Best/Worst move ever?

[KeroKeroppi]

sooo falcon is doug? ive been looking at suddle comments about thiss, and im like who the **** is doug...

 

[Battlecow]

on certain characters and in certain situations, he can kill without having to uair them.

Take away the fthrow and you take away all his setups- Usmash doesn't do anything near.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

^^ This.
Falcon w/o Fthrow is like saying Luigi w/o Uair.

 

[clubbadubba]

Disagree. Look at falcon without each move.

without uair: Fthrow is only good at low percents, and only becasue you can use it to combo to a finisher. Without uair, you can't easily perform consistent 0-death combos off the fthrow, so its usefulness would be only to get the opponent up to mid percent. After the fthrow goes out of combo range (which is even earlier without uair), you would use bthrow anyway.

without fthrow: You can still use uair after an usmash or 2, and uair retains its usefulness throughout the whole stock since it can also kill. Spacing at the high level is mainly aerials anyway, so you don't lose much there.

 

[Peek~]

Why is no one else ranking Grabs? especially you Pika/Falcon/Mario players. you know damn well you guys are nothing without them. You dont have to rank just one, do what I did.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Why is no one else ranking Grabs? especially you Pika/Falcon/Mario players. you know damn well you guys are nothing without them. You dont have to rank just one, do what I did.

Maybe they don't want to admit it.

 

[clubbadubba]

To be clear, I know that my falcon sucks without grab. But I think high level players would rather have the uair than the fthrow. If we're talking about falcons grab as in fthrow and bthrow combined, than yea it might be better.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

@clubbadubba
It's the other way around.

In high lvl play, Fthrow, Fair & Bair are all more used than Uair.
Uair is more used for set ups.

 

[clubbadubba]

What high level play are you talking about? Went to mevsec's youtube, just looked at one of the boom vs isai falcon vs link from 2 months ago (the first 'high level' falcon match I saw):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slULZLOYJ9U&feature=channel_video_title

usmash is used just as much if not more than fthrow to start combos here. uair is the main combo move used. spacing is primariliy fair and bair. My understanding of setup is the first hit, in which case no, uair is not used for that. Maybe I'm not understanding your use of setup though. Anyways, uair > fthrow, OBVIOUSLY

 

[The Star King]

I think Doug's fthrow is better than his Uair, actually. Think about it; I'm pretty sure it's true.

I thought about it, and I concluded you're completely wrong and weird for even thinking this in the first place.

 

[asianaussie]

In what way is F-Throw better than U-Air? Not even gonna think about it, it isn't plausible.

I'm agreeing a lot with Star King lately

 

[cyoonit123]

Why is no one else ranking Grabs? especially you Pika/Falcon/Mario players. you know damn well you guys are nothing without them. You dont have to rank just one, do what I did.

well its hard to rank all the moves especially if its only limited to top 10. a better way to organize the list would probably be top 10 for each character or something like that. anyways... i just completely forgot about grabs... pikachu, falcon, ness, mario, luigi and dk all have ridiculous grabs. jigglys fthrow is great for comboes and bthrow throws you so far behind... see what i mean???? so manyyy <.<

 

[KeroKeroppi]

lol. samus link and yosh's throw. sooooooo bad aha!

 

[asianaussie]

all of those can be hitconfirmed easily and work great to punish repetitive behaviour (see: predictable djcing)

not good, but definitely not 'worst move' level bad

 

[Sempiternity]

Plus, the way time just stops as your opponent is snatched out of the air when landing a Samus grab is just beautiful.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

@clubbadubba
I think I'd waste my time trying to explain some sort of condition to you, so, sorry, nvm.

However, as said before, every move is good, it has its moment and place to use it, you just need to identify them.

And I'm looking at this...

In what way is F-Throw better than U-Air? Not even gonna think about it, it isn't plausible.

I'm agreeing a lot with Star King lately

 

[Battlecow]

Disagree. Look at falcon without each move.

without uair: Fthrow is only good at low percents, and only becasue you can use it to combo to a finisher. Without uair, you can't easily perform consistent 0-death combos off the fthrow, so its usefulness would be only to get the opponent up to mid percent. After the fthrow goes out of combo range (which is even earlier without uair), you would use bthrow anyway.

without fthrow: You can still use uair after an usmash or 2, and uair retains its usefulness throughout the whole stock since it can also kill. Spacing at the high level is mainly aerials anyway, so you don't lose much there.

O rly?

Dude, just as an example: Fthrow-Fair-Fthrow-Dair

At mid %s? Fthrow-dair.

Fthrow-pivot bairs, fthrow-pawnch, anything.

You don't space with Uair often against heavies. You space with Fair and Bair, and if you hit your reward is usually a grab to Fthrow.

Star King, AA, you just wrong. Tell you what: Falcon ditto. You use no fthrow. I use no uair. We'll see.

 

[cheeseball341]

Do you know that time as Falcon where your opponent is at high percents and you cant combo them. The time that all Falcon players constantly ***** about. Thats how it would be at all times if you didnt have uair.

 

[ciaza]

Battlecow you'll get stomped. SK will just aerial>upsmash>generic falcon combo.

 

[asianaussie]

falcon dittos are indicative of basically nothing lol

isn't battlecow known for spamming dash grabs

 

[Battlecow]

No. fthrow-fair-fthrow-dair is just one example. from 0 or low, you always have options out of fthrow. From mid, you should have kill options as well. From high, hit them with bairs or something or bthrow them.

Seriously, you guys think running up to people and Usmashing to combo would work anything like as much as you'd need it to? Nuh-uh.

