Best Players of All Time

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Are we talking about Isai in the modern metagame again? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyfxNPkp67Q

 

[Europhoria]

PC Chris is a close friend of mine, and although he isn't active in the tourney scene, he still plays regularly. He claims that he is currently playing at this best today, but is no longer the best in the world because the rest of the community grew and got better. That said, he's probably still top 5 in Tristate, but our tournament scene is lame, so who cares?

Bring him back please

 

[caLviN-1260]

not a chance.

Haters gonna hate I see a lot of veterans coming to MLG, but I doubt any of them will perform at their peak ability.

isai would get wrecked today, he'd have to practice and adapt to the new meta before he could become a threat again but that wouldn't be peak, that would be becoming better. Looking at chu and chillin recently they're doing pretty good today so I would like to see isai or azen take it seriously again but they wouldn't be top ten, not immediately at least.

It was just a thought honestly, like I don't actually see Isai returning to his former stature in the current meta/community

 

[nooga]

Does anyone here remember Nooga? He was a ****ing king.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Haters gonna hate I see a lot of veterans coming to MLG, but I doubt any of them will perform at their peak ability.

He's not trying to hate. After a while you will be able to tell how behind the older veterans are in the current metagame. The truth is most of them are better now than they were at their 07 peak ( like Max stated about PC), but the game has changed and it's not always enough. There are others like Chillin who are able to get better and even be a contender nowadays so it's not entirely impossible.

 

[keoryn]

isai would get wrecked today, he'd have to practice and adapt to the new meta before he could become a threat again but that wouldn't be peak, that would be becoming better. Looking at chu and chillin recently they're doing pretty good today so I would like to see isai or azen take it seriously again but they wouldn't be top ten, not immediately at least.

Isai created the metagame that EVERYONE uses with Captain Falcon. Look at the documentary, Isai was the first to use Captain Falcon like that and from there on out everybody uses the character like that. Its a metagame that is still used over 6 years later.

In the match he played against Captain Jack it was more than obvious that he was sandbagging, so you really cannot judge his performance because of that match. I dont think he would get destroyed against the recent top players ( Hbox, PP, etc..)

When he actually wanted to win, there was no one that could stand a chance against him, not even Ken at his prime.

Look at the documentary part 3 ( The episode of Isai ''Dont Get Hit''. The only time that Isai is motivated to play was during the tournament: ''The Moast 3'' and Isai defeated Ken 3-2. This was during the time that Ken was untouchable and Isai still won...)

In my own mind, If Isai is motivated, there is no one can take him on and win. Either modern player or old one

 

[caLviN-1260]

Isai created the metagame that EVERYONE uses with Captain Falcon. Look at the documentary, Isai was the first to use Captain Falcon like that and from there on out everybody uses the character like that. Its a metagame that is still used over 6 years later.

In the match he played against Captain Jack it was more than obvious that he was sandbagging, so you really cannot judge his performance because of that match. I dont think he would get destroyed against the recent top players ( Hbox, PP, etc..)

When he actually wanted to win, there was no one that could stand a chance against him, not even Ken at his prime.

Look at the documentary part 3 ( The episode of Isai ''Dont Get Hit''. The only time that Isai is motivated to play was during the tournament: ''The Moast 3'' and Isai defeated Ken 3-2. This was during the time that Ken was untouchable and Isai still won...)

In my own mind, If Isai is motivated, there is no one can take him on and win. Either modern player or old one

While you've got some things right, I'm not sure if he could take on someone like Mango if they were both playing at their peak ability.

 

[strawhats]

not sure isai could beat the top 5 even at his peak ability, plus some brush up on the current metagame...plus he mained falcon. Unless he pulls out his sheik.

 

[Twinkles]

Isai is by far one of my favorite Falcons, quite possibly my favorite to this day.

I still don't think at his peak he'd be good enough to tango with the top 5 of today. Game has changed tremendously since 2004-2007, people have come up with a lot more creative and efficient approaches and punishes since then. Which says a lot about the game, it says a lot about how deep it is and how much even the top players cannot fully master its ways.

