Best KO move in the game?

[PhantomX]

You CAN interrupt Wario's waft during those first 5 frames, but you have to have done your move before he's done his, it generally is just a stroke of luck when it happens XD

It shouldn't happen if used intelligently... I mean, you can also similarly jab snake's uptilt before it's hitbox comes out.

 

[:mad:]

But have Power and Great KO potential.

I think is much better than Kirby's Fsmash.

I never said they didn't. I only corrected the lag part.

And PX is right.

Yeah, you can interrupt it if say, the Wario uses the waft in the middle of a multi-hit attack. Same with moves like DK's punch.

 

[adumbrodeus]

dude be quiet u dont know what ur saying. its way easier to tip a smash than it is a nair. his fsmash can kill and is his quickest kill move. especially if u tip. but there is a reason it is so low.

No, your knowledge of Marth is lacking.


Tippered f-smash is a -40 frame advantage on shield, untippered (which can't kill) is -32. Shield drop is 8 frames, and Ike's foreward smash is frame 29, just for reference.

Yes, I'm telling you that if you hit shield and you tipper the f-smash, you get hit by an IKE FORWARD SMASH. That's how unsafe it is. Also, Marth leans forward when he does it, meaning that moves that wouldn't be in range, ARE.

For a lot of players, 10 frames is too fast to react, but that the top of the metagame, it can be shielded on reaction.

It's tippered kill percent is impressive, yes, but the second hit of a tippered nair is very good too, and is a lot safer.


As for faster, up tilt is frame 7, and kills at 104 (114 for any hitbox). Downsmash is frame 6 and kills at 98. Nair comes out at frame 6 too, dunno the actual kill percent, but it's quite low (not as low as tippered f-smash).

OOS (which is pretty much the only time you should use Marth's kill moves) , pretty much the only kill move marth has which is slower then f-smash is upsmash. Oh, and charged shieldbreaker.





Overall, nair>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fsmash.

Honestly, just about any of marth's kill moves >f-smash, it's just not good except in combos or when you have a guarenteed 10 net frame advantage on your opponent.


F-smash sux.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

Please don't accuse me of being bias for this because I'm not. I think Ike's Eruption is the best KO move. Extremely powerful, super armor, good range, and it's a spike.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

I never said they didn't. I only corrected the lag part.

And PX is right.

But Fox's Smash could be at the top right ?

Thanks for the correction.

You're too funny !

 

[:mad:]

Please don't accuse me of being bias for this because I'm not. I think Ike's Eruption is the best KO move. Extremely powerful, super armor, good range, and it's a spike.

You're biased.

It's RIDICULOUSLY slow if fully charged. The slowest move in the game iirc, only when fully charged. You won't hit anyone because they'll see it before it becomes strong enough. Bad, terrible, awful move.

@SmashBrosForce - Absolutely. It's a great kill move, probably one of Fox's best.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

No, I am not biased. >_>

Speed is the only thing Eruption lacks. It's great in all other areas. Just because it's slow doesn't make it a terrible move. I've seen good Ike players use it well before.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Please don't accuse me of being bias for this because I'm not. I think Ike's Eruption is the best KO move. Extremely powerful, super armor, good range, and it's a spike.

You're not really biased, just really really dense.

Rally bad range, super slow, and really ****ing easy to see. Yeah no. There are ko moves with super armor frames with superior range and speed, so um, get *****.

lol, no, it's range is horrid and super ****ing easy to see coming, Snake's u tilt hits 300 times more often than it ever will. Also, btw, Ike is garbage.

 

[:mad:]

No, I am not biased. >_>

Speed is the only thing Eruption lacks. It's great in all other areas. Just because it's slow doesn't make it a terrible move. I've seen good Ike players use it well before.

No, you're pretty **** biased.

It's unusable because it's so slow, making it a bad kill move, not reliable, and not worthy of being the best.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ike's Eruption is Really Strong but is Laggy and Slow.

Everyone can see you performing the Eruption and prepare the Shield or Dodge, very predictable.

Straked Explained well what Ike's Eruption is.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It's unusable because it's so slow, making it a bad kill move, not reliable, and not worthy of ever being used, ever. EVER

Fixed.


Get out of lala land silly person.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Please don't accuse me of being bias for this because I'm not. I think Ike's Eruption is the best KO move. Extremely powerful, super armor, good range, and it's a spike.

From the Ike frame data thread....

~Uncharged~
Hit: 30-32
End: 79
IASA: 79

FRAME 30

No.

