Best/Worst move ever?

[dandan]

just my take on the moves:

bthrows FTW!



Worst moves:

Link - hard one, probably grab though. Maybe f-tilt or jab.

grab can be confirmed with ff dair, fair and uair, ftlit can be good after utilt on heavies, so i would personally agree to the jab, though i might say usmash.

Falcon - jab

i feel falcon jab as a lot of potential as a zoning tool, especially against aggressive players. for me, his dsmash is way more punishable and avoidable.

Ness - down-B. If that doesn't count, f-tilt

downb can be used for cancelling on edges, however, if you disregard the recovery aspect, then maybe. ftilts has it uses, i think you can ftilt dash dair, like you can with third hit of jab. i would say dtilt is probably the least useful.

Yoshi - grab

parry.

Kirby - u-air or down-B

after breaking a shield, you can uair to grab, useful on hyrule, can move them like that under the platforms and kill with fthrow, but yeah, not that useful. downb can have it uses, but usually has better alternatives, but for some reason i feel B is worse, unless we count teams as well, then the saves come into play.

Fox - f-tilt or dash attack

ftilt can be useful for shield pressure, as you can ftilt and then dtilt (iirc without the opponent being able to grab). upward angled ftilt is also very useful for combos on hyrule. dash attack can be useful for hard to reach edgeguard. if you disregard recoveries, and upb is not a good one at that, it is even worse for attacking purposes, so i think that might be his worst move.

Pika - jab

jab grab is great, and also jab spam vs wall. i would say his dsmash for the same reasons given with falcon

 

[The Star King]

dandan how many times do I have to tell you that a fastfall being needed to guarantee a grab doesn't make sense, unlesss fastfall adds shieldstun or something (I doubt it)?

Nah. Only other ways to really lead into Uairs is to catch 'em with one when they're already at a pretty good % or to Usmash them (GL with that). You can fthrow to bair, C-hop Fair (DI wrecks it mostly but w/e) and get some good damage, and fthrow-Dair is priceless at mid %s.

Bottom line, you need both.

Normally I'd be worried that my opinion was different from A$'s and SK's, but these are the same guys who think Kirby/Falcon is +1

USmashing or uairing them is not hard

Woah, FThrow to bair! That's like a Samus-level combo right there. Freaking INSANE, man.

I said it's +2 (and on DREAMLAND), ans A$ never gave a number. You're dumb. And A$/SK? Try A$/SK/Boomfan/asianaussie/ciaza/kys/clubba/Olikus/pretty much everyone else, except Emmanuel I guess lol

 

[dandan]

the ff part did not come from me, i think malva or boom told me that once, and i tend to go with them, i would like to check with you then, lets try normal and ff dair and see which gets grab confirm.

 

[The Star King]

I think you got that from s2j's guaranteed grabs vid

It could POSSIBLY make sense if he meant if you hit the top of a shield, since you land earlier (although I'm inclined to think that the extra landing lag would cancel that out)

But otherwise, if you hit on like the frame before you land, non-fastfalled dair has a 4 frame advantage, so only ff dair doesn't make sense

 

[DMoogle]

Worst moves:

Link - hard one, probably grab though. Maybe f-tilt or jab.

grab can be confirmed with ff dair, fair and uair, ftlit can be good after utilt on heavies, so i would personally agree to the jab, though i might say usmash.

Link doesn't have any awful moves, just lots of average stuff. Of course grab has its uses, but u-air on shield never ever happens (and I use u-air a lot), f-air on shield can be better followed up with zenyore's shield break nearly always, and d-air on shield is usually risky without the fastfall, and with the fastfall, well, that just happens occasionally.

Never seen f-tilt after u-tilt on heavies. I feel like there would always be a better option (more up-tilts -> f-air or even f-smash).

Jab's main usefulness is the fact that it's Link's fastest move on the ground, which very often makes it his best option when he needs quick spacing.

I find U-smash pretty useful against heavies and averagies at low %, unless your opponent can consistently DI out of it (very few do). Even then, it's usually not a disaster, it just eliminates the possibility of a follow-up.

Falcon - jab

i feel falcon jab as a lot of potential as a zoning tool, especially against aggressive players. for me, his dsmash is way more punishable and avoidable.

Too slow, not enough range. I feel like it's rarely useful. D-smash is pretty comparable though. I do use his d-smash once in a while, and I'm usually pleased with the results. Unfortunately no good examples are coming to mind right now...

Ness - down-B. If that doesn't count, f-tilt

downb can be used for cancelling on edges, however, if you disregard the recovery aspect, then maybe. ftilts has it uses, i think you can ftilt dash dair, like you can with third hit of jab. i would say dtilt is probably the least useful.