 

[kys]

No. fthrow-fair-fthrow-dair is just one example. from 0 or low, you always have options out of fthrow. From mid, you should have kill options as well. From high, hit them with bairs or something or bthrow them.

Seriously, you guys think running up to people and Usmashing to combo would work anything like as much as you'd need it to? Nuh-uh.

There ARE more stages than just Dreamland, and not EVERY match is a Doug ditto. Uair wins gg

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

I'm with Battlecow in this.

Most of the time, Uairs are the easy way to go, but not necessary the best though.

 

[Sangoku]

^Wrong. Too many people try to do different things to look nicer, but in the end the standard uair combo would either be the same, or even better.

 

[Olikus]

Falcons Uair is riddiculus. Not only for combos but for plattform pressure, and if the opponent is high up and trying to get down on the stage. Falcon would get worse without his precious Fthrow no question about it. But without uair? He would be low tier.

 

[Sangoku]

It would be fun to have cheats that disable a given move. We could see which ones are more important etc.

 

[asianaussie]

it's all pretty matchup dependent

 

[KeroKeroppi]

**** just got real. i think you guys should follow throught with the falcon ditto match. i think it would be reallyy intrestttting.

 

[Infamous_Diablo]

i get where battlecows coming from saying that his fthrow makes falcons combos ten times easier to set up but then again without his uair his fthrow would be terrible. the two moves go hand in hand with eachother to set up nasty combos

 

[Battlecow]

Against floaties, Uair's definitely better, I guess. I maintain that fthrow kicks its *** against ff'ers

 

[dandan]

Against floaties, Uair's definitely better, I guess. I maintain that fthrow kicks its *** against ff'ers

well, any person with at least decent di should be able to di out of the second fair kick and then punish you on the second one. for example, in falcon dittos, if you do that vs someone with good di, he will di the first hit down (if that is the shorter di distance) and usmash you.

edit: i am dumb, i thought the kicks referred to fair, forget about this post :D

 

[clubbadubba]

O rly?

Dude, just as an example: Fthrow-Fair-Fthrow-Dair

At mid %s? Fthrow-dair.

Fthrow-pivot bairs, fthrow-pawnch, anything.

You don't space with Uair often against heavies. You space with Fair and Bair, and if you hit your reward is usually a grab to Fthrow.

Star King, AA, you just wrong. Tell you what: Falcon ditto. You use no fthrow. I use no uair. We'll see.

Falcon does have lots of combo options. But uair combos work regardless of the opponents DI. Fair is one of the easier moves to DI out of, so combos with it could end up just getting you screwed. Pivot bairs are better, but still easier to DI than uair. Go back to that boom isai vid I posted, usmashing is used a lot (maybe more than fthrow) to set up very effective uair combos. So yea, usmash would do just fine.

I know spacing is fair and bair, that's what I meant when I said aerials. I didn't mean to include aerials, what i was saying is that at high level of play falcons fthrow isn't that helpful in the spacing area. I think that is one of the main uses you have for it with your playstyle, which is why I think you are overstating its importance.

 

[Battlecow]

You so wrong.

Single hit Fairs, nairs, what have you- you can do well without Uair most of the time.

 

[SilentSlayers]

Falcon can live without uair and still be pretty high on a tier-list, but it requires you to be really really skilled. People like greginator have no place with that falcon. (LOL). k

 

[The Star King]

Star King, AA, you just wrong. Tell you what: Falcon ditto. You use no fthrow. I use no uair. We'll see.

Most of your examples are combos against heavyweights or fastfallers. Good luck comboing, say, Pikachu w/o uair

And Falcon ditto is one matchup

But I would win this anyways

 

[Battlecow]

Meh. Good luck comboing Pika without Fthrow as well.

 

[The Star King]

No FThrow would just kind of hurt setting up combos, while no uairs would simply wreck your combo game overall.

 

[DMoogle]

Star King, AA, you just wrong. Tell you what: Falcon ditto. You use no fthrow. I use no uair. We'll see.

bthrows FTW!

Best moves (not including up-Bs... too weird to evaluate if you include recoveries). I'm going to generalize throws as grabs, since the grab has connected, bthrow and fthrow are both risk-free options:
Luigi - up-B
Mario - u-air
DK - grab
Link - u-tilt
Samus - d-air
Falcon - u-air easily better than grab
Ness - u-tilt
Yoshi - u-tilt
Kirby - hmmmmmmmm...
Fox - b-air? maybe u-tilt
Pika - u-tilt
Jiggly - rest

Worst moves:
Luigi - f-tilt or dash attack
Mario - f-tilt
DK - dash attack
Link - hard one, probably grab though. Maybe f-tilt or jab.
Samus - u-air. Underrated, but still trash
Falcon - jab
Ness - down-B. If that doesn't count, f-tilt
Yoshi - grab
Kirby - u-air or down-B
Fox - f-tilt or dash attack
Pika - jab
Jiggly - jab

Didn't put too much thought into it.

 

[Battlecow]

Nah. Only other ways to really lead into Uairs is to catch 'em with one when they're already at a pretty good % or to Usmash them (GL with that). You can fthrow to bair, C-hop Fair (DI wrecks it mostly but w/e) and get some good damage, and fthrow-Dair is priceless at mid %s.

Bottom line, you need both.

Normally I'd be worried that my opinion was different from A$'s and SK's, but these are the same guys who think Kirby/Falcon is +1

 

[Sempiternity]

After extensive research, I've found that Samus's second jab is the best move in the game.