Bear and Fish 11: Over. Everyone loses, Town loses a little less

[#HBC | Nabe]

Swiss: Do you think that the math is there for an X1scum hammer to be a viable strategy for him? I was hoping this might be a clear if he doesn't hammer, but I don't think the math would be in his favour for him to win after the hammer. Please tell me what you think about J's recent post and his 797; I'm biased and ready to call him scum, but I know you'll be more neutral.


FF: The posts you reference where I ask Kuz about his calling me indy are me asking about a common scumtell where mafias harp on indies because they can't effectively scumhunt. My personal experience with this is Zen in FFVI, but it happens elsewhere as well.

As for Kuz making a case, I made a post showing why it was tripe, and everyone readily agreed because it was. Kuz was scrambling in self-preservation to avoid being lynched; was it stupid on all fronts, yes, but you're grabbing up evidence that isn't.

One valid point you do have is that my claim at the beginning of the Day was dumb; I agree, it was a mistake.

Please do go ahead and address my previous counter-argument to you. There were a number of important points in there. In general, it was a Scum 101 post as I said. This one has been as well.


J: What points from FF's case on me caused you to change your mind? Please be specific.


X1: Since J didn't, go ahead and post that, sure.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Gah I have no clue what to do.

Unvote

I'm not ready to lay my vote down....

I don't wanna ****ing re-read this game again.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Nabe, I in all reality do not get what you are asking me in your weird question.

The question is worded weird where you are trying to ask me to guess your opinion and tell you why you do not see me as indie. What exactly do you benefit for trying to get me to answer for you? (i'm really confused by this)

I need to re-read toDay and see what I can figure out.....Nabe i'll get back to you and your above post.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I don't particularly want an answer from you at the moment. X1 can answer, and should.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Swissy, what are you thinking? There's one townie in between all of this cluster**** of Nabe/FF/X1-12 and I am trying to figure it out.

I'm thinking atm before looking over things again

Nabe - Indie
FF - Town
X1-12 - Mafia

Your opinion is the most important to me at the moment.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

I don't particularly want an answer from you at the moment. X1 can answer, and should.

But I tried to give you an answer but you never explained why this question is even of any relevance. I'm trying to figure it out.

Can you explain it?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Suffice it to say though, I'm not asking you for my opinion. I've given my opinion and I'm asking for the reasoning behind that opinion. That reasoning is something you should be able to tell me.

But let X1 do it.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Nabe, it may be because it's late but that explanation confused me even more than the original question.

WHAT exactly do you gain from asking that?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

If the person I'm querying can tell me why I think what I do, then that says something about them, don't you think?

Tell me which of FF's points you agreed with, thanks.

 

[#HBC | J]

so wait a second it holds what exactly? Like this just making sense to me. Basically you are trying to say to the person you are asking, "Read my mind, reiterate what I say, get a cookie?" And also it's your opinion on why I'm not indie which is perplexing to ask in itself.

Nabe I will answer you when I can and want to. You are in no position at all to tell people what to do.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I want an answer about why you think I'm indy because I'm trying to determine if you're scum. Is that not obvious? You haven't said currently why you think I'm indy; you've said that you thought about it a lot, which tells me nothing. Instead, tell me something by answering my question, which shouldn't be an inconvenience at all if you've actually put thought into why you agree with FF.

It is obvious why I don't think you're indy; this is a plain fact that I know to be true. Since that's the case, that's why I know other players can readily answer it for me. If you don't agree that it's obvious, then that should make you more curious to hear what X1's going to say, should it not?

Do me a favour and don't speculate, unless you'd like to answer in place of X1. Thanks.

 

[Swiss]

V/LA

Nabe, why did you repeatedly state the indie might have a pro town winCon?

Also, explain why the indie couldn't also have a tracking ability.

 

[X1-12]

Nabe I suspect you are talking about J being seen visiting glg but him not flipping immune, however I don't believe he would flip immune if the NK had priority

 

[SummonerAU]

just sayin'

Deadline is set for 26th of Jan, 11:59pm AEST It's currently the 23rd of Jan, 12:24am.