Yeah, probably best to just not include down-B. It certainly is immensely useful at ledges.

Well, I've never seen that use of f-tilt before. I'd need to see it in action.

D-tilt is underrated. It's basically like a jab spam attack with crappy range, but sometimes it's his best option for edgeguarding because it comes out so fast.

Yoshi - grab

parry.

???

Kirby - u-air or down-B

after breaking a shield, you can uair to grab, useful on hyrule, can move them like that under the platforms and kill with fthrow, but yeah, not that useful. downb can have it uses, but usually has better alternatives, but for some reason i feel B is worse, unless we count teams as well, then the saves come into play.

They both suck. Never seen u-air used that way, and I doubt I ever will (I don't doubt it works though). Down-B is more fun though.

Fox - f-tilt or dash attack

ftilt can be useful for shield pressure, as you can ftilt and then dtilt (iirc without the opponent being able to grab). upward angled ftilt is also very useful for combos on hyrule. dash attack can be useful for hard to reach edgeguard. if you disregard recoveries, and upb is not a good one at that, it is even worse for attacking purposes, so i think that might be his worst move.

"upward angled f-tilt is also very useful for combos on hyrule" - very useful is a huge overexaggeration. It's simply an extra tool in Fox's set of tent tricks, and an easily eliminated one at that. Shield pressure maybe, not really sure.

No up-Bs counted. I just realized I included Luigi's best move as up-B. Er... let's make that u-air.

Pika - jab

jab grab is great, and also jab spam vs wall. i would say his dsmash for the same reasons given with falcon

Does jab-grab add any advantage to grab except for the extra %? I'm not sure. Regardless, I totally suck at jab-grabbing with Pika. His d-smash is way worse than Falcon's. I can't think of a single use for it.

dandan how many times do I have to tell you that a fastfall being needed to guarantee a grab doesn't make sense, unlesss fastfall adds shieldstun or something (I doubt it)?

Explanation bolded:

It could POSSIBLY make sense if he meant if you hit the top of a shield, since you land earlier (although I'm inclined to think that the extra landing lag would cancel that out)

But otherwise, if you hit on like the frame before you land, non-fastfalled dair has a 4 frame advantage, so only ff dair doesn't make sense

The most well-known example is Link's d-air, obviously. The video is "guaranteed grabs," Link's d-air isn't guaranteed every time without the fastfall. Without it, you have to pay good attention to your timing.

 

[Peek~]

Ness Ftilt is better than Dtilt

Ness worst is a tossup between Dtilt and Fsmash

 

[SilentSlayers]

Ness' Ftilt is boss.

Dtilt has its uses.

Fsmash dat Samus ball. Hehe

Edit: "Link - hard one, probably grab though. Maybe f-tilt or jab." - Moogle

Um... his f-tilt is incredibly useful, dunno what you're talking about. Edgeguarding, shield breaking, probably **** tent...

 

[The Star King]

The most well-known example is Link's d-air, obviously. The video is "guaranteed grabs," Link's d-air isn't guaranteed every time without the fastfall. Without it, you have to pay good attention to your timing.

I kind of doubt that the fastfall will make up much for the double landing lag, since you're already close to the ground so that you will land barely any faster with a fastfall. It wouldn't surprise me if S2J is mistaken, since he's not a TASer.

But even if I'm wrong, non-ff dair is still guaranteed if you use it late. Yes, this means it'snnot guaranteed in all situations, but you can say this about any move.

Kirby's uair - if you utilt characters like Falcon until like 60% you can uair -> strong fsmash them, and 60ish is higher percents than weak bair/nair -> fsmash work I think. Can also be useful in **** tent combos on semi-floaties, i.e. utilt Ness to like 40, fullhop uair him against green thing -> dtilt -> fastfall nair -> stuff. Can also be used for utilt -> uair -> more utilts on heavies, or to lead to an up-b. I guess some of this stuff is gimmicky but oh well.

The fact that Fox's ftilt is being even considered for his worst move makes me very sad. The greatest move that nobody knows about.

 

[Peek~]

I agree with SS, Link has a very good moveset. His worst is probably his grab

The fact that Fox's ftilt is being even considered for his worst move makes me very sad. The greatest move that nobody knows about.

Boom and I know this already

You are starting to think like us

 

[Dingus]

f-air on shield can be better followed up with zenyore's shield break nearly always...

What is Zenyore's shield break? Is there a video?

Thanks

 

[The Star King]

You are starting to think like us

Apparently not, my friend, because Link's grab is not his worst. Useful after you aerial a shield. Awesome for tent combos - I will pretty much combo Fox/Falcon/Link/Yoshi to death every time if I get a grab. Sometimes useful for edgeguarding purposes (edgehogging and bthrowing landing lag, grabbing Yoshi out of his jump, maybe grabbing DK to avoid getting blocked by those arms lol). Other stuff.

