Official Bob-Omg Social: Count to 300 bob-ombs!

[Kneutronic]

Kneutronic So after viewing Evo the other day, I've been thinking longer and harder about who the best character is in Smash 4, and I was wondering what your thoughts are. While Sheik and Diddy Kong are both still have the best tournament results in the game, I'm not sure which one of these two is the better character. Concerning other characters lower than the top 2, Cloud is most likely 3rd, but his TRs haven't been as strong lately. In my mind, Fox, Rosalina, Mario, Zero Suit Samus, and Sonic are all virtually equal, with Ryu being at the bottom of the top tiers (but not by much). How would you order the top tier?

Oooh... Tiers aren't my biggest forté, dude. I do think that Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Cloud are the best of the best, and I more think that Sonic should be at the bottom of top tiers, or at least tied with Ryu.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Oooh... Tiers aren't my biggest forté, dude. I do think that Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Cloud are the best of the best, and I more think that Sonic should be at the bottom of top tiers, or at least tied with Ryu.

I think you're doing an ok job, personally. Besides, we pretty much agree Here's my top tier ranking right now:

> > > > > > > >

Btw I'm digging the rose colored text!

 

[Kneutronic]

54

Btw I'm digging the rose colored text!

I always change my text to correspond with the avi I'm using. I tried to find a good shade of pink to go with D. Va.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

Morning

55

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

54
I always change my text to correspond with the avi I'm using. I tried to find a good shade of pink to go with D. Va.

Sounds good.

56 hellos to Kon

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Kneutronic So after viewing Evo the other day, I've been thinking longer and harder about who the best character is in Smash 4, and I was wondering what your thoughts are. While Sheik and Diddy Kong are both still have the best tournament results in the game, I'm not sure which one of these two is the better character. Concerning other characters lower than the top 2, Cloud is most likely 3rd, but his TRs haven't been as strong lately. In my mind, Fox, Rosalina, Mario, Zero Suit Samus, and Sonic are all virtually equal, with Ryu being at the bottom of the top tiers (but not by much). How would you order the top tier?

You didn't ask me, but I'll share my opinion.

Spoiler

: one of the best neutrals (if not THE best), the best projectile in the game, amazing combo game despite the nerfs, scary edgeguarder, one of the safest recoveries, great frame data, great results even post-nerf
: amazing neutral, great punishes with bananas, great zoning, scary kill setups, great frame data, amazing recovery (though easy to mess up or get gimped in some MUs), great results overall (especially from ZeRo)
: extremely high learning curve that is also just as rewarding, best combo potential in the entire game, best punishes in the game due to combo potential, mediocre recovery (but can still be tough to gimp due to its hitboxes and/or speed), mediocre neutral that forces him to rely on punishes or reads to get some kills, great frame data, not a lot of results aside from Trela
: mediocre neutral, amazing punishes even post-nerf, terrifying edgeguards, lots of kill setups, great combos (up airs), one of the best recoveries (especially horizontal recovery), amazing frame data, great results from a number of ZSS mains including Marss and Nairo
: one of the lowest learning curves of all the top tiers (if not THE lowest), great combos, one of the best overall ranges due to Buster Sword, great mobility, ridiculous frame data for someone with a range like his (and pretty good overall), scary edgeguarder, second worst recovery in the game, Limit Breaks, is EVERYWHERE is the competitive scene
: great frame data, Luma, good recovery, Luma, memes on projectile users by having Luma block stuff or using down special, Luma, can kill ridiculously early with up air at maximum rage, Luma, not a lot of good results outside of a few mains and Dabuz, did I mention Luma?
: good neutral, scary edgeguards despite the lack of meteor aerials, good at safely racking damage from very far away, good frame data, amazing aerials (especially bair), great kill potential, good combos, not a lot of results aside from Larry Lurr
: no drastic weaknesses aside from a mediocre recovery and probably the worst overall range of all the top tiers, decent projectile, terrifying edgeguards, scary grab game (though not as scary as ZSS's), good kill potential, amazing results from Ally since March as well as some good results from other Mario mains
: one of the most annoying characters to deal with, one of the best defensive neutrals, mindgames ahoy, good recovery, gotta respect that grab game, one of the worst KO potentials of all the top tiers, good results from most notably SuperGirlsKels (who I met IRL) among others
: gate keeper of top tiers (imo), amazing mobility, great recovery, second best airdodge in the entire game, crazy KO potential, tall and light makes it easy to hit and kill him, amazing results from Abadango

Ryu at #3 sounds weird, but he does have the potential to be one of the best, if not THE best character if played at his absolute scariest.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

You didn't ask me, but I'll share my opinion.