No, I am not biased. >_>

Speed is the only thing Eruption lacks. It's great in all other areas. Just because it's slow doesn't make it a terrible move. I've seen good Ike players use it well before.

Lol

Good players can incorporate it into their game because they're good at predicting their opponents, not because the move is inherently good.

For a move to be a great ko move it has to be spammable, not one of the most situational moves in the game.

 

[:mad:]

Ike's Eruption is Really Strong but is Laggy and Slow.

Everyone can see you performing the Eruption and prepare the Shield or Dodge, very predictable.

Straked Explained well what Ike's Eruption is.

This, qft.

While you're sitting there charging eruption, I'm charging FLUDD, using it, pushing you off the stage, gimping you, and JV 4-stocking your Ike.

Sorry if I came off as rude. Eruption would be great if it wasn't so easy to see coming.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

EmblemPrincess, sorry, but you ARE biased. Actually, it really wouldn't make much sense to call you biased since you have NO clue what you're talking about.

Ike's eruption is a horrible KO move.

 

[momochuu]

I think people are just missing the point of the thread. It's not "What KO move kills the earliest?" or "What is the best KO move for your main?", it's the best KO move in general. Good KO moves have to have a few qualities like speed, range, priority, etc. People naming stuff like Marth's FSmash, Zelda's smash attacks, and...Ike's Eruption really need to understand how unsafe every one of those moves are. Moves like Snake UpTilt have all of those positive qualities.

Stop saying dumb moves.

 

[EmblemPrincess]

Ugh, whatever. I know I'm not biased, so why should I even bother arguing with anyone? I'm allowed to have my opinions, so let me think what I want to think.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Ugh, whatever. I know I'm not biased, so why should I even bother arguing with anyone? I'm allowed to have my opinions, so let me think what I want to think.

How the **** can you possibly say a terrible move your main has is better than Snake's u tilt and expect us not to call you biased. It's ********, and your stupid for thinking we wouldn't. You cant even make a good argument for it. Snake's u tilt has more range, speed, and kills over 9,000 times more reliably.

So please give in and call me Big Daddy.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Ugh, whatever. I know I'm not biased, so why should I even bother arguing with anyone? I'm allowed to have my opinions, so let me think what I want to think.

No, miss. You just don't have a clue of what you were talking about.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

This, qft.

While you're sitting there charging eruption, I'm charging FLUDD, using it, pushing you off the stage, gimping you, and JV 4-stocking your Ike.

Sorry if I came off as rude. Eruption would be great if it wasn't so easy to see coming.

That's it man !

When I saw someone using Eruption I punish with Chain Choke and in the Final Choke -> Follow Ups.

I play with Ike but, Unfortunately, Eruption sucks =/

 

[:mad:]

Ugh, whatever. I know I'm not biased, so why should I even bother arguing with anyone? I'm allowed to have my opinions, so let me think what I want to think.

You're ignoring all the qualities that make a move good and pick an attack that your favorite character knows. That'd be considered bias.

We're not trying to change your opinion, you're entitled to it. We're just trying to point you in the right direction, and tell you WHY what you said doesn't work.

Think it, girl.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ugh, whatever. I know I'm not biased, so why should I even bother arguing with anyone? I'm allowed to have my opinions, so let me think what I want to think.

I don't think that you're necessarily biased. Honestly, it's just that I don't think you understand the metagame well enough to realize why eruption is a bad KO move. Talk to the other Ike players, they'll help you in showing what Ike's **** options are.

Spoiler

Hint, they being with "j" and end with "b"

Also, they'll help you learn how to predict opponents, so when the situation comes up, you will be able to use eruption and KO with it.



Edit:

You're ignoring all the qualities that make a move good and pick an attack that your favorite character knows. That'd be considered bias.

We're not trying to change your opinion, you're entitled to it. We're just trying to point you in the right direction, and tell you WHY what you said doesn't work.

Think it, girl.

That's it man !

When I saw someone using Eruption I punish with Chain Choke and in the Final Choke -> Follow Ups.

I play with Ike but, Unfortunately, Eruption sucks =/

No, miss. You just don't have a clue of what you were talking about.

How the **** can you possibly say a terrible move your main has is better than Snake's u tilt and expect us not to call you biased. It's ********, and your stupid for thinking we wouldn't. You cant even make a good argument for it. Snake's u tilt has more range, speed, and kills over 9,000 times more reliably.

So please give in and call me Big Daddy.

Guys, be nice, I've seen her post before, she doesn't really understand the metagame yet, but with a little time and assistence, she'll understand, ok?

