Gheb said:
When was I "on" you? I don't think I've ever voiced suspicions in regards to you and if I did it can't be more than a fos earlier [although D1 you weren't in the game and D2 I was after Cheese / Jungle]. I agree with the rest though.
Actually you got at me pretty hardbody for finding Tandora suspicious because some of the things she was guilty of could be applied to Soviet Coffee. Meanwhile I'm whacking my head with a brick screaming I'M SUSPICIOUS OF HIM TOO DAMMIT GHEB YOU KNOW I DON'T PUSH MORE THAN ONE AT ONCE ARGH WHY ARE YOU DOIN ME LIKE THIS
You also hit me with a pretty weaksauce FoS but I just ignored it because a tangent wasn't going to do us any good whatsoever.
MS said:
So these two facts put together, I ask you to look at Tandora, who went from being under much scrutiny from RonEEke, to now being arguably the most town player here? thats a 180 degree turn. This completely stumped me for quite a while until I realise, if Tandora was recruited, she would then be open to being guided by someone we know is already a very experienced player, is it a coincidence her play becomes magically better?
You're suggesting that jungle might have recruited her N2, despite his being shot the same Night by the vig/SK? That's kind of unusual.
Her play has certainly 180'd, but in a surprising way for me. I know Tandora to be an emotional player at times from playing with her in Grammys 2, and her play can be severely weakened by this at times. I sure as hell wasn't going to let an OMGUS and an AtE get her off when we were going for her lynch, but her investigating me that Night lines up quite perfectly, and I think realizing her judgment as being clouded by OMGUS and emotion gave her some perspective -- that and the two scumflips. There's a hell of a lot more to work with, now.
Meanwhile her D1-2 play, for better or for worse, was nothing if not consistent.
For the most part these facts assuage any niggling doubts. And obviously I'm not going to support the notion that we're scum together, but yes, I have considered the possibility that Tando was recruited at some point, and the "investigation" of me N2 and prompt 180 was a ruse, possibly handed to her by a stronger player who cited that the odds would favor her being town if she acted as such while also possibly making a friend of a former enemy (me).
Niggling doubts, but I'm ignoring them for the time being. In particular, the fact that she quite clearly hesitated to claim is a point in her favor. Did she jump the gun on outing herself in general? Yes, but throwing that aside, did she really jump the gun in revealing herself so as to clear me and Gordito? Nah, not really. Her hesitation was blatant when she tried to get people to back off using voting patterns from both scumflips thus far, and lines up with something I might have done as a cop.
Then, well, look what it was taking from me to get Gordito to step off my balls.
Look at that ****. What Tandora did was not at all bad play nor play that doesn't line up for a cop that is looking at a heated TvT. Especially when a lot of the town is putting blinders on and tunneling on one of them.
****, I claimed cop on D3 in a game once, after back to back scum lynches. Granted, I had a guilty, but we also had a cult leader (recruits every night), and that game turned out fine.
If you look at the way OS, Soviet, and Edreeses froze up in their pursuits like deer in headlights, I don't think you could possibly argue the claim didn't effect any good.
Tando said:
It told me everyone was focusing on a role we cannot prove one way or another. Does Jungles ability sacrifice him for another? It is one time use? Did he actually use it? Does it alter someone's vote subtly? We just don't know. We're spending a lot of energy on what could be just flavor.
Well, let's not forget that mentos all but confirmed that I was right about a recruiter to Ronike.
To Soviet Coffee's post, hah, interesting. Adum backs off on something for once, eh? Fun to see him get flustered by the cop investigation, defend himself without accusing people of deliberately misconstruing him. Fun and interesting.
We'll see what's what, bub.
MS said:
@RonEEke: Thoughts on OS?
Hah, well, you may recall asking me whom it was in the "smart tier" that I felt could have made the judgment call necessary to kill Dr. Riddler on N2. One of my two favorites was OS.
I guess this is as good a time as any to do what I did with Soviet earlier, not that it did much good, but here we go. I don't like OS at all, and I'm starting to consider that he could be the recruit -- not that Original Scum is off the table, or anything.