But it's a hard choice because Link doesn't really have bad moves (kind of like Mario/Yoshi/Fox IMO).

 

[asianaussie]

After extensive research, I've found that Samus's second jab is the best move in the game.

I hate it when I jab twice at high-ish percentage and the second jab misses. Hate it.

What is Zenyore's shield break? Is there a video?

Thanks

Probably that F-Air > F-Tilt > Up-B which isnt' a real shield break?

I use Fox's F-Tilt > grab all the time, sometimes unconsciously. My Fox is garbage though.

 

[The Star King]

Just tried in training mode and fair ftilt upb did 54% which is 1% away from breaking a full shield lol (assuming no shield damage - damn you, Samus usmash). Not sure if the shieldstun "combos" together.

 

[B Link]

a$ tried that "zenyore" combo 100 times to me in link dittos and they never worked once lol

I'd say link's dtilt is the worst. Doesn't usually combo into anything, not good for edgeguarding, can tech-chase a bit but can't follow with anything afterwards.

 

[Sangoku]

Fancy edgeguard: dtilt to fair. Doesn't that work?

 

[cyoonit123]

Fancy edgeguard: dtilt to fair. Doesn't that work?

eh i'd rather just utilt(back facing edge) to upB bair fair fsmash depending on their %. thats my preference though.

 

[ciaza]

Dtilt is cool for combos. Fair>Upsmash>utilt>dtilt>stuff on heavies for example. Granted a utilt can work more often than not in its place but it has its moments.

Jab does have its uses for link but I feel they are less frequent then any other move in his arsenal.

 

[Sangoku]

eh i'd rather just utilt(back facing edge) to upB bair fair fsmash depending on their %. thats my preference though.

Wasn't saying you preferred otherwise, but I was just pointing one possible use for dtilt.

 

[Sempiternity]

Dtilt is great on fastfallers when you're falling behind in Utilts at low percentages and can no longer "scoop" them up high enough.

 

[The Star King]

DTilt usually not comboing into anythig is simply untrue. DTilt's problem is that it's usually replacable with UTilt, though the lower/longer lasting hitbox might be better sometimes.

I personally use Link's jab a lot more than his ftilt/dtilt/maybe dsmash, but maybe that's just me.

 

[asianaussie]

Man, I use D-Tilt about eight times as much as the average Link player

arguably easier to time than D-Smash for edgeguards (for me anyway) and easily comboable into Up-B (aerial or grounded) or a standard aerial hit/combo.

Jabs might be better though. First jab anyway.

 

[DMoogle]

Backwards-facing u-tilt is by far Link's best edgeguarding tool.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Backwards-facing u-tilt is by far Link's best edgeguarding tool.

I love this, tis a great use for the best move he has!

 

[TANK64]

This thread is pissing me off! Link's dtilt combos into fair like pb&j. jfkdals;fjsdkl;as

Man, I use D-Tilt about eight times as much as the average Link player

arguably easier to time than D-Smash for edgeguards (for me anyway) and easily comboable into Up-B (aerial or grounded) or a standard aerial hit/combo.

Jabs might be better though. First jab anyway.

This. I <3 dtilt, and for edgeguards it doesn't pop them up to high because they get hit from lower at percents it normally would. And it can be timed pretty easily with a little anticipation.

Yea Utilt is better in every way- so what. "Reverse Utilt is good" < No ****, we're talking about Dtilt here BRO

and Link's ftilt is frickin' awesome! (and his jab)

and Fox and Yoshi don't have bad moves

and Yoshi's eggs are delicious

****in' haters

****!

 

[asianaussie]

fox's lightning kicks are pretty bad

 

[B Link]

You can't eat your cake and have it too. Link's dtilt has "uses," just like a samus utilt has "uses," but compared to the other moves it doesn't come up to par.

 

[asianaussie]

buy an extra slice of cake

d-tilt works on opponents in u-tilt chains when there's isn't time for walking u-tilts or they are too far away, like fox's d-tilt (but clunkier)

the angle is more vertical and provides you with enough time to walk and u-tilt more

comparing it to samus u-tilt is doing it a disservice

 

[Battlecow]

Link jab is worse than Dtilt

Isai does cool combo stuff with Dtilt, is what I'm basing this off of.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

link stabby stab against the wall is the best...WAAAAY better than his little dtilt move

 

[asianaussie]

don't you just pick hyrule and use like, boomerang, bombs and d-air

but i guess you can't pass up THE INFINITE

 

[ballin4life]

well, any person with at least decent di should be able to di out of the second fair kick and then punish you on the second one. for example, in falcon dittos, if you do that vs someone with good di, he will di the first hit down (if that is the shorter di distance) and usmash you.

edit: i am dumb, i thought the kicks referred to fair, forget about this post :D

if you use both fair kicks you're doing it wrong

Falcon does have lots of combo options. But uair combos work regardless of the opponents DI. Fair is one of the easier moves to DI out of, so combos with it could end up just getting you screwed. Pivot bairs are better, but still easier to DI than uair. Go back to that boom isai vid I posted, usmashing is used a lot (maybe more than fthrow) to set up very effective uair combos. So yea, usmash would do just fine.

