BBR Matchup Chart for Sheik

-Mars-

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#41
It's easy to list rando mthings fox can do in a match up that falco can't but instead I'll just point out these facts.

1. fox has 40-60% damage true combos on us too... utilt->utilt->utilt->usmash

2. falco does die to ftilt though, gotta learn to stall your ftilts to get the maximum number of tilts in while still comboing. Not very difficult.

yeah the match ups are different, but if ftilt is the only reason sheik beats fox... then she should be winning versus falco just as often. there are tons of ways for fox to deal damage and apply pressure without much fear of ftilit locks, and teh window in which you can ftilt lock doesn't consume the whole game anyway. against good foxes (or maybe more acurately) ones who know the match up, ftilt may net you one stock.
1. Fox needs to get close to us in order to hit us with utilt. Unlike Falco if he messes up it costs him a stock. Utilt also has very limited range. If ftilt is easy to avoid for Fox than utilt is exponentially easier for Sheik to avoid. I'm also fairly sure that utilt chains is escapable.

2. Falco doesn't die from a single ftilt lock. You hold up and DI the usmash correctly and he is just too heavy.

How does Fox deal damage and apply pressure without having to fear ftilt? He can't damage us from long range due to crouch. because of that he has to get close to do any damage at all and ftilt will flat out beat or outrange the majority of his moveset.

Also the window for ftilt on Fox is pretty large when you consider the fact that Fox is extremely light. So half of his stock is pretty much in the window.

That is even more evident when you simply choose not to hit him with anything else once he's in the window.
 

phi1ny3

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#43
Hey just wondering, what exactly is the DI for Falco/Wolf to avoid mistimed usmash out of ftilt lock?

His speed and range on the ground is very important because his hops are too floaty and committing. But his sideb DOES work upon landing. LOL that's awesome. Fast-fall sideb should work great on people aiming to block and punish.
Yep, it's a terrific mixup against chars like snake and D3, where you can't kill them easily b/c your other kill moves besides uair are too slow.
 

Judo777

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#44
I think it might be possible to kill falco with one tilt lock . It might not tho with proper DI its hard to say cause i get it from time to time. However it is not easy at all. You have to be almost frame perfect with the spacing on ur ftilts to allow him to drop down into the lock further, plus if order to kill falco with one lock you are going to have to turn around the lock AT least 7 or 8 times. Combine that with having to time ur ftilt perfectly in order for him to not get hit too high (which he might always get too high eventually anyway because i can't always assume everyone DIes the usmash perfectly) and that you have to guess when ur gonna turn around it becomes pretty tricky. Fox typically requires like no more than maybe 4 turnarounds and you don't have to time them cause he dies much earlier and doesn't escape as well.
 

BRoomer
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#45
ftilt lock doesn't work till 30% on fox. (Or anyone) fresh ftilt will have too much knock-back after after 60 or 70?

fox's utilt lock does work below 30, think it starts at 10?

fox can poke with spaced bair no risk.

fox can poke with fair very little risk.

rising nair oos is generally safe when presured in sheild.

lagless lazer and standing lazer are risk free. (and can also be used to punish landing, sheild drops dashes and small whiffs like our projectile)

reverse utilt is frame three so it beats all of our options speed wize bar jab. its range is actually really good too, combos from dair at lower percents.

dash in sheild is a strong low risk mix up worst case I grab and can't lead to a death. best case I ftilt or jab and he punishes with grab->throw->lazers follow up

shine stalls are IMO one of the best mixups in the game. you can safely bait things like our utilt ftilt and even aerials and dodges and then on reaction punish or reset with a jump or illusion (or another shine) if you don't like the reaction, with no risk of being punished by ftilt locks.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we don't win but fox has TONS of way to apply pressure safely. and if you lose a stock or deal too much damage without ftilt decayed, you actually have to fight fox and it is not a +3 match up after that anymore than falco is.


Falco has tools to presure like his jab his lazer, ftilt, but because fox doesn't have the same tools doesn't mean he doesn't have any.
 