Late on D2, OS had a vote on junglefever. Cheez also had a vote. Goomba posts some pretty legit meta -- even if you don't buy into his meta, I thought the protown scumhunting of it was plain as the blue sky -- on junglefever and the fact that he can somehow read a hydra that posts three or so individual lines per post. He says some other things, and vote junglefever.
OS discredits the meta and FoS's Goomba.
More non-notable stuff happens for a short time, then Cheez gets another vote. Then this:
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 21st, 1:29 p.m.
I think it is imperative not to lynch Nix toDay. I feel the urge to do the same, but leaving him alive will be a boon for us if my suspicions are correct. I have breadcrumbed as such and will explain those tomorrow. Hopefully the others here will feel the same.
Jungle is the one I am least knowledgeable of, of those who are posting. I can't seem to articulate how he feels about anyone or anything.
We need a lynch.
Dead weight goes first.
Vote Roneeke
To the
italicized stuff -- justify twice, vote once, am I right?
Maybe you guys had the right idea and were looking in the wrong place. By the way, OS, you never did get around to explaining that thing you were breadcrumbing or some such noise. Please do so.
Another vote for Cheez comes shortly thereafter.
Shizam! Ronike posts up a lynch case on Tandora. No one posts anything except the clearly-not-reading Macman and Gordo, who merely says good stuff but he won't be voting yet.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 22nd, 12:13 a.m.
vote Tandora
Strong evidence against Tandora. Slimy, wifomy, unreliable evidence... but strong in this type of scenario. Why give him a guaranteed "live through the day" card, I wonder? Others seem to think that is possible. Letting yourself be blinded by previous thoughts is a surefire way to lose. I'd rather hear Tandora protect herself rather than let others do it for her.
The points after what is underlined are rather generic, but who ever knows what the hell actually gets through with that posting restriction.
But take not of what is underlined. My thoughts in the moment were "pretty fence-sitty, but I'll take it... I guess... hmmm..."
Tando posts her baffling non-defence then moves onto Cheez.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 22nd, 12:33
I think I'll make it very clear to Tandora that if she doesn't defend herself, she will be the lynch for toDay. Being a politician isn't something I'm looking for; all I want is information. Why is Cheesecake still a target? Why is Roneeke's post ridiculous? Why want to lynch Jungle and Ron? What theory?
All questions that are worth lynching someone over, when the person who has the answer doesn't give it.
Questions she did need to answer, yes, but questions that look unusual in retrospect.
Tando wagon builds with two votes (Gordito, Edreeses) and a post from Cheez.
Gheb goes against the wagon and the lynch.
I don't find the case particularly convincing and I'm wondering why nobody questions it in the slightest. Blatant wagon hopping on day 1 is part of the reason why it's so hard to get information from what happened back then and I think it's a mistake to make the same play toDay. Ronike's case doesn't apply exclusively to Tandora - I found similar flaws in SC's play [inb4OMGUS] to name an example and complaining about activity police is textbook scum play in EE's case.
Tandora's read on cheesecake lines up with mine [although I'd rather have jungle lynched], which is reason enough for me to find her somewhat useful - more so than COUNTLESS other people and I'm still getting more pro-town vibes [including her activity police play] from her than the majority of players.
Jungle can die. Cheesecake can die. OK with Chibo dead. These are the three people I'll join a lynch for if needed. Not OK with the Tandora lynch - I'll be keeping an eye on people who dump votes on her without putting too much thought behind it. Easy opportunity for expired scumcake and other scumbags to gain credibility by not joining immediately. Townies should reconsider.
Journal Entry, September 22nd, 9:25 a.m.
Goomba! isn't on his hydra. Irritating. Wish hydras would get modkilled for that.
He said he didn't understand the case against Tandora and had issues with it; I'm fine with that response, I feel the same way. I don't let Tandora off with an AtE post and a lack of response though. Instant death to anyone that says "psh, whatever" to a case is a pretty solid rule, imo. Gotta wonder why he doesn't even say anything directly to Tandora.[/quote]
For starters, it's bothersome the way the latter points push focus away from the case and yet still strongly support Tandora's lynch, as things stand.