Spoiler

: one of the best neutrals (if not THE best), the best projectile in the game, amazing combo game despite the nerfs, scary edgeguarder, one of the safest recoveries, great frame data, great results even post-nerf
: amazing neutral, great punishes with bananas, great zoning, scary kill setups, great frame data, amazing recovery (though easy to mess up or get gimped in some MUs), great results overall (especially from ZeRo)
: extremely high learning curve that is also just as rewarding, best combo potential in the entire game, best punishes in the game due to combo potential, mediocre recovery (but can still be tough to gimp due to its hitboxes and/or speed), mediocre neutral that forces him to rely on punishes or reads to get some kills, great frame data, not a lot of results aside from Trela
: mediocre neutral, amazing punishes even post-nerf, terrifying edgeguards, lots of kill setups, great combos (up airs), one of the best recoveries (especially horizontal recovery), amazing frame data, great results from a number of ZSS mains including Marss and Nairo
: one of the lowest learning curves of all the top tiers (if not THE lowest), great combos, one of the best overall ranges due to Buster Sword, great mobility, ridiculous frame data for someone with a range like his (and pretty good overall), scary edgeguarder, second worst recovery in the game, Limit Breaks, is EVERYWHERE is the competitive scene
: great frame data, Luma, good recovery, Luma, memes on projectile users by having Luma block stuff or using down special, Luma, can kill ridiculously early with up air at maximum rage, Luma, not a lot of good results outside of a few mains and Dabuz, did I mention Luma?
: good neutral, scary edgeguards despite the lack of meteor aerials, good at safely racking damage from very far away, good frame data, amazing aerials (especially bair), great kill potential, good combos, not a lot of results aside from Larry Lurr
: no drastic weaknesses aside from a mediocre recovery and probably the worst overall range of all the top tiers, decent projectile, terrifying edgeguards, scary grab game (though not as scary as ZSS's), good kill potential, amazing results from Ally since March as well as some good results from other Mario mains
: one of the most annoying characters to deal with, one of the best defensive neutrals, mindgames ahoy, good recovery, gotta respect that grab game, one of the worst KO potentials of all the top tiers, good results from most notably SuperGirlsKels (who I met IRL) among others
: gate keeper of top tiers (imo), amazing mobility, great recovery, second best airdodge in the entire game, crazy KO potential, tall and light makes it easy to hit and kill him, amazing results from Abadango

Ryu at #3 sounds weird, but he does have the potential to be one of the best, if not THE best character if played at his absolute scariest.

Spoiler

Yeah, I agree with the top 2 and Mewtwo overall. I do have Diddy in 1st rather than 2nd in mine, but Diddy vs. Sheik is probably the closest thing we have to a tie in this game. Mewtwo being a gatekeeper makes a ton of sense, and I personally have him unlisted, but in 10th place.

TBH the rest of the characters were REALLY hard to rank for me. I could definitely see Ryu rising in the future, and his combo game is intimidating. However, outside Trela we haven't seen a lot of results. Other characters in top tier have been well established time and time again, moreso than Ryu. That's why I have Ryu in 9th.

Fox, Rosa, Mario, ZSS, and Sonic could be a 5 way tie if I really wanted to put it that way. With Fox, I gave him 4th place because while Larry is the single Fox main that's done a ton of work with him, Fox still has Nakat and others, which helps his results. Rosa's similar in that she only has Dabuz a lot of the time, but there has been some fantastic gameplay out of lesser known mains. Due to Fox and Rosa being similar in that regard, I placed them in 4th and 5th respectively, with Fox being higher because I think he has more potential in the future than Rosa.

