way around spam.
This is a non-factor.

And if you have the multi bomb drop as an alt then you get too much reward for the risk. It's easily spammable. The move would be too good.

Again, you can't conclude that the move would be too good without knowing all the factors. How long did you have to charge it to get it to the point of a multi-drop? Did the bombs just fall and spread out on the ground, or did they also pop up in the air? How strong is each individual bomb? If you have to charge it for 60 frames, how is it spammable? If a move does appear to be too good, why is that? too much knockback growth? Too much hitstun? Too much shield damage? Too little startup / endlag? Find that factor and dial it back.
These are the variables that can be modified to control the balance of the move, just like any move.

What makes her bombs balanced is that they are weak. There doesn't need to be a better version of them.

Scroll up and look at my list. Bombs actually have three limitations working against them in the name of "balance".
You guys have made a case for why Samus' Bombs aren't bad, but the descriptors being used in here are "They're OK", "They work well enough". "They're good for the two things they're meant for.", etc etc.
I'm saying they could go from being "meh" to being one of her best moves, without breaking lore and without straying from her technical setup nature and not making them broken by keeping them from being outright KO moves. You just need to think less pessimistically and more creatively.

If we want Samus to be better, buffing her bombs is not the way to go. I'd start with making her jab combo a true combo, give her a decent killing throw or make her down throw a decent setup again, or make her down tilt a killing move again. Maybe even give her back her sex kick.

EDIT:
At the risk of straying off topic to reply to this last quote, Samus' BackThrow kills at the edge now and UpThrow now kills from platforms. Dtilt also KOs better than it did in Smash4; around 140+%.
Jab 100% needs to be fixed though. There's even a Tip in the menu that talks about how her jab doesn't work and advises the Samus throw a sucker punch and then flee, as if they're mocking us after intentionally breaking our move. WTF

 

[DelugeFGC]

Samus / Dark Samus can just drop bombs all over the stage as she goes and get in damage from carelessly aggressive opponents, they can also be used as a fake out / mix-up, as an edgeguard.. they don't really need to be 'good' in the sense that they have a lot of damage or knockback. They're free damage against those who are careless and too aggressive, and they give you a nice defensive neutral game when the player DOES respect them as they constantly have to give a little bit of extra thought to their approach if they don't want to eat a bomb or an aerial/tilt from you, etc.

I think they're fine as-is, really. Would be nice if they helped recovery, but, if they stayed as is.. I'd still keep playing Dark Samus as one of my many secondaries.

 

[Downshift]

they're fine as-is, really.

I think we all agree that bombs are just OK, etc etc. But do you think making bombs better would make Samus worse?

 

[Crooked Crow]

Bombs are very good in this game, I think the best state they've ever been in.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think we all agree that bombs are just OK, etc etc. But do you think making bombs better would make Samus worse?

In the sense that it's a needless buff? Yeah, kind of. The bombs are fine, any stronger and they'll just encourage really campy play out of Samus players.. which is already an issue online. Add in better bombs, and nothing changes, Samus is just needlessly stronger in an area even you admit she's fine in.

Big N O to a bomb buff from me.

 

[Downshift]

In the sense that it's a needless buff? Yeah, kind of. The bombs are fine, any stronger and they'll just encourage really campy play out of Samus players.. which is already an issue online. Add in better bombs, and nothing changes, Samus is just needlessly stronger in an area even you admit she's fine in.

Big N O to a bomb buff from me.

Do you mean campy play as in a Snake just spamming UpSmash? Because they still only fall in place and can't force approaches like all other projectiles?
I still think it's shortsighted to say to "NO" to any and all types of buffs to bombs when there is an unlimited possibility of improvements devs could make to the move. I thought Super Missiles were "OK, good as is, fine, etc" in SSB4 and no one I knew could think of a buff for them broken or too similar to CS. That delay mechanic is a buff I never knew I wanted.
You won't know what would improve on bombs until you see it, but you'll never see if it you don't allow it in the first place.

 

[Zeeloid]

Bombs aren’t a kill move, they aren’t for damage. You think they are underwhelming cause you aren’t thinking outside the box. They have a proximity detonation now. So anything trying to run thru it, gets stopped. This helps immensely with rushdown. Yea spamming will get you read butt that’s the nature of spam. Bombs make ledge trapping with samus super potent. If you drop one and move behind it, it can even stop some projectiles coming your way. We can use them to stall offstage and even bomb jump to give us a chance to wait out the edge guard attempt. We can use them to shield break and use them to extend comboes. They are all utility. They are strong or weak depending on how you use them. Be creative! That’s what this game is about. Fair/upsmash are the real travesty. Bombs is like the last thing I would touch if at all. They do their job well

 

[MrFantasticGenitalThrust]

Fair/upsmash are the real travesty. They do their job well

I think Fair and Usmash are quite fine for what they do with the fire/electric properties being good for block stun frame trapping and hit stun giving you more time to think of your next play. In fact I think the whole of Samus kit is actually not a lot to complain about overall. All her moves work great with her play style. I think the only move I am yet to find a legitimate use for is Homing Missiles. It feels like a more 'proactive' bomb in the way it can tick people but I don't know, it just doesn't feel worthwhile overall. Maybe an off ledge tool? Not sure.

 

[Oukami]

I think bombs are great just the way they are, what would be fun though is if while in morph ball from the blast we gain a hurt box. imagine being able to launch your heavy balled up body towards your opponent!

 

[Koopaul]

What if Bombs dropped slightly faster from the air? I think that might enhance the mind games aspect of them.

 

[Ode]

Bomb damage and knock back are ok and could be optimised, but the hit box change and momentum cancelling add extra utility to this move. A welcome change would be fewer tumble frames.