@underlined statement: Interesting. Ronike posts a case, and it is "Strong evidence against Tandora. Slimy, wifomy, unreliable evidence... but strong in this type of scenario".
Gheb posts against it, and now OS "feels the same way".
What was that about politicians, now?
I pop in, as Ronike won't be around, to rebut Tandora's "defence", if it could be so called, and to rebut some stuff Gheb said. Nix posts some fluff.
Mad Scummy posts, querying about "when we're going to lynch Cheez, again?"
OS posts about Nix being useless. I grill Nix to post some actual content. Ed follows.
Soviet Coffee gets at Gheb briefly, disturbed by momentum of Tando wagon, doesn't find the case strong, agrees she should have to post a defence just the same. Votes junglefever.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 22nd, 2:20 p.m.
I've liked Soviet Coffee's statements toDay. Fine with Jungle as backup lynch.
Still think Tandora should die if she doesn't give a complete defense toDay, including answering every single question she's brought upon herself. This type of behavior will be nipped into the bud.
Still want Nix to survive toDay based on Dr. Riddler's completely baseless defense of Nix.
I post further thoughts on Tando's defence that have come up in the time since my last post on the subject -- which was nearly five hours prior. I think the post was perfectly level-headed and collected, wrongness of read be ****ed, and in no way unlike a typical post from me.
linky
Dr. Riddler (confirmed town) doesn't think tandora should die, feels the inactives should go first, doesn't "get" our credibility, thinks gordito and nix are town, doesn't find lack of defence scummy.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 22nd, 2:50 p.m.
Ronike getting desperate. Emotional.
Not too out of the ordinary.
He needs to relax. Pressure on Tandora is not because of Ronike's case, which is overall fairly weak at this stage in the game, but rather Tandora's dismissal. Ronike's AtE and pressure reeks. It feels like Ronike has made up his mind on Tandora's alignment before her rebuttal. I find it hard to believe that he could actually come to that conclusion, and even harder to believe that he's just that terrible at mafia.
Answers will come from Tandora. Acceptable, reasonable answers that don't lead to more questions. Otherwise, she dies toDay. If they do and they are acceptable, it is unlikely she will die toDay.
We need to look at other players. Junglefever has been a popular suspect. In the meantime, everyone should back off from Tandora and leave their votes on her; kill her tomorrow should she not satisfy our desires promptly.
No one seems to comment on Dr. Riddler wanting Nix to stay alive, or why I think we should listen to that. Do they not care, or do they understand why?
Total bull ****. A townie that is genuinely trying to lynch someone when the deadline is right around the corner needs to be urgent. Scum has no reason to be urgent -- their lynch target not flipping is less information that can track to them.
There was nothing "emotional" about my post, just the usual EE abrasiveness. And "desperate" is as sure a spin as I've ever seen. I hadn't spoken up yet, Ronike had been doing most of the prominent talking, and so now I wanted to say my piece, particularly on Tandora's superscummy nondefence. He acts like I was lashing out at people for not following us, or trying to use AtE's to get Tandora lynched.
This was one of the scummiest statements in the entire game, imo. It came off as blatantly opportunistic after several people (including strong town probable Gheb and confirmed town Dr. Riddler) had raised their doubts about us.
Unless he just can't resist the opportunity to fire off a backhand at Ronike, whom he thought had made the post, this part is bewildering. What the hell is the point of saying all that if he doesn't find it out of the ordinary?
Too much of OS's play from D2 and somewhat of D3 has been based on insinuation, and it comes across as himself planting seeds that other people would find favorable (we're desperately trying to get Tando lynched, for example) and have someone else take the ball and run it. This fits OS's alleged "puppetmaster" mafiat playstyle.
ABSOLUTELY BLATANT 180 from his earlier support of the case. His take goes from "strong evidence in this case" to "overall fairly weak". In between this change of opinion is a bunch of people, some confirmed or likely townies, saying they do not find the case compelling, or find it weak. I'm very bothered by this.