 

[PhantomX]

Here's why I believe the best spot is debatable between three moves:

Snake's Uptilt - ridiculously disjointed, very solid kill power, usable multiple times and at any time. It's major disadvantage is lack of versatility, and it is punishable on shield (depending on character). 6 frames for the hitbox to come out.

MK's Shuttle Loop - not very much power when grounded, but it is an added option and comes with an invincibility frame. Extremely versatile b/c it can be done in the air as well, and ends in a glide that allows you to make it back to stage... reversing even seems to give more knockback to it when airborne. Has some sick range. Punishable if dodged (and are quick).

Wario's Waft - even more versatile than MK's shuttle loop, as you are fully in control after the move has been used, and it isn't punishable except by MAYBE a choice few moves... kills sooner thn Snake's uptilt and MK's shuttle loop (when DId), has huge and disjointed hitboxes, comes out in 5 frames. It's downfall is of course, it can only be used at maximum efficiency 8 times per game (though the one before one minute is actually fairly solid... I've killed an MK offstage with it (<3 LIght).

 

[Falconv1.0]

Guys, be nice, I've seen her post before, she doesn't really understand the metagame yet, but with a little time and assistence, she'll understand, ok?

Me and Straked? Nice?

lolwat?


And yeah, I'm torn between u tilt and the waft, that **** gets me too often.

 

[:mad:]

Going by PX's list, Wario's Waft would be the best kill move in terms of speed, safety, range, and kill power. Snake's Utilt being right behind, and Shuttle Loop just after that.

In my humble opinion.

@adumbrodeous - Yeah, I apoligized for it. Felt like it was only right. I'm not as mean as Falcon.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Snake's uptilt is not safe on block and or whiff.

Fox's upsmash is better. It's 4 frames slower, but it kills earlier and you can do it out of dash/run.

Example: If MK dsmashes Snake's shield, the best he can do is Ftilt or dash attack. He gets pushed too far out to Uptilt. If MK dsmashes Fox's shield, Fox takes that stock with a dashing upsmash. Not to mention, Fox can combo into the Upsmash with Dair. Fox's Upsmash is also easier to sweetspot.

 

[:mad:]

I was thinking the same thing, though if you shield the Usmash, you WILL be punished.

Unless you're fighting a Luigi.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ugh, whatever. I know I'm not biased, so why should I even bother arguing with anyone? I'm allowed to have my opinions, so let me think what I want to think.

We are not disagreeing about you. We're just wanting to help you.

Just imagine:

Me (Ganondorf) vs You (Ike) we both with high percents. You try to use Eruption, I perform a ground Dodge, Chain Choke you, Final Choke -> Follow Ups, you get out of Stage and I gimp you.


Straked is just trying to Explain you about the consequences of Ike's Eruption.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Snake's uptilt is not safe on block and or whiff.

Fox's upsmash is better. It's 4 frames slower, but it kills earlier and you can do it out of dash/run.

Example: If MK dsmashes Snake's shield, the best he can do is Ftilt or dash attack. He gets pushed too far out to Uptilt. If MK dsmashes Fox's shield, Fox takes that stock with a dashing upsmash. Not to mention, Fox can combo into the Upsmash with Dair. Fox's Upsmash is also easier to sweetspot.

Nah actually I think Eruption is prolly better. But dun worry, I'm not biased.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Me and Straked? Nice?

lolwat?


And yeah, I'm torn between u tilt and the waft, that **** gets me too often.

Yea, I know, but still, I prefer if people are nice to the newbies. A lot of the data that we know, they don't.

I remember like my second post on smashboards was about how to use Sheik's up-throw (I hadn't been able to chaingrab yet).

So, basically, makes me feel better to say it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

There's a difference between stating an ok kill move is the best and stating that eruption, a terrible move that any small child could deduce is horrible is the best. There's a limit to which I'll be ok with noob stuff. It's not just ignorance, it's stupidity.

 

[Cirno]

Here's why I believe the best spot is debatable between three moves:

Snake's Uptilt - ridiculously disjointed, very solid kill power, usable multiple times and at any time. It's major disadvantage is lack of versatility, and it is punishable on shield (depending on character). 6 frames for the hitbox to come out.

MK's Shuttle Loop - not very much power when grounded, but it is an added option and comes with an invincibility frame. Extremely versatile b/c it can be done in the air as well, and ends in a glide that allows you to make it back to stage... reversing even seems to give more knockback to it when airborne. Has some sick range. Punishable if dodged (and are quick).