Isai was hella baller though, and I think every Falcon main should invest some time into watching his vids.

 

[strawhats]

Isai is by far one of my favorite Falcons, quite possibly my favorite to this day.

I still don't think at his peak he'd be good enough to tango with the top 5 of today. Game has changed tremendously since 2004-2007, people have come up with a lot more creative and efficient approaches and punishes since then. Which says a lot about the game, it says a lot about how deep it is and how much even the top players cannot fully master its ways.

Isai was hella baller though, and I think every Falcon main should invest some time into watching his vids.

the sad thing is, the game has change even more tremendously since like 2007/2008. The game seems to evolve every year. Like i look at matches from 2009 and it feels like the punishes have become even more optimized in 2012/13

 

[choknater]

man isai is amazing you guys dont understand lol

he was sandbagging already in 2006 and getting 5th at majors

he is untouchable in 64 and the fundamentals carry

IF he kept up... IF he kept playing...














"a boy has the right to dream" - toonami

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Isai created the metagame that EVERYONE uses with Captain Falcon. Look at the documentary, Isai was the first to use Captain Falcon like that and from there on out everybody uses the character like that. Its a metagame that is still used over 6 years later.

In the match he played against Captain Jack it was more than obvious that he was sandbagging, so you really cannot judge his performance because of that match. I dont think he would get destroyed against the recent top players ( Hbox, PP, etc..)

When he actually wanted to win, there was no one that could stand a chance against him, not even Ken at his prime.

Look at the documentary part 3 ( The episode of Isai ''Dont Get Hit''. The only time that Isai is motivated to play was during the tournament: ''The Moast 3'' and Isai defeated Ken 3-2. This was during the time that Ken was untouchable and Isai still won...)

In my own mind, If Isai is motivated, there is no one can take him on and win. Either modern player or old one

I hate to be that guy, but someone needs to point out that the documentary is not an entirely accurate representation of the competitive smash scene. Yes, he was the original pioneer of Falcon and he did create the skeleton of what you would consider modern falcon play, but it's nowhere near the same. To compare a 2013 falcon to Isai's and say they play the same is a bit far fetched. I would even go so far as to argue that Darkrain had more influence in shaping what we know as the modern day falcon.

Disclaimer: I love the documentary like everyone else, but you have to understand that it focused on the 7 individuals and not the community as a whole. Huge powerhouses like Shiz, Darkrain, and PP were only mentioned 1-2 times and in reality, they were of great importance to the advancement of the metagame

 

[choknater]

shadowphoenix

the doc encapsulates smash from the very beginning to 2008 really well. source: 2002 join date. isai was the ABSOLUTE BEST and even darkrain couldn't touch him.

source:

this was one of the only times they played and darkrain got cg'd hard lol

he was WAY AHEAD of any other falcon at his time so it would be unfair for anybody to discredit what he's done for the character.

the doc was not originally created to cover all material up to the modern age. if you think about it, 2001-2007, which the first 7 episodes focus on, cover the same amount of time as 2007-2013, which are covered in the last two episodes. since major events were happening multiple times a year, it would be tough for the director to change his vision to be all-inclusive of the later eras, since he would always have to adapt

 

[HMWii22]

Isai's melee career

 

[caLviN-1260]

shadowphoenix

the doc encapsulates smash from the very beginning to 2008 really well. source: 2002 join date. isai was the ABSOLUTE BEST and even darkrain couldn't touch him.

source:

this was one of the only times they played and darkrain got cg'd hard lol

he was WAY AHEAD of any other falcon at his time so it would be unfair for anybody to discredit what he's done for the character.

the doc was not originally created to cover all material up to the modern age. if you think about it, 2001-2007, which the first 7 episodes focus on, cover the same amount of time as 2007-2013, which are covered in the last two episodes. since major events were happening multiple times a year, it would be tough for the director to change his vision to be all-inclusive of the later eras, since he would always have to adapt

I noticed how they seemed to rush what happened between 09 and now. Perhaps because the scene isn't quite as interesting now from documentary perspective as it was earlier in its life during the MLG era

 

[choknater]

the scene was definitely still very interesting, but '08-'13 is really pretty much the mango era. the director chose to focus the history of the current big 5 in only a few tournaments... apex series, FC, and evo. i remember from his AMA, he's satisfied with this decision, especially his focus on the mango vs hbox rivalry which was encapsulated at FC.