Mario is next, in 6th. I would place him in 7th/8th due to being the top tier that has issues with disjoints (on my previous tier list I made back in April he was roughly even with Mewtwo), but Ally's really been showing all that Mario can do. Even his two weaknesses in recovery and meh range, Ally has shown that he can do a lot of crazy good stuff. Anti and Zenyou also have good Marios, but not up to the same standard as Ally. I have him lower than Fox and Rosa because even with Ally's streak lately, I think Fox and Rosa have overall stronger matchups and more potential.

ZSS is in 7th, and this was really tough for me. While I do think she still has plenty of good moves and representation under her belt, her nerfed neutral has become more obvious to me over time. Right after the patch, I would've probably ranked her 4th. Now, it's not the case because she hasn't been as dominant lately. Nairo and Marss are still doing good stuff with her, but it's less frequent. Mario, Fox, and Rosa have all gotten stronger results than her in the past few months, and even moreso in Cloud, Sheik, and Diddy.

Sonic is in 8th, and while he is vastly popular and has some scary good stats, he's not consistent enough for me to place highly. We do have four amazing Sonic mains in Wrath, 6wx, Super Girl Kels, and Komorikiri. However, 6wx is pretty inconsistent (a la ESAM), which leaves just three. And yeah, while Sonic's KO power is WAY better than it is in Brawl, I agree with you that he's still one of the weakest top tiers. It does take a while to KO with Sonic, since back throw was nerfed pretty hard.

So, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know the question wasn't directed at you, but I appreciate your opinion anyway. You follow the tournament scene as well, and you're probably the strongest Smash player on the bob-omb thread. So, I enjoyed your response.

Also...YOU MET SUPERGIRLKELS IN REAL LIFE?! Nice! She's probably my favorite Sonic player.

Alright, so our top tier comparisons go:

You: Sheik > Diddy > Ryu > ZSS > Cloud > Rosa > Fox > Mario > Sonic > Mewtwo
Me: Diddy > Sheik > Cloud > Fox > Rosa > Mario > ZSS > Sonic > Ryu > Mewtwo

Averages go-

Sheik (1.5), Diddy (1.5)
Cloud (4)
ZSS (5.5), Rosa (5.5), Fox (5.5), Ryu (6)
Mario (7)
Sonic (8.5)
Mewtwo (10).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know the question wasn't directed at you, but I appreciate your opinion anyway. You follow the tournament scene as well, and you're probably the strongest Smash player on the bob-omb thread. So, I enjoyed your response.

I'm far from the best, to be honest.

Metalbro, Luig and Plop make me feel like a low tier

Also...YOU MET SUPERGIRLKELS IN REAL LIFE?! Nice! She's probably my favorite Sonic player.

I also met some other top Canadian players like Venom and DarkWolf.

I'm very proud to have gotten demolished by them

 

[Devil May Plop]

I'm far from the best, to be honest.

Metalbro, Luig and Plop make me feel like a low tier

60

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Maybe I exaggerated, but I feel you've become better than me, even if slightly

 

[Blossom ✿]

62 Bob-ombs

 

[KingofPhantoms]

63

I need to play against some of you guys again sometime.

 

[Devil May Plop]

Maybe I exaggerated, but I feel you've become better than me, even if slightly

Hearing that from you (especially after that one match...) means a lot...

 

[Fluttershy]

65

So Bayo went back to being high-mid-low tier?

 

[Blossom ✿]

66

And I still need to actually play some matches with at least one of you.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So Bayo went back to being high-mid-low tier?

She still has an amazing combo game, just harder to pull off and no longer able to use many of her 0-deaths.

So yeah, definitely high tier.

 

[Doctor Wario]

68 people have been on smashboards for a year

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I'm far from the best, to be honest.

Metalbro, Luig and Plop make me feel like a low tier


I also met some other top Canadian players like Venom and DarkWolf.