Wario's Waft - even more versatile than MK's shuttle loop, as you are fully in control after the move has been used, and it isn't punishable except by MAYBE a choice few moves... kills sooner thn Snake's uptilt and MK's shuttle loop (when DId), has huge and disjointed hitboxes, comes out in 5 frames. It's downfall is of course, it can only be used at maximum efficiency 8 times per game (though the one before one minute is actually fairly solid... I've killed an MK offstage with it (<3 LIght).

This seems pretty accurate to me. So many people keep saying MK down smash. It's only really good OOS or for spacing since on shield gives you a free grab.

If Snake is using the utilt's range( why be so close ?) correctly he shouldn't get punished unless it's a powershield since it has such nice cool down frames and pushes regular shields. I agree on the versatility part.

MK's shuttle loop on ground should only be used as an OOS option especially in times when invincibility frames are necessary( like during G&W bair assaults). The in air part is where you really get your kills and like Snake's utilt, shouldn't really be punished when done correctly either due to glide attack lag canceling.(Every move can be punished ofcourse as I'm sure you know since Wario's dair beats the glide part, but he's really really safe.) Plank ability, reversable for recovering while attacking, disjointed, and non-situational. One of the very very few moves that can kill even when diminished to it's lowest point ( ofcourse you have to be offstage and near the blast zones at it's lowest points, but it's MK, he can do it.)
The thing I think that makes the shuttle loop beat out the other two is that it can be comboed into and has baits. Uair to shuttle loop is a win win situation off stage everytime.
Either they dodge the uair into a reverse shuttle loop or the get hit for further pursuit, or if you're close enough a SL through combo.


You said everything there is to be said about the waft. Don't think I could tell you anything new about it anyway.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Noobs. M2K died to fully charged Eruption in tournament, two weeks ago.

Therefore, EmblemPrincess wins.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There's a difference between stating an ok kill move is the best and stating that eruption, a terrible move that any small child could deduce is horrible is the best. There's a limit to which I'll be ok with noob stuff. It's not just ignorance, it's stupidity.

If she's playing low quality players then they're probably hitting her during super armor and suffering for it.

It might be expirience, not stupidity, I've seen many times how people use expirience to justify a match-up advantage that's not technically there.

This seems pretty accurate to me. So many people keep saying MK down smash. It's only really good OOS or for spacing since on shield gives you a free grab.

The frame advantage is only like 17 on front, only a few characters can actually take advantage.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Noobs. M2K died to fully charged Eruption in tournament, two weeks ago.

Therefore, EmblemPrincess wins.

Beautiful.

 

[Mecakoto]

Olimar's Up-Smash and his Down-Smash.

His Up-Smash is fast activating and with cool down, it has deceptively good range, and it has wonderful power with the Purple, Blue, and Red Pikmin. If it misses or hits a shield, you can sometimes fire another one off before they can really do anything. It's only fault is that it is dependent on Pikmin color but if you aren't managing your colors you aren't playing Oli correctly.

The Down-Smash has insane power if used Up-Close. If not, then it can be a good mix-up for the Up-Smash because there isn't a really noticeable difference for each one's start-up. DIing poorly will lead to early kills off the side if you're lucky. It is Pikmin-dependent, but I already addressed that. One issue with it is that it has quite a bit more cool-down then the Up-Smash.

So, I say those 2 in conjunction.

Because the lack of Olimar in this thread is disturbing.

 

[PhantomX]

Olimar's Upsmash with purple is stupid, lol.

But it doesn't have very much range compared to these other killers, and is also limited in versatility b/c it has to be used on the ground. It's very much a top tier kill move though.

 

[:mad:]

White pikmin Usmash is laughable, though.

 

[gallax]

pikachu's thunder is a good kill move. it can kill almost everyone at aroun 65% at the cloud and kills quite when it connects with pika(and the enemy gets hit by the pika+thunder explosion)

 

[PhantomX]

It's not really good, it's more of a safe kill move.

 

[Mecakoto]

pikachu's thunder is a good kill move. it can kill almost everyone at aroun 65% at the cloud and kills quite when it connects with pika(and the enemy gets hit by the pika+thunder explosion)

It doesn't help that you hear Pika yell "PIKAAAA" when he uses it. You won't get hit by it unless you make a rather decently-sized mistake. Powerful? Ya. Going to happen often at a high level? Not a chance.

White pikmin Usmash is laughable, though.

That is why you manage your Pikmin and keep track of them. Up-Smashing with a White Pikmin is only good for following up with another attack at low damage. Other then that, the Olimar player should never use it. If they do, they are not a good Olimar player.