It's almost humorous that he says pressure on Tandora is not from the case, "but rather Tandora's dismissal." It's humorous because he laid his vote down after the case -- composed of "strong evidence against Tandora... slimy, wifomy, unreliable evidence, but strong evidence in this case" -- and not her dismissal.
This statement is what reeks. There was no AtE on our part at all -- this kind of statement is exactly why I held off on mentioning that whole family member in the hospital thing. So that I could watch for people trying to wrongfully accuse us of it.
And his statement that the pressure stinks is just... absurd. He supported the case, and called it strong evidence (in the most exit-strategy-available fashion possible, naturally) and now he's saying the pressure stinks -- conveniently, after other people have said as much. All this feels, to me, like OS simply lost track of a lie as scum. The way he so unsubtly changes his mind about something he'd taken a hard stance on, I don't like it even a little bit. And his method of going about it, as said above, sets off even more alarm bells.
And if he's trying to say that the post itself stinks, well. I provided a link. Go read it, guys. The fact is, it doesn't. The points I made in that post, in my opinion, stand taller than most of the initial case, which OS supported, just in case I'm not enough of a broken record.
Hah, what? What, exactly, implies that? Obviously there are always doubts when it comes to lynch candidates, but a lack of exploring them sure as hell doesn't constitute "making up your mind about their allignment.
The post he was responding to contained further thoughts on her incredibly scummy reaction to pressure, implying that it was an ongoing thought process. Cute attempt to use my own words against me that falls utterly flat.
This bothers me because the tone makes it pretty clear to me that he thinks Tandora is town, even if he wasn't trying to convey it. He expresses his confidence that she will provide acceptable answers, "otherwise, she dies toDay".
I dislike this because he advocates Tandora's lynch with this statement while avoiding actually calling her scummy, which he hasn't done from the beginning, despite voting for her and initially supporting a case that called her as much. I am forced to wonder if OS thought she was even going to return from her tantrum, or that she was going to disappear ala Grammys 2 and thus make for a convenient, guilt-free lynch?
Still, I did agree internally that other people needed to be looked at, so I backburnered these feelings until now.
But seriously... this post... it really made the hair on the nape of my neck stand on end.
Junglefever is his first suggestion for someone to look at, though earlier he had his vote on him, was followed by Goomba, FoS'd Goomba, and voted for me. But now he's interested in junglefever again. Intriguing.
Not sure what to make of the bit about Dr. Riddler and Nix, but Dr. Riddler is confirmed town, so I'll just say that their whole vaguely info-fishy interaction bothered me a bit and move on.
Immediately after that post:
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 22nd, 2:54
The ink had hardly dried on the page from my last entry before this one. Dr. Riddler swooped out of nowhere to make himself just as acceptable a target as Junglefever for toDay, should Tandora defend herself accurately and fully.
If my suspicions of Dr. Riddler are incorrect and he is telling the truth at the baselessness of his claim, I would daykill him if I could. Such uselessness should not be tolerated.
Dr. Riddler took a large number of concrete stances in that post, and yet he acts like it was a fluffy junglefever post. Bothersome, very bothersome.
Also notable that he has said Dr. Riddler is now as much of a target as junglefever (which I think is and was at the time utterly wrong), "should Tandora defend herself fully and accurately." So if she doesn't, y'know, no worries, we'll just lynch her instead of either of them.
Then if we did lynch her, he has this spot to fall back to, with Dr. Riddler and jungle being his favorite inactives to harp on. One of whom is mafia.
I can definitely see this as some serious pre-Endgame bad guy play.
More OS vs Dr. Riddler talking about possible hidden information etc etc
Gordo comes in with this post, which I thought was super protown:
Gordo said:
There are simply better choices than Nix. Still not liking Expired. And HATING Tan's response to pressure. But hopefully she'll see that she's at -L-3?- and get onto a defense. And junglefever, not my preferred lynch, as of now I'm not gonna vote it, but still a better lynch than Nix imo.