I'm very proud to have gotten demolished by them

Really? I've never played Metal, Luigi, or Plop before. I've only played Arrow of Light/Fluttershy and King of Phantoms before. I'm not sure how I would stack up against the rest of the thread, but overall I'm roughly equal in skill level with KoP, while AoL is definitely the better player if it's me vs. him. So, AoL > Me/KoP

She still has an amazing combo game, just harder to pull off and no longer able to use many of her 0-deaths.

So yeah, definitely high tier.

I agree. I have Bayo in 12th right now, between Pikachu and Meta Knight on my latest tier list draft.

69

 

[Fluttershy]

70 magenta users

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

71 users that are pranked

 

[Blossom ✿]

72 plain ole' users

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

The Stoopid Unikorn Well, since we've talked about my personal tier lists in the past, and you have well thought-out opinions on the characters, here's my current personal tier list (subject to change at any moment):

Spoiler

Top:
High:
Borderline:

Upper Middle:
Middle:
Lower Middle:

Upper Low:
Low:
Bottom:


Characters are in order! So, Diddy > Sheik > Cloud, etc.

*Extra stuff:
Top Tier: You already know what I think about them
: Abadango is definitely like Ally in the way that he's the face of his respective character. However, Mario has been more consistent than Mewtwo, and while Mewtwo can still take on the top tiers (I personally think he has a minor advantage against Sheik), his weight and large size can harm him in certain matchups.
: I had him at borderline high tier before, but now he's full on high tier. I knew that his projectiles were strong, but Kamemushi showed all of what MM can do in a new light.
: I only placed Villager in mid tier because Ranai was inactive..and that was foolish of me. Villager's still a strong character, but it's just that his representation has gone down.

Borderline tier: I think all of these characters have potential to win in the future, and all have at least one good matchup against a top tier. However, none are dominant enough to be top 16.

vs. : While Marth's results are WAY better than Lucina's (Marth is in top 15 for TRs according to Das Koopa, while Lucina's in the bottom 10), the tipper effect doesn't harm Lucina too much. I still think Lucina can do good work, but it's just that Marth's tipper gives him a stronger zoning game (but it's not too much of an advantage). They aren't radically different as characters, so they are less than 10 spots apart.

and : Lucario was at the top of low, and DH was borderline bottom tier if I remember correctly. This was foolish of me because players are putting good work into these characters in Japan. So, while I still think DH is a low tier, he's better than what I first thought. Lucario is now a solid mid tier.

: And yes, Jigglypuff is NOT the worst character in the game. At least she's used in tournaments on occasion...try finding a Swordsman player and you'll have better luck winning the lottery. Besides, I've seen a little bit of good gameplay out of Jigglypuff that I still have yet to see out of Swordsman.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

vs. : While Marth's results are WAY better than Lucina's (Marth is in top 15 for TRs according to Das Koopa, while Lucina's in the bottom 10), the tipper effect doesn't harm Lucina too much. I still think Lucina can do good work, but it's just that Marth's tipper gives him a stronger zoning game (but it's not too much of an advantage).

>tipper isn't not too much of an advantage
>tipper fsmash kills ridiculously early

top kek

: I had him at borderline high tier before, but now he's full on high tier. I knew that his projectiles were strong, but Kamemushi showed all of what MM can do in a new light.

I was thinking the same thing.

: And yes, Jigglypuff is NOT the worst character in the game. At least she's used in tournaments on occasion...try finding a Swordsman player and you'll have better luck winning the lottery. Besides, I've seen a little bit of good gameplay out of Jigglypuff that I still have yet to see out of Swordsman.

Be right back, gotta buy lottery tickets.

But jokes aside, I actually know a Swordsie main IRL, but no Puff mains IRL (though I do chat with one of the world's best Puffs from time to time on Discord)

We jokingly call him "the best Mii main in Quebec" since he's the only one in the province who actually plays them in tournament sets. He picks Mega Man for Mii-banned rulesets as well.

His Swordsie can actually give me a run for my money.

 

[Doctor Wario]

75 wario wafts

 

[Blossom ✿]

76 Bob-ombs

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

>tipper isn't not too much of an advantage
>tipper fsmash kills ridiculously early

top kek


I was thinking the same thing.