Vote Count:
No one is voting

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Nabe:

Indie: FrozenFlame
Mafia: X1-12/Larxene

Swiss

Indie: Nabe
Mafia: X1-12

FrozenFlame:

Indie: Nabe
Mafia: X1-12

X1-12

Indie: Larxene
Mafia: Frozenflame

Larxene

Indie: Nabe/Frozenflame
Mafia: X1-12

As a Town:

Swiss is seen a most town.
Indie picks lie within FF/Nabe
Mafia picks X1-12 has the most. Followed by FF/Larxene.

NKs and lynch orders:

Cello_Marl lynched D1, Mafia Poisoner
Dourin-x- Nightkilled N1, VT
Grump Modkilled D2, VT
Ryunnosuke Nightkilled N2, Poison Doc
th3kuzinator lynched D3, Immune VT
Giraffelasergun Nightkilled N3, VT

Wagons:

Cello_Marl wagon: X1-12, TigerWoods, Swiss, Dourin-x-, Larxene, Nabe
Grump wagon: None since modkill
th3kuzinator wagon: X1-12, Nabe, GLG, Swiss

Reminder of claims

Nabe claimed Polar Bear, Tracker
Larxene claimed Sun Bear, Voyeur
X1-12 claimed Black Bear, JOAT
Swiss claimed VT
FF claimed VT

Night Actions known:

X1-12's:
RB'd Kuzi N1 = result nothing
Fish Count N2 = results 1 fish
Immunize Checker J: J is immune

@X1-12: What did you pm the mod as asking for my immune? And your N2 + N1 action do not coincide with your D3 play AT ALL. It just doesn't make sense

Nabe:

GLG N1: Result Nothing
Swiss N2: Result Nothing
Larxene N3: Resulted in seeing visiting GLG

Larxene

Swiss N1: Result Nothing
Nabe N2: Result Nothing
GLG N3: Result in seeing a NK

FF/Swiss:

Nothing at all.
Swiss has been proven doing nothing.
FF has not.

Correct me if I'm wrong here on whom everyone wants and these are their thoughts and claims and other things.

From my perspective here are the possiblities:

Swiss cannot be neither mafia nor indie if Nabe is not lieing about his tracking claim.
FF cannot be mafia because his slot was empty during the night and there was still a NK. However this is really weak cuz Tiger could still have sent in a NK but I don't think this is the case. FF could still be indie and actually has only one person immunized.
Nabe can be Indie but I have a hard time seeing him as being mafia.
X1-12 is my personal pick for being mafia. However something wants me to say he is the indie. Mostly it's because of his JOAT claim. His D3 play says otherwise.

hmm.....

If Nabe flips Town, FF is the indie
If Nabe flips Indie, FF is town.
If Nabe flips Mafia, FF is still the most likely indie candidate and I'll believe X1-12 more
If FF flips Town, Nabe is the indie.
If FF flips Indie, Nabe is town.
If FF flips Mafia, Nabe is still probably the indie and again X1-12 will be more trustable
If X1-12 flips Town, Nabe/FF hold the final indie and mafia
If X1-12 flips Mafia, Nabe/FF hold the indie
If X1-12 flips Indie, Nabe is my pick for mafia

So if Nabe is telling the truth, Swiss is cleared of being both indie and mafia.
Larxene is always flipping town so that puts her with Swissy.

Larxene/Swiss are town and that makes it we have to take one of the upper possibilities. I can't see any other method of how this game should play out and we need to pick a course of action. We have 4 days.

X1-12, who out of yourself/Nabe/FF do you expect the most to flip indie?
Nabe, you believe FF is the most likely indie still correct? Also was X1's response what you wanted?
FF, same as Nabe except the last question.
Swiss, who do you think is our best bet at lynching to get rid of the indie? X1/FF/Nabe? You've seemed to look like you are going to lynch Nabe is this still true?

Larxene is keeping your vote to herself for now because she is trying to think whom is the indie.

For her it's between FF/Nabe and personally she is leaning Nabe. But not confident enough to place it down yet. I just do not know what to do. I will be looking at D4 again but this is what I've seen so far.