 

[smashbroskilla]

You guys talk about some of the old timers like they don't play anymore. I watched a youtube vid of mew2king and ken that came out yesterday at a tournament that mew2king won.

Like mew2king said on the first page; a lot of great people never traveled. Circa 2007 I played people all over Florida and saw tech I still don't see people use in their gameplay to this date.

 

[Pistallion]

Here's my 2 cents, coming from an old time local smasher and avid watcher of melee from the old days.

In the beginning, Ken, Isai, Azen, and Chu were the best. Chu sadly didnt get his own spot in the documentary because he was always in Kens shadow, but he was really good. At the time, no one knew how to play and these kids were just so much better than anyone else. Ken created Marth, Isai- c falcon, Chu-ICs. Other players such as Wes, Hugs, Vidjo created playstyles with characters like Peach and Samus so they deserve some shout outs.

During the golden era of Smash and the MLG era, no one dominated more than Ken. He even traveled to Japan, at a time where people were beginning to doubt how good he was. after beating bombsoldier in Japan, Ken was undisputed King of Smash worldwide.

There are a couple main eras in smash history. I think a big turning point in the history in smash was with the rise of PC Chris, M2K and Korean DJ. Before them, no one really unleashed the power of the spacies, and after the Bombsoldier match with Ken, people started to realize thier potential. I remember watching matched with KDJ and M2K, saying how these kids were the up and coming, with their tech skill so insanely good.

After PC won, and finally de-throwned ken at the MLG championship at Vegas, I think the game really came into its "modern" metagame. The true potential of Fox and Falco were unleashed, and people had a new understanding of the game. At the time, i remember puff was also on the rise, as Mango started to get some people talking after the MLG era.

As far as wondering if the great smashers can compete today? Id say yes and no. Most of the top smashers now have played back in the day and continued playing. Ken has made a small comback recently, being one of the best Marths in the country atm. Improving at this game takes a lot of time and practice, and most of the top pros cant just come back and compete again. Also, the lifestyle they need to live is probably a lot different than what they are currently doing, so thats a big hurtle they need to get over as well. I believe, though, that if players like PC Chris stayed with the game, they would still be good at it. Look at M2k, he was basically an old time smasher, and is still on of the Gods of Melee

 

[Garsykat]

Isai's melee career

except he doesn't get the girl at the end

and also, i think its especially hard to compare modern greats with past legends because of the both physiological factors (with age our reflexes start to decline) and the fact that these modern greats have been playing highly competitive games for 2, 3 or more years, constantly. Personally, I feel like any one of the guys mentioned in the doc would give the modern guys a run for their money if they start playing at a competitive level as much as they had in the past, or as much as Mango/M2K/DrPP etc.

but, what do i know

 

[Varist]

Isai created the metagame that EVERYONE uses with Captain Falcon. Look at the documentary, Isai was the first to use Captain Falcon like that and from there on out everybody uses the character like that. Its a metagame that is still used over 6 years later.

In the match he played against Captain Jack it was more than obvious that he was sandbagging, so you really cannot judge his performance because of that match. I dont think he would get destroyed against the recent top players ( Hbox, PP, etc..)

When he actually wanted to win, there was no one that could stand a chance against him, not even Ken at his prime.

Look at the documentary part 3 ( The episode of Isai ''Dont Get Hit''. The only time that Isai is motivated to play was during the tournament: ''The Moast 3'' and Isai defeated Ken 3-2. This was during the time that Ken was untouchable and Isai still won...)