Be right back, gotta buy lottery tickets.

But jokes aside, I actually know a Swordsie main IRL, but no Puff mains IRL (though I do chat with one of the world's best Puffs from time to time on Discord)

We jokingly call him "the best Mii main in Quebec" since he's the only one in the province who actually plays them in tournament sets. He picks Mega Man for Mii-banned rulesets as well.

His Swordsie can actually give me a run for my money.

I know the thing about Marth could've been worded better. Yeah, Marth has stronger smash attacks, and that's no secret. However, the tipper doesn't automatically make Lucina unviable.

With professional smashers, I know right off the top of my head that Seyrender has done great work with Puff in regionals. Hungrybox, even though he's overall inactive in the smash 4 scene, will still pull out Puff when he goes to Smash 4 tournaments (although when he does play he'll normally switch to Mario by the end of his set). Swordsman?...I can't think of anybody at all.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I know the thing about Marth could've been worded better. Yeah, Marth has stronger smash attacks, and that's no secret. However, the tipper doesn't automatically make Lucina unviable.

I completely agree.

With professional smashers, I know right off the top of my head that Seyrender has done great work with Puff in regionals. Hungrybox, even though he's overall inactive in the smash 4 scene, will still pull out Puff when he goes to Smash 4 tournaments (although when he does play he'll normally switch to Mario by the end of his set).

I was thinking of RDR7, actually.

Swordsman?...I can't think of anybody at all.

Miis don't usually do that greatly in tournaments, to be fair.

However, AEM has some great Miis.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I completely agree.


I was thinking of RDR7, actually.


Miis don't usually do that greatly in tournaments, to be fair.

However, AEM has some great Miis.

One of our own mods mains Miis? Nice!

BTW what's your smash 4 tier list outside of the top 10?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

One of our own mods mains Miis? Nice!

BTW what's your smash 4 tier list outside of the top 10?

It's still kinda fuzzy for me beyond the first 10.

I'd say that top 20 definitely has Villager, Mega Man, Bayonetta, Ness and Meta Knight somewhere, but besides that, I honestly have no idea.

Also, bottom 2 are Puff and Swordsie, but I'm not sure which is worst.

 

[Blossom ✿]

81 Bob-ombs

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

It's still kinda fuzzy for me beyond the first 10.

I'd say that top 20 definitely has Villager, Mega Man, Bayonetta, Ness and Meta Knight somewhere, but besides that, I honestly have no idea.

Also, bottom 2 are Puff and Swordsie, but I'm not sure which is worst.

Alright, that's ok.
I personally think Puff > Swordsman. Tbh, I could put Puff and Swordsman in a tier on their own. At least the other bottom tiers have things/moves that set them apart. Puff and Swordsman are just...worthless.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Alright, that's ok.
I personally think Puff > Swordsman. Tbh, I could put Puff and Swordsman in a tier on their own. At least the other bottom tiers have things/moves that set them apart. Puff and Swordsman are just...worthless.

Puff has some stuff tho

She was actually a legitimate Bayo counter because of Rest before the 1.1.6 patch nerfed the witch, IIRC

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Puff has some stuff tho

She was actually a legitimate Bayo counter because of Rest before the 1.1.6 patch nerfed the witch, IIRC

.....wat? Why didn't I hear about this?
Besides, Rest is no longer a practical KO move like it is in Melee. It's not that viable anymore.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

.....wat? Why didn't I hear about this?
Besides, Rest is no longer a practical KO move like it is in Melee. It's not that viable anymore.

Just use Rest before Bayo's up air hits you.

It's glorious!

 

[Blossom ✿]

86 Bob-ombs

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Alpharad's next Replay Hut is for Smash 4 newcomers

I'm sure Plop knows what I sent

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

88 replay huts

 

[Metalbro]

89 bob-ombs

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

90 miiverse videos

 

[Devil May Plop]

Alpharad's next Replay Hut is for Smash 4 newcomers

I'm sure Plop knows what I sent

A-Aether...A-Aether...Aether...