-Mars-

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#46
We'll agree to disagree.

Although this is coming from the same guy who doesn't think Ice Climbers is a bad MU so I dunno.

I question how often you play this game outside of friendlies.
 

Juushichi

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#47
One thing I will say though is that Fox's speed is a huge factor in this matchup. Kind of like us verses a lot of characters, Fox can get in and out of a character's range when necessary. He can't camp with lazers like Falco, but I mean... you can't really ignore when a Fox is raising your % with them.

Sheik can control her space pretty well, and I don't really know about Fox's dash-to-shield or a lot of his shield options... but I don't think either of these characters have trouble getting in and causing damage to the other. Sheik will gain a lot more of a reward for it, but Fox is no slouch either... especially with our chara's fall speed and weight.

Just my 0.02.
 

Judo777

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#48
ftilt lock doesn't work till 30% on fox. (Or anyone) fresh ftilt will have too much knock-back after after 60 or 70?

fox's utilt lock does work below 30, think it starts at 10?

fox can poke with spaced bair no risk.

fox can poke with fair very little risk.

rising nair oos is generally safe when presured in sheild.

lagless lazer and standing lazer are risk free. (and can also be used to punish landing, sheild drops dashes and small whiffs like our projectile)

reverse utilt is frame three so it beats all of our options speed wize bar jab. its range is actually really good too, combos from dair at lower percents.

dash in sheild is a strong low risk mix up worst case I grab and can't lead to a death. best case I ftilt or jab and he punishes with grab->throw->lazers follow up

shine stalls are IMO one of the best mixups in the game. you can safely bait things like our utilt ftilt and even aerials and dodges and then on reaction punish or reset with a jump or illusion (or another shine) if you don't like the reaction, with no risk of being punished by ftilt locks.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we don't win but fox has TONS of way to apply pressure safely. and if you lose a stock or deal too much damage without ftilt decayed, you actually have to fight fox and it is not a +3 match up after that anymore than falco is.


Falco has tools to presure like his jab his lazer, ftilt, but because fox doesn't have the same tools doesn't mean he doesn't have any.
the lock typically works from percents around 24% and up to like 70 or something.
 

BRoomer
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#49
How does Fox deal damage and apply pressure without having to fear ftilt? He can't damage us from long range due to crouch. because of that he has to get close to do any damage at all and ftilt will flat out beat or outrange the majority of his moveset.
my post was in response to that statement. It just isn't true.

I do think the match up is in sheiks advantage but no where near as much as people seem to think. Similarly, I think falco is in sheik's advantage just as much if not more than fox.

I think ICs and pika are about as disadvantaged for us as I feel fox and falco are in our favor.

pika doesn't kill with his chain grab either and thats -3.... but whatever. but since our lock only does 90+ from 24% on falco so its even? :/
The game isn't all about infinites and chains or IC actually would be the best in the game.


-Mars- said:
Although this is coming from the same guy who doesn't think Ice Climbers is a bad MU so I dunno.
Sorry if that came off an a personal attack or something, but if you are going to try and discredit my posts because of my opinions on unrelated topics I'd honestly rather you not give me any at all and just not respond to my posts.
:(
 

-Mars-

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#50
Sorry <3 that did seem jerkish after reading it again.

What I meant is that you seem to have very different opinions on MUs that have been fairly well documented and analyzed.

Like Sheik-Falco has been pretty much agreed upon as even since the beginning of time.
 

Judo777

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#51
my post was in response to that statement. It just isn't true.

I do think the match up is in sheiks advantage but no where near as much as people seem to think. Similarly, I think falco is in sheik's advantage just as much if not more than fox.

I think ICs and pika are about as disadvantaged for us as I feel fox and falco are in our favor.

pika doesn't kill with his chain grab either and thats -3.... but whatever. but since our lock only does 90+ from 24% on falco so its even? :/
The game isn't all about infinites and chains or IC actually would be the best in the game.