In my own mind, If Isai is motivated, there is no one can take him on and win. Either modern player or old one

reading this makes me cringe

 

[caLviN-1260]

reading this makes me cringe

At least give a reason lol

 

[nooga]

At least give a reason lol

The stuff that he's cringing at is basically exactly what an optimistic and overly enthusiastic person who came in from the Documentary about Smash would say. In the Doc, Isai is pretty much presented as a god. I'm not saying he isn't good, but he did not shape the meta-game in a very decisive way while playing. The person quotes pretty much word for word the documentary, has 2-3 posts, and joined after the Doc aired.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

That's the exact problem I had with this entire thread

 

[slamjunk]

I know a lot of people are saying Isai is the best, and I know its because of that heart wrenching episode of The Smash Brothers Documentary.

But honestly, while Isai could have been the best, he could never do it on his own.
It was physically and mentally possible for Isai to be the best, sure -
But gamers are defined by the decisions they make in game and the choices they make on how to deal with certain problems they encounter,
Isai didn't have the emotional capacity and toughness to consistently be the best, he had it within his grasp, but his personality wouldn't let him reach out and take it.
It just wasn't who he was.
He wasn't the greatest smasher, he was the smasher that could be the greatest, but gave it to the people he loved.

That being said,
I would have to say Mango is the greatest smasher of all time.
I feel like Mango plays multiple games at once.
Smash Bros Melee.
His opponents mind.
The crowd .
He is an entertainer on top of being a smasher. I don't think people give him enough credit for being an SSBM God.
I think people take him for granted, and that he is greatly under appreciated. Like Isai, Mango can choose when to win or lose, not only can
he choose when to win or lose, he can sandbag and still be considered the best. Mango is so good, that people are bored with him being good.

Edit: I know it sounds like im licking mangos balls, but its just how I feel. Everybody wants to look back with nostalgia and say that the smash Jesus has come and gone, then start worshiping his memory, but the truth is that its almost 2014, people need to start thinking about the players who have been defining the metagame for the last 5 years. Seriously.

 

[caLviN-1260]

That's the exact problem I had with this entire thread

I get that, but the documentary isn't exactly inaccurate. I totally get that it missed out on a few things, every doc does. I do have to agree that Chu deserved a more prominent place in it, as I hear more and more about hoe good he was and how good he still is. You have to accept that fact though that many people are getting the majority of their Smash history from the documentary. Sadly not everyone was there to witness all of the players and events first hand since 2002.

 

[Deleted member]

chu's role was very underplayed.

isai was good but not that good.

this thread is hilarious to me because i did witness it firsthand in 2002.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Did your memories falsify the actual events which occurred at all for young smasher hype at people who did cool things?

 

[Landry]

But guys, the documentary taught me that Isai was teh best ever...

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I feel like a second documentary is going to have to be made if smash continues to snowball the way it has recently.

 

[Bones0]

Everyone knows Javi and Amsah were better than Ken back in the day anyway.

 

[snex]

chu's role was very underplayed.

no it wasnt. by the time chu caught up to the top players of the time, the game had already moved on and he was still just behind the best.

isai was good but not that good.

isai was ridiculously good. if he wanted something to happen in the game, it happened. for whatever reason, he just didn't want the wins (except against wes).

this thread is hilarious to me because i did witness it firsthand in 2002.

so did i. and its hilarious to hear names like darkrain and vidjogamer brought up, but the idea that somebody like ken could become top 5 if he had the motivation is not far fetched at all. everybody in this thread seems convinced that today's metagame has advanced so much that we old fogeys couldn't possibly keep up. sorry to break it to you, but the oldest of us (eddie?) are maybe 35, and people like ken and chillen are still in their mid 20s. and every time i play some of these young punks i still trash half of them - and that's without any practice whatsoever. and i was never that good to begin with. somebody like ken will tear shreds through these people if he wants to.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Chu was considered Top 3 in the US at some point. Definitely underplayed.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah you're basically wrong on all fronts. chu definitely got 2nd at like every national for like two years solid and that's mostly from picking stupid **** like DK or GAW vs ken in the finals over and over. isai was clearly talented but he definitely had some people just beat him and believe it or not it's not always sandbagging. seriously, he has an aim handle, go talk to the guy.

beating "half" of the entry level players makes you....exactly average for an entry level player. this is not something to brag about. any of the tier 3 players that started after 2009 would mop the floor with the old "good players" without much difficulty. neither of us would make it out of pools in a California or NYC local event with <40 players.