In order, he doesn't find Nix an optimal lynch, which based on voting patterns is looking like a protown thing to say. He's still on Cheez. He hates Tan's response to pressure, as anyone should, but wants to wait and see; I like the lack of lawyerspeak here, he takes a concrete stance and then says he's willing to wait for a response, rather than endless justifications for either the hate or the wait. Junglefever isn't his preferred lynch -- and he's not the godfather either -- but he's
still a better lynch than Nix. Which, hell, even if Nix was mafia (which I doubt), this is still true. Junglefever was sure as hell a better lynch than Nix.
Tandora posts a defence, Cheez gets at Nix's uselessness.
Votecount at this time:
[4]Tandora: ronEEke, Overswarm, GorditoBoy69, Edreesespieces
[3]eXpiRed_CheEezCaKe-- (Guus/Vrael hydra): Dr. Riddler, Mad Scummy, Tandora
[2]Junglefever: Goomba!, SovietCoffee
[1]Nix2100: eXpiRed_CheEzCake--
Mad Scummy nudges town to make up their **** minds, which I completely agree with. Could still be seen as scummy if he didn't have a vote down, but he did, and it was on the godfather. Suggests ditching the Nix wagon. Finds something Tando said reeking but doesn't see enough to lynch her.
Ed goes for nix instead (Tando brought down to 3 votes). "I've seen some good stuff out of other lynch candidates, including Jungle, but nothing out of this one so I'll return my vote." is a notable quote. Frankly I thought Jungle's play was utterly awful from dawn to dusk, but maybe that's just me.
Gheb gives me a totally weakballs FoS
Oh and he also quotes Mad Scummy's query of when we're lynching Cheez, to which he responds "right after Scumbagfever".
Nix asks Edreeses if he thinks he's really going to get him lynched at DL-18 hrs.
Cheez asks grills nix for a while for not voting tandora. Feels like TvS to me. It's really blatant fake scumhunting on Cheez's part (that conveniently avoids talking about junglefever) and Nix obstinately refuses to answer him with any kind of substance. Like always. I don't think that if they were SvS, they'd be taking such a tactic when it was so utterly fruitless and made them both look like such poor players.
Soviet said:
Tandora gave a defense, can we please kill our remaining scummy lurker (Junglefever) before the day ends?
Interesting that this comes on the tail end of ****ty fauxhunting on Cheez's part. At this point, Cheez had three votes, and jungle had 2.
Tandora agrees and moves her vote FROM cheez TO jungle. Now it's jungle at 3 and Cheez at 2.
Mac vs Ronike for a lil bit. Ronike responds to Tando's defences. Feels good about Tando lynch still. Mac vs Ronike again, Mac finally reads the **** posts and comes out leaning town on us. Worth noting that before doing so Mac put us on a deathpool. Worth noting because he ended up dying that Night.
Soviet said:
The reason I don't like Jungle is because she's not just a lurker, she's a scummy lurker, I don't like how both her and her predocessor had a tendancy to "come when called" but otherwise not post, cause it suggests that they were following the thread but avoiding posting.
I've seen a number of scum do it, and I rarely if ever see town doing it, so it's more then just cutting the fat, it's dealing with somebody concretely scummy.
I'm not comfortable with lynching tandora, your case isn't strong enough to justify it and the wagon gained too much steam too quickly for me to think it's a completely townie wagon.
I actually like that post from Soviet. It's a perfect example of those doubts I have about them/him.
Mad Scummy presses on him, asking him to justify that Cheez isn't doing that. Asks about whether the timing of our case is scummy.
Insert
this post, which I've talked about enough already, it's starting to be like pulling teeth.
Really like
this post from Gordo. Cheez > Jungle > Tando was the most protown course of action at the time, I think. His vote ties jungle and cheez wagons at 3 to 3.
Couple Gheb quips, meh, nothing much there.
Jungle gets at Nix, says he's the play, votes accordingly. Puts Nix at 3, thus tying him to jungle and Cheez's wagons. I really,
really don't see this as SvS. Seriously. The mafia recruiter and the mafia godfather both have lynchable wagons, so he ties up the third man out with the other two?