Sorry if that came off an a personal attack or something, but if you are going to try and discredit my posts because of my opinions on unrelated topics I'd honestly rather you not give me any at all and just not respond to my posts.
:(
Your forgetting a very VERY key difference between Falco and Fox up close. Falco has one of the best overall movesets in the game. His jab outranges ALL of our ground moves and outspeeds ALL bar jab of our ground moves. Falco utilt outprioritizes a ton of our crap. Also his jab flurry is fairly safe, AND his grab hurts pretty bad even at higher percents. Falco also has a much better means of avoiding us all game than fox does simply due to his insanely good phantasm (as opposed to fox's which is WAAAAAAYYYYY worse).

That really is the key difference tho. Falco's gameplay is probably the best runaway game period, so he can literally avoid the ftilt the whole game by never being close (this is minimized somewhat by sheiks crouch and needles), it doesn't help that his close game is pretty on par with ours. Fox on the other hand doesn't have the means to keep us out and pressure us from a distance so he has a much harder time avoiding ftilt.

The game isn't all about infinites, its also about how easy it is to land them. IC's infinites are hard to get cause their grab range is terrible, and they have to both be present when it happens. Its also about how easy it is to execute them. Our tilt lock on fox is stupid easy same as pikas CG, tilt lock on falco is much harder (people question if it is infact guaranteed).

Also Pika CG IS a guaranteed death on us if the pikachu knows what they are doing, and if they aren't very technical its just a 50/50 as to whether we die or not. Pika CG SHOULD be killing sheik everytime we get grabbed (below 50% obv.)
 

Judo777

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#53
The pikachu's I play cg until upsmash then try to get me with the thunder(which I avoid everyonce in a while). Is there another way for pikachu to end the cg?
Yea pika has 3 options. CG from 0-90 or w/e. After that he has 3 choices. 1 being usmash, this doesn't kill us inless he lands the thunder which is easily DIed away from. 2 (this is where the 50/50 comes in) buffer an fsmash. If the pika buffers it properly it is unavoidable UNLESS you DI the throw downward. If it lands chances are you are dying because you shouldn't be too far from the edge of the stage. If you DI it down, and infact get usmashed instead..... the thunder is more than likely going to be unavoidable at that point (sheiks airspeed is bad).

Option 3 aka the real one that always kills us is to just footstol us out of dthrow then QA lock (even just once) for a charged fsmash/thunder/what ever pika wants. That is completely unavoidable and ESAM says he can do it everytime so we SHOULD be dying from a grab everytime.
 

BRoomer
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#54
nair too. I didn't know about the QA lock out of footstoll, I remember people trying to do it to me years ago though but I figured it couldn't be done I guess...
/shrug

that is really powerful.

however I digress. fox and falco aren't similar matchup they are similar dificulties. link and ganno naren't similar match ups, we still win the pretty well.
fox and falco are fundamentally different. fox does not apply presure like falco I understand this. however falco DOES get locked to insane percents thats the key similarity. fox has tools to avoid ftilt, things like shield being the biggest ones. that isn't the whole match up for fox just liike it isn't for falco and wolf.

just like the grabs aren't in the IC and Pika match ups.
 

Renki

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#55
I think we have a solid advantage on Fox, but sometimes I do feel that our advantage on fox is a bit exaggerated. As <3 said, Fox does have the tools to at least avoid f-tilt for a period of time. If Fox plays extremely carefully, f-tilt can be avoided(though this scenario is somewhat unrealistic). It's similar to our matchup with ICs. It can be done, but it's extremely taxing on mental energy and patience.


I don't think Falco is easier than Fox, but Falco does get locked from like 30-80 or something like that(can't remember the exact numbers.) We still can give it to Falco pretty hard, but he does pressure us a lot better than Fox.
 

Pwneroni

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#59
I think he may mean that the Sheik boards exaggerate their buffs and belittle or just plain don't know other characters' metagames. Key word being "maybe".
 