...the only move I am yet to find a legitimate use for is Homing Missiles.

HM can be a mixup from SM. Their comparatively slow speed and long lifetime on screen gives you an exploitable hazard. Have you tried throwing people at a stale HM? It has never resulted in a stock, but it does bring me joy in this game.

Don't forget, HM+CS breaks shields. (NOT ANY MORE RIP CS SHEILDBREAK)

 

[Knight Dude]

I don't think the bombs need to be particularly powerful attacks. I normally use them for recovery and getting in some bits of damage here and there. Only a minor damage buff of 2-3% would be needed.

Though I think increasing the range of the bombs explosion would be nice, to make up for their lack of damage. The bombs in Metroid Prime for example, have great range, but aren't super damaging, you're not expected to beat a Shegoth or Space Pirate with them in that game. More or less the buff in blast radius that Link's bombs got, but less extreme as Samus doesn't hurt herself with her bombs.

Offensively, the bombs should be a good way to annoy the opponent either giving them little room to move or to rack up damage early not and get pot-shot late game.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think the bombs need to be particularly powerful attacks. I normally use them for recovery and getting in some bits of damage here and there. Only a minor damage buff of 2-3% would be needed.

Though I think increasing the range of the bombs explosion would be nice, to make up for their lack of damage. The bombs in Metroid Prime for example, have great range, but aren't super damaging, you're not expected to beat a Shegoth or Space Pirate with them in that game. More or less the buff in blast radius that Link's bombs got, but less extreme as Samus doesn't hurt herself with her bombs.

Offensively, the bombs should be a good way to annoy the opponent either giving them little room to move or to rack up damage early not and get pot-shot late game.

Um, actually, bombing the Sheegoth's underbelly is one of the main ways to kill it. And I don't find the bombs in Prime games to have great range at all, their animation is very misleading on their actual blast radius. Kind of a moot point when the bombs in Smash are more based on 2D games anyway, though. They definitely don't have good range there.

 

[Knight Dude]

Um, actually, bombing the Sheegoth's underbelly is one of the main ways to kill it. And I don't find the bombs in Prime games to have great range at all, their animation is very misleading on their actual blast radius. Kind of a moot point when the bombs in Smash are more based on 2D games anyway, though. They definitely don't have good range there.

Damn really? I always hit the Sheegoth's from the backs with Missiles. Learn something new every day. Sorry for any misinformation on my part.

But I think the idea of the larger rang on bombs should be considered at least.

 

[Amon O]

I feel like her bombs are perfect. They are a complete momentum stopper for rushing in opponents. Her ability to micro move out of it is also really good and is sort of the added bonus. With the movement and bigger explosions I feel like it would be Uber OP.

 

[meleebrawler]

Damn really? I always hit the Sheegoth's from the backs with Missiles. Learn something new every day. Sorry for any misinformation on my part.

But I think the idea of the larger rang on bombs should be considered at least.

You're talking about Baby Sheegoths. Regular Sheegoths are the mini-boss level foes that absorb beam shots.

 

[Knight Dude]

You're talking about Baby Sheegoths. Regular Sheegoths are the mini-boss level foes that absorb beam shots.

Ah I see. Don't know why, but I just called the Baby ones Sheegoths while the adults I called Big Sheegoths.

 

[MrFantasticGenitalThrust]

HM can be a mixup from SM. Their comparatively slow speed and long lifetime on screen gives you an exploitable hazard. Have you tried throwing people at a stale HM? It has never resulted in a stock, but it does bring me joy in this game.
Don't forget, HM+CS breaks shields.

Watching YB highlights from Prime. He tends to use HM as an option when he lands a solid knockback attack. Knockback attack > HM > Whatever. I tend to throw out SM out of habit after knockback but HM seems to be better option as you said the slower speed allows you to exploit it better.

Morph ball bomb wise, YB also using Usmash as some kind of option select (OS) when defending ledge get ups with the bombs. Bomb ledge > Position > Usmash. It ended up catching a lot of people's roll get ups and it looks to cover jumping attacks off ledge too in theory.

 

[Xanderr]

Honestly, bombs are most useful for kill confirm setups. Whenever the opponent makes contact with a bomb, they flinch and become frame trapped. allowing you to freely hit them with a charge shot. This works every damn time, whether it be from a rush down or my favorite, a ledge guard get up. Bombs are meant to COMPLIMENT Samus's arsenal. They're a charge shots best friend. Next time an opponent is hanging off ledge, drop one a couple of feet in front of it and stand near but behind it. If the opponent does a normal get up roll they will make contact with the bomb and you can get an easy CS kill. The only other options are an aerial get up which you can then easily cover with short hop Fair. Or, they will attempt to roll past your bomb on get up where you can easily down smash and catch them as they roll behind you. Like I said before, bombs are incredible, they're the ultimate set up tool but also the ultimate mind **** for your opponent if you're smart enough to utilize them. Samus is a Chess players character, you need to envision and anticipate the opponent's moves and tendencies 5 steps ahead.

 

[Downshift]

There's enough content in here to make a dedicated Samus Bomb Guide. This is now the best topic in this forum.

Spoiler

You're welcome.

 

[Lorisaur]

Watching YB highlights from Prime. He tends to use HM as an option when he lands a solid knockback attack. Knockback attack > HM > Whatever. I tend to throw out SM out of habit after knockback but HM seems to be better option as you said the slower speed allows you to exploit it better.

Morph ball bomb wise, YB also using Usmash as some kind of option select (OS) when defending ledge get ups with the bombs. Bomb ledge > Position > Usmash. It ended up catching a lot of people's roll get ups and it looks to cover jumping attacks off ledge too in theory.

I also find useful dropping a bomb and ledge trapping with an uptilt