I know spacing is fair and bair, that's what I meant when I said aerials. I didn't mean to include aerials, what i was saying is that at high level of play falcons fthrow isn't that helpful in the spacing area. I think that is one of the main uses you have for it with your playstyle, which is why I think you are overstating its importance.

see above on fair being easy to DI. although i do often prefer nair to fair.

You so wrong.

Single hit Fairs, nairs, what have you- you can do well without Uair most of the time.

truth

Most of your examples are combos against heavyweights or fastfallers. Good luck comboing, say, Pikachu w/o uair

And Falcon ditto is one matchup

But I would win this anyways

pika can be comboed without repeated uairs (e.g. bair/fair combos), but no uair at all makes it tough.


overall fthrow is better than usmash for combos but usmash is easier to get in with and almost as good. no uair falcon will lose to no fthrow falcon.

Nah. Only other ways to really lead into Uairs is to catch 'em with one when they're already at a pretty good % or to Usmash them (GL with that). You can fthrow to bair, C-hop Fair (DI wrecks it mostly but w/e) and get some good damage, and fthrow-Dair is priceless at mid %s.

Bottom line, you need both.

Normally I'd be worried that my opinion was different from A$'s and SK's, but these are the same guys who think Kirby/Falcon is +1

uair is good when the opponent is above you also, taking away that option leaves falcon very vulnerable to approaches from above if he's in the air

bthrows FTW!

Best moves (not including up-Bs... too weird to evaluate if you include recoveries). I'm going to generalize throws as grabs, since the grab has connected, bthrow and fthrow are both risk-free options:
Luigi - up-B
Mario - u-air
DK - grab
Link - u-tilt
Samus - d-air
Falcon - u-air easily better than grab
Ness - u-tilt
Yoshi - u-tilt
Kirby - hmmmmmmmm...
Fox - b-air? maybe u-tilt
Pika - u-tilt
Jiggly - rest

Worst moves:
Luigi - f-tilt or dash attack
Mario - f-tilt
DK - dash attack
Link - hard one, probably grab though. Maybe f-tilt or jab.
Samus - u-air. Underrated, but still trash
Falcon - jab
Ness - down-B. If that doesn't count, f-tilt
Yoshi - grab
Kirby - u-air or down-B
Fox - f-tilt or dash attack
Pika - jab
Jiggly - jab

Didn't put too much thought into it.

fox's utilt is such garbage.

you are sleeping on laser so tough.

i think fox's dsmash and fsmash are pretty replaceable, though neither is bad really.

 

[The Star King]

Fox's utilt is good. ur dum

 

[Sangoku]

It's garbage when I play fox, but it's good when my opponent plays fox.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

yeahh foxs fsmash and dsmash are suchh trashh, i think is utilit is realllyy good though?

 

[Sangoku]

Wut? Easy edgeguards. Am I the only one annoyed by this letter doubling thing by the way?

U-tilt has a weird hitbox, so it's sometimes good, sometimes garbage. And obviously u-tilt on shield is ****.

 

[TANK64]

Just tried in training mode and fair ftilt upb did 54% which is 1% away from breaking a full shield lol (assuming no shield damage - damn you, Samus usmash). Not sure if the shieldstun "combos" together.

Man I finally tried this (on a "full" shield) and POP! Put the biggest smile on my face. I will now be only trying this constantly every match. I now officially have the sexiest/worst Link ever. Get at me.


Fox's Utilt is great. Just different then that ridiculous Kirby Utilt.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

lol sorrryy about the double letter thing.. i woud imagine it does get kinda anoyying.
and yeah theyre good for edgeguarding, butt in normal combatt they're near terriblee and id like to thinkk actualyy getting the opponet to the edge is much more than half the battlee.

 

[Olikus]

Is someone even questioning fox utilt? Its a great move. Not close to one of the worst moves in the game.

 

[NovaSmash]

lol sorrryy about the double letter thing.. i woud imagine it does get kinda anoyying.
and yeah theyre good for edgeguarding, butt in normal combatt they're near terriblee and id like to thinkk actualyy getting the opponet to the edge is much more than half the battlee.

how old are u?

 

[ballin4life]

the hitbox on fox's utilt is just horrible