 

[snex]

chu got 2nd when who else was playing? lets see the brackets. and NO JOHNZ for losing to ken in the finals. isai never put the time into this game that others did, or that he does with 64. he just doesnt enjoy it. lets put it this way. if you took the top 100 players from that meleeitonme list, and included isai, and you forced them into a house where they had to play smash every day for a year, at the end of which you held a tournament in which everybody below the top 10 would be publicly executed, ken and isai are both surviving.

and i didnt say i beat half the entry level players. i said i beat half the players there. after not touching the game in years, even to practice. if the metagame has advanced so far as you claim, this would not be possible.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Chu got 2nd when everyone in the doc was playing. He was even ranked 2nd in the country according to the power rankings that existed at the time. "NO JOHNZ"
to Isai for losing to anyone he should've beat. While it is certainly possible, yet very unlikely, that Ken and Isai could make top 10 again, neither of them seem to have the drive so we'll never know. Ken's performance at KoC3 showed me that I may have been underestimating his natural talent for the game, but he still has quite a bit of work ahead of him if he's gonna start winning nationals. Also, I don't know Isai at all, but from what I've seen of him online, I would say that he would probably die on purpose just to let someone else live in your ******** hypothetical situation.

 

[Varist]

chu got 2nd when who else was playing? lets see the brackets. and NO JOHNZ for losing to ken in the finals. isai never put the time into this game that others did, or that he does with 64. he just doesnt enjoy it. lets put it this way. if you took the top 100 players from that meleeitonme list, and included isai, and you forced them into a house where they had to play smash every day for a year, at the end of which you held a tournament in which everybody below the top 10 would be publicly executed, ken and isai are both surviving.

and i didnt say i beat half the entry level players. i said i beat half the players there. after not touching the game in years, even to practice. if the metagame has advanced so far as you claim, this would not be possible.

Your scenario assumes that Ken and Isai are part of an elite group of players who have a natural, unconquerable "talent" for this game. As if all they would need to get back into dominating form would be weeks of consistent practice against people playing the 2014 meta to "update their gameplay" or something to that effect, and at that point their natural "being the best" ability is going to take over and win games for them.

This is wrong to assume. There is no evidence to suggest that Ken has more natural talent for this game than, say, Shroomed. It's an abstract quality to possess that cannot be proven or disproven so it's astounding to me how you can be so sure of yourself when your ideas are not based on logic so much as a hunch influenced by nostalgia.

I would never doubt your claim that Isai and Ken could become the top 10 in any such group, and that's because I'm thinking logically. But what you can't do is claim that they absolutely will make it out of that group.

Just because they're veterans and they discovered things doesn't make them innately superior to the professionals we have today. It just means they were the best at a different time, I would even say a simpler time. And they discovered things because there was simply a larger amount of things undiscovered, not because the pros we have today don't have "the magic touch" or the "all-knowing lens" of the veterans.

 

[MaNg0]

was gonna write a big post but the baby just woke up ROFL


mango mango mango mango

 

[dRevan64]

Isai uses AIM? Good lord almighty jesus what year are we in again?

 

[snex]

i still use AIM...

 

[KrIsP!]

I have concluded that snex is a troll. Well played. Are you even considering isai's play or just hus results back in te day? you cant just undermine the skill of players, many who started post-MLG but by now have played more than isai and accomplished many feats. Isai was ****ing awesome, he laid the ground work but people took that and added to it. If he played seriously and at his peak without any rust? He'd probably do well, but not top 10. I mean ken is currently 100th on a popularity contest of a ranking.