 

[X1-12]

@X1-12: What did you pm the mod as asking for my immune? And your N2 + N1 action do not coincide with your D3 play AT ALL. It just doesn't make sense

If I posted exactly what it was then its essentially quoting mod communication

What do you mean? are you talking about my push on kuz? He wasn't clear, he was just not-mafia.

X1-12, who out of yourself/Nabe/FF do you expect the most to flip indie?

If it was out of those three then FF, since I view him as the most anti-town. The idea that Nabe guessed and got lucky on his Night Action results seems highly unlikely. To be honest I'm amazed that FF pushed the idea that Nabe was IndyTracker as opposed to Nabe being a Maf Stalker with Vanilla on Swiss (Much more feasible imo)

@FF: Have you ever seen an indy with two Night actions per Night in a small game?

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

If I posted exactly what it was then its essentially quoting mod communication

What do you mean? are you talking about my push on kuz? He wasn't clear, he was just not-mafia.

X1 the entire Day you were calling kuzi scum/mafia/indie and swearing left right and down that he was. If you did RB him you know for a fact that he was not mafia.

Basically I want an entire explaination of your D3 play and your entire push on th3kuzi and why it was a push on him being indie and not mafia. Kuzi was in no way in heck an indie suspect and an indie would NEVER make such a dumb*** move as the fake hammer that draws immediate attention to him. If you had this info that th3kuzi was not mafia then I see no way in hell you would have pushed his lynch that far into oblivion.

Explain EVERYTHING.

We are not ending this day till I get an answer that is satisfactory cuz that answer surely isn't.

Also you know what I mean -_-"

What did you tell the mod as your immune checker? Like I put in for my Girraffelasergun investigation GLG.

 

[Swiss]

Sorry guys still V/LA (half 4 in the morning ftw) - reading 2mo when I get home.

X1 is scum. I have said this.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Nabe I suspect you are talking about J being seen visiting glg but him not flipping immune, however I don't believe he would flip immune if the NK had priority

So you believe that two players are currently immune: the indy and one other. Is that correct?

Nabe, why did you repeatedly state the indie might have a pro town winCon?

Also, explain why the indie couldn't also have a tracking ability.

Because I thought they did. The description in the first post gave me that vibe, as it spoke about protecting against poison and didn't say anything regarding the wincon. A piper-like role didn't occur to me because I've never seen it in practice.

The indy probably could have a tracking ability. Do they? Nah, 'cause I'm not indy.

More neutrally, I don't think that's balanced. Being able to claim tracker is a huge boon, and since people don't know when they've been immunized, it would be hard to recognize the danger when there's also no assurance in the beginning that the role is anti-town.

FF could still be indie and actually has only one person immunized.

Why do you say this?
And please answer my question about what parts of FF's case you agree with.

 

[X1-12]

X1 the entire Day you were calling kuzi scum/mafia/indie and swearing left right and down that he was. If you did RB him you know for a fact that he was not mafia.

Basically I want an entire explaination of your D3 play and your entire push on th3kuzi and why it was a push on him being indie and not mafia. Kuzi was in no way in heck an indie suspect and an indie would NEVER make such a dumb*** move as the fake hammer that draws immediate attention to him. If you had this info that th3kuzi was not mafia then I see no way in hell you would have pushed his lynch that far into oblivion.

Explain EVERYTHING.

We are not ending this day till I get an answer that is satisfactory cuz that answer surely isn't.

Also you know what I mean -_-"

What did you tell the mod as your immune checker? Like I put in for my Girraffelasergun investigation GLG.

I've stated several times already, I don't specifically Indyhunt or Mafiahunt, just scumhunt. I think your whole point about the fake hammer is incredibly weak, even if it does draw attention to him it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to think he'd look town. Why did I push his lynch so far? Its cause I had a strong scumread on him. (yes scum = anti-town)

I always send in the exact Name of the playerslot for Night Actions

So you believe that two players are currently immune: the indy and one other. Is that correct?

Actually you just made me think. Even if J is indy we should Lynch FF because JIndy wouldn't win overNight. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna vote FF because of that. I refuse to believe Nabe is scum. Indytracker in a 11 man game is kinda ridiculous, plus throughout the whole game I've not had a scumread on Nabe

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

WHOA WHOA WHOA

X1, how the hell am I an indie suspect for you? Explain this again then I'll get to your post.