Really?
Scum did a double-bus in Bruce Willis Mafia, and even that wasn't really as pronounced. But a TRIPLE bus? **** that ****. Nix town. Deal with it.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 23rd, 2:14 p.m.
unvote vote Junglefever
What's the deal with people not answering others criticisms? It seems everyone is just ignoring claims against them.
Pretty weak reasoning for a vote this late in the game, despite being a legit complaint. Is OS all out of scumhunting juice this Day or something? Lordy. And the timing is interesting, because Cheez was JUST tied jungle none too long ago, as was Nix. This puts him on one of two mafia wagons, and not the one that's a godfather, and gives this non-godfather wagon a +1 advantage.
Negligible Gordo post.
Edreeses notes a Cheez and Jungle connection to Nix, ends up voting Cheez. Do like. I was all set to clear him on this one when rereading during N2, but the possibility that the recruiter hadn't recruited yet dampens that conviction. At any rate, wagons are tied, just as jungle was pulling ahead, thanks to OS. 4v4.
Negligible Gheb post.
Crappy post from Nix with a Cheez vote. Cheez at 5, jungle at 4. Cheez is at L-2.
Ronike asks for the case against Cheez, rebuts OS somewhat, a bit too softly for my tastes, but eh, don't tip the whole hand etc etc. Wants a hold on the hammer to hear the case.
Gheb says he'd "gladly hammer" him, and "does so". Heh except not really. Cheez 6, Jungle 4, Cheez is at L-1.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 23rd, 2:51
I wonder if Gheb would like to be friends? If not, I think he'd need to die tomorrow. What's the play for tomorrow if Cheese flips town?
Definitely don't get the bolded statement. Nothing about OS's play demands or deserves Friendship so far in my opinion.
Gordo questions OS about this (do like), OS answers by explaining Friendship rather than the part about why Gheb would have to die if he doesn't want to be friends. Gordo presses on that point but OS doesn't respond to this especially valid statement: [in response to bolded statement above] "That's, like, a huge contradiction. If you're so sure of his alignment, and he DIDN'T wanna make friends, wouldn't it still be wise to agree with him, just not openly discuss opinions?"
Super valid point by Gordo in my opinion. Then Gordo asks OS to hammer Cheez.
Another post from Soviet I'm tired of talking about. Begs the question of "why are we again going for probably dumb town?" Notable. In pursuing us he hasn't really acknowledged the fact that he was actively defending Cheez against the lynch, while we simply provided our read (dumbtown) and requested the case against him.
Gheb would rather see jungle dead, unvotes and votes for him. Wagons tied 5-5
Gordo puts a case up on Cheez off the top of his head.
Gheb wants to know why nobody's interested in Chibo.
OS said:
Journal Entry, September 23rd, 3:14
I would rather see Jungle dead myself.
unvote vote cheesecake
Deadline is toDay, we need the Day to end with a lynch.
This is where the Day starts to get all aflong alfongkong for me. Whooole lot of bouncing between those two wagons.
Cheez 6 Jungle 5. Why did he vote Cheez? If he wanted Jungle to be dead he could have put him at L-1, with a +1 advantage over Cheez. It's possible he got ninja'd, as Gheb's prior post was but a few minutes before. I don't know, this is one of my "reasonable doubt" posts.
Chibo finally shows up, wants Cheez dead more than the other candidates. Pressed for details by Ronike. More stuff. Gheb hammers Cheez.
Chibo responds to press for more detail saying Tando and Cheez are his top picks and he likes the case on Tando.
Whew, that stuff was supposed to be just about OS, but ended up being about all of late D2. What I'm seeing, right now, is that we have at least one mafiat being an opportunist. Either backing the Tando lynch or going after me, both were very convenient moves for scum until very recently. We've DEFINITELY got one scum doing one or the other, and very possibly both. Overswarm has done both, and in the shiftiest, slimiest possible way.
I'll get onto D3 in a bit but I'm curious whom I've been ninja'd by.