Judo777

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#66
Marth is a broken character, the man has one bad MU in the game. The only reason people do bad with him are because hes hard to master, and a lot of people who use him aren't as good as they like to think they are.
But marth has a ton of even MU's from lower tier chars. Sheik Marth isn't even far from even. But DK, Rob, TL and Wolf. Not to mention of the 3 characters that marth loses to D3 is one of them, and D3 is probably THE EASIEST character to second so hes got that goin against him too. Every character that gets hurt badly by D3 has a much larger handicap for that reason.
 

#HBC | Scary

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#70
Sure, there's really aggro Marth and he's really easy to deal with. Just make sure you don't press you're advantages too far or you will get punished.

There's campy/defensive, this one is annoying. You're gonna have to bring your powershield to this fight. That and patience because they'll be using every bit of range that they have to keep you out. Needles are important in this battle.

Those are really the two styles incan think of right now. Campy Marth is predictable but it's boring because you know what he's gonna do for the whole match; however, it's still pretty effective.
 
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#71
question.. what is your avatar of?

and yea the only times that i win against a legit marth is if he decides to go aggro.. the campy defensive marth is troublesome for me.. like i need to remember things like 2 fairs are coming my way and to sheild the entire dancing blade (sideb) else i'm tilting all day waiting for an up b to approach me. at least tourney wise i haven't won against a good marth.
 

Judo777

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#72
question.. what is your avatar of?

and yea the only times that i win against a legit marth is if he decides to go aggro.. the campy defensive marth is troublesome for me.. like i need to remember things like 2 fairs are coming my way and to sheild the entire dancing blade (sideb) else i'm tilting all day waiting for an up b to approach me. at least tourney wise i haven't won against a good marth.
Ive found that marth just requires you to focus really hard on the approach. But its really really hard to wall without a pattern or some kind so try and find it. The important thing is keep track of ur shield the whole game because Dancing balde is the only thing you have to worry about up close. If marth uses every followup immediately you can block the whole thing and punish. If he pumps it at all you can shield grab it. If he is walling you with fair try and PS them as you run in or better yet hit him as he land with needles to mess up his rythme. Its a task but once you get marth offstage we can hurt him badly.

I think hes easier to approach than olimar, and I'm really good at that MU.
 
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#73
Ive found that marth just requires you to focus really hard on the approach. But its really really hard to wall without a pattern or some kind so try and find it. The important thing is keep track of ur shield the whole game because Dancing balde is the only thing you have to worry about up close. If marth uses every followup immediately you can block the whole thing and punish. If he pumps it at all you can shield grab it. If he is walling you with fair try and PS them as you run in or better yet hit him as he land with needles to mess up his rythme. Its a task but once you get marth offstage we can hurt him badly.

I think hes easier to approach than olimar, and I'm really good at that MU.
what do you mean by pumping? and i keep forgetting to powersheild... like... at least until recently i just play this matchup like i do any other match up... and it doesnt' work lol gotta remember the powersheild... every match up is winnable!!!!
 

Judo777

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#76
what do you mean by pumping? and i keep forgetting to powersheild... like... at least until recently i just play this matchup like i do any other match up... and it doesnt' work lol gotta remember the powersheild... every match up is winnable!!!!
By pump it i mean when he dancing blades the move has 4 hits. If he uses all 4 back to back as fast as possible you can shield the whole thing (even the low finish with multi hits) but if he pumps it ur shield might not last the whole duration. If he does however pump it and not use every hit ASAP we can shield grab between swings.

@Ed do you play SSF4? I have a pretty legit Ibuki in that game.
 

#HBC | Scary

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#77
I'm no good at it but I play Ibuki and Dan decently lol.

Heading to a tourney this weekend at last! See how this goes.

Also, when I have a laptop again, I'll flame the MU chart eventually.
 
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#80
i don't consider myself good at it though. i mean sure i'll be on a winning streak w/ friends but when i go to a tourney hosting brawl/ssf4 they do all this technical **** like focus cancel blahblah
 
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