 

[X1-12]

J, I'll answer that when I re-read and make notes.



Nabe is not the indy, I don't believe there's an Immuniser+Tracker combo in an 11 man game. I do not believe him to be mafia either because it completely makes sense for there to be a tracker in this game and Nabe would not risk getting CC'ed

Swiss is not the indy or maf because of Nabe

Its between J/FF

If J is the indy, then a max of two people are immune, and lynching the mafia will not lose the game for town. Since the two scum are J/FF and its safe to lynch FF first, my vote goes on him


Vote: FrozenFlame

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

You have info stating that I am not the indie. What would a re-read help you when you just have to remember your night actions.

And no I am keeping the votes even and we will let Swiss decide.

Vote: Nabe

He's my indie pick.

 

[X1-12]

My Night Action would only prove you to be not-indy if your action takes priority over the maf kill

 

[#HBC | J]

You have mod-confirmed info that I am immunized do you not?

Answer is yes.

 

[X1-12]

Unvote
Vote: Nabe

 

[#HBC | J]

WTH, I mean seriously wtf is this!

 

[X1-12]

@Mod: FF votes Nabe in #864 you missed it in the most recent votecount.

Hammer.

@Mafia: I'm BP btw

@Town: If Nabe flips town. I am Indy. Whatever happens toNight, lynching me toMorrow will result in an auto-loss for town as maf can NK ftw. If Nabe flips maf then ggs and all

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Gah you were so full of **** and it was blatantly obvious! Why couldn't I have gotten it in time =/

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

So wait you are telling us to give you the win?!

@Mafia: Do not NK! Please for the love of god, it goes against both Town's and Mafia's Wincon to allow an indie to win.

NO NK results in this

2 town 1 indie 1 mafia

dammit town still loses if Nabe is not mafia!

So either we can give it to the mafia or the indie?! What is this crap?!

 

[X1-12]

I honestly fail to see how anyone could have thought me attacking Cello was a bus.

@Town: If Nabe flips town. I am Indy. Whatever happens toNight, lynching me toMorrow will result in an auto-loss for town as maf can NK ftw. If Nabe flips maf then ggs and all

To clarify, if you lynch the mafia, its likely you will lose to me, but not necessarily so based on who I have successfully immunised or not. I will reveal all my targets toMorrow because I don't want maf to know who to shoot toNight.

sleep now

Night all.

 

[X1-12]

if its 2v1v1 toMorrow then Town can take the very slim to win chance by lynching the maf, or they can take the 100% lose option by lynching me.

if its 1v1v1 toMorrow then Town has lost, they just pick which of the two anti-town factions they want to win.

 

[X1-12]

oh btw Nabe will flip immunised, just some proof I'm indy and not maf trying some gambit

 

[X1-12]

now i just gotta hope nabe is town

 

[Swiss]

Well this was a great time for me to go V/LA.

Thought it was X-scum. Not indie. Mmm.

Scum (FF?) although it should be obvious, shoot X1. Otherwise you lose anyway.

 

[Swiss]

@ Mod does J's vote in #903 count when he voted under false mod information (i.e. not at a L-)

Whatever. I'll assume X1 isn't dumb enough to gambit like this and we got endgamed etc. This game was terrible and I couldn't care less that it's over. No offence ot any players/mod.

Scum shoot X1. You might kill him, stopping his mark. Plus hopefully you aren't just a goon. Then we get a last day which you might win.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

This was an obnoxious post and was never needed.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Sorry guys~

I lied and I am the mafia.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Yepyep. BP immunizer sounds like BS anyway, mafia, so take your shot. Much more likely that they start off immune like a piper (X1 even suggested it lol). And obv they aren't immune and BP.

Make J answer my questions toMorrow, ffs. Not sure whether a town flip from FF or J would make me vomit more, but don't let him avoid it.

 

[~The Savage Nymph~]

Actually I don't deserve the win, I played horrendously.

Congratz X1-12